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First of the special characters are split among multiple faction. And the rest is something that may as well have been a gear option. Marines have a ton of "options" , that are captin in armour X, captin in armour Y, chaplain in armour X, chaplain in armour Y etc. If those options were cut there would be a lot fewer marine options. Plus the number of options don't matter, if those options are dead ones that no one uses.
Even if this were true (which it isnt, it's abject bs), you're now looking at...3 functional HQs from the Drukhari faction, and several dozen in the Marine lineup.
How exactly is having three viable HQs a good thing for an army?
If we considered eldar soups as one faction, then they actualy have more HQ options being used then what marines can use.
Make up your fething mind please. A Farseer existing somehow makes Drukhari broken, when the latter has rules explicitly prohibiting the former's use in parallel?
GW does not care about people who already bought the models and the armise. All they care is about new sells. Because that is what the investors are interested too.
Explain to me please how GW is making the investors happy when they literally have no stock to sell? You can't sell to new people if you don't have the kits. And GW flat out does not have the kits, nor have they had them for months.
Sterling191 wrote: Explain to me please how GW is making the investors happy when they literally have no stock to sell? You can't sell to new people if you don't have the kits. And GW flat out does not have the kits, nor have they had them for months.
Scarcity works well enough for brands like Apple and Nintendo, so why couldn't GW want to pump demand by making a very good unit scarce for a while? When the Raider does finally go back on sale they might predict that having been made scarce recently more people will rush to buy one than would have otherwise due to fear of the model going out of stock again.
Daedalus81 wrote: So I need to revise my earlier statement. DE wins more when they go first.
When DE go first they went 317-101 ( 76% ). And when they go second it is 302-173 ( 64% ).
Overall ( from Apr 10 forward ) with no mirror matches the first turn advantage is alive and well... 3063-2419 ( 56% ).
This isn't tournament data so no idea if the dynamic changes at all between the datasets.
It isn't tournament data? Then where is it coming from, if you don't mind me asking?
Where most stats online come from?
Well, most things that I'm aware of that track 40k stats only track tournament data. I'm not a tournament player, so if there's something that tracks non-tournament data, I'd like to see it.
Daedalus81 wrote: So I need to revise my earlier statement. DE wins more when they go first.
When DE go first they went 317-101 ( 76% ). And when they go second it is 302-173 ( 64% ).
Overall ( from Apr 10 forward ) with no mirror matches the first turn advantage is alive and well... 3063-2419 ( 56% ).
This isn't tournament data so no idea if the dynamic changes at all between the datasets.
It isn't tournament data? Then where is it coming from, if you don't mind me asking?
Where most stats online come from?
Well, most things that I'm aware of that track 40k stats only track tournament data. I'm not a tournament player, so if there's something that tracks non-tournament data, I'd like to see it.
That went over your head, didn't it?
Let me be more clear: they're making up.
Daedalus81 wrote: So I need to revise my earlier statement. DE wins more when they go first.
When DE go first they went 317-101 ( 76% ). And when they go second it is 302-173 ( 64% ).
Overall ( from Apr 10 forward ) with no mirror matches the first turn advantage is alive and well... 3063-2419 ( 56% ).
This isn't tournament data so no idea if the dynamic changes at all between the datasets.
It isn't tournament data? Then where is it coming from, if you don't mind me asking?
Where most stats online come from?
Well, most things that I'm aware of that track 40k stats only track tournament data. I'm not a tournament player, so if there's something that tracks non-tournament data, I'd like to see it.
That went over your head, didn't it?
Let me be more clear: they're making up.
Ah, sorry. It's been a long day, and I forgot you're usually a bit sardonic.
Daedalus81 wrote: So I need to revise my earlier statement. DE wins more when they go first.
When DE go first they went 317-101 ( 76% ). And when they go second it is 302-173 ( 64% ).
Overall ( from Apr 10 forward ) with no mirror matches the first turn advantage is alive and well... 3063-2419 ( 56% ).
This isn't tournament data so no idea if the dynamic changes at all between the datasets.
It isn't tournament data? Then where is it coming from, if you don't mind me asking?
ITC Battles App - so basically any random joe who punches a game into that. There will certainly be noise, but it is the only source where I can see who went first ( if they picked it ).
Daedalus81 wrote: So I need to revise my earlier statement. DE wins more when they go first.
When DE go first they went 317-101 ( 76% ). And when they go second it is 302-173 ( 64% ).
Overall ( from Apr 10 forward ) with no mirror matches the first turn advantage is alive and well... 3063-2419 ( 56% ).
This isn't tournament data so no idea if the dynamic changes at all between the datasets.
It isn't tournament data? Then where is it coming from, if you don't mind me asking?
ITC Battles App - so basically any random joe who punches a game into that. There will certainly be noise, but it is the only source where I can see who went first ( if they picked it ).
Ah, so still tournament players who are playing on tournament sized boards. Dang, I was hoping for data showing whether or not playing on larger than the minimum recommended sized boards affected 1st turn advantage. Still, it's more information. I'll get the app downloaded. Thanks Daed.
Even if this were true (which it isnt, it's abject bs), you're now looking at...3 functional HQs from the Drukhari faction, and several dozen in the Marine lineup.
And how many marines characters are being used? If you play DAs for example you don't use the majority. You will take the mounted ones, maybe the kamikaze chaplain, the master and that is it. If you play SW you spam the TWC options. Don't tell me there are tons of characters, that are used in different marine factions, because that just isn't true.
How exactly is having three viable HQs a good thing for an army?
Is this a trick question? Because my army for a long time had maybe 2. Right now it has 3,
Make up your fething mind please. A Farseer existing somehow makes Drukhari broken, when the latter has rules explicitly prohibiting the former's use in parallel?
No, but it does make harlequins better. And if somehow all marines are treated as a combined factions, why shouldn't the eldar be. You seem to be counting all the marine characters in multiple books and come to numbers used much higher then the 3 DE are using right now, but marines don't run mixed armies since the change in spring.
Explain to me please how GW is making the investors happy when they literally have no stock to sell? You can't sell to new people if you don't have the kits. And GW flat out does not have the kits, nor have they had them for months.
But there is need to buy it, because DE are a powerful army. The way DEinterest is general, would only not be a good thing, if by the time GW has them to sell, the rules change and DE, or specific units, are no longer a wanted by players. But the past shows us, that fixing something too good takes GW months. Just look how long it took them to fix Inari or Castellans.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Drukhari have historically just... accumulated transports because they come in package deals. I have 4 venoms and 5 raiders despite never actually having bought one individually. One of those Raiders is from a Ravager packaged in when I was already at the three-boat limit.
As conspiracies go, ginning up demand for something that I have never had to shop for seems kind of weak.
Yeah most DE players don't buy just the Raiders/Venoms by themselves, it seems most the kits comes with 1 other them. I have 8 Venoms and 10 Raiders (2 old school ones) I've only actually bought 2 Venoms and 2 Raiders.
And how many marines characters are being used? If you play DAs for example you don't use the majority. You will take the mounted ones, maybe the kamikaze chaplain, the master and that is it. If you play SW you spam the TWC options. Don't tell me there are tons of characters, that are used in different marine factions, because that just isn't true.
You're literally listing the circumstances under which it's true, then turning around and claiming it isn't. Stop lying.
Is this a trick question? Because my army for a long time had maybe 2. Right now it has 3,
No it is not a trick question. I'll repeat it so you might begin to understand the logical fallacy you've painted yourself into.
Your argument is that Drukhari are somehow designed to be powerful because they somehow fit a good list into 2000 points. You claim that a component of that is their lack of HQ options. Now you're turning around and saying the exact opposite, that having only a tiny number of HQs is a bad thing.
Pick a claim and stick to it please.
No, but it does make harlequins better. And if somehow all marines are treated as a combined factions, why shouldn't the eldar be. You seem to be counting all the marine characters in multiple books and come to numbers used much higher then the 3 DE are using right now, but marines don't run mixed armies since the change in spring.
Harlequins are not a chapter of Eldar. Craftworlds are not a chapter of Eldar. Drukhari are not a chapter of Eldar. If you want to continue down this bs path of "combine all the elves so I can moan about them more", the appropriate analogy is Imperium. Which is where your bitching falls down again. A Techpriest does not make a Scion army better. A Cannoness does not make a Marine army better. A Chaplain does not make a Knight army better.
Eldar have progressively (and in the case of 9th edition codices like Drukhari nearly definitively) introduced more and more restrictions on allied play, to the point where mono-faction play is extremely incentivized.
But there is need to buy it, because DE are a powerful army. The way DEinterest is general, would only not be a good thing, if by the time GW has them to sell, the rules change and DE, or specific units, are no longer a wanted by players. But the past shows us, that fixing something too good takes GW months. Just look how long it took them to fix Inari or Castellans.
So let's review:
There's a conspiracy within GW to make Drukhari an overpowered army, and sell more products that they don't even have to sell, but somehow players don't need to buy them? Somehow the models just appear in players hands and GW rakes in profit?
That makes sense.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/22 13:59:09
DE has had the same 10 playable units for 11yrs now with 2-3 other units coming and going as playable. 3 other units has been in literally every kit GW has made (outside of new Combat Patrol) for 10yrs now (Scourges, Reavers, Hellions). Actual DE players hasn't needed to buy DE for a long time now and many players that likes DE that has been in the game for a bit has acquired most of what is needed. Anytime a new book comes out you will get new players for that army so you don't need to hype up the book to OP levels to get new players.
If GW wanted to actually push DE stock, give us back many of the old characters, real Trueborn/Bloodbrides/Haemoxytes, Vect and Dias, etc.. make players excited to buy DE models again and not 10-11yr long played units instead a new Lelith sculpt that a large part of the DE community literally gives zero gaks about.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ah, so still tournament players who are playing on tournament sized boards. Dang, I was hoping for data showing whether or not playing on larger than the minimum recommended sized boards affected 1st turn advantage. Still, it's more information. I'll get the app downloaded. Thanks Daed.
Yea I don't think we'll ever have that granularity. Do note the app doesn't have the data. I had to ping the creator and loaded the raw file into a database.
It's a really handy app though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/22 18:04:03
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ah, so still tournament players who are playing on tournament sized boards. Dang, I was hoping for data showing whether or not playing on larger than the minimum recommended sized boards affected 1st turn advantage. Still, it's more information. I'll get the app downloaded. Thanks Daed.
Yea I don't think we'll ever have that granularity. Do note the app doesn't have the data. I had to ping the creator and loaded the raw file into a database.
It's a really handy app though.
Yeah, it seems to be mostly for keeping track of your own games. Would be nice if they made some of the collected data available through it. Oh well. So another week and still no Charadon FAQ. Maybe they're waiting to do it in the big Spring FAQ, whenever that happens.
Your argument is that Drukhari are somehow designed to be powerful because they somehow fit a good list into 2000 points. You claim that a component of that is their lack of HQ options. Now you're turning around and saying the exact opposite, that having only a tiny number of HQs is a bad thing.
Pick a claim and stick to it please.
How can you not see how both things can be true?
1) A powerful build is intentionally designed & intentionally pointed to fit within the standard size game. In order to make it easy for players not to mess it up HQ wise, the choices that fit there are then intentionally limited. Sure, you CAN use other stuff. Effectiveness may vary. But if you simply follow the pts recipe you'll default to the good list. Hmm, I wonder what GW was intending to sell me....
2) The flip side to this nicely synced up list with its obvious HQ choices is that it'll get boring to play with & against.
If however there were more equally viable choices.... Like I said, you can vary it at the cost of efficiency. But let's admit it, most of you will not.
There's a conspiracy within GW to make Drukhari an overpowered army, and sell more products that they don't even have to sell, but somehow players don't need to buy them? Somehow the models just appear in players hands and GW rakes in profit?
That makes sense.
Well I'm sure they wrote those rules based on normal business plans. And then things got derailed by pandemics, fouled up inventory system overhauls, Brexit (?), and no doubt "Higher than expected demand" (shocking, who'd have guessed good/broken rules = higher sales?)
Well I'm sure they wrote those rules based on normal business plans. And then things got derailed by pandemics, fouled up inventory system overhauls, Brexit (?), and no doubt "Higher than expected demand" (shocking, who'd have guessed good/broken rules = higher sales?)
Again, just because I have to fact-check this every 2 posts apparently: EVERYTHING drukhari was out of stock BEFORE anyone had seen any of the rules. BEFORE the full leaks were available.
The only way you could possibly make the claim of 'broken drukhari rules = everything out of stock' is if you assume everyone was just magically psychic and knew sight unseen that the dark eldar were about to get busted rules.
or I suppose you could just fall back on the old classic mantra of the Grand GW Conspiracy Theory - "GW tries to make every new unit OP to sell them because theyre evil, but theyre so mind-bogglingly incompetent at rules design that they feth it up so frequently that from the outside it looks like new units end up scattered all over the spectrum of competitiveness."
That's one of the only two tools you've got in the box. The other tool is just "Relying on everyone just forgetting about every new unit that comes out that isn't OP." Just pure monkey brain pattern seeking behavior.
The new Admech codex just leaked - Ironstrider Balistarii and Onager Dunecrawlers essentially make the much newer Scorpius Disintegrator and gunsy flyer totally redundant as a heavy fire support unit. but see, um, that still fits with the Grand GW-spiracy, because um, theyve already sold everyone the OP gun flyers, and um, nobody has Onager Dunecrawlers already since those weren't in the start collecting set that everyone bought tons of, those are being made OP because GW wants to...sell lots of them...
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
1) A powerful build is intentionally designed & intentionally pointed to fit within the standard size game. In order to make it easy for players not to mess it up HQ wise, the choices that fit there are then intentionally limited. Sure, you CAN use other stuff. Effectiveness may vary. But if you simply follow the pts recipe you'll default to the good list. Hmm, I wonder what GW was intending to sell me....
Now we've evolved to "all the HQ removals from 7th and 8th editions were actually a deep state plot to set up the broken build in 9th".
Well I'm sure they wrote those rules based on normal business plans. And then things got derailed by pandemics, fouled up inventory system overhauls, Brexit (?), and no doubt "Higher than expected demand" (shocking, who'd have guessed good/broken rules = higher sales?)
So it's COVID's fault that GW's dastardly conspiracy to juice up a faction to boost sales failed? Despite the line being out of stock long before the rules updates were released?
Unpopular opinion. My thoughts on Drukhari being OP is -good for the players who have patiently waited for their army to finally have a chance. I remember speculating on if they were going to discontinue the Dark Eldar because they went so long without updates and new units.
Well I'm sure they wrote those rules based on normal business plans. And then things got derailed by pandemics, fouled up inventory system overhauls, Brexit (?), and no doubt "Higher than expected demand" (shocking, who'd have guessed good/broken rules = higher sales?)
Again, just because I have to fact-check this every 2 posts apparently: EVERYTHING drukhari was out of stock BEFORE anyone had seen any of the rules. BEFORE the full leaks were available.
The only way you could possibly make the claim of 'broken drukhari rules = everything out of stock' is if you assume everyone was just magically psychic and knew sight unseen that the dark eldar were about to get busted rules.
or I suppose you could just fall back on the old classic mantra of the Grand GW Conspiracy Theory - "GW tries to make every new unit OP to sell them because theyre evil, but theyre so mind-bogglingly incompetent at rules design that they feth it up so frequently that from the outside it looks like new units end up scattered all over the spectrum of competitiveness."
That's one of the only two tools you've got in the box. The other tool is just "Relying on everyone just forgetting about every new unit that comes out that isn't OP." Just pure monkey brain pattern seeking behavior.
No. Clearly there's something wrong with your understanding of how things work.
1) MY point is that the codex was designed & written on the assumption of Business As Usual.
They do not write this stuff based on wether or not the inventory system is fethed up, there's a pandemic derailing production/shipping, international politics etc. It doesn't matter to the rules writers wether the warehouse is empty. Or it can't be shipped/bought. Their job is to write the damned book. They did that.
Now if you'd like to debate the wisdom of corporate releasing the Codex with no/little product to back it up? That I'll agree seems not the best idea (at least from the customers PoV)....
2) I maintain, based on decades of playing these games, reading the assorted army books, building armies, etc that they intentionally design certain builds to sell particular models.
They do this so that A) the average army of whatever faction has a particular look & style, B) it's easy for a player to make an effective army.
This is not a conspiracy by the eeevil toy company. It's just a business plan. And it's not unique to GW.
That the inventory system is fethed up, or pandemics & politics are interfering is not a factor.
Yes, they do intentionally write op rules. Not all the time, for everything, but often enough. Why? Because they know that'll sell books/models & generate buzz. And after a while they'll just issue a FAQ/errata to "fix" some of it. Maybe say something about having made an error, maybe not. Claim "based on tournament data".... As a bonus they'll then sell you another book to to fix it (what, you're going to tell me you're not all waiting on the next CA?).
And the masses accept this & go on grumbling about the incompetence of the designers to balance things. Incompetence my .
Oh, and again, this is based on the assumption of Business As Usual. That the inventory system is fethed up, or pandemics & politics interfering with sales is not a factor.
Were it Business As Usual sales wise? GW would in-fact be selling plenty of Raiders, etc both directly & through shops. Exactly as originally planned. As is? It's your local shops that're now out of stock & can't resupply.
And the demand is not because the customers are psychic. Some of them read the book. Others? Well, advertising works. Youtube channels, tourney reports, threads like these - all going on about how xyz is OP....
I do not believe GW is evil.
I most certainly do not believe GW is incompetent.
Now we've evolved to "all the HQ removals from 7th and 8th editions were actually a deep state plot to set up the broken build in 9th".
That's just brilliant.
Do you really think that something like draz was point costed for his actually table top efficiency OR to make him an option you would be foolish not to take? Same with incubi. And it is not that other armies don't get aggresivly pointed new options. Blade guard for marines marines are very good or Ctan for necron. The difference between all prior armies and DE is, that before you couldn't make a 2000pts army out of new stuff. As CCS said, the army feels as if it was designed first and then point costs were allocted to it to fit the standard size game. And it is not like GW has not done stuff like that in the past. I don't understand why people think this is some sort of conspiracy. Heck it is not even a bad thing, because it means someone at the studio sat down and thought how the army should look and function. A lot better then some random collection of units being thrown at people, with the idea behind it being, do something out of it.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Do you really think that something like draz was point costed for his actually table top efficiency OR to make him an option you would be foolish not to take?
Drazhar is a goddamn Phoenix Lord. He finally has the statline to back it up. Yet now that he's able to actually function in his stated role, it's a mind game by GW to force you to run him?
Karol wrote: And it is not that other armies don't get aggresivly pointed new options. Blade guard for marines marines are very good or Ctan for necron. The difference between all prior armies and DE is, that before you couldn't make a 2000pts army out of new stuff.
Literally nothing in the codex is new. All of it existed in prior editions. Three models got re-sculpts, and did not change their fundamental role in the army. The difference is now that two of those re-sculpts can actually do something on the table. The third, which you consistently and conveniently choose to ignore because it doesnt feed into your paranoia, is at best a fluff pick.
Compare that with, say your poster boy Marines who got close to a dozen new units in their updated 9th edition book. Units that had never existed prior to the book. Yet somehow those *actually* new units didn't get an internal conspiracy to make them sell?
And it is not like GW has not done stuff like that in the past. I don't understand why people think this is some sort of conspiracy.
Because you're quite literally sitting there telling people that it is. That a shadowy cabal within GW got together and hatched a plan to write a superpowered codex to sell more models.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/25 17:44:48
Bosskelot wrote: Yeah the best units in the Drukhari Codex right now are models they've had since the 2010-2011 reboot.
And pretty much all of them are models every Drukhari player is drowning in already.
Except for wraks - I've never owned a wrak.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Jjohnso11 wrote: Unpopular opinion. My thoughts on Drukhari being OP is -good for the players who have patiently waited for their army to finally have a chance. I remember speculating on if they were going to discontinue the Dark Eldar because they went so long without updates and new units.
It's not just unpopular, it's silly. Drukhari were doing great in 8th and okay in 9th and did not need a 70% win rate to make up for anything.
8th Edition Dark Eldar Codex was an awful mess with awful internal balance, with more than half of the units being unplayable even in casual games.
We had a couple lists that played well, spammed Venoms with Blasters and "before being nerfed" Dark Technomancers.
I only play since 2017 or so, but I had no fun playing them in 8th, it just felt "meh".
No one needs a 68% winrate, that's true, but with the right tuning, we'll have a really fun book that plays the way Drukhari are supposed to play.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/25 18:02:13
A 55% win rate is close to broken, a 70% one has simply no reason to exist.
I think that with adequate point adjustments the faction can still be fun to play but be less oppressive.
Aenar wrote: A 55% win rate is close to broken, a 70% one has simply no reason to exist.
I think that with adequate point adjustments the faction can still be fun to play but be less oppressive.
The win rate last weekend was like 62% and they took home no 1st places. I think the meta is, indeed, starting to adjust.
Also, the Art of War guys are streaming a match with the new AdMech codex today and it looks as bonkers as it needs to be to bring balance to the Force.
up.
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
