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 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
At these tournaments, are there any Table Top Simulator included? If so easy access to virtually any army may be a cause for the spike in players as DE didn't have a super large tournament following before this (unlike marines where majority of people often have random marine units and armies in their collections)

Yes, but a fairly small percentage, I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seabass wrote:
IRT OP:
I don't think the Drukhari are broken. I think there are two interactions that probably need to be cleaned up, but I don't think they're broken at all.

We have a few Harlequin players locally, and so long as you build your list to be able to play reactively and defensive at first, and keep it fairly well rounded, you have a game to play.

I think anytime a new codex comes out, it's going to take the meta by storm. I can remember people on here bitching about Space Wolves, and Blood Angels, and the what, 30-page thread of how broken the Dark Angels are?

I think we just need to give it a bit of time to balance out and see what the meta does.

People bitch, incessantly, but most of the people I hear complaining about the game on social media, in the communities and local gaming groups are the people who complain and don't play, have never played against, or have played against said codex once and got their ass kicked, and then screamed bloody murder because of it.

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but 9th edition so far is, in my opinion, and experience is very well balanced between each other with the new codexes. Now, obviously, we need every army to get their new codex, and GW is clearly working on that to get everyone up to snuff, but the game is actually much better than people have given it credit for.

I also think that covid has just exacerbated all of this. I am lucky, my group has been meeting at my home, we have big barbeque days and people play. So even during lockdowns we have been playing lots of games and kept going, so I do have the privilege of probably playing more games than many folks have had the opportunity to. I also understand that until you get to put models on the table and play the game, everything seems broken on paper, or it can seem that way.

Give it time. I don't think its anywhere near as bad as people think.

I agree with the overall sentiment. I got my teeth kicked in by Mortifiers for the first time ever facing them. At first I was taken aback, but the more I thought about it the more I saw what I could have done differently.

However, DE do seem pretty harsh, but I haven't had the opportunity to find someone playing them on TTS yet and I do 3 to 5 games a week.

I think the best approach will be for GW to round off a few edges and let the book settle. Over balancing it might make it a crummy book real fast.

mrFickle wrote:
Are Drukhari OP or do you just need to up skill you lost building to tailor it to this enemy?

They're OP - at least, the most powerful competitive combos are OP compared to the rest of the current competitive field.

In general casual games, I think it's kind of random/dependent on army composition. I've played as covens and wyches and felt like an unstoppable juggernaut, and I've played against wyches and kabals and felt like it was a pretty fair fight, if a little tilted in my favor.

If they bring a massive melee/close range alpha strike to bear with all 2000 of their points all at once and force you to fight the whole army at the same time it becomes a bit of an un-solveable problem, as current rules kind of give them a little layer of extra everything to bump them over the top - extra points, from fielding Reavers, extra damage from gak like the blender succubus and DT liquifiers, extra CP from the probably unintended triple patrol thing, and that means in competitive a drukhari player can bring a solid TAC list with counters against everything while everyone else is bringing a tilted skew list to target the armies that they have to target statistically to win games - marines, DG, custodes combined are still solidly over 50% of the play meta, and a lot of the other weirder armies like Nids and necrons and sisters and such that you are less likely to see but still up near the top are bringing setups that the anti-marine weapons arent necessarily the BEST against, but are still GOOD against. If you've got yourself a squad of plasma inceptors, you really like seeing marines, but you see necrons and you go "eh, ok. Its not perfectly optimal, but I can shoot them on low power and still wipe a bunch of warriors on 3s to wound."

They need, at this point, a 2.0dex IH style emergency nerf in the 2-week FAQ to curb the purest silliness - blender succubus, reavers, possibly the bonus CP, possibly Dark Tech - and then most likely, if their winrate is still in the upper 50s come the next chapter approved, points nerfs to their top performing units.

Mmm, yea, that triple patrol, while well received, has some ill intended consequences when everything is so awesome. I'd love to do 2 or 3 patrols for free.

Slipspace wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
I'd argue drukhari are good, but are likely as OP as Harlequins and SoB. The counter to both of those factions is pretty much transports, counter deep striking units, and auspex scan.

If marine players keep building lists to kill other marines then the anti meta boogeyman armies will continue to place in the top 5. This problem is further magnified by the population skewing towards playing.marines.

Part of the problem there is that Harlequins and SoB are both 8th edition Codexes. GW can rebalance them when their books release for 9th, but DE now have their book. We see this quite often when editions change but Codexes stay legal from the previous edition. There's almost always 1-2 armies that benefit from the specific rules changes between editions. In this case Harlequins seem to have benefitted massively from relatively light points increases and their general "hit hard, hit fast" playstyle being very advantageous in 9th. I'm not sure the same counters that work against DE are great against Harlequins, and vice-versa. DE have a much greater range of defensive profiles and their basic transports have more wounds, which changes the maths on what works best against them compared to Harlequin transports.

Eh its still pretty darn similar in terms of what you want. You want Heavy Bolters a little less against drukhari in the average setup (though you'll thank the stars for your heavy bolters if you run up against Hellions - its the perfect weapon to kill them) and you want autocannons and the...primaris assault cannon thingies, the strength 6 chainguns. Those are super great aginst drukhari and harlequins alike.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Mmm, yea, that triple patrol, while well received, has some ill intended consequences when everything is so awesome. I'd love to do 2 or 3 patrols for free.

I'm not saying the patrols for free setup needs to be changed, they just also have to change the detachment Command Benefits to "none" as well as changing the cost to zero.

I am 99% certain the extra 2 cp is unintentional and just got missed.

I am 99% certain the extra 2 cp is unintentional and just got missed.

I dont think so other armies have ways to generate extra CP this is just how Drukhari does it. And while Drukhari get free patrols they also sort of have to bring multiple detachments while other factions dont. They do have real space now but are restricted to must take 3 hqs and 3 specific troops so idk if thats the same as a regular faction.

When you want to take all of those options it is not really a cost.
For harlequins their transports are not a tax. Same with buff bots for SoB or Chaplains for marines.

My dudes want to take 3 HQs too, in fact they want more then 3HQs, but we don't have any bonuses build in to take them, even when half the army mechanics are based around those characters using psychic powers.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I agree with the overall sentiment. I got my teeth kicked in by Mortifiers for the first time ever facing them. At first I was taken aback, but the more I thought about it the more I saw what I could have done differently.

However, DE do seem pretty harsh, but I haven't had the opportunity to find someone playing them on TTS yet and I do 3 to 5 games a week.

I think the best approach will be for GW to round off a few edges and let the book settle. Over balancing it might make it a crummy book real fast.

Yeah, I agree, there are a few interactions that need to be looked at. the free CP for just taking an army is one of them, the super blender archon, and maybe a few others, but honestly, I would rather they stay the way they are now than get too many changes. I don't want to see the faction get nerfed into oblivion because a whole lot of people who haven't had the opportunity to play are looking at the skewed stats of a few small events and freaking out about it.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Eh its still pretty darn similar in terms of what you want. You want Heavy Bolters a little less against drukhari in the average setup (though you'll thank the stars for your heavy bolters if you run up against Hellions - its the perfect weapon to kill them) and you want autocannons and the...primaris assault cannon thingies, the strength 6 chainguns. Those are super great aginst drukhari and harlequins alike.

If I were playing marines I would take...

Redemptor w/ HOGC - covers T3 and takes on liquifiers
Redemptor w/ Plasma - D3 pew pew
TFC - slow down any scary melee blocks, hordes, or to kill flaggers
6 Suppressors - turn off O/W and kill boats
3 Eliminators - soften characters
3 Eradicators w/ HMR & MM
Judiciar - make sure you survive the first contact

That's 1020.

Add some Heavy Intercessors and Phobos to use Guerilla Tactics to jump the board if they're hyper aggressive. Spend the rest on characters and whatever the front line will be.

Maybe go straight Salamanders to ignore most Blade Artists, Bolt Rifles, Galvanic Rifles, etc and connect better with big guns and some flamer aggs.

None of this would be useless when facing DA, DG, WS, Sisters, or Orks.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Eh its still pretty darn similar in terms of what you want. You want Heavy Bolters a little less against drukhari in the average setup (though you'll thank the stars for your heavy bolters if you run up against Hellions - its the perfect weapon to kill them) and you want autocannons and the...primaris assault cannon thingies, the strength 6 chainguns. Those are super great aginst drukhari and harlequins alike.

If I were playing marines I would take...

Redemptor w/ HOGC - covers T3 and takes on liquifiers
Redemptor w/ Plasma - D3 pew pew
TFC - slow down any scary melee blocks, hordes, or to kill flaggers
6 Suppressors - turn off O/W and kill boats
3 Eliminators - soften characters
3 Eradicators w/ HMR & MM
Judiciar - make sure you survive the first contact

That's 1020.

Add some Heavy Intercessors and Phobos to use Guerilla Tactics to jump the board if they're hyper aggressive. Spend the rest on characters and whatever the front line will be.

Maybe go straight Salamanders to ignore most Blade Artists, Bolt Rifles, Galvanic Rifles, etc and connect better with big guns and some flamer aggs.

None of this would be useless when facing DA, DG, WS, Sisters, or Orks.

It's a good start. I don't main marines, but I'd like to see a marine army with this core take on DE.

 the_scotsman wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Are Drukhari OP or do you just need to up skill you lost building to tailor it to this enemy?

They're OP - at least, the most powerful competitive combos are OP compared to the rest of the current competitive field.

In general casual games, I think it's kind of random/dependent on army composition. I've played as covens and wyches and felt like an unstoppable juggernaut, and I've played against wyches and kabals and felt like it was a pretty fair fight, if a little tilted in my favor.

If they bring a massive melee/close range alpha strike to bear with all 2000 of their points all at once and force you to fight the whole army at the same time it becomes a bit of an un-solveable problem, as current rules kind of give them a little layer of extra everything to bump them over the top - extra points, from fielding Reavers, extra damage from gak like the blender succubus and DT liquifiers, extra CP from the probably unintended triple patrol thing, and that means in competitive a drukhari player can bring a solid TAC list with counters against everything while everyone else is bringing a tilted skew list to target the armies that they have to target statistically to win games - marines, DG, custodes combined are still solidly over 50% of the play meta, and a lot of the other weirder armies like Nids and necrons and sisters and such that you are less likely to see but still up near the top are bringing setups that the anti-marine weapons arent necessarily the BEST against, but are still GOOD against. If you've got yourself a squad of plasma inceptors, you really like seeing marines, but you see necrons and you go "eh, ok. Its not perfectly optimal, but I can shoot them on low power and still wipe a bunch of warriors on 3s to wound."

They need, at this point, a 2.0dex IH style emergency nerf in the 2-week FAQ to curb the purest silliness - blender succubus, reavers, possibly the bonus CP, possibly Dark Tech - and then most likely, if their winrate is still in the upper 50s come the next chapter approved, points nerfs to their top performing units.

You know there is difference between IH and Drukhari releases.
IH comm when SM 2.0 was already released for 2 mounts and SM armies were having impact. Players were creating list to kill SM and even than they could not do much vs IH.
Currently Drukhari have not be countered since the archetype is new.
Yet, i think that after this weekend there will be nerfs for Drukhari, especially as i expect them to do really good.
People also seem to ignore AM, AM are probably as strong as DE, maybe even stronger after the codex release.

Marin wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Are Drukhari OP or do you just need to up skill you lost building to tailor it to this enemy?

They're OP - at least, the most powerful competitive combos are OP compared to the rest of the current competitive field.

In general casual games, I think it's kind of random/dependent on army composition. I've played as covens and wyches and felt like an unstoppable juggernaut, and I've played against wyches and kabals and felt like it was a pretty fair fight, if a little tilted in my favor.

If they bring a massive melee/close range alpha strike to bear with all 2000 of their points all at once and force you to fight the whole army at the same time it becomes a bit of an un-solveable problem, as current rules kind of give them a little layer of extra everything to bump them over the top - extra points, from fielding Reavers, extra damage from gak like the blender succubus and DT liquifiers, extra CP from the probably unintended triple patrol thing, and that means in competitive a drukhari player can bring a solid TAC list with counters against everything while everyone else is bringing a tilted skew list to target the armies that they have to target statistically to win games - marines, DG, custodes combined are still solidly over 50% of the play meta, and a lot of the other weirder armies like Nids and necrons and sisters and such that you are less likely to see but still up near the top are bringing setups that the anti-marine weapons arent necessarily the BEST against, but are still GOOD against. If you've got yourself a squad of plasma inceptors, you really like seeing marines, but you see necrons and you go "eh, ok. Its not perfectly optimal, but I can shoot them on low power and still wipe a bunch of warriors on 3s to wound."

They need, at this point, a 2.0dex IH style emergency nerf in the 2-week FAQ to curb the purest silliness - blender succubus, reavers, possibly the bonus CP, possibly Dark Tech - and then most likely, if their winrate is still in the upper 50s come the next chapter approved, points nerfs to their top performing units.

You know there is difference between IH and Drukhari releases.
IH comm when SM 2.0 was already released for 2 mounts and SM armies were having impact. Players were creating list to kill SM and even than they could not do much vs IH.
Currently Drukhari have not be countered since the archetype is new.
Yet, i think that after this weekend there will be nerfs for Drukhari, especially as i expect them to do really good.
People also seem to ignore AM, AM are probably as strong as DE, maybe even stronger after the codex release.

AM as in...astra militarum? or adeptus mechanicus? Neither to my knowledge are particularly incredible right now, Adeptus Mechanicus has a flyer spam setup that's winning games but it's kind of a weird hyper skew thing, neither of their general core armies are very good.

with the new codex AM may be good, but so far we just know that there are some changes coming without really understanding what their deal is. Some currently strong units (doggos) are getting nerfed, some currently ery weak units (balistarii, arc weapons, electropriests, ruststalkers) are getting buffs, and some datasheets are showing stuff like damage 2 phosphor blasters which will HEAVILY depend on special rules to determine how strong they are.

Kastelans as they currently exist with damage 2 phosphor would indeed be crazy crazy strong, but we dont actually know if theyll continue to do what they do now as GW has been very strong against double shoot/double fight, removing it in many cases.

 the_scotsman wrote:
I wonder what the winrates would look like in LoL if you had every team choose a team comp before the tournament, no bans, and made them play with that the whole tournament.

This is a good point. You can't ban units you don't like to see.

Looks like DE isn't so OP after all #shockface

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-lightning-round-29-04/

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Looks like DE isn't so OP after all #shockface

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-lightning-round-29-04/

Literally 4 articles before that Goonhammer have a round table talking about why Dark Eldar are problematic.

I think that was awkward sarcasm.

For the moment, there are so few Drukhari players for it to be truly problematic. While they have a fantastic win rate, their low numbers means they cannot dominate tournaments.

Of course, as more players move to a Drukhari army, that will likely change.

 Tyran wrote:
For the moment, there are so few Drukhari players for it to be truly problematic. While they have a fantastic win rate, their low numbers means they cannot dominate tournaments.

Of course, as more players move to a Drukhari army, that will likely change.

Drukhari represented 7.2% of games and 6% of lists last week. They're more common than everyone except DG & Necrons.






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yukishiro1 wrote:
I think that was awkward sarcasm.

Sarcasm or not those results are pretty healthy. Will it change more towards DE in the future? I don't know.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
For the moment, there are so few Drukhari players for it to be truly problematic. While they have a fantastic win rate, their low numbers means they cannot dominate tournaments.

Of course, as more players move to a Drukhari army, that will likely change.

Drukhari represented 7.2% of games and 6% of lists last week. They're more common than everyone except DG & Necrons.






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yukishiro1 wrote:
I think that was awkward sarcasm.

Sarcasm or not those results are pretty healthy. Will it change more towards DE in the future? I don't know.

....as long as you split that one codex into like 12 component parts, obviously.

 the_scotsman wrote:
....as long as you split that one codex into like 12 component parts, obviously.

Yea, I know, but at the same time DA offers a totally different problem than WS and WS a totally different problem from Iron Hands. The lists just do not interact the same.

Maybe you could brick BT, SW, and DA and then IH, IF, SAL, etc.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
....as long as you split that one codex into like 12 component parts, obviously.

Yea, I know, but at the same time DA offers a totally different problem than WS and WS a totally different problem from Iron Hands. The lists just do not interact the same.

Maybe you could brick BT, SW, and DA and then IH, IF, SAL, etc.

Yeah, and an entirely dark tech pure covens list is super distinct from a coven+cults list is super distinct from a kabal+ynnari list, but they're all listed as drukhari.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, and an entirely dark tech pure covens list is super distinct from a coven+cults list is super distinct from a kabal+ynnari list, but they're all listed as drukhari.

Fair point, but I think the differences are a bit more pronounced when you look at DA. Some UM players pack in a ton of dreadnoughts and effectively operate like DG.

I have been going over the Succubus' datasheet as I think it was scotsman and I'm not seeing anything justifying more than a 5 pt increase. Troupe Master with a weapon is 70, I think Troupe Masters are about 5 points undercosted.

The Succubus aura is a joke compared to that of the Troupe Master, same save, Succubus cannot advance and charge before turn 3, Troupe Master can fall back, shoot and charge, he has fly, Troupe Master is slightly less killy without relics and buffs, but it's not much. I'd say the Troupe Master comes ahead by about 10 pts.

What's the worst Succubus loadout? From worst to best:

*Archite glaive and splinter pistol
*Hydra gauntlets
*Archite glaive and agoniser
*Shardnet and impaler
*Archite glaive and blast pistol
*Razorflails (assuming no changes other than the WL trait's bonus attacks not generating further bonus attacks)

So hydra gauntlets at 1 pt, agoniser and impaler at 3, blast pistol and razorflails at 5. That increases the Succubus' cost by 5 or 3 if you are running the agoniser.

 vict0988 wrote:
I have been going over the Succubus' datasheet as I think it was scotsman and I'm not seeing anything justifying more than a 5 pt increase. Troupe Master with a weapon is 70, I think Troupe Masters are about 5 points undercosted.

The Succubus aura is a joke compared to that of the Troupe Master, same save, Succubus cannot advance and charge before turn 3, Troupe Master can fall back, shoot and charge, he has fly, Troupe Master is slightly less killy without relics and buffs, but it's not much. I'd say the Troupe Master comes ahead by about 10 pts.

What's the worst Succubus loadout? From worst to best:

*Archite glaive and splinter pistol
*Hydra gauntlets
*Archite glaive and agoniser
*Shardnet and impaler
*Archite glaive and blast pistol
*Razorflails (assuming no changes other than the WL trait's bonus attacks not generating further bonus attacks)

So hydra gauntlets at 1 pt, agoniser and impaler at 3, blast pistol and razorflails at 5. That increases the Succubus' cost by 5 or 3 if you are running the agoniser.

Currently no succubus option costs points. I'm trying to figure out whether you're listing old points or new points or what you think the points should be? Currently, for wyches, hydras and razors are 5 and the others are 10. Currently the succubus always has 5 points of equipment built into her (she either has an Agonizer, or a Blast Pistol, or Hydras, or Razors, and she gets an extra 5pts for free if she takes the Shardnet.

thats kind of the conundrum with her though, isnt it. Her core stats are not all that OP - its the powerful combinations of warlord traits and relics that make her perform in such a way that you go 'huh, that does NOT seem like a 60pt hq. But GW has rarely, if ever to my knowledge, actually changed the statline of a relic or WL trait - even in the case of extremely egregious examples like the relic plasma thingy on the Castellan. Also, it seems like GW is sticking to their guns on the whole 'stuff is only ever going to cost multiples of 5 points, except for units, for some reason, totally defeating any purpose of going to multiples of 5 for upgrades' shtick. There are a ton of minor upgrades that would be fine at 1-4pts (most of the acothyst weapon upgrade list, upgrades on GEQ sergeants, GEQ special weapons, etc etc) but stupidly hilariously overcosted at 5, and plenty of weapons at 5pts that arent quite worth 10 but are almost inarguably undercosted at 5 (fusion pistol...)

It seems like the approach from GW is just 'we will buff every currently underpowered upgrade up until it makes sense at 5 points' and it just seems like a very weird windmill to be tilting at, idk.

Maybe, honestly, its just the fact that there is not one, single clear crazy strong relic/trait combo for a succubus and a bunch of aggressively way way shittier ones youd never use, and they actually arent that crazy compared to other relic'd/traited up HQs. After all, how many targets can you get a 100% points return on a SM captain with the teeth of terra against? after all, murder archon can pull nearly the same damage numbers, has a better aura, and absolutely nobodys talking about him at all. Is it just because he's so blatantly obviously solved the instant you look at him?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, and an entirely dark tech pure covens list is super distinct from a coven+cults list is super distinct from a kabal+ynnari list, but they're all listed as drukhari.

Fair point, but I think the differences are a bit more pronounced when you look at DA. Some UM players pack in a ton of dreadnoughts and effectively operate like DG.

cant relate, sorry. An all-Kabal drukhari list is completely utterly distinct from an all-coven list, they could not be more different in playstyle. Its like comparing DG and GSC (not power wise, mind you). An Iron Hands vs Imp Fists vs Raven Guard vs White Scars marine list is not anywhere near that different.

Drukhari don't auto win versus marines, they have a really high win rate against the common marine builds at the time of Drukhari being released.

You can't build a marine list, or any list, that is completely optimized to kill marine armies- and everything else as well. Yes that does mean that a non marine army optimized to kill marine list will have a good chance to place higher. Just as if marines were not the most played faction and everyone was building to kill eldar and marines showed up you likely would find the marine player would do better.

It is a meta mindset problem, not inherently this codex always wins vs x codex.

I gotta nit pick something. Someone mentioned Judiciars as a counter.

Judiciars do literally nothing against Wyches. Cult of strive gets fight first for free all the time, which would cancel out fight last. So charges go first, with their speed that will always be the wyches.

Was +1 attack really not enough? They also get +1 to charge, because why not?

 footfoe wrote:
I gotta nit pick something. Someone mentioned Judiciars as a counter.

Judiciars do literally nothing against Wyches. Cult of strive gets fight first for free all the time, which would cancel out fight last. So charges go first, with their speed that will always be the wyches.

Was +1 attack really not enough? They also get +1 to charge, because why not?

One flavour of Wyches get a restricted +1 to charges. They're also Strength and Toughness 3. I'm not seeing anyone stating that the issue with Drukhari is that Wyches are too good. They're great troops, but far from broken. The real strength they have - like the rest of the army - is that they trade efficiently. That's easily taken care of with a points adjustment.

We need to lose this mindset as a community that other armies are there to act as NPC's for our own to mow down. This seems particularly prevalent (but far from limited to) players from a certain poster boy faction.

ALL armies need to be equally viable, or as close as is manageable, for the game to be truly healthy. When that isn't what we want, we're literally arguing toward the entire games detriment.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
I have been going over the Succubus' datasheet as I think it was scotsman and I'm not seeing anything justifying more than a 5 pt increase. Troupe Master with a weapon is 70, I think Troupe Masters are about 5 points undercosted.

The Succubus aura is a joke compared to that of the Troupe Master, same save, Succubus cannot advance and charge before turn 3, Troupe Master can fall back, shoot and charge, he has fly, Troupe Master is slightly less killy without relics and buffs, but it's not much. I'd say the Troupe Master comes ahead by about 10 pts.

What's the worst Succubus loadout? From worst to best:

*Archite glaive and splinter pistol
*Hydra gauntlets
*Archite glaive and agoniser
*Shardnet and impaler
*Archite glaive and blast pistol
*Razorflails (assuming no changes other than the WL trait's bonus attacks not generating further bonus attacks)

So hydra gauntlets at 1 pt, agoniser and impaler at 3, blast pistol and razorflails at 5. That increases the Succubus' cost by 5 or 3 if you are running the agoniser.

Currently no succubus option costs points. I'm trying to figure out whether you're listing old points or new points or what you think the points should be?

I was thinking giving the weapons a points cost could nerf Succubi a little and balance the options. Blast pistol is better than a splinter pistol and should therefore cost more.

Currently, for wyches, hydras and razors are 5 and the others are 10. Currently the succubus always has 5 points of equipment built into her (she either has an Agonizer, or a Blast Pistol, or Hydras, or Razors, and she gets an extra 5pts for free if she takes the Shardnet.

thats kind of the conundrum with her though, isnt it. Her core stats are not all that OP - its the powerful combinations of warlord traits and relics that make her perform in such a way that you go 'huh, that does NOT seem like a 60pt hq. But GW has rarely, if ever to my knowledge, actually changed the statline of a relic or WL trait - even in the case of extremely egregious examples like the relic plasma thingy on the Castellan. Also, it seems like GW is sticking to their guns on the whole 'stuff is only ever going to cost multiples of 5 points, except for units, for some reason, totally defeating any purpose of going to multiples of 5 for upgrades' shtick. There are a ton of minor upgrades that would be fine at 1-4pts (most of the acothyst weapon upgrade list, upgrades on GEQ sergeants, GEQ special weapons, etc etc) but stupidly hilariously overcosted at 5, and plenty of weapons at 5pts that arent quite worth 10 but are almost inarguably undercosted at 5 (fusion pistol...)

It seems like the approach from GW is just 'we will buff every currently underpowered upgrade up until it makes sense at 5 points' and it just seems like a very weird windmill to be tilting at, idk.

Maybe, honestly, its just the fact that there is not one, single clear crazy strong relic/trait combo for a succubus and a bunch of aggressively way way shittier ones youd never use, and they actually arent that crazy compared to other relic'd/traited up HQs. After all, how many targets can you get a 100% points return on a SM captain with the teeth of terra against? after all, murder archon can pull nearly the same damage numbers, has a better aura, and absolutely nobodys talking about him at all. Is it just because he's so blatantly obviously solved the instant you look at him?

Do you think shardnets are worth 5 more pts than hydra gauntlets on a Succubus?

GW's 5 point mission is pandering to the casual and narrative crowd. How many people got burned by the 150% increase on storm bolters? The removal of voidblade and hyperphase discount on Necron HQs makes my piss boil.

 footfoe wrote:
I gotta nit pick something. Someone mentioned Judiciars as a counter.

Judiciars do literally nothing against Wyches. Cult of strive gets fight first for free all the time, which would cancel out fight last. So charges go first, with their speed that will always be the wyches.

Was +1 attack really not enough? They also get +1 to charge, because why not?

You are wrong Judiciar is not fight last, its fight after everyone.

 footfoe wrote:
I gotta nit pick something. Someone mentioned Judiciars as a counter.

Judiciars do literally nothing against Wyches. Cult of strive gets fight first for free all the time, which would cancel out fight last. So charges go first, with their speed that will always be the wyches.

Was +1 attack really not enough? They also get +1 to charge, because why not?

They don't get +1 attack....

Here is part of the issue IMHO, too many chefs entering the kitchen that have no idea what they are talking about, but have opinions on how the recipe should change.

 footfoe wrote:
I gotta nit pick something. Someone mentioned Judiciars as a counter.

Judiciars do literally nothing against Wyches. Cult of strive gets fight first for free all the time, which would cancel out fight last. So charges go first, with their speed that will always be the wyches.

Was +1 attack really not enough? They also get +1 to charge, because why not?

Judiciars bump cos wyches down to the non-charger stage of the fight phase, where the inactive player selects the first unit to fight.

They work slightly less well vs cos than vs anything else but theyre still plenty effective vs cos. Just choose a good unit to hit them with as your first selection or use counter offensive during the charging unit phase if you have to.