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I am an outsider to Chaos Marines, having only fought them with my Orks, BTs and Tyranids but Chosen always felt like a letdown compared to my various elite choices, particularly with my BTs.

I honestly think that CSM should be among the scariest match ups for my BTs, or any other loyalist marines. I genuinely wish that GW would drop a dedicated Chosen Kit to make them THE Veteran Space Marine, simply because they would range from Heresy Vets to guys who may not be that ancient but would still out experience the Veterans of the majority of space marine chapters.

As a bit of a though experiment, would a squad of 5-10 guys with something along the lines of the below statline to demonstrate that these guys while not terminators are the best marines in a given Warband.
M6 WS 2+. BS 3+. Str 4 T4, A3 W2 LD 9 SV 2+
Point them around 25pts for their basic kit which would be Chainswords, a trademarkium bolter with a similar statline to a Special Issue Bolt gun but with standard 24 inch range and bolt pistol. Let them take the standard selection of extra special and power weapons depending on how the Chaos Player wants to outfit them, but either give them a bonus to a nearby unit, such as granting it a single reroll to hit/wound, or some sort of other minor bonus to represent these guys being one step from being Chaos Lords themselves.

If they were generous enough, even expanding the wargear options to include Kai Guns or an ectoplasma gun. Something that lets them take on Gravis type troops handily. They should be the go to unit for cutting up any given space marine unit, if they are built for it. Thoughts?

One way I wouldn't hate doing what you suggest is via Stratagems like the World Eaters Terminator Stratagem, Emperor's Children perfectly armoured Chosen for the 2+ Sv, Alpha Legion Chosen with a Morale boost aura to lead cells of Cultists.

I don't think Chosen need to be more elite than SM Veterans. Trademarkium bolters are unnecessary when you have combi-bolters. There is also the Rubrics and Noise Marines for dakka veterans. Obviously they should get their second wound like all power-armoured Astartes.

I figure combi-meltas are about as good as you're gonna get for dealing with gravis. Giving them a S5 AP-2 3D weapon wouldn't be a bad idea, but I like the idea of adding a new daemonic weapon option to them more on a thematic level than a gameplay level.

I don't think Chosen should be one step from Chaos Lord, that's Exalted Champions, Chosen are between Exalted Champions and regular CSM. Zerkers also exist if you want melee veterans, so the third attack and 2+ WS is a bad idea unless the extra attack came with a loss of hateful assault and the 2+ WS is a bad idea unless SM Veterans get it as well.

So many issues have been made because of special treatment of CSM or SM, they should just be treated the same, one should not have a bazillion more rules or stratagems or vastly better stats than the other. More types of Possessed and Obliterator-level dudes and some more Daemon engines would be my favourite way of levelling the playing field with all the new Primaris SM.

Heavy Intercessors but not Scouts being Troops is just a blatant GW marketing ploy and exactly the kind of thing I hate.

Change that 2+ save to a 3+, because Chosen are CSM veterans in power armour, not terminator armour, repeal the silly limit of only having combi-bolters on the first 5 guys, but limit combi-weapons to only every 3rd Chosen to prevent spamming plasma, melta, etc, and make them a troops choice for the Undivided Legions just like Berzerkers, Noise Marines, etc are for the God-specific Legions and you're idea for Chosen should be good.

They should just be the standard troop choice for CSM. That alone partly solves the problem.

 vict0988 wrote:
One way I wouldn't hate doing what you suggest is via Stratagems like the World Eaters Terminator Stratagem, Emperor's Children perfectly armoured Chosen for the 2+ Sv, Alpha Legion Chosen with a Morale boost aura to lead cells of Cultists.

I don't think Chosen need to be more elite than SM Veterans. Trademarkium bolters are unnecessary when you have combi-bolters. There is also the Rubrics and Noise Marines for dakka veterans. Obviously they should get their second wound like all power-armoured Astartes.

I figure combi-meltas are about as good as you're gonna get for dealing with gravis. Giving them a S5 AP-2 3D weapon wouldn't be a bad idea, but I like the idea of adding a new daemonic weapon option to them more on a thematic level than a gameplay level.

I don't think Chosen should be one step from Chaos Lord, that's Exalted Champions, Chosen are between Exalted Champions and regular CSM. Zerkers also exist if you want melee veterans, so the third attack and 2+ WS is a bad idea unless the extra attack came with a loss of hateful assault and the 2+ WS is a bad idea unless SM Veterans get it as well.

So many issues have been made because of special treatment of CSM or SM, they should just be treated the same, one should not have a bazillion more rules or stratagems or vastly better stats than the other. More types of Possessed and Obliterator-level dudes and some more Daemon engines would be my favourite way of levelling the playing field with all the new Primaris SM.

Heavy Intercessors but not Scouts being Troops is just a blatant GW marketing ploy and exactly the kind of thing I hate.

the stratagems are literally the worst way of going about it, they are not granular enough, simply put far to restricted in most cases and simply put clunky.
And as it inevitably will be pointed out to you, chaos marines don't all do daemons.

Not Online!!! wrote:
...as it inevitably will be pointed out to you, chaos marines don't all do daemons.

Not all legions need anything more than 2W Chosen. I don't see what's granular about giving Chosen 3A WS2+. Using the same models for several datasheets is clunkier, I don't see an elegant solution.

 vict0988 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
...as it inevitably will be pointed out to you, chaos marines don't all do daemons.

Not all legions need anything more than 2W Chosen. I don't see what's granular about giving Chosen 3A WS2+. Using the same models for several datasheets is clunkier, I don't see an elegant solution.

The best case would be, that you'd get an upgrade sprue and the rules /pts for any type of chosen really.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
...as it inevitably will be pointed out to you, chaos marines don't all do daemons.

Not all legions need anything more than 2W Chosen. I don't see what's granular about giving Chosen 3A WS2+. Using the same models for several datasheets is clunkier, I don't see an elegant solution.

The best case would be, that you'd get an upgrade sprue and the rules /pts for any type of chosen really.

Well, I'll see ya in 13th edition

Note, I while brain storming this idea, I was thinking that the best way to go about this is concurrent to bumping up chosen, was also to split CSM into a high and low quality unit, one to represent something very similar to BT Crusaders, and the other to essentially Primaris tier, in terms of damage output. That was inelegantly put but essentially a way to represent new fresh face Chaos Astartes and the other to represent seasoned veterans with Chosen being essentially a tier above those Vets in terms of Wargear, experience and stats but paying for it with points. The current chosen entry would be a good starting point for the "Vet CSM" while the new one I'm proposing simply be the pinnacle of power armored elites for Chaos Astartes, outside the various roles occupied by the Cult Marines, who should, unit wise be better than them at their niche role, or at least more efficient points wise.

With the 2+ armor save being essentially analogous to the old artificer armor I remember from previous editions as a wargear option. I'm honestly willing to drop it, but considering the absolute lack of storm shields in chaos for reasons, I figured that them having access to a higher quality armor, with whatever fluff you want to use to justify it, being a wonder made by Dark Mechanicus adepts, daemon infused armor as a counterpoint to a Daemon weapon or simply a masterwork suit of powerarmor.

Reintroducing the old Chosen rule of "they get a free USR from this list" would be beneficial. While we don't have USRs anymore, we could implement something like the following:

When this unit is added to your list you may choose one of the following rules to apply to this unit:
Breachers: May reroll wound rolls against Vehicles and Monsters.
Slayers: May ignore Look Out Sir.
Butchers: An unmodified 6 to wound in the Fight Phase causes an additional Mortal Wound.
Rangers: Ranged weapons in this unit gain an additional point of Ap

This is just a quick example I came up with so it'll almost certainly need tweaking, but could be a good place to start when giving Chosen their own character/uniqueness.

 vict0988 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
...as it inevitably will be pointed out to you, chaos marines don't all do daemons.

Not all legions need anything more than 2W Chosen. I don't see what's granular about giving Chosen 3A WS2+. Using the same models for several datasheets is clunkier, I don't see an elegant solution.

Keeping the current stats but adding 1W would be fine, if Chosen are moved to troops. However, if they're expected to remain in the Elites slot they need something more, as right now they're eclipsed by terminators.

And as Not Online points out, not every Legion is a bunch of power armoured cultists. You can't fix the whole CSM faction by throwing more daemons and mutants at it, as that doesn't represent every Legion. Stop trying to make every Legion the Black Legion.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
...as it inevitably will be pointed out to you, chaos marines don't all do daemons.

Not all legions need anything more than 2W Chosen. I don't see what's granular about giving Chosen 3A WS2+. Using the same models for several datasheets is clunkier, I don't see an elegant solution.

Keeping the current stats but adding 1W would be fine, if Chosen are moved to troops. However, if they're expected to remain in the Elites slot they need something more, as right now they're eclipsed by terminators.

Perhaps OP's unit could be called Infernal Champions with a unit size of 2-5 or something like that and then put (2W but otherwise unchanged) Chosen in Troops as Gadzilla suggested.

The distinction between Troops and Elites is completely bonkers, there is no way Chosen and Scouts should be Elites while Heavy Intercessors remain Troops. The galaxy has 100.000 Scouts, probably as many Chosen, a couple of thousand Heavy Intercessors at most, probably only something in the low hundreds, Custodes pose a similar problem but they at least have the excuse of not having cheap models at all, but they all get ObSec so I don't think making Custodian Guard etc. into Elites would kill the faction. One of my suggestions I'd like to have playtested is a rework of detachments and battlefield roles, with vehicles and monsters being removed entirely from Elites and all Troops over 10 pts becoming Elites and then redesign the detachment system around this new paradigm.

I don't see a problem with Chosen being inferior to Terminators. I think Stratagems are an easy way to elevate Chosen for the few Chapters that need a unit of extra badass Chosen because Terminators are less their thing. I could see Night Lords having a +1 Atk Stratagem for Raptors as a sort of Raptor Chosen unit.

I'm also not against the better WS, back when I wrote my SM and CSM fandexes I gave their HQ and Elites better WS and BS, but with those systems having been truncated (no WS/BS 6+) some of the eliteness of units has to be shown through better weapons, so it's not like I think unobtanium bolters are an automatically bad idea, just not for Chosen because they can get combi-bolters. I don't think limiting combi-weapons to 1/3 is a good idea, instead, just allow everyone to take one, people that take squads of more than 5 per squad have to be a minority anyway right?

Scouts were moved to Elites because people whined about Scouts being used over Tactical Marines and instead of fixing the problem...well they didnt.

I really do think that chosen should be optimized for close combat overall, with 3 attacks on the profile. Honestly every actual Astarte should have 2 attacks minimum (I’m looking at you tac squads). Bringing back extra USR’S on chosen would be cool to highlight their prowess and cunning learned from fighting their loyalist brethren and the guard, often without the sort of infrastructure and support the heretic astarte’s foes get. Not to mention the cunning and guile required to climb the ranks to the point of being a chosen... maybe having the 6” redeploy, an extra inch on the charge, or possibly some god or legion specifics... honestly chosen are exactly what marines should be, and chosen should be slightly more elite. I think current marine squads should be as they currently stand a single point per model cheaper, and maybe to capture the fluff of newly inducted chaos space marines should be even cheaper and have worst BS/WS and options. Chaos is still having an identity crisis with options to satisfy neither elite veterans of the long war nor war bands comprising mostly fresh traitors and those drafted from, well the various pools various war bands draw from to create new chaos space marines... and we are stuck with the worst of both worlds. I say pick one piss the other side off and get on with it, then start advocating for representation for the other side on the tabletop... stop having this discussion of “but this doesn’t fit my vision of chaos space marines in it!” Let’s just be cool with GW finally picking one side to rep instead of neither...

There's no reason for gw to need to "pick a side" to represent CSM, considering we once had a codex which allowed you to build an army compromised of either Astartes inferior to loyalists, or elite veterans superior to them, as well as going "all in" on daemonic stuff or going the "ancient warriors using archaic weaponry" route. And between our codex and fw options we have the model support to handle any of those as well, though a few more things would be nice, including either an actual kit for Chosen or a conversion sprue for them that works with the current CSM kit.

I like the idea of giving chosen a "special ability slot" and a list of options to fill it with.

So by default, chosen would basically be normal marines with more weapon options, maybe with slightly better stats. And then you apply an ability from a list. Something like...

* Shadow Ops: The unit may deepstrike and may reroll to-hit rolls of 1 and failed charge rolls on the turn it arrives from reserves.
* Unholy Cybernetics: Gain +1 Toughness and Strength.
* Weaponized Mutations: Each model in the unit gains a mutation weapon that either makes a normal WS Strength 4 attack or a WS 4+ Strength 5 AP -1 attack.
* Incomparable Duelists: Enemies suffer -1 to hit this unit in the fight phase. On an unmodified to-hit roll of 1, the enemy unitsuffers a mortal wound on a 4+.

The list could go on. Basically, let chosen have some flavorful rules that would be too strong or too busy if they appeared all over the army. IF you've ever read a BL novel about a squad of CSM that were just a bit more powerful or special than their peers (Sons of the Hydra and Shroud of Night come to mind), then that squad would be your Chosen.

I like that. But maybe instead of deep strike, Shadow Ops should give Chosen Infiltrate, because that's something they used to have, even back in 2nd when they were "Veteran Chaos Space Marines". Don't know why gw took it away.

Dunno. Not optimistic GW will do much to improve Chosen, either they will be too expensive or deeply flawed. Being an elites choice doesn't do them any favors.

Aside from Chosen, CSMs have many 'elite' infantry units.

- Possessed
- Berzerkers
- Plague Marines
- Rubric Marines
- Noise Marines

The real issue is with carving out a niche for each. As it stands, each one is expensive, slightly outclassed by Loyalist options, and not very effective against much beyond MEQ. You need auras / psychic powers / delivery options / Stratagems / Legion traits for them to pull their weight, most of which makes them dependent on some other unit (sort of like a tax for taking them.)

As much as I'd like to hope a new Codex would help, I'm not sure there are easy solutions to make them interesting again. Chosen are not going to suddenly become our Heavy Intercessors, we don't really have anything that competes with that unit.

Which is why Slayer-Fan and myself suggested they be moved to troops. As elites they're just a way to spam special weapons, but as troops they'd be an improvement over basic CSM, and give us troops that can compete with intercessors. Not sure what our best answer to heavy Intercessors would be though.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Which is why Slayer-Fan and myself suggested they be moved to troops. As elites they're just a way to spam special weapons, but as troops they'd be an improvement over basic CSM, and give us troops that can compete with intercessors. Not sure what our best answer to heavy Intercessors would be though.

Not everything needs to be an answer to Heavy Intercessors. Their durability is off the charts but they hit like wet noodles, ESPECIALLY in melee.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Which is why Slayer-Fan and myself suggested they be moved to troops. As elites they're just a way to spam special weapons, but as troops they'd be an improvement over basic CSM, and give us troops that can compete with intercessors. Not sure what our best answer to heavy Intercessors would be though.

Not everything needs to be an answer to Heavy Intercessors. Their durability is off the charts but they hit like wet noodles, ESPECIALLY in melee.

Agreed.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Which is why Slayer-Fan and myself suggested they be moved to troops. As elites they're just a way to spam special weapons, but as troops they'd be an improvement over basic CSM, and give us troops that can compete with intercessors. Not sure what our best answer to heavy Intercessors would be though.

Not everything needs to be an answer to Heavy Intercessors. Their durability is off the charts but they hit like wet noodles, ESPECIALLY in melee.

Agreed.

That's mostly why I would NEVER run them as anything other than Ultramarines but that's a whole different topic.

I mean just splitting CSM into two unit entries to represent bulk made CSM or vet CSM would probably fix a lot of options for Chaos, along with adding those various take 1 upgrades to certain units to represent some warbands or legions going into mutants/daemons, others diversifying their conventional weapons with others, or investing heavily into skilled operatives for various duties.

Thus you could represent a broad range of CSM types with three unit entries ranging from mass produced, crap marines (relatively) to a handful of elite specialists trained for specific roles.

If space marines can get 6 troops choices, some of which are literally just a wargear choice difference, Assault vs regular intercessors, then Chaos should get some variety too.

panzerfront14 wrote:
I mean just splitting CSM into two unit entries to represent bulk made CSM or vet CSM would probably fix a lot of options for Chaos, along with adding those various take 1 upgrades to certain units to represent some warbands or legions going into mutants/daemons, others diversifying their conventional weapons with others, or investing heavily into skilled operatives for various duties.

Thus you could represent a broad range of CSM types with three unit entries ranging from mass produced, crap marines (relatively) to a handful of elite specialists trained for specific roles.

If space marines can get 6 troops choices, some of which are literally just a wargear choice difference, Assault vs regular intercessors, then Chaos should get some variety too.

Honestly I don't like Marines having that many. If you consolidate unit entries you can get:
1. Intercessor/Tactical/Assault
2. Tacticool (CoD Marines)
3. Scouts
4. Heavy Intercessors
Chosen are HELLA flexible. So with Cultists and then Legion stereotype Troops, that leaves enough room for taking care of most issues.

panzerfront14 wrote:
I mean just splitting CSM into two unit entries to represent bulk made CSM or vet CSM would probably fix a lot of options for Chaos, along with adding those various take 1 upgrades to certain units to represent some warbands or legions going into mutants/daemons, others diversifying their conventional weapons with others, or investing heavily into skilled operatives for various duties.

Thus you could represent a broad range of CSM types with three unit entries ranging from mass produced, crap marines (relatively) to a handful of elite specialists trained for specific roles.

If space marines can get 6 troops choices, some of which are literally just a wargear choice difference, Assault vs regular intercessors, then Chaos should get some variety too.

You basically just described how Veteran Abilities and Marks worked in 3.5. And I would LOVE that to return, but doubt gw would ever do it. As Slayer-Fan points out, Chosen can do just about anything, IF they keep all of their current equipment options, so could fill the role of multiple loyalist units. Cultists however, judging from their changes in the Death Guard codex, won't be good for much besides screening and filling troops slots. Which is even more reason we need Chosen as a troops choice, just to give us more options.