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The Custodes stratagem Fortress of Willpower states that when a Custodes unit is targeted by a successfully manifested psychic power on a 4+ it is negated. Since Smite affects the nearest enemy unit within 18", one could argue that it doesn't "target" a unit since it forces a target, but on the other hand you could argue it does target a unit regardless of whether or not your opponent gets to choose it or not. Can Fortress of Willpower be used to negate Smite?

Can you provide the source for where you think smite cannot "target" a unit?

The argument I've seen is that since Smite cannot manually target enemy units and forces you to use it on the nearest visible enemy unit within 18", it doesn't "target" units. "Targeting" in this case meaning being able to freely select the target of a psychic power, but as I mentioned before, that wording can be left up to interpretation.

You cannot target specific characters or models with a spell, unless it's friendly. I honestly have never heard of what you are talking about. Smite can be blocked by the Custodes strat. It's a spell. It has nothing to do with what it is targeting.

It is targeted by smite you are just limited in only being able to select one target unless you have a modifier that says otherwise like inquisitor draxus

You can almost never freely select in 40k if you have a model with a heavy bolter their would be models that can't be targeted as characters or that have special rules or are out if range or are out of line of sight you are still targetting if only one unit of the opponents army meets the requirements to be a valid target as might be the case with grenades for example

Not necessarily true, spells like Doom that lets you target any enemy unit within 24" is an example. I agree with you though, I feel like Smite should be able to be negated since it forces a target, regardless of whether or not your opponent is able to choose the target or not.

There is no target selection for smite. You manifest smite, and then the closest enemy unit within 18" and visible to the psyker suffers d3 MW. RAW, the stratagem cant be used against smite.

Fortress of Willpower
Use this Stratagem in your opponent’s Psychic phase, when an ADEPTUS CUSTODES unit from your army is selected as the target of a Psychic power that was successfully manifested this turn. Roll one D6, adding 1 to the result if that unit is a CUSTODIAN WARDENS unit; on a 4+ that psychic power has no effect.

Smite
Smite has a warp charge value of 5. Add 1 to the warp charge value of this psychic power for each other attempt that has been made to manifest this power by a unit from your army in this phase, whether that attempt was successful or not. If manifested, the closest enemy unit within 18" of and visible to the psyker suffers D3 mortal wounds. If the result of the Psychic test was 11 or more, that unit suffers D6 mortal wounds instead.

Their is no selection their is a target

U02dah4 wrote:
Their is no selection their is a target

Exactly, there is no selection, which is a requirement for the stratagem.

I'm confused. Picking a unit to cast the spell on is not "targeting that unit"? Can I get a rules source that defines targeting?

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Their is no selection their is a target

Exactly, there is no selection, which is a requirement for the stratagem.

Sorry I worded that answer poorly their is a selection of a target however their is only one valid selection of target

So in practice their is no meaningfull selection

But from a gaming perspective their is a selection of a target so the stratagem can trigger

Again a heavy bolter with only one target in range and line of sight is still selecting a target even if they have no other options

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm confused. Picking a unit to cast the spell on is not "targeting that unit"? Can I get a rules source that defines targeting?

For Psychic powers I'm not sure there is such a definition. Regardless, your second sentence is moot because Smite doesn't allow you to pick the unit to cast the power against. The affected unit is always the closest visible within 18". Unless there's some specific meaning to the word "target" in relation to Psychic powers I don't think Smite would count as a targeted power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Their is no selection their is a target

Exactly, there is no selection, which is a requirement for the stratagem.

Sorry I worded that answer poorly their is a selection of a target however their is only one valid selection of target

So in practice their is no meaningfull selection

But from a gaming perspective their is a selection of a target so the stratagem can trigger

Again a heavy bolter with only one target in range and line of sight is still selecting a target even if they have no other options

I don't think your last two sentences are correct/relevant. Smite seems pretty clear that you don't select a target. There are conditions for what is affected but not a selected target. Theoretically you seem to be able to cast Smite without anyone in range, unlike a power that requires a specific target. Your Heavy Bolter example is not analogous. The reason you need to select a target is so you can proceed with the attack sequence since point two in the list of bullet points for firing a weapon requires a target unit to be selected. There's no such requirement for the Psychic phase.

U02dah4 wrote:

But from a gaming perspective their is a selection of a target so the stratagem can trigger

No, there isnt. No target is selected for smite.

If there is a game where Arhiman is surrounded by three equally distanced (6") ork warbosses, and Smite isn't a targeted spell, how do you decide which unit gets targeted with a Smite? I mean obviously there has to be an element of choice in the spell, as there are instances where multiple units are the exact same distance from the caster, right?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If there is a game where Arhiman is surrounded by three equally distanced (6") ork warbosses, and Smite isn't a targeted spell, how do you decide which unit gets targeted with a Smite? I mean obviously there has to be an element of choice in the spell, as there are instances where multiple units are the exact same distance from the caster, right?

The core rules for equidistant units tell us the player controlling the Psyker selects which unit is closest for the purposes of resolving that rule. There could be an argument that this specific instance counts as selecting a target, though I don't think it's clear one way or the other. Even if we decide this is a case of a target being selected, it doesn't change the situation when you don't have equidistant units. The fact one situation could be argued to be "selecting a target" doesn't mean all instances of using Smite count as selecting a target.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If there is a game where Arhiman is surrounded by three equally distanced (6") ork warbosses, and Smite isn't a targeted spell, how do you decide which unit gets targeted with a Smite? I mean obviously there has to be an element of choice in the spell, as there are instances where multiple units are the exact same distance from the caster, right?

Orks dont have access to fortress of willpower so this is irrelevant.

 p5freak wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If there is a game where Arhiman is surrounded by three equally distanced (6") ork warbosses, and Smite isn't a targeted spell, how do you decide which unit gets targeted with a Smite? I mean obviously there has to be an element of choice in the spell, as there are instances where multiple units are the exact same distance from the caster, right?

Orks dont have access to fortress of willpower so this is irrelevant.

You're really being that pedantic?

My opinion is that Smite would be affected by FoW. You do target a unit with Smite, but you're given restrictions on what you can target, in this case the closest visible unit within 18".

This isnt MtG guys. GW didnt go into lawyer mode when writing the rules and we already know there are issues.


Does the player select a target for smite? no

Smite itself chooses the target for its effect in its wording.

The custodes strat still works.

A target for smite is selected but you only have one choice the custodes strat works

 Valkyrie wrote:

My opinion is that Smite would be affected by FoW. You do target a unit with Smite, but you're given restrictions on what you can target, in this case the closest visible unit within 18".

Please quote where in the smite rule it says that you target a unit with smite. The word target is nowhere in that rule, neither is something similar.

As potentially stupid as it sounds, I have to side with the "Smite doesn't target" side. I just re-read the rules for Psychic Powers and Smite, and nowhere in either of them does anything related to the word "target" appear.

I think, in this case, Smite does not target a unit; it affects a unit, which is semantically different enough to make it function differently.

Removed - Rule #1 If 5 SCs on bikes are surrounding arhiman, all equally distant, how do you decide where the Smite Lands? You have to choose which to cast it on, so it can be targeted. You have to be able to "target" smite incase there are multiple units all in the same distance from the caster, otherwise the game completely breaks . Both players just stop playing and call it a draw? Well, now I know how to never lose against Psyker armies....

MEASURING DISTANCES

If a rule refers to the closest unit or model, and two or more are
equidistant, then the player who is controlling the unit that is using
the rule in question selects which unit is the closest for the purposes
of resolving that rule.

If two or more custodes units are at the same distance to the psyker (i will ignore that thats actually impossible), the stratagem would work against smite. Select isnt the same as target, but its close enough for me.

While I can see how you can end up with the interpretation that "Smite doesn't target units (except maybe when there are units equidistant from eachother) and thus FoW can't be used"... I very much have to disagree. The arguement that "Smite doesn't use the word target anywhere" doesn't hold up, as very few psychic powers use target either, it's almost always just "select". The only grounds is that "Smite doesn't say select either, it's always just the cloest unit", which is shaky at best as it's a forced selection, and in the scenario where units are equidistant you have to select a unit anyway.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
How can you be this obtuse?

I could equally ask why you don't seem to bother engaging with the points other people make in YMDC threads? You don't seem to be able to distinguish between what the rules say and what you think they should say...

If 5 SCs on bikes are surrounding arhiman, all equally distant, how do you decide where the Smite Lands? You have to choose which to cast it on, so it can be targeted. You have to be able to "target" smite incase there are multiple units all in the same distance from the caster, otherwise the game completely breaks . Both players just stop playing and call it a draw? Well, now I know how to never lose against Psyker armies....

...such as here. This has been addressed above. Have you read that point? There may be an argument for Smite to be targeted *in this specific case*. But the general rules for Smite do not use the word target, or any synonym. In contrast, taking the Xenopurge Discipline as a completely random example, it has 5 powers that specifically use the phrase "select one enemy/friendly unit". Smite is worded differently so it's not a huge leap of logic to assume it works differently.

You'd also do well not to attribute intent to anybody's answers. Outside of probably one poster here I think most people are capable of coming to compromises during a game to keep things moving. The purpose of YMDC is to sort out those kind of contentious issues away from the table, to be better prepared to deal with them next time they show up. It doesn't always succeed at that goal and sometimes you get some fairly silly arguments here. You'll have to judge for yourself what those are.

They dont need to say target though as very few psychic powers say target.

When a unit is selected, or effected by a psychic power, IT IS a target of the psychic power.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
They dont need to say target though as very few psychic powers say target.

When a unit is selected, or effected by a psychic power, IT IS a target of the psychic power.

Citation needed. It is AFFECTED by the psychic power... is it targeted? What says so?

 Eihnlazer wrote:
They dont need to say target though as very few psychic powers say target.

When a unit is selected, or effected by a psychic power, IT IS a target of the psychic power.

That's an assertion, not proof. I'd argue the way Smite is worded it specifically doesn't target anything. Contrast Smite's wording with how powers that are targeted are worded and you'll note the two sets of wording are very different.

For me it's yet another example of GW's shoddy rules writing because every competent designer would define these terms properly but alas, here we are.

Not true as evidence by draxus shang ability which clearly selects plus if it doent t
Argentina how do you know what unit it effects

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Their is no selection their is a target

Exactly, there is no selection, which is a requirement for the stratagem.

There is a selection, even though the selection is automatic based upon the requirements of Smite.