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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
If weapon ranges were more in the 12-24" range for most stuff and infantry movements value were 4" for normal stuff and 5" for fast and transports moved 12" then most transports would have a place.

Raiders are good because you lose literally nothing for being on one. You gain a good weapon, you gain fly, you gain flexibility, you gain mobility, and you lose 0 firepower.

You lose having Wyches being on the table without a raider lol.

Ehhh - they are pretty easy to hide and they are really fast too. You could easily get by without the raider and make them work. There is no reason not to take the raider though. At the very least it gives the wyches an additional 3 inch move on turn 1 (not minor at all).

You are joking right? Or are you trolling? B.c I hope you are not seriously saying fielding 30-40 wyches without raiders is a reliable way to play.

Personally I would definitely not WANT to play drukhari that way, as it kinda goes against the super sweet space raider theme, but to be fair Orks play like that if you go full boyz. Sure, they have Da Jump, but turn 2 advance and charge is preeeeeeeeeeety damn good and doesn't rely on a cast.

Quasistellar wrote:
Personally I would definitely not WANT to play drukhari that way, as it kinda goes against the super sweet space raider theme, but to be fair Orks play like that if you go full boyz. Sure, they have Da Jump, but turn 2 advance and charge is preeeeeeeeeeety damn good and doesn't rely on a cast.

Do you think that there might be some reason why that playstyle might be worthwhile with orks while being completely and utterly unreliable with drukhari?

Like maybe it's the fact that orks are cheaper, T4, have inexpensive HQs available that grant 5++ and 6+FNP to nearby units, they have a stratagem to deep strike a unit across the board, they have another basic character that grants advance and charge, they reroll 1 or both charge dice, they have a stratagem that brings units back from the dead....and wyches have...none of that?

Well Wyches has Drugs and PFP, so they can, kind of? do it. I would say a better example would be Daemonettes. Being 7pts, -1ap (6's -4ap) 5++ can run and charge with other support, are also S/T 3 base.

But yeah Orks able to field 120 T4, 5++, 6+++, models with better hero support is key to them running across the table, Orks were built that way, DE are built to ride in Transports.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
If weapon ranges were more in the 12-24" range for most stuff and infantry movements value were 4" for normal stuff and 5" for fast and transports moved 12" then most transports would have a place.

Raiders are good because you lose literally nothing for being on one. You gain a good weapon, you gain fly, you gain flexibility, you gain mobility, and you lose 0 firepower.

You lose having Wyches being on the table without a raider lol.

Ehhh - they are pretty easy to hide and they are really fast too. You could easily get by without the raider and make them work. There is no reason not to take the raider though. At the very least it gives the wyches an additional 3 inch move on turn 1 (not minor at all).

You are joking right? Or are you trolling? B.c I hope you are not seriously saying fielding 30-40 wyches without raiders is a reliable way to play.

Not trolling. Pretty sure the "best player in the world" was taking 20 man wyches to competitive events.
You can deep strike them. Or hide them.
They are even faster now to.

I never said 30-40 ether. You said that. If you give them hypex with advance and charge turn 2. They can literally zone midfield objectives from safety behind LOS blocking.

With +1 T from Combat Drugs it's not too crazy, comparing them to Ork Boys they have the same 6++ as Deff Skulls and same T4. Their character kicks about as much butt as an Ork Warboss but is cheaper, that buff cost is basically baked into the Wyches.

I haven't seen any lists with foot-slogging Wyches, was that with the new codex? It is also very dependent on terrain and deployment type. Forests and Craters slow you down and don't really help your survivability much, while tonnes of ruins will make your unit invulnerable to the thing Wyches are supposed to be weak against (shooting).

 vict0988 wrote:
With +1 T from Combat Drugs it's not too crazy, comparing them to Ork Boys they have the same 6++ as Deff Skulls and same T4. Their character kicks about as much butt as an Ork Warboss but is cheaper, that buff cost is basically baked into the Wyches.

I haven't seen any lists with foot-slogging Wyches, was that with the new codex? It is also very dependent on terrain and deployment type. Forests and Craters slow you down and don't really help your survivability much, while tonnes of ruins will make your unit invulnerable to the thing Wyches are supposed to be weak against (shooting).

It was last eddition that foot wyches were being taken but all that's happened since then is wyches got better and boards became automatically more favorable. It is not much stretch to say that it can work. It will work. The thing is - will it work better than bringing an under costed raider which just makes them better. No. The under costed raider will always work better. The raider also got a lot better from 8th edition. No one ever took raiders then.

I haven't seen a single tournament table without huge amounts of LOS blocking. LOS blocking is on every table in every deployment zone.

 vict0988 wrote:
With +1 T from Combat Drugs it's not too crazy, comparing them to Ork Boys they have the same 6++ as Deff Skulls and same T4. Their character kicks about as much butt as an Ork Warboss but is cheaper, that buff cost is basically baked into the Wyches.

I haven't seen any lists with foot-slogging Wyches, was that with the new codex? It is also very dependent on terrain and deployment type. Forests and Craters slow you down and don't really help your survivability much, while tonnes of ruins will make your unit invulnerable to the thing Wyches are supposed to be weak against (shooting).

Sure - maybe orks would work too without KFFs, Ghaz buff, Da Jump, Mob Rule, Endless Green Tide, or 'Ere we Go, and boyz cost 2ppm more.

It'd be pretty weird if it worked WELL, though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
With +1 T from Combat Drugs it's not too crazy, comparing them to Ork Boys they have the same 6++ as Deff Skulls and same T4. Their character kicks about as much butt as an Ork Warboss but is cheaper, that buff cost is basically baked into the Wyches.

I haven't seen any lists with foot-slogging Wyches, was that with the new codex? It is also very dependent on terrain and deployment type. Forests and Craters slow you down and don't really help your survivability much, while tonnes of ruins will make your unit invulnerable to the thing Wyches are supposed to be weak against (shooting).

It was last eddition that foot wyches were being taken but all that's happened since then is wyches got better and boards became automatically more favorable. It is not much stretch to say that it can work. It will work. The thing is - will it work better than bringing an under costed raider which just makes them better. No. The under costed raider will always work better. The raider also got a lot better from 8th edition. No one ever took raiders then.

It happened b.c of Magic Boxes, also Wyches are not really better for footing, they had a FnP before and wrapping kept things in place just as well as new No Escape. Also Having played wyches thoughout all of 8th and 9th, while I like the new wyches No escape and PFP better, they are not better for me, they have gotten worst.

Before you could take 3 of 1 weapon, now you can not, its 1 of each. I had 2 units with 3 Hydro Gauntlets, 1 unit of 3 Shardnets, and 1 with Razorflails (Sometimes 2 units of RF's and 1 unit of HG's), then a couple other Wych units to make sure i had 7 units to double up on the drug I wanted, these units were not a waste for me so it worked out (2x3 Reavers and a BM b.c I also had some birds for Engage on all Fronts).

I played Cursed blade so I had +1str. The Shardnet was the 2D melee unit got +1 to hits drug, this was great Anti-MEQ. The Hydro Gauntlet's unit was re-roll wounds unit with +1attks, very consistent damage, great for invuls units or high Toughness. Razorflails gave D3 more attacks, this was the blender unit with 3D3 more attacks, I gave it strength to make it over Str4 so I could wound on 3's, RF's also re-rolled hits meaning I didn't need a Succubus/Archon near (archon in ynnari).

B.c I also had a 6+++ they were able to survive longer (this is more noticeable than I would have thought after many games of 9th book now)

So I "had" dedicated rolls and they worked amazing well in those roles, now new Wyches will have equal or +1 more attack and are better vs "not optimized targets" but over all are worst vs optimized ones. B.c Hellions and Incubi are better now I can sub out the Shardnet units, but in total my wyches are less effective in 9th for damage and survivability, but are faster. Also they are WAY more annoying to roll for. I have Shardnet, HG, Power sword, and RZ/Blades pools i need to roll on top of Blade Artists pools.

Hellions are also using most of my Wych stratagems, so Wyches are not really getting those either. Which makes the wyches feel even worst than before (I'm not complaining about this really, b.c i LOVE that Hellions are finally good! just more of an observation, there are a couple stratagems more for the Wyches, but some will never be used on them if the hellions are there).

 the_scotsman wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
With +1 T from Combat Drugs it's not too crazy, comparing them to Ork Boys they have the same 6++ as Deff Skulls and same T4. Their character kicks about as much butt as an Ork Warboss but is cheaper, that buff cost is basically baked into the Wyches.

I haven't seen any lists with foot-slogging Wyches, was that with the new codex? It is also very dependent on terrain and deployment type. Forests and Craters slow you down and don't really help your survivability much, while tonnes of ruins will make your unit invulnerable to the thing Wyches are supposed to be weak against (shooting).

Sure - maybe orks would work too without KFFs, Ghaz buff, Da Jump, Mob Rule, Endless Green Tide, or 'Ere we Go, and boyz cost 2ppm more.

It'd be pretty weird if it worked WELL, though.

I mean, Cult of Red Grief gives +2 to advance and allows reroll charge, and of course there's PfP advance + charge on turn 2.

I think you're underselling the potential here, but it's moot because Raiders are so good that why would anyone bother with foot wyches?

Quasistellar wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
With +1 T from Combat Drugs it's not too crazy, comparing them to Ork Boys they have the same 6++ as Deff Skulls and same T4. Their character kicks about as much butt as an Ork Warboss but is cheaper, that buff cost is basically baked into the Wyches.

I haven't seen any lists with foot-slogging Wyches, was that with the new codex? It is also very dependent on terrain and deployment type. Forests and Craters slow you down and don't really help your survivability much, while tonnes of ruins will make your unit invulnerable to the thing Wyches are supposed to be weak against (shooting).

Sure - maybe orks would work too without KFFs, Ghaz buff, Da Jump, Mob Rule, Endless Green Tide, or 'Ere we Go, and boyz cost 2ppm more.

It'd be pretty weird if it worked WELL, though.

I mean, Cult of Red Grief gives +2 to advance and allows reroll charge, and of course there's PfP advance + charge on turn 2.

I think you're underselling the potential here, but it's moot because Raiders are so good that why would anyone bother with foot wyches?

you're correct - raiders are very good, and because of that there's very little reason to consider Red Grief over the cult that gets you access to crazy powerful stratagems and the most broken character build in the game atm.

Mostly, what i find tiresome in any discussion of an overtuned book is the inevitable hyperbole of "Everything in the book is the most broken thing in the world reeee". Back in 7th, there was much discussion about how broken such units as Shining Spears and Dire Avengers and Guardians were, because everything eldar is evil and monstrous, and back when marines were broken in 8th, you had people whining that dumb gak like...land speeders or scout bikers or whatever were somehow unfair too.

if you took Raiders and Venoms and made them both equally as unviable as many other transports in the game - made a DL raider like 130 points to balance it vs a Razorback with twin lascannon and a venom like 90pts just because, even with the rest of the codex as busted as now, dark eldar would not be particularly usable. You'd maybe have people doing big huge wych cult hellion and raider blobs with min 5-man wych squads just there to raise banners, maybe someone would try to do a green tide with wracks, but the codex is designed around a mechanized style of play.

Oh I don't think EVERYTHING is overtuned. I think Goonhammer covered potential changes pretty well. I actually think Raiders don't need as high a points bump as others (5 base and swap points on dark lance and disintigrator, so total of 10 point bump on DL raider, and 5 points on disi raider). A 10 point bump on them is like a 1 ppm bump on the passengers, which seems fair? Venoms seem. . . well they just seem overshadowed by Raiders. I don't necessarily think they're OVERcosted.

I think Dark Technomancers needs its benefit for auto hitting weapons straight up deleted. Heck I wouldn't mind if the whole trait was deleted.

Quasistellar wrote:
Oh I don't think EVERYTHING is overtuned. I think Goonhammer covered potential changes pretty well. I actually think Raiders don't need as high a points bump as others (5 base and swap points on dark lance and disintigrator, so total of 10 point bump on DL raider, and 5 points on disi raider). A 10 point bump on them is like a 1 ppm bump on the passengers, which seems fair? Venoms seem. . . well they just seem overshadowed by Raiders. I don't necessarily think they're OVERcosted.

I think Dark Technomancers needs its benefit for auto hitting weapons straight up deleted. Heck I wouldn't mind if the whole trait was deleted.

^just note, if you swapped the point value for dissie and DL you would end up with a 0pt increase on dissie ravagers. Since they currently cost 5 and DL 0.

My suggestion is 10pts on body, swap points of DL/Dissie.

Quasistellar wrote:
(5 base and swap points on dark lance and disintigrator, so total of 10 point bump on DL raider, and 5 points on disi raider).

Nitpick, that would leave Disintegrator Raiders costing the same, not a 5 point bump.

+ 5 - 5 = 0 after all.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
With +1 T from Combat Drugs it's not too crazy, comparing them to Ork Boys they have the same 6++ as Deff Skulls and same T4. Their character kicks about as much butt as an Ork Warboss but is cheaper, that buff cost is basically baked into the Wyches.

I haven't seen any lists with foot-slogging Wyches, was that with the new codex? It is also very dependent on terrain and deployment type. Forests and Craters slow you down and don't really help your survivability much, while tonnes of ruins will make your unit invulnerable to the thing Wyches are supposed to be weak against (shooting).

It was last eddition that foot wyches were being taken but all that's happened since then is wyches got better and boards became automatically more favorable. It is not much stretch to say that it can work. It will work. The thing is - will it work better than bringing an under costed raider which just makes them better. No. The under costed raider will always work better. The raider also got a lot better from 8th edition. No one ever took raiders then.

It happened b.c of Magic Boxes, also Wyches are not really better for footing, they had a FnP before and wrapping kept things in place just as well as new No Escape. Also Having played wyches thoughout all of 8th and 9th, while I like the new wyches No escape and PFP better, they are not better for me, they have gotten worst.

Before you could take 3 of 1 weapon, now you can not, its 1 of each. I had 2 units with 3 Hydro Gauntlets, 1 unit of 3 Shardnets, and 1 with Razorflails (Sometimes 2 units of RF's and 1 unit of HG's), then a couple other Wych units to make sure i had 7 units to double up on the drug I wanted, these units were not a waste for me so it worked out (2x3 Reavers and a BM b.c I also had some birds for Engage on all Fronts).

I played Cursed blade so I had +1str. The Shardnet was the 2D melee unit got +1 to hits drug, this was great Anti-MEQ. The Hydro Gauntlet's unit was re-roll wounds unit with +1attks, very consistent damage, great for invuls units or high Toughness. Razorflails gave D3 more attacks, this was the blender unit with 3D3 more attacks, I gave it strength to make it over Str4 so I could wound on 3's, RF's also re-rolled hits meaning I didn't need a Succubus/Archon near (archon in ynnari).

B.c I also had a 6+++ they were able to survive longer (this is more noticeable than I would have thought after many games of 9th book now)

So I "had" dedicated rolls and they worked amazing well in those roles, now new Wyches will have equal or +1 more attack and are better vs "not optimized targets" but over all are worst vs optimized ones. B.c Hellions and Incubi are better now I can sub out the Shardnet units, but in total my wyches are less effective in 9th for damage and survivability, but are faster. Also they are WAY more annoying to roll for. I have Shardnet, HG, Power sword, and RZ/Blades pools i need to roll on top of Blade Artists pools.

Hellions are also using most of my Wych stratagems, so Wyches are not really getting those either. Which makes the wyches feel even worst than before (I'm not complaining about this really, b.c i LOVE that Hellions are finally good! just more of an observation, there are a couple stratagems more for the Wyches, but some will never be used on them if the hellions are there).

Magic boxes and walls play pretty much identically.

You can't argue wyches got worse. They got infinitely better. They have AP now and and additional attack and they can fight twice. They went from a unit that does almost no damage to a unit that can destroy pretty much anything. I am glad they got better - IMO they were pretty bad before. They did have the ability to lock things in combat though which was pretty unique and desirable. They still have that now and they do way more damage in an addition where meleeing people off objectives is the best way to win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Oh I don't think EVERYTHING is overtuned. I think Goonhammer covered potential changes pretty well. I actually think Raiders don't need as high a points bump as others (5 base and swap points on dark lance and disintigrator, so total of 10 point bump on DL raider, and 5 points on disi raider). A 10 point bump on them is like a 1 ppm bump on the passengers, which seems fair? Venoms seem. . . well they just seem overshadowed by Raiders. I don't necessarily think they're OVERcosted.

I think Dark Technomancers needs its benefit for auto hitting weapons straight up deleted. Heck I wouldn't mind if the whole trait was deleted.

^just note, if you swapped the point value for dissie and DL you would end up with a 0pt increase on dissie ravagers. Since they currently cost 5 and DL 0.

My suggestion is 10pts on body, swap points of DL/Dissie.

My suggestion would be they should cost about the same as the impulsor. Whatever that point value is. Any change that does fix this gap is irrelevant to me. Why fix some issues with the game and not others?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
With +1 T from Combat Drugs it's not too crazy, comparing them to Ork Boys they have the same 6++ as Deff Skulls and same T4. Their character kicks about as much butt as an Ork Warboss but is cheaper, that buff cost is basically baked into the Wyches.

I haven't seen any lists with foot-slogging Wyches, was that with the new codex? It is also very dependent on terrain and deployment type. Forests and Craters slow you down and don't really help your survivability much, while tonnes of ruins will make your unit invulnerable to the thing Wyches are supposed to be weak against (shooting).

It was last eddition that foot wyches were being taken but all that's happened since then is wyches got better and boards became automatically more favorable. It is not much stretch to say that it can work. It will work. The thing is - will it work better than bringing an under costed raider which just makes them better. No. The under costed raider will always work better. The raider also got a lot better from 8th edition. No one ever took raiders then.

It happened b.c of Magic Boxes, also Wyches are not really better for footing, they had a FnP before and wrapping kept things in place just as well as new No Escape. Also Having played wyches thoughout all of 8th and 9th, while I like the new wyches No escape and PFP better, they are not better for me, they have gotten worst.

Before you could take 3 of 1 weapon, now you can not, its 1 of each. I had 2 units with 3 Hydro Gauntlets, 1 unit of 3 Shardnets, and 1 with Razorflails (Sometimes 2 units of RF's and 1 unit of HG's), then a couple other Wych units to make sure i had 7 units to double up on the drug I wanted, these units were not a waste for me so it worked out (2x3 Reavers and a BM b.c I also had some birds for Engage on all Fronts).

I played Cursed blade so I had +1str. The Shardnet was the 2D melee unit got +1 to hits drug, this was great Anti-MEQ. The Hydro Gauntlet's unit was re-roll wounds unit with +1attks, very consistent damage, great for invuls units or high Toughness. Razorflails gave D3 more attacks, this was the blender unit with 3D3 more attacks, I gave it strength to make it over Str4 so I could wound on 3's, RF's also re-rolled hits meaning I didn't need a Succubus/Archon near (archon in ynnari).

B.c I also had a 6+++ they were able to survive longer (this is more noticeable than I would have thought after many games of 9th book now)

So I "had" dedicated rolls and they worked amazing well in those roles, now new Wyches will have equal or +1 more attack and are better vs "not optimized targets" but over all are worst vs optimized ones. B.c Hellions and Incubi are better now I can sub out the Shardnet units, but in total my wyches are less effective in 9th for damage and survivability, but are faster. Also they are WAY more annoying to roll for. I have Shardnet, HG, Power sword, and RZ/Blades pools i need to roll on top of Blade Artists pools.

Hellions are also using most of my Wych stratagems, so Wyches are not really getting those either. Which makes the wyches feel even worst than before (I'm not complaining about this really, b.c i LOVE that Hellions are finally good! just more of an observation, there are a couple stratagems more for the Wyches, but some will never be used on them if the hellions are there).

Magic boxes and walls play pretty much identically.

and they can fight twice.

Sorry what?

Are you talking about the Cult of Strife stratagem, which you dont get if you take them in Red Grief (the cult everyone was just saying you'd take foot wyches with) and which I'm fairly sure was also the cult of strife stratagem in the 8th dex?

Sidebar: this is why your rules takes are absolute crap, xeno. Every time you list out a unit's capabilities, or summarize anything relating to the rules, you'll just casually throw something in that's either super dependent on various circumstances, or some other unit's abilities, or is only true if you REALLY stretch the definition of the thing you said.

Its like saying "Space Marines are crazy OP. They shoot 30", get a bonus attack on the charge, infiltrate during deployment anywhere 9" from the enemy, fight twice, and reroll all hit rolls and wound rolls of 1."

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
With +1 T from Combat Drugs it's not too crazy, comparing them to Ork Boys they have the same 6++ as Deff Skulls and same T4. Their character kicks about as much butt as an Ork Warboss but is cheaper, that buff cost is basically baked into the Wyches.

I haven't seen any lists with foot-slogging Wyches, was that with the new codex? It is also very dependent on terrain and deployment type. Forests and Craters slow you down and don't really help your survivability much, while tonnes of ruins will make your unit invulnerable to the thing Wyches are supposed to be weak against (shooting).

It was last eddition that foot wyches were being taken but all that's happened since then is wyches got better and boards became automatically more favorable. It is not much stretch to say that it can work. It will work. The thing is - will it work better than bringing an under costed raider which just makes them better. No. The under costed raider will always work better. The raider also got a lot better from 8th edition. No one ever took raiders then.

It happened b.c of Magic Boxes, also Wyches are not really better for footing, they had a FnP before and wrapping kept things in place just as well as new No Escape. Also Having played wyches thoughout all of 8th and 9th, while I like the new wyches No escape and PFP better, they are not better for me, they have gotten worst.

Before you could take 3 of 1 weapon, now you can not, its 1 of each. I had 2 units with 3 Hydro Gauntlets, 1 unit of 3 Shardnets, and 1 with Razorflails (Sometimes 2 units of RF's and 1 unit of HG's), then a couple other Wych units to make sure i had 7 units to double up on the drug I wanted, these units were not a waste for me so it worked out (2x3 Reavers and a BM b.c I also had some birds for Engage on all Fronts).

I played Cursed blade so I had +1str. The Shardnet was the 2D melee unit got +1 to hits drug, this was great Anti-MEQ. The Hydro Gauntlet's unit was re-roll wounds unit with +1attks, very consistent damage, great for invuls units or high Toughness. Razorflails gave D3 more attacks, this was the blender unit with 3D3 more attacks, I gave it strength to make it over Str4 so I could wound on 3's, RF's also re-rolled hits meaning I didn't need a Succubus/Archon near (archon in ynnari).

B.c I also had a 6+++ they were able to survive longer (this is more noticeable than I would have thought after many games of 9th book now)

So I "had" dedicated rolls and they worked amazing well in those roles, now new Wyches will have equal or +1 more attack and are better vs "not optimized targets" but over all are worst vs optimized ones. B.c Hellions and Incubi are better now I can sub out the Shardnet units, but in total my wyches are less effective in 9th for damage and survivability, but are faster. Also they are WAY more annoying to roll for. I have Shardnet, HG, Power sword, and RZ/Blades pools i need to roll on top of Blade Artists pools.

Hellions are also using most of my Wych stratagems, so Wyches are not really getting those either. Which makes the wyches feel even worst than before (I'm not complaining about this really, b.c i LOVE that Hellions are finally good! just more of an observation, there are a couple stratagems more for the Wyches, but some will never be used on them if the hellions are there).

Magic boxes and walls play pretty much identically.

and they can fight twice.

Sorry what?

Are you talking about the Cult of Strife stratagem, which you dont get if you take them in Red Grief (the cult everyone was just saying you'd take foot wyches with) and which I'm fairly sure was also the cult of strife stratagem in the 8th dex?

Thought that was new. I guess fighting twice with ap 0 attacks was a lot less apealing than ap-1 and -2 attacks.

Do you understand that both walls and magic boxes stop you from shooting the unit behind them? As in identical in game play terms.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Do you understand that both walls and magic boxes stop you from shooting the unit behind them? As in identical in game play terms.

They're not identical, and you know it. Magic boxes made things *immune to shooting* unless the firing unit had a way to bypass LoS. Careful positioning also made them impossible to charge into in most circumstances.

That doesn't exist in 9th. Walls can be walked through, jumped over or around.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Thought that was new. I guess fighting twice with ap 0 attacks was a lot less apealing than ap-1 and -2 attacks.

It didnt get used because it was next to impossible to trigger. It cost 3 cp, and required the attacking unit to have destroyed a target in the fight phase. With the pillows that Wych units were packing in 8th, it was absurdly priced and effectively never came up.

 Tyran wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
(5 base and swap points on dark lance and disintigrator, so total of 10 point bump on DL raider, and 5 points on disi raider).

Nitpick, that would leave Disintegrator Raiders costing the same, not a 5 point bump.

+ 5 - 5 = 0 after all.

My bad I forgot to go back and change that -- I had a phone call in the middle of typing that up lol. I'll leave unedited it to show how easily distracted I can be.

90 point disi raiders and 95 point dark lance raiders just seems about right.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
With +1 T from Combat Drugs it's not too crazy, comparing them to Ork Boys they have the same 6++ as Deff Skulls and same T4. Their character kicks about as much butt as an Ork Warboss but is cheaper, that buff cost is basically baked into the Wyches.

I haven't seen any lists with foot-slogging Wyches, was that with the new codex? It is also very dependent on terrain and deployment type. Forests and Craters slow you down and don't really help your survivability much, while tonnes of ruins will make your unit invulnerable to the thing Wyches are supposed to be weak against (shooting).

It was last eddition that foot wyches were being taken but all that's happened since then is wyches got better and boards became automatically more favorable. It is not much stretch to say that it can work. It will work. The thing is - will it work better than bringing an under costed raider which just makes them better. No. The under costed raider will always work better. The raider also got a lot better from 8th edition. No one ever took raiders then.

It happened b.c of Magic Boxes, also Wyches are not really better for footing, they had a FnP before and wrapping kept things in place just as well as new No Escape. Also Having played wyches thoughout all of 8th and 9th, while I like the new wyches No escape and PFP better, they are not better for me, they have gotten worst.

Before you could take 3 of 1 weapon, now you can not, its 1 of each. I had 2 units with 3 Hydro Gauntlets, 1 unit of 3 Shardnets, and 1 with Razorflails (Sometimes 2 units of RF's and 1 unit of HG's), then a couple other Wych units to make sure i had 7 units to double up on the drug I wanted, these units were not a waste for me so it worked out (2x3 Reavers and a BM b.c I also had some birds for Engage on all Fronts).

I played Cursed blade so I had +1str. The Shardnet was the 2D melee unit got +1 to hits drug, this was great Anti-MEQ. The Hydro Gauntlet's unit was re-roll wounds unit with +1attks, very consistent damage, great for invuls units or high Toughness. Razorflails gave D3 more attacks, this was the blender unit with 3D3 more attacks, I gave it strength to make it over Str4 so I could wound on 3's, RF's also re-rolled hits meaning I didn't need a Succubus/Archon near (archon in ynnari).

B.c I also had a 6+++ they were able to survive longer (this is more noticeable than I would have thought after many games of 9th book now)

So I "had" dedicated rolls and they worked amazing well in those roles, now new Wyches will have equal or +1 more attack and are better vs "not optimized targets" but over all are worst vs optimized ones. B.c Hellions and Incubi are better now I can sub out the Shardnet units, but in total my wyches are less effective in 9th for damage and survivability, but are faster. Also they are WAY more annoying to roll for. I have Shardnet, HG, Power sword, and RZ/Blades pools i need to roll on top of Blade Artists pools.

Hellions are also using most of my Wych stratagems, so Wyches are not really getting those either. Which makes the wyches feel even worst than before (I'm not complaining about this really, b.c i LOVE that Hellions are finally good! just more of an observation, there are a couple stratagems more for the Wyches, but some will never be used on them if the hellions are there).

Magic boxes and walls play pretty much identically.

and they can fight twice.

Sorry what?

Are you talking about the Cult of Strife stratagem, which you dont get if you take them in Red Grief (the cult everyone was just saying you'd take foot wyches with) and which I'm fairly sure was also the cult of strife stratagem in the 8th dex?

Thought that was new. I guess fighting twice with ap 0 attacks was a lot less apealing than ap-1 and -2 attacks.

Do you understand that both walls and magic boxes stop you from shooting the unit behind them? As in identical in game play terms.

You understand you can walk around a wall and see right but in a magic box thats not possible. And it was 1 guy doing it a couple times not like it was something that was magically able to do at all times on top of that it was normally in Ynnari which you lose out on PFP now if you go Ynnari so no more Run and Charge for free, and no more obsessions Stratagems, etc...

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
With +1 T from Combat Drugs it's not too crazy, comparing them to Ork Boys they have the same 6++ as Deff Skulls and same T4. Their character kicks about as much butt as an Ork Warboss but is cheaper, that buff cost is basically baked into the Wyches.

I haven't seen any lists with foot-slogging Wyches, was that with the new codex? It is also very dependent on terrain and deployment type. Forests and Craters slow you down and don't really help your survivability much, while tonnes of ruins will make your unit invulnerable to the thing Wyches are supposed to be weak against (shooting).

It was last eddition that foot wyches were being taken but all that's happened since then is wyches got better and boards became automatically more favorable. It is not much stretch to say that it can work. It will work. The thing is - will it work better than bringing an under costed raider which just makes them better. No. The under costed raider will always work better. The raider also got a lot better from 8th edition. No one ever took raiders then.

It happened b.c of Magic Boxes, also Wyches are not really better for footing, they had a FnP before and wrapping kept things in place just as well as new No Escape. Also Having played wyches thoughout all of 8th and 9th, while I like the new wyches No escape and PFP better, they are not better for me, they have gotten worst.

Before you could take 3 of 1 weapon, now you can not, its 1 of each. I had 2 units with 3 Hydro Gauntlets, 1 unit of 3 Shardnets, and 1 with Razorflails (Sometimes 2 units of RF's and 1 unit of HG's), then a couple other Wych units to make sure i had 7 units to double up on the drug I wanted, these units were not a waste for me so it worked out (2x3 Reavers and a BM b.c I also had some birds for Engage on all Fronts).

I played Cursed blade so I had +1str. The Shardnet was the 2D melee unit got +1 to hits drug, this was great Anti-MEQ. The Hydro Gauntlet's unit was re-roll wounds unit with +1attks, very consistent damage, great for invuls units or high Toughness. Razorflails gave D3 more attacks, this was the blender unit with 3D3 more attacks, I gave it strength to make it over Str4 so I could wound on 3's, RF's also re-rolled hits meaning I didn't need a Succubus/Archon near (archon in ynnari).

B.c I also had a 6+++ they were able to survive longer (this is more noticeable than I would have thought after many games of 9th book now)

So I "had" dedicated rolls and they worked amazing well in those roles, now new Wyches will have equal or +1 more attack and are better vs "not optimized targets" but over all are worst vs optimized ones. B.c Hellions and Incubi are better now I can sub out the Shardnet units, but in total my wyches are less effective in 9th for damage and survivability, but are faster. Also they are WAY more annoying to roll for. I have Shardnet, HG, Power sword, and RZ/Blades pools i need to roll on top of Blade Artists pools.

Hellions are also using most of my Wych stratagems, so Wyches are not really getting those either. Which makes the wyches feel even worst than before (I'm not complaining about this really, b.c i LOVE that Hellions are finally good! just more of an observation, there are a couple stratagems more for the Wyches, but some will never be used on them if the hellions are there).

Magic boxes and walls play pretty much identically.

and they can fight twice.

Sorry what?

Are you talking about the Cult of Strife stratagem, which you dont get if you take them in Red Grief (the cult everyone was just saying you'd take foot wyches with) and which I'm fairly sure was also the cult of strife stratagem in the 8th dex?

Thought that was new. I guess fighting twice with ap 0 attacks was a lot less apealing than ap-1 and -2 attacks.

Do you understand that both walls and magic boxes stop you from shooting the unit behind them? As in identical in game play terms.

You understand you can walk around a wall and see right but in a magic box thats not possible. And it was 1 guy doing it a couple times not like it was something that was magically able to do at all times on top of that it was normally in Ynnari which you lose out on PFP now if you go Ynnari so no more Run and Charge for free, and no more obsessions Stratagems, etc...

Yeah I got that...how exactly are units crossing a 24" field to flank your units to get a shooting angle?

True now that I think of it - it was ynnari wyches that were being used.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Do you understand that both walls and magic boxes stop you from shooting the unit behind them? As in identical in game play terms.

They're not identical, and you know it. Magic boxes made things *immune to shooting* unless the firing unit had a way to bypass LoS. Careful positioning also made them impossible to charge into in most circumstances.

That doesn't exist in 9th. Walls can be walked through, jumped over or around.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Thought that was new. I guess fighting twice with ap 0 attacks was a lot less apealing than ap-1 and -2 attacks.

It didnt get used because it was next to impossible to trigger. It cost 3 cp, and required the attacking unit to have destroyed a target in the fight phase. With the pillows that Wych units were packing in 8th, it was absurdly priced and effectively never came up.

So -just to be clear...you can't shoot through walls right? Just like you couldn't shoot into a magic box. I know ruins/buildings don't work that way anymore...if you are behind them - they do stop the shooting. That is the point. That is all that matters if you want to take a foot wych unit. If you have a place on the front of your deployment zone that blocks los. You put wyches there. Any unit that move into the center of the table is getting charged by those wyches the next turn - no raider is required for this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like I am not trying to ne snarky here. You all act like it is rocket science to hide behind a wall.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Mostly, what i find tiresome in any discussion of an overtuned book is the inevitable hyperbole of "Everything in the book is the most broken thing in the world reeee". Back in 7th, there was much discussion about how broken such units as Shining Spears and Dire Avengers and Guardians were, because everything eldar is evil and monstrous, and back when marines were broken in 8th, you had people whining that dumb gak like...land speeders or scout bikers or whatever were somehow unfair too.

Because that is what people get to expiriance all around the world. There aren't many non liquifire wrecks being run, same as 8th ed armies falling in to one of few builds, which more often then not includes running Inari. Just because a book has something bad, doesn't make the whole faction more balanced, when the army lists is so perectly fit in to 2k points that it is practicaly pre build.

 Xenomancers wrote:

So -just to be clear...you can't shoot through walls right? Just like you couldn't shoot into a magic box. I know ruins/buildings don't work that way anymore...if you are behind them - they do stop the shooting. That is the point. That is all that matters if you want to take a foot wych unit. If you have a place on the front of your deployment zone that blocks los. You put wyches there. Any unit that move into the center of the table is getting charged by those wyches the next turn - no raider is required for this.

No, that's not the point. And it's becoming increasingly clear that you don't understand why foot Wyches don't work. As an opposing player, you dont care if the unit that wipes a block of Wyches dies. Taking out the hyper lethal melee threat with a small amount of shooting is a favorable trade that any sane player will take any day of the week. A basic ABR Intercessor team with a Captain aura is going to put down 7 of those Wyches in shooting. More if they have a Lieutenant backing them up or some other shooting boost.

Karol wrote:

Because that is what people get to expiriance all around the world. There aren't many non liquifire wrecks being run, same as 8th ed armies falling in to one of few builds, which more often then not includes running Inari. Just because a book has something bad, doesn't make the whole faction more balanced, when the army lists is so perectly fit in to 2k points that it is practicaly pre build.

Are you seriously back on your "it's a conspiracy because everything comes in multiples of 5s" nonsense again?

 Xenomancers wrote:

So -just to be clear...you can't shoot through walls right? Just like you couldn't shoot into a magic box. I know ruins/buildings don't work that way anymore...if you are behind them - they do stop the shooting. That is the point. That is all that matters if you want to take a foot wych unit. If you have a place on the front of your deployment zone that blocks los. You put wyches there. Any unit that move into the center of the table is getting charged by those wyches the next turn - no raider is required for this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like I am not trying to ne snarky here. You all act like it is rocket science to hide behind a wall.

You are correct if you're describing "Ruins" terrain, which honestly is the most common type of terrain I've played on.

You can only shoot THROUGH ruins if you're IN the Ruin. Which isn't hard to do, you can move your unit up towards it and have the bases barely touch the wall or terrain piece. It isn't hard to do, but it's not a trivial defense either.

Sterling191 797783 11130002 wrote:

Are you seriously back on your "it's a conspiracy because everything comes in multiples of 5s" nonsense again?

Nah, it is not question of being 5pts. It is the question of 3 patrols, led by specific characters, which are the most optimal options, alongs side every other unit fiting perfectly in to 2000pts. If it is not intended then I must say this is one hell of a lucky thing to happen, considering how many different things make up a DE army .

Plus how is it a conspiracy, if from the past we have people who worked for GW in the studio, saying that point costs are often adjusted just so people may buy more of a specific kit.

Karol wrote:

Nah, it is not question of being 5pts. It is the question of 3 patrols, led by specific characters, which are the most optimal options, alongs side every other unit fiting perfectly in to 2000pts. If it is not intended then I must say this is one hell of a lucky thing to happen, considering how many different things make up a DE army .

There are 27 units in the entire Drukhari codex. Three of those are named characters (two of which will never be run because their rules are garbage).

By comparison, there are 81 datasheets in the HQ slot for Space Marines alone (not including Forge World special characters).

Arguing that somehow the Drukhari lack of choice is an insidious, deliberate attempt on GW's part to make them magically stronger is absolute insanity.

Karol wrote:

Plus how is it a conspiracy, if from the past we have people who worked for GW in the studio, saying that point costs are often adjusted just so people may buy more of a specific kit.

You're literally defining a conspiracy theory here. Something, somewhere, once, may have happened, therefore it's happening again.

But it didn't happen once, and it was not somewhere the employe said that stuff like that happened multiple times, he even gave examples of it, there was no "may involved" he clearly mentioned the units and even talked about the feedback the instudio playtest team gave at the time .

And even now we have examples of, this time not designers, but playtesters, saying the same thing. That the stuff they tested for DE is not the stuff that ended up in the codex. If something happens multiple times, over time. Then it is just a patern.

Oh yes the broken DE rules were to increase sells of the stuff that is a) extremely common (every DE player has Raiders) and b) currently out of order.

GW sucks at balance, but the idea that it is some grand conspiracy is hilariously wrong.

There are 27 units in the entire Drukhari codex. Three of those are named characters (two of which will never be run because their rules are garbage).

By comparison, there are 81 datasheets in the HQ slot for Space Marines alone (not including Forge World special characters).

Arguing that somehow the Drukhari lack of choice is an insidious, deliberate attempt on GW's part to make them magically stronger is absolute insanity.

First of the special characters are split among multiple faction. And the rest is something that may as well have been a gear option. Marines have a ton of "options" , that are captin in armour X, captin in armour Y, chaplain in armour X, chaplain in armour Y etc. If those options were cut there would be a lot fewer marine options. Plus the number of options don't matter, if those options are dead ones that no one uses. How often is something like a chaplain in termintor armour seen outside of GK or a gravis captin with big gun, or the other one with the fist and sword combo? If one goes down to how many options for HQs are actualy used marines don't have many more then DE, and that is while being made up by multiple factions. If we considered eldar soups as one faction, then they actualy have more HQ options being used then what marines can use.

 Tyran wrote:
Oh yes the broken DE rules were to increase sells of the stuff that is a) extremely common (every DE player has Raiders) and b) currently out of order.

GW sucks at balance, but the idea that it is some grand conspiracy is hilariously wrong.

GW does not care about people who already bought the models and the armise. All they care is about new sells. Because that is what the investors are interested too.

Karol wrote:

If we considered eldar soups as one faction, then they actualy have more HQ options being used then what marines can use.

If we consider all Eldar one faction, then the appropriate comparison is IMPERIUM, not marines.