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In the end if they swapped half the primarchs to women and half the space marine characters to women would their characters really change so much? I mean none of them really partake in actions that couldn't be performed by either sex. I mean instead of bringing the father of the Legion they would just be the mother. And instead of brothers it would just be both brother and sister.

Well, that's not necessarily true as it's noted in the HH series that the Primarchs were basically all petty little a-holes each vying for daddies love they were never going to get while also having huge testosterone fights over literally nothing. The Primarch's defining characteristics would be roughly the same (Lorgar's fanaticism, Angron being angry, Khan being wild) but the personal relationships between them would be vastly different.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
They were also clearly designed as male. Orks are weird in the sense that they only have one biological sex, and it is male. Hence why their basic unit is called "Boyz" and why their characters are always referred with male pronouns.

Compare them with Tyranids, which truly have no gender.

Nids are likely all female. Plus, no one has issues with orks being all one gender. If every faction was shown equally then I doubt this discussion would even be started lol.

no, obviously it would not. marines are by such a massive, hilarious margin the only faction the game seems to be concerned with and they are all male that it creates this weird situation where like, if you actually want to get a female head out of a games workshop kit you have to go hunting around for it like a little minigame.

I've used the like 4 spare heads I got out of a sprue of sisters of silence for models for Necromunda, models for the Inquisition, and models for GSC because hey, it's a fething human female head that I've got in my bits box and it isn't wearing a wild crazy distinctive hairstyle like my escher stuff. It's got a grill from a medieval knight's helmet on it, but, hey I got no other options if I don't want to make some random model a lady, wheras my bits box has 1230971428370918723098371098560918561092873 dude heads in it.

 Gert wrote:
Well, that's not necessarily true as it's noted in the HH series that the Primarchs were basically all petty little a-holes each vying for daddies love they were never going to get while also having huge testosterone fights over literally nothing. The Primarch's defining characteristics would be roughly the same (Lorgar's fanaticism, Angron being angry, Khan being wild) but the personal relationships between them would be vastly different.

Why? They’re demigods made of warp effery and magitek. Why would some of them being female change... well, much of anything?

They can still be petty d-bags, they can still have all their human foibles.

 Gert wrote:
Well, that's not necessarily true as it's noted in the HH series that the Primarchs were basically all petty little a-holes each vying for daddies love they were never going to get while also having huge testosterone fights over literally nothing. The Primarch's defining characteristics would be roughly the same (Lorgar's fanaticism, Angron being angry, Khan being wild) but the personal relationships between them would be vastly different.

Because women never do any of those things...? Sisters never fight over the attention of a parent?

I could totally see Curze as a crazy azula like character (well her in the later off her rocker episodes) and the Alpha twins as extremely androgynous like their legion so they could all pass as each other.

I never knew until this moment that I wanted Katheryn Winnick cast as Russ.

As long as they don't sexulize the armour I don't see how this would really hurt marines.

Only gender identity Orkz got is choppa or shoota

Des702 wrote:
As long as they don't sexulize the armour I don't see how this would really hurt marines.

I don’t know why someone couldn’t just buy a female head and slap it on a Space Marines body right now? The lore?

My Necrons are all female except the named ones.

Des702 wrote:

Because women never do any of those things...? Sisters never fight over the attention of a parent?

I could totally see Curze as a crazy azula like character (well her in the later off her rocker episodes) and the Alpha twins as extremely androgynous like their legion so they could all pass as each other.

It's not that brothers and sisters don't have sibling conflicts but rather the problems that arise when you take 20ish super powerful demigods who are all trying to prove their the strongest because testosterone. Now sure any female Primarchs would still likely be a-holes but you don't get d*ck measuring contests between brothers and sisters. It's said by Malcador that having a few sisters might have mellowed the Primarchs and made them less angsty all the time. Of course, we know that the Emperor was going to civil-war them all anyway and keep his favs but only he knew that in universe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Des702 wrote:
As long as they don't sexulize the armour I don't see how this would really hurt marines.

X to doubt on this one, see Stormcast for details.


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 Jjohnso11 wrote:

I don’t know why someone couldn’t just buy a female head and slap it on a Space Marines body right now? The lore?

My Necrons are all female except the named ones.

Kinda what this whole thread has been about my guy. You can do that and many people do, they just get screamed at and have horrible insults hurled at them by the Internet.

 Gert wrote:

Des702 wrote:

Because women never do any of those things...? Sisters never fight over the attention of a parent?

I could totally see Curze as a crazy azula like character (well her in the later off her rocker episodes) and the Alpha twins as extremely androgynous like their legion so they could all pass as each other.

It's not that brothers and sisters don't have sibling conflicts but rather the problems that arise when you take 20ish super powerful demigods who are all trying to prove their the strongest because testosterone. Now sure any female Primarchs would still likely be a-holes but you don't get d*ck measuring contests between brothers and sisters. It's said by Malcador that having a few sisters might have mellowed the Primarchs and made them less angsty all the time. Of course, we know that the Emperor was going to civil-war them all anyway and keep his favs but only he knew that in universe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Des702 wrote:
As long as they don't sexulize the armour I don't see how this would really hurt marines.

X to doubt on this one, see Stormcast for details.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

I don’t know why someone couldn’t just buy a female head and slap it on a Space Marines body right now? The lore?

My Necrons are all female except the named ones.

Kinda what this whole thread has been about my guy. You can do that and many people do, they just get screamed at and have horrible insults hurled at them by the Internet.

While yes women don't literally measure certain organs to prove who is better I definitely have seen some of the insane viciousness woman can inflict upon one another for achievements and glory. A very good example is Tanya Harding.

Edit: very few of the primarchs turned due to wanting to prove physically they were the strongest. Mostly it was glory. Do women lack the drive for glory completely or something?

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

Des702 wrote:
As long as they don't sexulize the armour I don't see how this would really hurt marines.

I don’t know why someone couldn’t just buy a female head and slap it on a Space Marines body right now? The lore?

My Necrons are all female except the named ones.

Generally speaking that *is* what people are doing, but should they (very) dare talk about it online, that's when the loreboys descend with the "well, actually..."s and spam that heresy .gif.

And that is the very mildest tip-of-the-iceberg of the pushback the gatekeepers employ. "My marines would rape your marines, then I would rape you" is a PM I have *seen* sent to a friend doing just that (albeit with worse spelling and grammar.)

At least things are trending in the right direction and the reactionary death throes are what we're probably seeing.

"We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray through miniatures, art and storytelling so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to.

And if you feel the same way, wherever and whoever you are, we're glad you are part of the Warhammer community. If not, you will not be missed."

Des702 wrote:

While yes women don't literally measure certain organs to prove who is better I definitely have seen some of the insane viciousness woman can inflict upon one another for achievements and glory. A very good example is Tanya Harding.

Edit: very few of the primarchs turned due to wanting to prove physically they were the strongest. Mostly it was glory. Do women lack the drive for glory completely or something?

Lorgar, Magnus, Perturabo, Angron, and Mortarion all turned because of hatred for their brothers and father. Curze also hated his brothers but at the same time was nuts, Alpharius-Omegon hated quite a few of the Primarchs, and Fulgrim was a preening self-obsessive who got corrupted by Slaanesh and still had a lot of anger towards a lot of his siblings. Horus was the only Primarch who didn't actively hate any of his brothers.

Look all I'm saying is that if Uncle Malcador said to Russ's face that the Emperor made a mistake with the buff-guy testosterone fest, then it might be a little bit worth considering.

Of course I'm not a huge fan of that kind of change, more so I'm in favour of adding new lore or adding to time periods that have little to no info (i.e. War of the Beast, Horus Heresy)

 Gert wrote:

Des702 wrote:

While yes women don't literally measure certain organs to prove who is better I definitely have seen some of the insane viciousness woman can inflict upon one another for achievements and glory. A very good example is Tanya Harding.

Edit: very few of the primarchs turned due to wanting to prove physically they were the strongest. Mostly it was glory. Do women lack the drive for glory completely or something?

Lorgar, Magnus, Perturabo, Angron, and Mortarion all turned because of hatred for their brothers and father. Curze also hated his brothers but at the same time was nuts, Alpharius-Omegon hated quite a few of the Primarchs, and Fulgrim was a preening self-obsessive who got corrupted by Slaanesh and still had a lot of anger towards a lot of his siblings. Horus was the only Primarch who didn't actively hate any of his brothers.

Look all I'm saying is that if Uncle Malcador said to Russ's face that the Emperor made a mistake with the buff-guy testosterone fest, then it might be a little bit worth considering.

Of course I'm not a huge fan of that kind of change, more so I'm in favour of adding new lore or adding to time periods that have little to no info (i.e. War of the Beast, Horus Heresy)

I get that was what Macador thought but are you saying sisters don't have the capacity for such sibling hate?

Regardless I thing if GW decides to add women it will be with Cawl and not likely retroactively.

Seeing as how Genetic mind alteration is a thing in 40k, Custodes are incapable of disobeying, Valarian is a skip, why were they "Created" at all with the capacity to not follow orders, or be more "Together as one" team focused?

Des702 wrote:
While yes women don't literally measure certain organs to prove who is better I definitely have seen some of the insane viciousness woman can inflict upon one another for achievements and glory. A very good example is Tanya Harding.

Edit: very few of the primarchs turned due to wanting to prove physically they were the strongest. Mostly it was glory. Do women lack the drive for glory completely or something?

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tonya-harding-part-1/id1380008439?i=1000465289889

I'll diverge with Gert (Bristolian, right?) on this one and say none of their story beats revolve around their masculinity (save maybe the Lion's repressed homosexuality in a hyper masculine environment). But I'd bet that if you genderswitched him you'd get the Holdo crowd out in force, and likewise Magnus would have done everything wrong. But the opprobrium of arseholes is a badge of honour and all that.


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 Gert wrote:
Horus was the only Primarch who didn't actively hate any of his brothers.

As a brief off topic aside, that love, not hate, serves Chaos best... is one of the better subtext of the HH series. Road to hell, etc. Humanity's nature is self-destructive, only way to win is not to play. Suuuuuper bleak.

 RaptorusRex wrote:

 Argive wrote:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RaptorusRex wrote:

Catulle wrote:
Further, this does not exist in a vacuum nor is it empty Internet activism, it's real. It's personal, and arguments like Argive's wretched seperate-but-equal philosophy* so closely mirror wider oppressive structures that it's laughable to imagine they aren't being seen for precisely what they are.

My partner, whom I love dearly, is AFAB non-binary and plays Sisters of Battle (order of the Thorn, loads of bone armour and blood spatter) and... femme Soul Drinkers (mostly because purple and jetpacks) they're... very into their melee game. And the gak they have had to wade through because of gatekeeping insecure little manchildren in this hobby turns my stomach. On top of the daily dose of anti trans bs that the world bombards them with. It simply has no place in this funtimes wardollies hobby, and anything that perpetuates that state of affairs isn't just problematic; it's evil.

*parallel structures, indeed, reeks of anti civil rights stances and de facto apartheidism. There Goes The Neighbourhood, as the prophet Ice-T spaketh.

I'd like to chime in here. I'm nonbinary, as well, and my girlfriend is a trans woman. These are facts about me I had yet to share on DakkaDakka. I don't feel "unwelcome" per say in my hobby communities, but part of that is me presenting for the moment as a male. I have no doubt that out-and-out women would have a harder time.

A lot of what I see here, in this thread, is at its heart a resistance to change. I don't know the root cause, but it seems to me like that a lot of people treat their vision of 40k as a sort of holy writ. And for some people, stuff that seems inconsequential - like the non-functioning genitals on an Astartes - is of tantamount importance. It seems very weird to me that people would unironically argue that the Astartes's identity is tied to their maleness in any significant way.

Would you expect to be treated any better, worse or no different if you reveal yourself to the community?

All im saying is we seemed to have lost the creed of treating everyone equaly and judging people by the content of their character.

Instead people are focusing on outward appearance as a factor of how to treat people and whats good for them. The whole representation concept only focuses on outward characterstics and sees everything through that lense. I dont think thats a good thing. Treat eachother as humans not as labels of xyz. I think if we do more of that we would have more balanced communities.

Well, yeah. But we can induce somebody's position from what they say and judge them on those positions accordingly, can we not? That's within bounds, wouldn't you say?

I think that, yes, I would be treated worse if I were out fully. I was in a Discord server for TTS Games of 40k a while back. It was absolutely infested with people posting Stonetoss comics and the like. I think that denying there's a problem with this sort of the stuff in the community doesn't do anything to help.

My friend you are confusing internet space with reality...

It sucks what hapepend but why care about words on the itnernet? Anonymity is giving people ability to say nasty stuff that they would never say in real life and children trolls... Fug them..
It sucks it happened, but I dont think you can tar the entire 40k comunity with that brush because of some TTs discord thing.

In real life reality - Evolution will take care of all the horrible noninclusive communities if it's deemed unacceptable and people reject them.
If you have a community thats "eww non-boys are ewww!!" they simply won't last very long, and will not attract new members because they are clearly horrible people and any normal person can see that...

Des702 wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Des702 wrote:

While yes women don't literally measure certain organs to prove who is better I definitely have seen some of the insane viciousness woman can inflict upon one another for achievements and glory. A very good example is Tanya Harding.

Edit: very few of the primarchs turned due to wanting to prove physically they were the strongest. Mostly it was glory. Do women lack the drive for glory completely or something?

Lorgar, Magnus, Perturabo, Angron, and Mortarion all turned because of hatred for their brothers and father. Curze also hated his brothers but at the same time was nuts, Alpharius-Omegon hated quite a few of the Primarchs, and Fulgrim was a preening self-obsessive who got corrupted by Slaanesh and still had a lot of anger towards a lot of his siblings. Horus was the only Primarch who didn't actively hate any of his brothers.

Look all I'm saying is that if Uncle Malcador said to Russ's face that the Emperor made a mistake with the buff-guy testosterone fest, then it might be a little bit worth considering.

Of course I'm not a huge fan of that kind of change, more so I'm in favour of adding new lore or adding to time periods that have little to no info (i.e. War of the Beast, Horus Heresy)

I get that was what Macador thought but are you saying sisters don't have the capacity for such sibling hate?

Regardless I thing if GW decides to add women it will be with Cawl and not likely retroactively.

I agree, frankly no gender has a monopoly on hate, testosterone only makes it more likely to lead to violence.

IMO there’s a bare handful of primarchs (Russ, Lion, Angron IMO) that work notably better as men and then not by much.

Even the Dorn/Perturabo rivalry would work just as well with a dynamic like Zuko/Azula from ATLA

Catulle wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

Des702 wrote:
As long as they don't sexulize the armour I don't see how this would really hurt marines.

I don’t know why someone couldn’t just buy a female head and slap it on a Space Marines body right now? The lore?

My Necrons are all female except the named ones.

Generally speaking that *is* what people are doing, but should they (very) dare talk about it online, that's when the loreboys descend with the "well, actually..."s and spam that heresy .gif.

And that is the very mildest tip-of-the-iceberg of the pushback the gatekeepers employ. "My marines would rape your marines, then I would rape you" is a PM I have *seen* sent to a friend doing just that (albeit with worse spelling and grammar.)

At least things are trending in the right direction and the reactionary death throes are what we're probably seeing.

"We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray through miniatures, art and storytelling so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to.

And if you feel the same way, wherever and whoever you are, we're glad you are part of the Warhammer community. If not, you will not be missed."

Have you ever talked to a human being face to face in a 40k game?

Sounds like your entire exposure to 40k is from online space..

 Argive wrote:

Catulle wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

Des702 wrote:
As long as they don't sexulize the armour I don't see how this would really hurt marines.

I don’t know why someone couldn’t just buy a female head and slap it on a Space Marines body right now? The lore?

My Necrons are all female except the named ones.

Generally speaking that *is* what people are doing, but should they (very) dare talk about it online, that's when the loreboys descend with the "well, actually..."s and spam that heresy .gif.

And that is the very mildest tip-of-the-iceberg of the pushback the gatekeepers employ. "My marines would rape your marines, then I would rape you" is a PM I have *seen* sent to a friend doing just that (albeit with worse spelling and grammar.)

At least things are trending in the right direction and the reactionary death throes are what we're probably seeing.

"We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray through miniatures, art and storytelling so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to.

And if you feel the same way, wherever and whoever you are, we're glad you are part of the Warhammer community. If not, you will not be missed."

Have you ever talked to a human being face to face in a 40k game?

Sounds like your entire exposure to 40k is from online space..

Chap.

I've been playing this game since Rogue Trader, crossbow shurikens and all.

The massively online bit is, well, *accentuated* right now.

Did you know we've had a pandemic, btw?

Argive wrote:]My friend you are confusing internet space with reality...

The people who made those comments on the internet are also real people, who hold those views.
Whether said in person or from behind the cowardice of a computer screen, they are still expressing (and impressing) their toxicity on others.

It sucks what hapepend but why care about words on the itnernet?

Because those words are still coming from their minds and fingertips. When they step out from their dens and caves into the hobby store, those opinions and beliefs don't vanish too.

Anonymity is giving people ability to say nasty stuff that they would never say in real life and children trolls... Fug them..

Exactly the problem - they wouldn't say it in real life, but they're thinking it. And all it takes is for them to feel emboldened (perhaps by some thirty year old lore) and then they can speak their drivel in person as well.

It sucks it happened, but I dont think you can tar the entire 40k comunity with that brush because of some TTs discord thing.

And it's lucky that you've never experienced it, but you can't ignore someone's testimony of victimhood, and the collective testimonies of everyone who has been made to feel uncomfortable in the hobby.

All you're doing is devaluing peoples' problems and legitimate issues because you aren't able to have empathy with that.

In real life reality - Evolution will take care of all the horrible noninclusive communities if it's deemed unacceptable and people reject them.

Have you considered that evolution is still in process, and may yet include adding women Space Marines?

If you have a community thats "eww non-boys are ewww!!" they simply won't last very long, and will not attract new members because they are clearly horrible people and any normal person can see that...

I don't know - 40k was a very male-dominated hobby for a LONG time, and is only really now beginning to open its arms to a wider audience who are looking for representation.

Perhaps it is very much time for the 40k community to change.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Perhaps it is very much time for the 40k community to change.

GW certainly thinks so, and who are we to argue with the true loremasters, hmm?

Even from a purely selfish level we should be happy for inclusion. More players means a more support and more likely the hobby will continue. And like what was said before, it's not a zero sum game. Everyone can win.

Des702 wrote:
Even from a purely selfish level we should be happy for inclusion. More players means a more support and more likely the hobby will continue. And like what was said before, it's not a zero sum game. Everyone can win.

I didn't look thoroughly through the thread, but is there any real evidence to suggest that including female representation will increase the number of female collectors? Is this just a few users projecting that this will happen or are games with equal female representation increasing their player base with more female collectors and gamers?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Well, that's not necessarily true as it's noted in the HH series that the Primarchs were basically all petty little a-holes each vying for daddies love they were never going to get while also having huge testosterone fights over literally nothing. The Primarch's defining characteristics would be roughly the same (Lorgar's fanaticism, Angron being angry, Khan being wild) but the personal relationships between them would be vastly different.

Why? They’re demigods made of warp effery and magitek. Why would some of them being female change... well, much of anything?

They can still be petty d-bags, they can still have all their human foibles.

Oh wow, I come back after a decade and I recognize a name from Giantitp forums. Hi JNA!


------------------


GW could do this with some new heads on a sprue, it's not like you can tell the differences in people's bodies when they're inside exosuit level power armor. It's not like all marines out of suit are the exact same height, right?

I personally think it'd be a good thing, yes the sisters exist but the marines are the poster child of the entire universe, it's their helmet on all the advertising, they're the ones in every single starter kit, it's offputting to tell half of the world's population that they're not allowed to identify with the superheroes of the game.


And if Cawl can find a note with the secret sauce to add an extra 3 organs to the space marine surgery, I don't see why he couldn't find a post it note stuck to Guilliman's shoe that mentions how to better stabilize the gene seed.

Des702 wrote:
Even from a purely selfish level we should be happy for inclusion. More players means a more support and more likely the hobby will continue. And like what was said before, it's not a zero sum game. Everyone can win.

On that note I'd honestly much prefer it if FEWER people played Space Marines, and instead played other factions (which could also use more diversity.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

macluvin wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Altima wrote:

 Argive wrote:


I already explained. If you'd actually read what I wrote instead of getting triggered and writing angry drivel perhaps you'd understand where I'm coming from.
I get your position. I do. But I think its a very bad position for the hobby and the wider ideology that's causing it is at its very core abhorrent.

Its categorising and locking women into a group without giving them agency, and determining they are so insecure they cannot be interested in plastic toy soldiers unless they look like them and therefore we have to take away stuff that looks like boys to make them feel better..

That's a terrible opinion and strategy in my opinion..

You respect women so much that you find the idea that they want better representation to be so distasteful that you'd rather they leave the hobby because if they ever got their way, it'd ruin the hobby for you, and you'd leave?

No one is talking about taking stuff away. They're talking about adding on to an existing range. Are you that insecure?

Changing an arguably key part of a faction identity is taking something away, even if the change could also be described as an addition. On the surface that can sound illogical, but the absence of a thing can be just as important to identity as having a thing.

How important is it that SM are all male (and retain that characteristic)? I don't know. It clearly has an effect though.

You are right; it clearly has an effect. It has the effect of empowering misogynists across the internet with the false authority to respond to female space marines with vitriol, hatred and death threats. And you are right that adding something could be taking it away, and vice versa. With marines being the most marketed faction, most supported faction, faction with the most representation in the lore and black library, and generally easier and more forgiving faction to new players, should provide representation to the broadest audience imaginable.

So to be clear, can we agree that it would be far less of an issue if Space Marines weren't the flagship faction and prime marketing iconography of 40k? Because I'd be pretty ok with that. As a marine player for 25ish years I'm pretty sick of all the attention spent on marines.

Yeah, it would be zero issue at all. Orks, Custodes, or Necrons being all male is not at all as much of a thing because 50% of the model releases 90% of the novels and all the advertising ever does not feature only those factions.

(yes I know TECHNICALLY necrons are not all male and they just HAPPEN to be all male except for one random fw character from the novels of the expanded universe or whatever who would probably have metal bewbies appended to her ribcage if GW were ever to make a model for her XD)

Sorry scotsman I can't tell how sarcastic this reply is.

I'm definitely in the "more representation" camp, but have mixed feelings on the Space Marine front, aside from having the opinion that SM are way overrepresented.

It's also weird to me that Custodes wound up being all male.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

Des702 wrote:
Even from a purely selfish level we should be happy for inclusion. More players means a more support and more likely the hobby will continue. And like what was said before, it's not a zero sum game. Everyone can win.

I didn't look thoroughly through the thread, but is there any real evidence to suggest that including female representation will increase the number of female collectors? Is this just a few users projecting that this will happen or are games with equal female representation increasing their player base with more female collectors and gamers?

By "real evidence" it's important to establish whether talking to actual women counts, because... yes, yes it does. And it matters more the harder and faster the boys-only club is pushed as the face of the game. This reflects on all of us.

I mean I am sure you're going to find some women on both sides of the argument so I don't know how effective anecdotal talk to a woman thing cuz sometimes that gets shot back with "well I know one woman who plays and she doesn't care". And in fact I do happen to know one woman who plays and thinks it's stupid to have female space marines. (I don't agree)

I think the more logical argument is going to be what is the true loss of changing this bit of fluff Versus what is the potential benefit. I think the loss is very small compared to the benefit that it's going to have in the overarching future of the hobby. I mean think about it considering we're in this hobby I would say most of us have dealt with some type of exclusion in our life. And in fact it's one of the weird things I find about nerd culture in general, how we've all been excluded most of our lives because of our hobbies and our interests and yet we're so ready to do the same to others and if we have such a small thing that we can do that really doesn't impact our Hobby in any way meaningful but makes other people feel included why are we not banding together to do that.

Edit: or you would need a much more official poll if we're going to determine based off of people's opinions and feelings.

As much as this is always been a boys game it's very rapidly changing from that and becoming more mainstream. So having your flagship faction be more inclusive just makes more sense to me. There's nothing wrong with a couple boys only faction in a couple girls only faction and a couple of no gendered factions. But not as your flagship product. Honestly if Warhammer had developed and Imperial guard was the forerunner there would be no debate whether or not space Marines need to have diversity in it because you have the diverse faction being the flagship faction.

Honestly right now it looks like Games workshop wants to go the route of having two flagship factions one being sisters and one being Marines and that possibly could work but they would have to really push sisters for the next couple years to get it at the same level of support as Marines. I mean they have a new comic coming out with sisters they have a bunch of new models they have a similar Roboute Gilliman model for them. I definitely feel like as of late they are the second most favored faction out there with all the new models. I don't think we'll have the same impact as having female space Marines but maybe it will...

Des702 wrote:

Honestly right now it looks like Games workshop wants to go the route of having two flagship factions one being sisters and one being Marines and that possibly could work but they would have to really push sisters for the next couple years to get it at the same level of support as Marines. I mean they have a new comic coming out with sisters they have a bunch of new models they have a similar Roboute Gilliman model for them. I definitely feel like as of late they are the second most favored faction out there with all the new models. I don't think we'll have the same impact as having female space Marines but maybe it will...

It seems to me GW have really swung in that direction that's exactly what they are doing. I can see them embracing SOB as the new "prime" faction and milking it.
I hope they do shift more in that direction. I hope fewer marines and more "other stuff" resulting in hopefully; a more even split in releases. It could be a win-win for everyone.

When it comes to female marines I really come from an angle of “why not”, people need to come up with some real justified reason for maintaining the status quo. Because the the question new players will have, that’s the question women looking in will have. Why aren’t women represented in the flagship faction.

Over the years I have heard no argument to justify not changing. The lore, that’s rubbish, that changes all the time, marines have changed more times than I can remember. Science, what a joke, doesn’t stand up to real world scrutiny let alone bonkers 40K science; it don’t matter the starting hormones of someone when you are going to pump them full of stuff anyway.

If female space marines causes you offence then ask your self why is that? Why is it so important to you that only men can be in this made up fantasy army? Most will find that it doesn’t really, some will find that they are bigots.

A woman or young girl wanting to look at 40K they won’t care that ORKS are asexual fungus or that the metal undead space robots might be women, or that there is a whole faction sexualised space nuns with metal boobs and even some in high heals....they will see marines and the sausage fest it is and then see all the nerd rage at anyone who suggests it changes so as to make more people welcome.

As for evidence, representation being a barrier to inclusivity is a well established fact seen many many times. No reason to think wargaming is any different. It will most likely always attract more men and boys then women but that doesn’t mean it should exclude them.