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Wyldhunt wrote:

 Argive wrote:
How are clawed fiends? Can you use them in soup?

Im no DE player but ive always like the models and was considering getting some OOP metal ones for paintings

That last sentence makes me wonder if you mean clawed fiends (the big gorilla rat things) or khymarae (the quadrupeds that look more like the old warp beasts from the first codex.)

Both seem good in their own ways. Khymarae are as cheap as wyches, hit about as hard, and don't need a transport to quickly get up the table. If you go second, I could see these guys being good for advance + charging at an enemy unit that wandered onto an objective turn 1. They're a lot like wyches with the movement, strength, and toughness drugs but with one fewer attacks. I like them.

I think of clawed fiends as faster, squishier grotesques. They move faster, can be advance + charged just like khymarae, and have a very similar offensive output to a grotesque. However, they're 25 points per dude with a 5+ save, and they look scary across the table. I feel like it might be difficult to keep them alive long enough to be a good investment.

I only own one clawed fiend, but I've used both fiends and khymarae in the past as mobile screens and easy-to-hide objective achievers. They can't perform most actions, so you probably won't put them directly on an objective, BUT they're fast and small enough to hide on the flanks for Engage on All Fronts or linebreaker or to just sprinkle around the table to screen out deepstrikers. If you want to run larger units and actually do damage with them, the Leadership drug on the beastmaster is a must.

Important to note that for both the advance & charge comes from the beastmaster at one use per unit. And then you need to worry about keeping the beastmaster close enough after the charge so they don't auto-fail morale.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Important to note that for both the advance & charge comes from the beastmaster at one use per unit. And then you need to worry about keeping the beastmaster close enough after the charge so they don't auto-fail morale.

True. Although personally, I... kind of just don't worry about failing morale after the beasts hit combat. Khymarae are so squishy that they tend to be pretty much wiped out the first time my opponent attacks them. So if I deliver them into combat and they kill their target, they probably get shot to death on the next turn. If I deliver them into combat and they don't kill the target, there's a good chance that the models left alive are either so bad at melee that I don't have to worry about morale or else good enough at melee that I'm going to lose the unit anyway. There's some middle ground, but I've started to treat morale as a bit of a secondary concern after I hit the enemy. I've found it's more important prior to hitting melee when my opponent is popping some shots at them.

I was sorting of hoping they'd merge the various beasts back into one unit Court of the Archon style. Let razorwings be ablative wounds and volume of attacks, let clawed fiends be the muscle, and let khymarae use their shadowcat walk-through-walls powers to serve as the squad's storm shields.

No need to worry about morale if you just run one nipple monkey. Can't fail morale if you're one model. But what you can do is raise a good good banner with one.

Can you? I don't have my rulebook in front of me, but I thought only infantry could raise banners.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Can you? I don't have my rulebook in front of me, but I thought only infantry could raise banners.

Yea infantry only. You could sneak 3 single bases into the backfield for 1 CP, but you have to wait until turn 3, so otherwise stick them behind obscuring and babysit your own stuff?

Oh god this is so good. You guys must have seen this before me but take bloodbrides, precise killers obsession (Which is shockingly not all-consuming) and take +1 attack combat drug. Take this with as many patrol detachments for wych cult you can since you can take precise killers and any other obsession to count as a different cult. Hit on 2s, every 5 to wound goes through 3 armor and you get a significant blender unit with solid numbers of attacks.

*dark eldar O-noises commence*

Seriously where's the meme where a dude puts the blood of his enemies on his face but with an archon or succubus. MEQs and monsters will be pissed.

I'm gonna use this before they nerf it. They'll probably make it all consuming or something.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I feel like a significant chunk of the playerbsse fundamentally disagrees with GW about how elite a space marine should be.

My troops are sbout 1/2 as expensive as a marine, and equal points can hold their own against equal points of marines.

My elites are about the cost of a marine, but faster, killier, and more fragile.

Thats what I signed up for, thats why im here. I checked the box that said dark eldar, id like to be fast, kill a lot, and be more fragile.

That sounds like how Dark Eldar should play. Am I wrong?

On Archons: is any 65 PPM HQ very good without a warlord trait and/or relic?

Personally, I kind of like where the drukhari are in terms of eliteness. Our mooks are able to pick on the mooks of most armies. Our elites are good at their jobs but are better at bullying ideal targets than engaging in "fair" fights.

65 point HQs can be good for their points without relying on specific relics and warlord traits. Especially if they're support HQs. A company commander is great at what he does for a lot fewer points. A troupe master is both a good beatstick and a good force multiplier. A warlock isn't much of a beatstick, but he packs some of the best support powers in the game. The archon is a bit weird because he's only a mediocre beatstick without relics and warlord traits, but he's also only a mediocre force multiplier because his buffs require he stand around outside a transport and next to any other units that want to get buffed. Compare to the troupemaster who goes from a good beatstick to a better beatstick and is generally pretty comfortable being in the same spot as his troupes.

I dunno, just seems like incubi with extra steps.

....bonus points if you do stimulant innovaters for your second trait so you have the double wych cult meme build. Quadro-drugs!

Yes but it might be cheaper in points and you can get them in addition to incubi.

 alextroy wrote:
Haven't Eldar always been inferior to marines going by their Stat Block? It was always their superior weapons and special rules that made them better in my experience.

Of course. I never said otherwise (though the stat block inferiority is now substantially larger). But the point is that the superior weapons and special rules no longer exist either. Elite Drukhari melee units are about half as powerful (as measured by points) as elite space marine units now, just like non-elite drukhari cost about half what non-elite space marines cost. That didn't used to be the case. In 7th edition a kabalite cost 8 points; a basic marine was 14. Now kabalites cost...drum roll...8 points. The basic space marine now costs 20 (or 18 if you really want to insist the comparison is to a unit that might as well not exist any more for competitive play).

Incubi in 7th cost 20 points a model - more than their space marine equivalent (vets were 18 points a model). They now cost 16 points a model.

DE have become more of a cheap trash faction at the same time that space marines have become hugely more elite than they used to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
[
....fething when, my dude? When was a kabalite not several points cheaper than a marine, an incubi not about the same as a marine, a reaver not a bit more than a marine and a grotesque/clawed fiend/court of the archon member not the rough equivalent of a marine elite? I like painting models, I dont want 16 point kabalites and 30 point incubi. Itd be ridiculously difficult to balance drukhari as a glass cannon faction if there werent more expensive elite infantry running around for them to be able to explode.

See above: in 7th edition. Incubi cost 140% what a marine cost , and kabalites cost 57% what a marine cost; Incubi now cost 80% what a marine costs, while kabalites cost 40%. These are quite huge erosions in value. You're free to say you prefer being a cheap trash faction, but it's inaccurate to act like this is how it's always been.

I think your evaluation scale is wrong. Drukhari aren’t “cheap trash” because their point ratio to Marines has changed. Instead, marines have become more elite. Try comparing your “cheap trash” to non-marines.

Guess it might be time to pull out my gladiators and get them back in shape with the lot that came with Gangs of Commorragh.

I read through it the other day, I don't think it was what was expected, but it did have it's moments. I wish they wouldn't have got rid of the crazy creatures that they had a few iterations back, I still want to put that 3d gladiator pit together with the overhangs, and risers.

Time to get my Ludus Magnus to the table....

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Argive wrote:
How are clawed fiends? Can you use them in soup?

Im no DE player but ive always like the models and was considering getting some OOP metal ones for paintings

That last sentence makes me wonder if you mean clawed fiends (the big gorilla rat things) or khymarae (the quadrupeds that look more like the old warp beasts from the first codex.)

Both seem good in their own ways. Khymarae are as cheap as wyches, hit about as hard, and don't need a transport to quickly get up the table. If you go second, I could see these guys being good for advance + charging at an enemy unit that wandered onto an objective turn 1. They're a lot like wyches with the movement, strength, and toughness drugs but with one fewer attacks. I like them.

I think of clawed fiends as faster, squishier grotesques. They move faster, can be advance + charged just like khymarae, and have a very similar offensive output to a grotesque. However, they're 25 points per dude with a 5+ save, and they look scary across the table. I feel like it might be difficult to keep them alive long enough to be a good investment.

I only own one clawed fiend, but I've used both fiends and khymarae in the past as mobile screens and easy-to-hide objective achievers. They can't perform most actions, so you probably won't put them directly on an objective, BUT they're fast and small enough to hide on the flanks for Engage on All Fronts or linebreaker or to just sprinkle around the table to screen out deepstrikers. If you want to run larger units and actually do damage with them, the Leadership drug on the beastmaster is a must.

Yeah I meant the clawed fiends Aka big purple gorilla looking things

Probably the only DE models I like. If they were plastic Id have a couple by now but bit of a low priority to hunt down in OOP metal.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Argive wrote:
How are clawed fiends? Can you use them in soup?

Im no DE player but ive always like the models and was considering getting some OOP metal ones for paintings

I'll be honest, given your general level of saltiness and negativity I just kind of assumed you were a dark eldar player.

Didn't realise you could ever admit to being wrong about anything.. Fascinating.

I have a ton of Hellions and Scourges, so I am very happy but need some incubi and drahzar.

Not really interested in haemonculous but can see the appeal.

Yesterday my buddy layed the smack down on some Tau & DG so I'm looking forward to tooling mine up.

 alextroy wrote:
I think your evaluation scale is wrong. Drukhari aren’t “cheap trash” because their point ratio to Marines has changed. Instead, marines have become more elite. Try comparing your “cheap trash” to non-marines.

Everything in this game is measured relative to marines, they're half of the game and the poster boys for it. But I'm glad we're now all on the same page that relative strength has indeed changed dramatically, that was my main point. If you want me to amend my statement to "Drukhari are only cheap trash compared to the higher profile half of the game" that's no skin off my back.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I think your evaluation scale is wrong. Drukhari aren’t “cheap trash” because their point ratio to Marines has changed. Instead, marines have become more elite. Try comparing your “cheap trash” to non-marines.

Everything in this game is measured relative to marines, they're half of the game and the poster boys for it. But I'm glad we're now all on the same page that relative strength has indeed changed dramatically, that was my main point. If you want me to amend my statement to "Drukhari are only cheap trash compared to the higher profile half of the game" that's no skin off my back.

Something that might be worth saying out loud: while it's true that marines still make up half the armies in the game, their recent redesign and changes to their statlines has, I think, pushed them more clearly into the "elite" space that they were always theoretically supposed to fill but haven't in a while. For a long while, we compared everything to the meq statline partly because they were both cheaper and less durable than they probably should have been.

Basically, marines were always sort of marketed as an "elite" army, but they kind of weren't. So we compared things like fire warriors and guardsmen to them. Now, we should probably think of them as being more like... a half-step towards being custodes. They're more durable and less numerous, and it's okay that each marine can reliably beat up several of my kabalites.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I think your evaluation scale is wrong. Drukhari aren’t “cheap trash” because their point ratio to Marines has changed. Instead, marines have become more elite. Try comparing your “cheap trash” to non-marines.

Everything in this game is measured relative to marines, they're half of the game and the poster boys for it. But I'm glad we're now all on the same page that relative strength has indeed changed dramatically, that was my main point. If you want me to amend my statement to "Drukhari are only cheap trash compared to the higher profile half of the game" that's no skin off my back.

Define "cheap trash". Incubi will absolutely shred loyalist infantry, including "elites", point for point. And Hellions will mulch MEQ, for less PPM. Neither will be able to absorb as much punishment themselves, but that's the definition of "glass cannon". And why are you comparing points from an edition that never saw a balance pass and is generally regarded as an unbalanced mess?

Incubi are Drukhari's elite infantry, and they're 16 points a model. That's cheap trash. It's very good cheap trash, but it's definitely cheap trash in a game where the game-defining elite infantry models are space marines that run in the 35ish point range, more than double what an incubi costs.

When I say "cheap trash" I don't mean bad, I mean cheap, efficient models that don't stand a chance model for model but are effective because they're pointed low enough that you can throw them into stuff and you don't really care if they're killed in large numbers because everything in your army is similarly expendable cheap trash. Almost everything in Drukhari fits this bill. Incubi certainly do; they're the Drukhari version of Repentia, the gold standard in cheap trash melee hammers.

As much as one would like for space marines to go back to what they were the reality is that GW has decided that they don't want any kind of marine to be that weak anymore.

Marines are a pure elite faction and their elites are elite++ (And I'm talking all kind of marines here, both loyalist and heretic). Theres just no other faction that can thematically compare with them with the exception of Custodes in GW new paradigma.

We could arguee if it is possitive for a game system to have their most "vanilla" and "iconic" faction be an very elite one instead of sitting on the middle as Marines were before, or if Xenos should have their own elite factions (I think the elite xenos should be necrons, and for the most part they made it with the exception of their elites vs marine elites. A Lychguard has nothing to envy to a bladeguard veteran but stuff like terminators with TH/HH are just another beast alltogether). But TBH the same happened in Fantasy: As much as people talked about the empire, the "marines" of fantasy where chaos warriors and high elves, two extremely elite armies with a ton of special rules to ignore (specially high elves) most stuff others had to deal with.

Watched a competitive game yesterday.
Man, Drukhari are beatiful on the table now. Fast, tricky and lethal.
They attack you from any angle and there are no 2 similar threats. They really nailed the freak show theme, and they nailed it on the competitive version of the list!

yukishiro1 wrote:
Incubi are Drukhari's elite infantry, and they're 16 points a model. That's cheap trash. It's very good cheap trash, but it's definitely cheap trash in a game where the game-defining elite infantry models are space marines that run in the 35ish point range, more than double what an incubi costs.

When I say "cheap trash" I don't mean bad, I mean cheap, efficient models that don't stand a chance model for model but are effective because they're pointed low enough that you can throw them into stuff and you don't really care if they're killed in large numbers because everything in your army is similarly expendable cheap trash. Almost everything in Drukhari fits this bill. Incubi certainly do; they're the Drukhari version of Repentia, the gold standard in cheap trash melee hammers.

Perhaps you shouldn't use the word "trash" then. I can see where people may make assumptions about what you mean based on...the word you use.

the_scotsman wrote:
I dunno, just seems like incubi with extra steps.

....bonus points if you do stimulant innovaters for your second trait so you have the double wych cult meme build. Quadro-drugs!

Yeah for a possible 2 attack combat drugs and the boost them with 2 CP so you net yet another 2 attacks per guy. Starts with maybe 4 each but can get at least 8 per guy pretty easily like this. Still hits on 2s and wounds with ap-4 total on 5 or 6.

Dai wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Incubi are Drukhari's elite infantry, and they're 16 points a model. That's cheap trash. It's very good cheap trash, but it's definitely cheap trash in a game where the game-defining elite infantry models are space marines that run in the 35ish point range, more than double what an incubi costs.

When I say "cheap trash" I don't mean bad, I mean cheap, efficient models that don't stand a chance model for model but are effective because they're pointed low enough that you can throw them into stuff and you don't really care if they're killed in large numbers because everything in your army is similarly expendable cheap trash. Almost everything in Drukhari fits this bill. Incubi certainly do; they're the Drukhari version of Repentia, the gold standard in cheap trash melee hammers.

Perhaps you shouldn't use the word "trash" then. I can see where people may make assumptions about what you mean based on...the word you use.

He's doing that on purpose, obviously.

You notice that he listed the point cost for incubi, but omitted the fact that in 7th terminators, the marine elite equivalent, were like 35pts minimum? And also that incubi were absolute unusable overpriced garbage in 7th?

Naw, I'm good, I don't need to have my list building decisions boiled down to toddler level like space marines, who used to be able to field lists that looked like actual coherent military formations with infantry and tanks and transports, but now their models cost so many points they can only field a small pile of dudes fighting on top of a hill like in the old codex cover art. If every elite is 30-35 points, you get like 3 of them in your whole army. Grotesques can hang out at that level, but everything else elite being 15-25 is a much better spot for creating actually interesting 2k lists.

I was salty about marines when a unit with a 30" range gun could handily beat various pure melee-only elite units. if they buff those elite units - like Hellions, Wyches, Incubi, Succubi - so that they can kill those shooting-focused marines in melee, where they should be winning because they're armed only with melee weapons, I'm fine with that. I don't need or want W3 T5 basic eldar that cost 45ppm so I can fill out my HQ and min troops and find out I'm 1000 points done with my 2k point list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I dunno, just seems like incubi with extra steps.

....bonus points if you do stimulant innovaters for your second trait so you have the double wych cult meme build. Quadro-drugs!

Yeah for a possible 2 attack combat drugs and the boost them with 2 CP so you net yet another 2 attacks per guy. Starts with maybe 4 each but can get at least 8 per guy pretty easily like this. Still hits on 2s and wounds with ap-4 total on 5 or 6.

be a man, roll your drugs randomly for every single unit. And also take the stimm addict warlord trait on your succubus for 2 more. roll up to the table with your fething excel spreadsheet and bring enough models that something in your army rolls the all-attacks Fun Yahtzee.

It undoubtedly is moving into a meme, and I can't believe any one-unit spam is the best way to run DE (or any faction) - but I do think you could throw down 100+ wyches and a lot of lists would struggle for what to do with them.

Getting 4 or 5 attacks from a 10 point model is silly. Especially at S4, with AP-1(-2 on 6s). Coupled with M8" with advance and charge and a 4++ in combat? Its becoming quite insane.

Tyel wrote:
It undoubtedly is moving into a meme, and I can't believe any one-unit spam is the best way to run DE (or any faction) - but I do think you could throw down 100+ wyches and a lot of lists would struggle for what to do with them.

Getting 4 or 5 attacks from a 10 point model is silly. Especially at S4, with AP-1(-2 on 6s). Coupled with M8" with advance and charge and a 4++ in combat? Its becoming quite insane.

I mean, I doubt theyd be that tough to deal with. Basically anything at range butchers them and in melee they bounce off anything elite. They're good, but you need to deploy and support them properly or you're just playing "orks but bad."

Foot harlequins arent viable, and harlequins are 4++ all THE time and -1 to wound and your guns count as 6" further away.

Honestly, with a couple of exceptions (e.g. the Archon seems purpose-built to be beaten to death by a Canoness), I think DE are in a reasonable place as far as "eliteness" goes.

You could maybe make an argument for Incubi being 2 wounds or something but I think the current version of them is fine.

Given how DE function, I think if a lot of DE units were closer to Marine costs, you'd really struggle to fit much into lists once you account for the cost of transports.

And while most of our stuff is cheap compared to Marines, I think a lot of it is good enough at its specific role to at least feel appropriately elite.


That said, I don't mind our HQs being less tough than Marine ones, but it really does bother me that an Archon struggles to kill even a single Marine per turn in melee, unless you give him very specific warlord traits and such.


Anyway, as far as eliteness goes, I think it will be more interesting to see what happens to craftworld eldar - especially units like Banshees.

Lots of wracks, though, that's a maybe. 8ppm instead of 10ppm, T5 with a readily available buff, 6++ and 5+ FNP. That's a unit that's ready to go do what big hordes in 9th do: Dance the hora in the middle of the board while securing every objective until you finally manage to wipe them out on turn 4 with an untenable points deficit already in place. They don't deal anywhere near the same amount of damage as wyches, but that's not the point of a horde unit.

Wyches aren't a horde unit, they're a fast lockdown unit whose goal is to shoot up turn 1 in a transport behind obscuring cover, hop out turn 2 and advance and charge into some unit of Hellblasters or Eradicators or Obliterators or whatever that will be not quite wiped by their S3 AP-1 knives, not be able to get through their relatively cheap 4++ saves, and then prevented from falling back with their shardnet and impaler.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Honestly, with a couple of exceptions (e.g. the Archon seems purpose-built to be beaten to death by a Canoness), I think DE are in a reasonable place as far as "eliteness" goes.

If a 65pt hq could fight a 60pt hq effortlessly I don't know how great I'd feel about the general balance state of the game. The canoness requires the archon to take 2.5 shadowfield saves per round, and then once the field is popped she deals 4 damage per round to him, the archon reliably takes 2 wounds off the canoness per round. Realistically, the fight will take 3 rounds (barring a lucky roll with a blast pistol or an unlucky roll with the shadowfield early) and either the archon wins with 1 wound left or the canoness wins with 1 wound left.

That would seem to be what some might call "a balanced outcome". Much better than most character duel setups in the game, anyway, which tend to be resolved purely by who got the charge off first.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I think your evaluation scale is wrong. Drukhari aren’t “cheap trash” because their point ratio to Marines has changed. Instead, marines have become more elite. Try comparing your “cheap trash” to non-marines.

Everything in this game is measured relative to marines, they're half of the game and the poster boys for it. But I'm glad we're now all on the same page that relative strength has indeed changed dramatically, that was my main point. If you want me to amend my statement to "Drukhari are only cheap trash compared to the higher profile half of the game" that's no skin off my back.

Define "cheap trash". Incubi will absolutely shred loyalist infantry, including "elites", point for point. And Hellions will mulch MEQ, for less PPM. Neither will be able to absorb as much punishment themselves, but that's the definition of "glass cannon". And why are you comparing points from an edition that never saw a balance pass and is generally regarded as an unbalanced mess?

yukishiro1 wrote:Incubi are Drukhari's elite infantry, and they're 16 points a model. That's cheap trash. It's very good cheap trash, but it's definitely cheap trash in a game where the game-defining elite infantry models are space marines that run in the 35ish point range, more than double what an incubi costs.

When I say "cheap trash" I don't mean bad, I mean cheap, efficient models that don't stand a chance model for model but are effective because they're pointed low enough that you can throw them into stuff and you don't really care if they're killed in large numbers because everything in your army is similarly expendable cheap trash. Almost everything in Drukhari fits this bill. Incubi certainly do; they're the Drukhari version of Repentia, the gold standard in cheap trash melee hammers.

I really do not see the disagreement between the parts.

Some years ago, point costs between factions were more aligned, as were their capabilities.

Now, all flavors of eldar are outnumbering marines more heavily than in the past. Some are good for their points, but you need more models on the table than with marines. Something similar happens with guard, they aren't terribly bad in terms of damage per point, but now you need more to be equivalent to marines (though guard has other issues).

Having some equivalence in power between models (not equivalently costed point efficient units, but models) requires that "elite" eldar are costed aprox. like "elite marines", and perform at a similar power level (though it can be in different areas). Right now, we have elite eldar is sort of equivalent to marine trooper.

Some people are fine having every other faction become more "horde-like", others think it does not reflect the fluff well, and finally there are also dollars per point considerations.

 vipoid wrote:


That said, I don't mind our HQs being less tough than Marine ones, but it really does bother me that an Archon struggles to kill even a single Marine per turn in melee, unless you give him very specific warlord traits and such.

Based on any non-relic weapon, an Archon does 1.74 wounds to a standard marine in close combat....

Grey40k wrote:


Some people are fine having every other faction become more "horde-like", others think it does not reflect the fluff well, and finally there are also dollars per point considerations.

I personally don't really want every elite choice in any of my codexes to be 30-35pts. Marines don't really have any way to actually field a coherent force in a 2k list, they run out of points after the basic troops and a couple elite units.