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At the moment, there are basically two "tiers" of subfaction (e.g. Chapter, Legion, Regiment, Hive Fleet):
Actual, official subfactions, e.g. Raven Guard, World Eaters, Cadia. These have a fixed set of Detachment bonuses, but also get access to a unique Warlord Trait, a unique Relic, a unique Stratagem, sometimes unique units or characters, and sometimes another unique bonus like a Canticle or Order.
"Custom" subfactions. These have mix-and-match Detachment bonuses chosen from a list, but don't get access to any other unique qualities.
(for the purposes of this post I'm ignoring Space Marines, who introduced a 3-tier system by way of giving a whole book to each of its official subfactions)
This makes sense, because you can't give a custom Stratagem/Relic/Warlord trait to every single possible combination of custom subfaction abilities. CADIA can have a characteristic Stratagem, but who's to say what's characteristic about your custom regiment? But what if, instead, all these bonuses were custom - and all came with a keyword, which in turn opened up different Stratagems and Relics etc?
For example, the Kabal of the Flayed Skull has the Kabal Obsession: Slay from the Skies. This gives its VEHICLES +2M, and also lets its FLY units (including embarked models) ignore light cover. That Kabal also has access to the Masters of the Shadowed Sky Stratagem, which for 1CP gives a unit +1 to hit against enemies that can FLY, or +2 against AIRCRAFT, and the Warlord trait Famed Savagery, which gives +1S and +1A, and the Obsidian Veil Relic, which gives a 4+ invulnerable save.
However, there's also the Mobile Raiders custom obsession, which gives FLY units (i.e. also VEHICLES) +2M, same as the first half of Slay from the Skies... but no access to the other stuff. What if, instead of the Kabal of the Flayed Skull, you could pick two keywords:
SAVAGE: Mobile Raiders: VEHICLES have +2" Movement.
SKYBORN: Slay from the Skies: Models that can FLY or are embarked on TRANSPORTS that can FLY ignore Light Cover when shooting.
Then the Masters of the Shadowed Sky Stratagem reads "Use this Stratagem when you select a SKYBORN unit from your army to shoot with", and Famed Savagery reads "SAVAGE ARCHON only", and Obsidian Veil might read "SAVAGE SKYBORN ARCHON only". Pick both of those Obsessions, and your Detachment will be a SAVAGE SKYBORN DRUKHARI Detachment, which is noted to be how the Flayed Skull operates. Or you might drop Mobile Raiders in favour of Torturous Efficiency, and have a PRECISE SKYBORN DRUKHARI Detachment; no access to the Famed Savagery trait, but you have another unique benefit instead. Or swap Slay from the Skies for Twisted Hunters and have a SAVAGE HUNTERS DRUKHARI Detachment, etc. All-Consuming Stratagems can come with two keywords; one unique to itself, one shared with another.
You might give each keyword its own Stratagem/Warlord Trait/Relic, or give half of them Stratagems, half of them Relics, and tie the Warlord Trait to a shared combo, or just change it up as you see fit. Give just a dozen keywords each their own Stratagem, and you're looking at 80+ potential combinations.
The main pitfall I see here is internal balancing; 9e's been better about it so far, but there are still (and always will be) custom Detachment abilities that are just Better than others, so allowing for absolutely free mix-and-matching could mean others get ignored... unless you use combined keyword requirements to incentivize less straightforward ones, anyway. Gaming the system will always a problem.
At the moment, there are basically two "tiers" of subfaction (e.g. Chapter, Legion, Regiment, Hive Fleet):
Actual, official subfactions, e.g. Raven Guard, World Eaters, Cadia. These have a fixed set of Detachment bonuses, but also get access to a unique Warlord Trait, a unique Relic, a unique Stratagem, sometimes unique units or characters, and sometimes another unique bonus like a Canticle or Order.
"Custom" subfactions. These have mix-and-match Detachment bonuses chosen from a list, but don't get access to any other unique qualities.
(for the purposes of this post I'm ignoring Space Marines, who introduced a 3-tier system by way of giving a whole book to each of its official subfactions)
This makes sense, because you can't give a custom Stratagem/Relic/Warlord trait to every single possible combination of custom subfaction abilities. CADIA can have a characteristic Stratagem, but who's to say what's characteristic about your custom regiment? But what if, instead, all these bonuses were custom - and all came with a keyword, which in turn opened up different Stratagems and Relics etc?
For example, the Kabal of the Flayed Skull has the Kabal Obsession: Slay from the Skies. This gives its VEHICLES +2M, and also lets its FLY units (including embarked models) ignore light cover. That Kabal also has access to the Masters of the Shadowed Sky Stratagem, which for 1CP gives a unit +1 to hit against enemies that can FLY, or +2 against AIRCRAFT, and the Warlord trait Famed Savagery, which gives +1S and +1A, and the Obsidian Veil Relic, which gives a 4+ invulnerable save.
However, there's also the Mobile Raiders custom obsession, which gives FLY units (i.e. also VEHICLES) +2M, same as the first half of Slay from the Skies... but no access to the other stuff. What if, instead of the Kabal of the Flayed Skull, you could pick two keywords:
SAVAGE: Mobile Raiders: VEHICLES have +2" Movement.
SKYBORN: Slay from the Skies: Models that can FLY or are embarked on TRANSPORTS that can FLY ignore Light Cover when shooting.
Then the Masters of the Shadowed Sky Stratagem reads "Use this Stratagem when you select a SKYBORN unit from your army to shoot with", and Famed Savagery reads "SAVAGE ARCHON only", and Obsidian Veil might read "SAVAGE SKYBORN ARCHON only". Pick both of those Obsessions, and your Detachment will be a SAVAGE SKYBORN DRUKHARI Detachment, which is noted to be how the Flayed Skull operates. Or you might drop Mobile Raiders in favour of Torturous Efficiency, and have a PRECISE SKYBORN DRUKHARI Detachment; no access to the Famed Savagery trait, but you have another unique benefit instead. Or swap Slay from the Skies for Twisted Hunters and have a SAVAGE HUNTERS DRUKHARI Detachment, etc. All-Consuming Stratagems can come with two keywords; one unique to itself, one shared with another.
You might give each keyword its own Stratagem/Warlord Trait/Relic, or give half of them Stratagems, half of them Relics, and tie the Warlord Trait to a shared combo, or just change it up as you see fit. Give just a dozen keywords each their own Stratagem, and you're looking at 80+ potential combinations.
The main pitfall I see here is internal balancing; 9e's been better about it so far, but there are still (and always will be) custom Detachment abilities that are just Better than others, so allowing for absolutely free mix-and-matching could mean others get ignored... unless you use combined keyword requirements to incentivize less straightforward ones, anyway. Gaming the system will always a problem.
158 more Stratagems to the bloat throne? No thanks.
5-25 White Dwarf or campaign book sub-factions with bad but flavourful custom chapter tactics combinations and 1-3 Stratagems, relics and WL traits each, powerful enough to make the bad chapter tactic worthwhile? Yes, please.
Replace all current Stratagems, WL traits, Doctrines, Super Doctrines and Chapter Tactics with universal WL traits and a system to pick a small number of Stratagems from when creating army? Heck yes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/25 09:59:03
vict0988 wrote: 158 more Stratagems to the bloat throne? No thanks.
5-25 White Dwarf or campaign book sub-factions with bad but flavourful custom chapter tactics combinations and 1-3 Stratagems, relics and WL traits each, powerful enough to make the bad chapter tactic worthwhile? Yes, please.
I suppose. I guess I'm just pining for the days of the old Regimental Doctrines and Chapter Traits, where Your Dudes weren't any less special than the Imperial Fists or Catachans; if your custom regiment was suited to being Veterans, Jungle Fighters, and Hardened Fighters, who fielded Special Weapon Squads and Ogryn Squads... then that was that, you had the same outcome as Catachans. The system that described Catachans also described you. It all felt very neat and organic. Though iirc Cadia got some favouritism with extra free doctrines, and I have no idea whether some doctrines ever saw play (or didn't) on a competitive level. It also felt like a system very vulnerable to being "solved" and thereby cutting out large chunks of the variety that made it appealing in the first place.
vict0988 wrote: Replace all current Stratagems, WL traits, Doctrines, Super Doctrines and Chapter Tactics with universal WL traits and a system to pick a small number of Stratagems from when creating army? Heck yes.
You're talking about something more like AoS Command abilities? Not a fat, army-wide list, but a decentralized set of abilities that cost CP and are tied to different units/traits? I could see that working, honestly. If you break down, say, the ADEPTA SORORITAS Stratagems, you've got:
2x "When mustering your army" Stratagems, which are really more part of the army-building rules.
14x unit (or weapon)-specific Stratagems, which could be moved directly onto the datasheet like an AoS Command ability.
6x Subfaction-specific Stratagems, which, sure, can stick around as "Command abilities" added by the Subfaction.
5x Miracle dice Stratagems, which could be included in the Acts of Faith ability as special Command abilities.
2x Shield of Faith/Sacred Rites Stratagems; again, you could fold those into the abilities themselves.
1x Martyred, which is essentially just a free Warlord trait and doesn't need to be a Stratagem at all.
This leaves you with a grand total of just four Stratagems that couldn't just be folded into a specific datasheet or ability: Judgement of the Faithful (Fall Back and Shoot/Charge), Holy Rage (Advance + Charge), Suffer Not The Witch (anti-PSYKER bonus), and Holy Trinity (bolt weapon + flame weapon + melta weapon combo buff).
It's definitely an interesting thought.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/26 11:18:30
No, I do not like unit locked Stratagems, I think they are a waste of space.
Instead of having an SM Stratagem that makes a Primaris unit tough for a phase and a Necron Stratagem that makes a Skorpekh unit tough for a phase I would just have a generic Stratagem that makes any unit tough for a phase. Balance units around the possible Stratagems they can benefit from.
When players make a list they pick 5 of the 30ish Stratagems from Chapter Approved and don't get any other Stratagems or army rules.
Increase CP costs of Detachments until soup is under control. There is no benefit to playing White Scars and Blood Angels together unless you want to make use of Relics and unique units, so it should not be too hard.
vict0988 wrote: No, I do not like unit locked Stratagems, I think they are a waste of space.
In what sense? Surely they just add an extra, resource-based dimension to individual units? What's the difference, in principle, between certain vehicles having Smoke Launcher wargear they can activate once per game, as opposed to a Smoke Launcher Stratagem they can activate at a CP cost?
When players make a list they pick 5 of the 30ish Stratagems from Chapter Approved and don't get any other Stratagems or army rules.
Increase CP costs of Detachments until soup is under control. There is no benefit to playing White Scars and Blood Angels together unless you want to make use of Relics and unique units, so it should not be too hard.
By "army rules" you're referring to... what, Chapter Tactics/Order Convictions/Kabal Obsessions? Or Combat Doctrines/Sacred Rites/Power From Pain? Or both?
vict0988 wrote: No, I do not like unit locked Stratagems, I think they are a waste of space.
In what sense? Surely they just add an extra, resource-based dimension to individual units? What's the difference, in principle, between certain vehicles having Smoke Launcher wargear they can activate once per game, as opposed to a Smoke Launcher Stratagem they can activate at a CP cost?
Smokescreen Stratagem is a gotcha ability that your opponent might not know you have and can be used in addition to shooting normally, Smoke Launcher ability is activated in your turn at the cost of shooting and if your opponent asks what abilities your Chimera has you are obligated to explain the Smoke Launcher ability. If you have 30 Stratagems then that is too many to explain, either the game is slowed massively or the onus becomes on the opponent to get home and study for next battle so they don't get gotcha'd.
When players make a list they pick 5 of the 30ish Stratagems from Chapter Approved and don't get any other Stratagems or army rules.
Increase CP costs of Detachments until soup is under control. There is no benefit to playing White Scars and Blood Angels together unless you want to make use of Relics and unique units, so it should not be too hard.
By "army rules" you're referring to... what, Chapter Tactics/Order Convictions/Kabal Obsessions? Or Combat Doctrines/Sacred Rites/Power From Pain? Or both?
Both. Combat Doctrines were made to combat the doctrine of including 32 loyal Guardsmen in many SM armies, but now that they cost CP instead of granting CP that is not a problem any longer. If you balance SM anti-tank, AM anti-tank and SOB anti-tank then there is no reason to soup for a more effective anti-tank unit. I also don't think that soup is bad as long as it is not mandatory, I think somewhere between 10% and 40% of the meta should be soup. Time will tell whether Daemons and CSM will be used in soup lists or whether pure armies will be tonnes better with their Combat Doctrine-esque ability.
Necron Command Protocols are a huge problem for new players, the rules for it are super dense and they apply when you make the simplest army (a single detachment with units from a single Dynasty/Chapter). I think extra rules should be optional and have a cost in the form of specialist detachments, the new player experience is important and people are thrown into the deep end with Command Protocols and Combat Doctrines + Super Doctrines. I honestly cannot believe that they got completely new players to try it out, it is standard practice to not only use hardcore gamers and veterans when testing games, otherwise your feedback is going to be skewed. A veteran having to remember the changes from last codex and edition and a Command Protocols? Doable. Teaching a new player one of these rules on top of everything else? Cruel.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/26 06:29:29
vict0988 wrote: Smokescreen Stratagem is a gotcha ability that your opponent might not know you have and can be used in addition to shooting normally, Smoke Launcher ability is activated in your turn at the cost of shooting and if your opponent asks what abilities your Chimera has you are obligated to explain the Smoke Launcher ability. If you have 30 Stratagems then that is too many to explain, either the game is slowed massively or the onus becomes on the opponent to get home and study for next battle so they don't get gotcha'd.
Okay, but if Smoke Launchers is just listed on the datasheet as a Command Ability which that unit can use by spending Command Points, then what's the difference in accessibility?
At the moment the Scout Sentinel's abilities (for example) read:
Explodes: If a model in this unit is reduced to 0 wounds, roll a D6 before removing the model from the battlefield. On a 6 it explodes, and each unit within 3" suffers 1 mortal wound. Scout Vehicle: At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, you can move this unit up to 9". It cannot end this move within 9" of any enemy models. Smoke Launchers: Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, this unit can use its smoke launchers; until your next Shooting phase your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls for ranged weapons that target it.
What's the difference if instead it reads:
Explodes: If a model in this unit is reduced to 0 wounds, roll a D6 before removing the model from the battlefield. On a 6 it explodes, and each unit within 3" suffers 1 mortal wound. Scout Vehicle: At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, you can move this unit up to 9". It cannot end this move within 9" of any enemy models. Smoke Launchers (CP1): Use this Command ability in your Shooting phase, when you select this unit to shoot. Until your next Shooting phase, your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls for ranged weapons that target this unit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/26 11:39:34
The difference is they cost CP during the game instead of just points before the game and you cannot use the same Stratagem several times in a phase, unlike an ability which can be spammed. One is not better than the other, I was just tunnel-visioning and trying to win the argument.
In concept, I like this proposal. As an aeldari player, I've often felt like GW and I have a different understanding of what a given subfaction should look like. For instance, they seem to think that the appeal of the Poisoned Tongue Kabal is literal poison and not sadistic cunning. The craftworld traits encourage you to field large squads of living bodies in Iyanden lists (Iyanden being known for simply not having a lot of living bodies), and the chapter tactic given to the all-aspects-all-the-time craftworld benefits weapons that most types of aspect warrior don't wield.
So being able to divorce my preferred faction's name from the rules assigned to it has a certain appeal for that reason alone. Plus, they seem to be really bad about having redundant subfaction bonuses that compete against each other. Like, wych cults have at least three subfaction options that boil down to, "hurt things better in the Fight phase," so some of those options are likely to end up just being inferior versions of others. Breaking up all subfaction bonuses into a build-your-own menu could help with that. You wouldn't have White Scars rules and then mobility-boosting-but-pointless-because-White-Scars-are-Faster rules if all marine armies were using the same chapter tactic to represent their army's swiftness.
That said, I agree that creating a huge number of new strats is probably best avoided. What I'd be tempted to do is to have like... eight-ish keywords that are unlocked by various sub-faction traits. For instance, the craftworld trait options include one that lets you heal 1 wound on your vehicles each turn and one that lets you reroll to-hit/wound rolls because your equipment is just so darn-well made. So both of those traits might include a sentence like...
"Units with this trait gain the TECH-MASTERS keyword."
Then, you have a single TECH-MASTERS stratagem, warlord trait, etc. So if my craftworld traits end up giving me the TECH-MASTERS and STEALTHY keywords, I could select from the TECH-MASTERS and STEALTHy warlord traits and relics and use their corresponding stratagems during the game.
Decouples the faction names from the rules, makes the named traits/strats/relics accessible to more armies, and theoretically results in about 8 faction strats/relics/traits instead of 24 or whatever.
Mostly-unrelated: I kind of wish all faction traits focused on making your army different rather than better. Instead of strats that straight up give me rerolls on some of my best attacks or let me ignore X% of incoming damage, I'd rather have slightly wordier traits that did things like introducing a blip mechanic for stealthy armies, made some units troops, let certain units perform special actions not available to other factions. That sort of thing. One of the pitfalls of the subfaction design so far is that many of the options are vertical power boosts, and some of those options are more vertical than others rendering many of the options strictly inferior.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
