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Which is fine according to the fluff.
You shouldn't deploy full companies of marines at a time.

30-40 marines with a bit of vehicle support are an army. That's fine, especially for an army meant to introduce you to the game.

Spoletta wrote:
Which is fine according to the fluff.
You shouldn't deploy full companies of marines at a time.

30-40 marines with a bit of vehicle support are an army. That's fine, especially for an army meant to introduce you to the game.

Sure, it just means they have a lot of toys - the heavy tanks, the auxiliary support units like flyers and anti-aircraft and artillery and such - that are just super super awkward to put on the table.

Every time I see a repulsor across from me, it's almost always the ONLY tank threat in the whole army. so its like "OK, every lascannon and melta goes into that now. Turn 1, poof, pick it up off the table please."

SMs current playstyle in general is ridiculously boring. I 100% do not want it applied to any of the factions I like playing. I want it removed from my Thousand Sons, it sucks that they went from a nice flexible mounted heavy infantry army to a snore-inducing giant blob of power armored dudes that I infiltrate onto the board, roll for turn 1, and if I win it they just shoot 80 bullets and obliterate 33% of the opposing army, who never ever move under any circumstances because to move is to cut my firepower by 75%.

the_scotsman wrote:

I personally don't really want every elite choice in any of my codexes to be 30-35pts. Marines don't really have any way to actually field a coherent force in a 2k list, they run out of points after the basic troops and a couple elite units.

As you say, it is a matter of preference.

Personally, I also like forces that can have a variety of units. But I would prefer for the eldar to have "some" units that "feel elite" on a model to model basis, compared to marines.

For example, aspect warriors should be, in my eyes, warriors that can compete with elite marines per model.

But hey, that's pure preference.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Which is fine according to the fluff.
You shouldn't deploy full companies of marines at a time.

30-40 marines with a bit of vehicle support are an army. That's fine, especially for an army meant to introduce you to the game.

And eldar are supposed to be a dying race of super tech advanced alien. Is that properly captured by the rules?

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, I doubt theyd be that tough to deal with. Basically anything at range butchers them and in melee they bounce off anything elite. They're good, but you need to deploy and support them properly or you're just playing "orks but bad."

Foot harlequins arent viable, and harlequins are 4++ all THE time and -1 to wound and your guns count as 6" further away.

Hmmm. This just makes me wonder "has anyone actually tried massed-foot harlequins". (Probably on TTS or something.) I think the problem there is that regular bladequins are quite anaemic - and ones with special weapons can hit hard but are very expensive, so are no longer all that resilient even with -1 to wound and a 4++.

But it does seem to me most people are not filling their lists with low S, low AP weapons.
Its a fair point that wyches will bounce off 1+ saves though. But I think that's really the only issue. Buckets of S5 AP-1 attacks will do a number on most things.

Tyel wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, I doubt theyd be that tough to deal with. Basically anything at range butchers them and in melee they bounce off anything elite. They're good, but you need to deploy and support them properly or you're just playing "orks but bad."

Foot harlequins arent viable, and harlequins are 4++ all THE time and -1 to wound and your guns count as 6" further away.

Hmmm. This just makes me wonder "has anyone actually tried massed-foot harlequins". (Probably on TTS or something.) I think the problem there is that regular bladequins are quite anaemic - and ones with special weapons can hit hard but are very expensive, so are no longer all that resilient even with -1 to wound and a 4++.

But it does seem to me most people are not filling their lists with low S, low AP weapons.
Its a fair point that wyches will bounce off 1+ saves though. But I think that's really the only issue. Buckets of S5 AP-1 attacks will do a number on most things.

Oh, I do, I love my foot harlequins. But they're in no way a 'tournament quality force" compared to the current vogue of mounted melta-spam clowns.

They're basically a slightly less good version of the meta spoiler ork boyz spam list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey40k wrote:


And eldar are supposed to be a dying race of super tech advanced alien. Is that properly captured by the rules?

Eldar as in craftworld eldar, no. Dark Eldar (IMO anyway) are incredibly well-represented in these rules: because they're NOT a dying race and their super-tech is purpose-built to be cruel, unfair, and vicious.

Any time I decide not to fight a hyper-elite unit and instead scare them to death with the mortal wounds inflicted by phantasm grenade launchers, any time my wyches encircle a shooting unit and hold them hostage in my opponent's shooting phase before finishing them off in their fight phase, any time my Dark Creed and Poisoned Tongue units cause a unit to flee from a failed morale test on a 3+ and score me a ton of secondary victory points, any time my archon passes the saves from some pumped-up HQ with -5 AP and damage 4 without a single scratch and then fights twice to eviscerate him, that's my drukhari performing EXACTLY as I want them to.

The fact that there's a downside to it - that my archon might roll a 1 and get flattened, or my wyches will get annihilated by shooting if I leave them out in the open, or whatever, that's fine. If I had all the crazy power and damage with none of the risk, it wouldn't feel like dark eldar are supposed to feel anyway. They're supposed to fight and die on a razor's edge, because they're not 'oh there's none of them left, if any of them die its an immeasurable tragedy and they have to hold sixteen funerals where a hundred dark eldar weep for weeks on ends and scatter rose petals over the dearly beloved departed..." they're dark eldar, they laugh at the unfortunate fools who were slow and got themselves slaughtered, and they charge in after to demonstrate their superiority and value to their employer.

I like to think that makes them more fun to play against as well. They're what a villain is supposed to be - they have moments where they feel unstoppable and invincible, so when you do beat them it feels like an actual achievement.

Ahhh Scotsman... Think I broke my exalt button!

FWIW I find it hard not to think the codex lets DE "play like DE should". But then to my mind DE never even had that 2nd edition "Eldar are really elite yo" gloss. By comparison to Marines they were a quasi-horde faction from the start.

I will however observe that often this is just a function of power - because playing like you should and falling on your face never "feels" right. This book is incredibly powerful. Almost every unit feels as though it was pointed aggressively. Which is good - because like say DG, you can look at almost any combo and think "...maybe it would work?"

I think the gap between the haves and have nots has however been significantly widened with this codex. How on earth Tau are meant to stand up to this is anyone's guess. I guess that gives me another year to finally paint mine up though. (Was meant to be the lockdown winter project, but... got distracted.)

Preach it, Scotsman

'Saturday morning cartoon villain', till I die

the_scotsman wrote:

Eldar as in craftworld eldar, no. Dark Eldar (IMO anyway) are incredibly well-represented in these rules: because they're NOT a dying race and their super-tech is purpose-built to be cruel, unfair, and vicious. They're what a

That was a very nice response. I am inclined to agree with you.

I also think Eldar are not well represented, I am more on the fence with Dark Eldar. They do seem killy now, I guess we'll have to wait a bit to see how hold up in practice.

Every dex this ed has upped the game. I think when Tau and Eldar get their turn, it will work out.

edit : got covered already

Tyel wrote:
FWIW I find it hard not to think the codex lets DE "play like DE should". But then to my mind DE never even had that 2nd edition "Eldar are really elite yo" gloss. By comparison to Marines they were a quasi-horde faction from the start.

I will however observe that often this is just a function of power - because playing like you should and falling on your face never "feels" right. This book is incredibly powerful. Almost every unit feels as though it was pointed aggressively. Which is good - because like say DG, you can look at almost any combo and think "...maybe it would work?"

I think the gap between the haves and have nots has however been significantly widened with this codex. How on earth Tau are meant to stand up to this is anyone's guess. I guess that gives me another year to finally paint mine up though. (Was meant to be the lockdown winter project, but... got distracted.)

Honestly, I haven't played against tau since 9th dropped so maybe this is just me not realizing how fethed they got by the points changes, but it doesn't seem like it would be...thaaat bad, depending on the matchup and the subfaction they go hard on? DE are really allergic to overwatch and invuln saves, which tau tend to have quite a bit of. When you're at a baseline of "if I get something on melee, I kill it super dead" then getting to shoot me hitting on 5s before I charge in, is better than the usual "die before you get to swing" baseline. Tau having S5 on their basic weaponry also actually helps quite a lot against drukhari stuff, they have an unusual amount of T5 running around.

looking at my own miserably underpowered armies, I would be happier taking on drukhari with my GSC than I would be space marines. No 12" range anti-fun aura on a basic troop/hq unit, no "I get to shoot you when you show up" stratagem, the worst thing about the matchup is just that mining lasers are the only good GSC antitank weapon and boy howdy are drukahri vehicles good against mining lasers. For the most part, GSC against drukhari would be an exercise in stuff charging stuff, and the stuff that gets charged just explodes spectacularly.

I don't know, all this is entirely theoretical in my head, it's tough to imagine any kind of matchup where the person opposing me is playing anything but space marines.Something non-imperial? Utterly inconceivable.

I guess I just look at say GSC and think "how is anything in this roster as good as anything in Codex DE." (Tbf they don't have Ridgerunners....)

I just don't think Tau overwatch will contribute that much. Send some raiders in to eat it on big things like Riptides. Then just charge into anything else. Stuff will die - but by and large you are still going to annihilate anything you touch because compared to modern armies Tau are fragile for their points. Despite some hype for the Montka change facilitating some more movement - I don't think its helping much if at all.

I think for example Serpent's Tongue Kabalites outshoot Fire Warriors now although its a bit debatable on buffs, higher range versus higher movement. People laughed at Kabalites getting that extra attack - but, even though you probably don't expect to ever use it - it results in them being about 4.5~ times as effective as Fire Warriors in assault for the points. (I'm not saying you'll spam kabalites any more than Tau spam fire warriors - but its just comparing one situation to another).

Both urgently need a new book, but it doesn't seem any time soon. Can't wait for Ad Mech to be even more broken.

The biggest problem with Tau is that you lack the mobility and the firepower.

Theres some Adeptus Mechanicus competitive lists that can win matches because their firepower is so obscene and their units so fast they can obliterate you out of all objetives turn 1 and be scoring in turn 2.

Tau lack that. Yeah they can maybe shoot you out of the objetives by turn 2-3 but at that point they have allready lost. Deep Striking firepower is useless. You enter turn 2, kill whatever is on the objetives, move in the objetive turn 3, and you make points un turn 4.

And with the nerfs to fly you cannot engage with your suits or they become instantly useless units that work agaisnt you, protecting the enemy. And I was playing Breacher mechanized tau with 30-40 kroots, piranhas and stealth suits before in 8th, I don't even own riptides. But is the same, theres just no way to claim objetives and make points.

I do think that GW is setting a good pattern with Xenos armies this edition. Makes me keen for the other xenos that have quirks to their playstyle.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to GSC- their Crusade stuff is going to be sweet.

As for when, that is hard to say. GW seems to be getting back to a weekly release cycle, so we could be seeing two dexes a month from here on in if we're lucky.

Admech is up next; that leaves only the Knights from Charadon act 1 without a dex.

The next four pack should be Orks, Sisters, Daemons and maybe CSM. I think these will be the Charadon Act 2 armies.

No ideas about Chardon 3 or 4 yet- assuming there are even four parts; maybe Q3 and Q4 will be a different campaign altogether. I think the Broken Realms campaign cycle is five books? I figured it would make the most sense to do it quarterly...

Still lots of speculation. I'm not really familiar with Tau, so I'm not really sure who they'd come up against. In PA, they put them with GSC, so that could be a match up. It would be interesting if the Uprising brought the Hive Fleet into the campaign. It would be cool to get a unit or two that were a bridge between GSC and Nids- sort of like metamorphs, but maybe at a different scale?

the_scotsman wrote:
No need to worry about morale if you just run one nipple monkey.

Goddamnit! Well, that's now in my brain FOREVER.

PenitentJake wrote:
Every dex this ed has upped the game. I think when Tau and Eldar get their turn, it will work out.

Yep lets talk again in 2023... XD

 Argive wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Every dex this ed has upped the game. I think when Tau and Eldar get their turn, it will work out.

Yep lets talk again in 2023... XD

All of the dexes will be out by June of next year at the latest. If we do step back up to two/ month, they'll all be out by the end of this year.

PenitentJake wrote:

 Argive wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Every dex this ed has upped the game. I think when Tau and Eldar get their turn, it will work out.

Yep lets talk again in 2023... XD

All of the dexes will be out by June of next year at the latest. If we do step back up to two/ month, they'll all be out by the end of this year.

We are in april already
By my estimates there are 13 armies(see below) waiting for updates,12 if you consider ad mech potentialy getting dropped in april, however with covid and delays etc that have been prevalent they would have to stick to a strict 1 codex a month I just dont see it happening. Also It would not surprise me if we see another SM codex/ Moar supplements before the year is out. Because GW...

GK
CWE
Harlies
Chaos Demons
AD mech
GSC
Tyranids
SOB
CSM
TS
IG
IK
CK


Have I forgotten any?

 Argive wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Argive wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Every dex this ed has upped the game. I think when Tau and Eldar get their turn, it will work out.

Yep lets talk again in 2023... XD

All of the dexes will be out by June of next year at the latest. If we do step back up to two/ month, they'll all be out by the end of this year.

We are in april already
By my estimates there are 13 armies(see below) waiting for updates,12 if you consider ad mech potentialy getting dropped in april, however with covid and delays etc that have been prevalent they would have to stick to a strict 1 codex a month I just dont see it happening. Also It would not surprise me if we see another SM codex/ Moar supplements before the year is out. Because GW...

GK
CWE
Harlies
Chaos Demons
AD mech
GSC
Tyranids
SOB
CSM
TS
IG
IK
CK


Have I forgotten any?

It's doable. Just depends on COVID. Also whether or not we see EC and/or WE could up the count a bit as well as other new codexes.

Left out orks and tau.

Next June is dubious (even if everything went back to 2019 normal today), this year is right out.

Its going to be late 2022 at the absolute best then for everyone to have a codex.. But honestly I dont think they will keep it up at 1 dex a month. They going to wana sell us those campaign books etc

 Argive wrote:
Its going to be late 2022 at the absolute best then for everyone to have a codex.. But honestly I dont think they will keep it up at 1 dex a month. They going to wana sell us those campaign books etc

Well, they found their magic with adding supplements in campaigns so they'll happily fling codexes and campaigns at us. I'd bet June will be Charadon #2 and three or four more - Orks, CSM, and Sisters perhaps. Knights will drop in before then, I think.

Voss wrote:
Left out orks and tau.

Next June is dubious (even if everything went back to 2019 normal today), this year is right out.

Uh... There are nine months left this year; if we went to 2019 standards, that's 18 dexes this year.

June of next year is 15 months away- even at one per month, we'll hit that.

PenitentJake wrote:

Voss wrote:
Left out orks and tau.

Next June is dubious (even if everything went back to 2019 normal today), this year is right out.

Uh... There are nine months left this year; if we went to 2019 standards, that's 18 dexes this year.

That wasn't what I meant- just bringing production back up to speed is going to be a challenge. 2 per month (along with everything else) just isn't happening.

June of next year is 15 months away- even at one per month, we'll hit that.

And? One a month would be a struggle for them (and world conditions), hence 'dubious.' There is a lot of AoS on the schedule, 'campaign' books for both systems.
Ad Mech is April, and we'll be lucky to have Sisters, Orks and Vampires by this June.

Any bumps, or anything we simply don't know about can twist the schedule. Even positive things: If people are right about AoS 3.0 happening this year, you can write at least one month off this summer.

One a month has not been a struggle.

It's what they can do with the shipping/ manufacturing situation. Since October, there hasn't been a month without a dex or supplement despite the challenges.

Since we're at rock bottom and they are hitting one a month there is Zero reason to suspect we will get less than one per month. So by next June, we will have 15 more dexes. Period.

The comment that I was replying to with all of this timeline stuff suggested that we wouldn't see a Tau dex til 2023. I think there was probably some sarcasm in that estimate, as I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that it will even take until Q4 of 2022 to get the last of the dexes done, even with these delays.

Given that we had the big Charadon/ Drukari drop on the 20th (admittedly light on models), a huge Lumineth drop on the 27th, and Cursed City on the 3rd, I'm guessing Admech for the 10th, Be'Lakor will drop either the 24th or May 1. The 17th will probably be the Vampire Direchasm, so Knights, Sisters or Orks on either the 24th or 1st, depending on which weekend goes to Be'Lakor.

The big May release in 40k may also include Charadon Act 2. I don't think there will be a second Mission Pack for Charadon, but if there is, it would be a Matched Play Pack this time.

PenitentJake wrote:
One a month has not been a struggle.

It's what they can do with the shipping/ manufacturing situation. Since October, there hasn't been a month without a dex or supplement despite the challenges.

They had to scale back already, no chance it might happen again! History is, of course, completely meaningless. /s

Since we're at rock bottom and they are hitting one a month there is Zero reason to suspect we will get less than one per month. So by next June, we will have 15 more dexes. Period.

We're not at 'rock bottom.' We're at 'stressed infrastructure' and 'easing restrictions when it can get worse.'
And, again, you're ignoring everything else they want to release.

You're optimism is wearying. Especially since when it doesn't happen, its going to be accompanied by cries of 'GW promised!' when they didn't.

All we know for sure is Ad Mech is next month, and Sisters and Orks are coming (with fairly significant releases, which you've previously denied would happen) in a vaguely 3 month time frame. GW hasn't committed to anything beyond that.

I'm also going to quibble here; did GW ever maintain 2 codexes a month for an entire year? You keep alluding to that, Jake, but IIRC they did that for several months in a row and then ran out of gas. I don't think it's crazy to expect a flurry of releases from GW, that's certainly their MO. But I don't know that we've seen a sustained flow like you allege. There's just not a lot of reason to expect things to go faster than they did in 8th (given index -> codex was a bigger transition than codex 1 -> codex 2, even if it doesn't feel that way sometimes.)

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I'm also going to quibble here; did GW ever maintain 2 codexes a month for an entire year? You keep alluding to that, Jake, but IIRC they did that for several months in a row and then ran out of gas. I don't think it's crazy to expect a flurry of releases from GW, that's certainly their MO. But I don't know that we've seen a sustained flow like you allege. There's just not a lot of reason to expect things to go faster than they did in 8th (given index -> codex was a bigger transition than codex 1 -> codex 2, even if it doesn't feel that way sometimes.)

Not codexes, no. With other books - campaigns and such - the numbers creeps up. They definitely pushed out a lot of books pretty quickly though ( relative to GW of yore ).