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I have always assumed there are female marines - its just that telling male from female on 8 foot muscle bound augemented post humans isnt so easy.
We know the process is optimised for males, but that doesnt mean it wont work on females - just if there is say, a 50 failure rate in males, it will higher in females. Chapters that are more independent or not so interested in the rules are likely to have tried and there will have been successes. Its just the muscle bound hulks are not easily IDed as M/F and take marine names. I imagine its not like they have much of a sexuality as a marine, and I imagine their reaction to questions of gender is that they are Marines, as a not quite human anymore.

Unfortunately, GW is very slow to alter the lore of their flag ship brand, unless it's completely altering it (Primaris), or completely ruining it (Ultramarines/GK/G0T0), or completely selling out on it (DoW3/backflipping terminators).

Nope, protecting the sanctity of the Space Marine brand is VERY important to GW.

Andykp wrote:
If female space marines causes you offence then ask your self why is that? Why is it so important to you that only men can be in this made up fantasy army? Most will find that it doesn’t really, some will find that they are bigots.

Part of the issue here is that most nonchalantly claim “I don’t care what you do with your plastic toy soldiers so there is no problem, and not one that requires a solution like putting the muscle of the holders of the IP behind allowing such things.”
They disregard their fellows who either implicitly or explicitly do care. They make this claim while denying the problem exists because it does not affect them, and they personally have not experienced or participated in it, and therefore can not understand how someone else could be affected. They insulate those who are responsible for creating a hostile climate for certain gender or racial demographics from any sort of consequences through denial of their personal experiences and clinging to the space marines as males, and I think it’s a good sign when people drag their feet through the muck when you try to implement such change because all meaningful change makes some people uncomfortable. And god bless the likes of Argive for screaming and whining in the face of progressive change because were it not for the likes of him I wouldn’t be certain that this was the right move.

Anything and anyone that messes with my partner's enjoyment of their bouncy murder gals gets my entire contempt. Hands down.

I see I was correct when I said this was cringe and just activism, always ends in political discussions and this topic should be banned at this point as a political one because the activists always make it so.

As I said before if you want to buy the models and do what you want with them, go for it, but that does not mean you get to force your views on others like some sort of buy in ticket system, if you cannot handle that go complain on Twitter or 4chan ... or you know, do some useful activism like helping the homeless.

Thing is there chief rep in media (i.e. things like female sm/non-white dudes as main characters in stories or as models) ain't politics nor is it cringe.
If I were to come on Dakka and say something like "all UK users should vote for the Greens at the next General Election" or discuss the political ramifications of Brexit in 40k General/Background then that would be politics.
You could take the stance that all things in life have a connection to politics as the policies of ruling parties effect all levels of life, but that doesn't mean you get to shut down discussion of the hobby we share because someone said it wasn't perfect and was difficult to be a part of for certain people.

Just as a little side note, is it just the people advocating for female SM you think shouldn't be allowed to discuss the topic or do you also think the people who are anti-female SM shouldn't be allowed to discuss it?

Formosa wrote:I see I was correct when I said this was cringe and just activism, always ends in political discussions and this topic should be banned at this point as a political one because the activists always make it so.

Being a woman isn't political. Wanting to see yourself represented isn't political, and it's frankly more of a slight on you that you'd believe so.

As I said before if you want to buy the models and do what you want with them, go for it

But that's the problem - have you seen the comments people make when women Space Marines are made? Hell, by even bringing up the subject, you seem to think it's politically motivated.

Now, I'm very much of the opinion that *everything* is political, even neutrality, but going by your own standards that you can apparently have apolitical things, wanting representation isn't even political.

but that does not mean you get to force your views on others like some sort of by in ticket system

Wanting women Astartes isn't forcing you to do anything. If you don't like women Astartes, don't take them. No-one's forcing you.

But if you think for a second that the lore changing to let other people take it, without having to put up with the endless whinging and screaming about how it's non-canon, is forcing you to do anything at all, you might want to re-evaluate your stance.

or you know, do some useful activism like helping the homeless.

Bold to assume that you can't do both together - I was under the impression that people were able to care about multiple things. Or did I overestimate your own abilities for such acts?

 Gert wrote:
Thing is there chief rep in media (i.e. things like female sm/non-white dudes as main characters in stories or as models) ain't politics nor is it cringe.
If I were to come on Dakka and say something like "all UK users should vote for the Greens at the next General Election" or discuss the political ramifications of Brexit in 40k General/Background then that would be politics.
You could take the stance that all things in life have a connection to politics as the policies of ruling parties effect all levels of life, but that doesn't mean you get to shut down discussion of the hobby we share because someone said it wasn't perfect and was difficult to be a part of for certain people.

Just as a little side note, is it just the people advocating for female SM you think shouldn't be allowed to discuss the topic or do you also think the people who are anti-female SM shouldn't be allowed to discuss it?

Nonsense, X,Y or Z not being political is the excuse activists use all the time knowing damn well it is political and assuming the rest of us are too politically stupid to be able to tell, they just want to be able to talk about THEIR political activism while shutting others out of theirs and I do not care what the excuse is I want it all gone, especially as the Mods were quite clear on this matter and I am surprised this thread has got this far with this much political talk in it, its cringe and has no place here so go do activism on Twitter or 4chan if you all cant keep it in your pants.

The existence of women is not a political topic. Women exist. If that's a problem for you, that's a shame, but not a reason to take it on yourself to declare the thread over. Let the moderation team decide what is and isn't appropriate for the forum.

For the record, discussion of female marines has generally been banned in the past not because it was political, but because it inevitably went off the rails very quickly. That hasn't happened here, with the thread being remarkably well behaved, for the most part. I take that as a positive sign that this particular topic is becoming less contentious amongst the community.

Truly better beheaved? Or are you just blind because you obviously sided with one side to the remark casually thrown around in this very thread?

Formosa wrote:Nonsense, X,Y or Z not being political is the excuse activists use all the time knowing damn well it is political

Okay - what part of it is political? What part of "women exist, and would like to exist in the flagship faction" is political, because I'm not seeing why.

 insaniak wrote:
The existence of women is not a political topic. Women exist. If that's a problem for you, that's a shame, but not a reason to take it on yourself to declare the thread over. Let the moderation team decide what is and isn't appropriate for the forum.

For the record, discussion of female marines has generally been banned in the past not because it was political, but because it inevitably went off the rails very quickly. That hasn't happened here, with the thread being remarkably well behaved, for the most part. I take that as a positive sign that this particular topic is becoming less contentious amongst the community.

I disagree with you and your framing of my argument, woman existing is irrelevant as of course they do and that has nothing to do with my point, my point is this ALWAYS gets political and it has quite clearly become so with the last few pages literally discussing politics, you disagree of course and you are the Mod here not me so that stands however note I did not report the thread so there is no "declaring the thread is over" no, I expressed my opinion and kept within the rules that this is a political discussion and should have been stopped by now based on those same rules, you Mod as you see fit of course.

I keep coming back here precisely because politics is banned

Not Online!!! wrote:
Truly better beheaved? Or are you just blind because you obviously sided with one side to the remark casually thrown around in this very thread?

I did say '... for the most part'. It's required some moderation, and I wouldnt be showing this thread to my daughters as an example of how to behave online, but compared to previous discussions on this topic it's been considerably better behaved, yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
however note I did not report the thread so there is no "declaring the thread is over

No, see, that's exactly the problem. You didn't contribute to the discussion, you just posted in the thread to complain that you don't think the discussion belongs here. The appropriate thing to do would have been to not post in the thread, report it, and leave it to the mods to decide whether or not it belongs here.


All of which is getting somewhat off topic. Let's either get it back on track or move on, folks.

No, see, that's exactly the problem. You didn't contribute to the discussion, you just posted in the thread to complain that you don't think the discussion belongs here. The appropriate thing to do would have been to not post in the thread, report it, and leave it to the mods to decide whether or not it belongs here.

Again I politely disagree with that framing, I contributed to the thread, was polite and respectful and did not let myself get baited into a debate, we literally have people talking about left and right wing, tories etc. and other things further in the thread.

For what its worth, again if people want to but the models and do what they want with them, who cares, this does not give these people carte blanche to demand we then change it to suit their flavour of the month activism, this is escapism for many many people and the increasing attempt at politicisation using woman as the current vector will break the community up, I object to this and this is both on topic and in context with the last 8 or so pages.

other than that I guess we just agree to disagree and I will leave it here as you ask.

Formosa wrote:this does not give these people carte blanche to demand we then change it to suit their flavour of the month activism

Women having representation isn't "flavour of the month activism" though, is it?

this is escapism for many many people

Does your escapism hinge on women not being represented as Space Marines? If women could become Space Marines, what escapist fantasy are you losing? What about women's escapism?

and the increasing attempt at politicisation using woman as the current vector will break the community up

I ask again, what is political about women's representation? You, and many others, make these veiled references to "politics" and "agendas" and "conspiracies" - all I see is women asking to be represented evenly, and the most realistic way to achieve that even representation is by reconsidering lore that only exists to justify ending poor sales of some god-awful sculpts.

I'm not going to bother replying to anyone specific because there are too many posts and too many threads in this tangled mess to address so I'm just going to lay out my thoughts.

The core issue is that I have yet to see a single convincing argument given as to why female space marines should be added. NOT ONE
But lets address some of the ones that have appeared:

"Why not?"

"Well I want it/I've heard someone else say they want it, so you need to respect that person's desires/opinion."

"Space Marines being all male encourages sexism in the community and leads to death threats/harassment."

"Space Marines being all male makes women feel unwelcome or disinterested in joining the hobby."

I could keep going on given the sheer amount of back and forth argument this topic generates, but I'm going to end on this one point. Someone a few pages back suggested that if the goal was for representation, then rather than changing Space Marines, surely bringing SoB up to the same level of prominence would achieve that. To which multiple people said "no, it has to be female Space Marines" which given all of the other arguments leads me to one conclusion:

That these arguments have absolutely nothing to do with improving female representation and everything to do with opposition to the very concept of a male only faction because it offends certain people apparently. The idea that a female player wouldn't be able to find a faction she likes among ~15 non-marine factions, almost all of which have some degree of female representation (as long as we want to keep beating this horse), simply because marines exist seems pretty ridiculous.

It's like arguing that women couldn't possibly enjoy The Lord of the Rings because all of the members of the Fellowship were male...

And I, for my part, push back on this because I (and anecdotally a lot of people I know) got into 40k and have stuck with it because of the aesthetics and the lore. No matter what words I put it into I doubt "the opposition" will find it satisfactory but to me, adding female space marines changes something intrinsic to their identity that feels like vandalism of the lore driven purely by real world politics that shouldn't have any bearing on fiction. I think the only time 40k has had such a drastic change of a faction's identity (not even because of politics) was Necrons and I still hate that and think it was a mistake.

First off, that is never any acceptable argument in any actual discussion of substance. If you and your friends are discussing the merits of chugging a milkshake while riding a unicycle, fine. If you actually are trying to actually advocate for something though it actually makes your position look worse.

The thing about a fictional toy universe with literally nothing holding it back from making this one change, when indeed it has done much larger, more substantial to "the aesthetics" and lore changes, is it is about on the same tier as having a milkshake while riding a unicycle.

Second, the answer to "why not?" is that in this case female Space Marines are specifically excluded from the fiction by the specific mention in current canon that geneseed, a essential part of space marine creation, is tied to the male zygote.

Somebody should tell Arjac Rockfist, then, because when a female aspirant asked "why not?" he didn't say
"well, you see, the male zygote is a key part of the process"
he said
"oh shoot, I don't know why not. Just tradition, I guess!"

And THAT is current canon.

I don't think anyone here need to be convinced of anything.

I mean, it's not like opinions have any relevance to the topic. They're opinions, and for as many as you that don't like it, rest assured many more likes it instead.
So unless you want to sponsor some market research or collect statistical data, those are moot point.

So, to hit the nail on the head: lore-wise there's literally zero arguments to think Marines can't be female. As I said, I suspect that many Blood Angels are genetically female but the process alter them to be essentially post human (neither male or female: you think they're male because you live 38 millennia in the past from the 40k perspective).
Please prove me wrong and point me to precise description of their genitalia: it would be fun if some exist (as I already said, there are XX males and XY female in the real world - read some sport research about that).

We're talking about a make-believe world: is its internally consistent?
If yes, nothing is an issue (and if it is for you, then probably you're kind of a snowflake).

I think GW will push the Sister of Battle, rather than adding female Primaris.
But there are zero reason lore-wise (or identity wise or any other of the funny and really bizarre justification I read here) to criticize the introduction of a new line of models for SM.

Jack Flask wrote:I'm not going to bother replying to anyone specific because there are too many posts and too many threads in this tangled mess to address so I'm just going to lay out my thoughts.

The core issue is that I have yet to see a single convincing argument given as to why female space marines should be added. NOT ONE

Sorry, did you miss every time that we said that women wanted equal representation? Because Sisters ain't equal representation - not even close.

I'll lay it out quite simply: Space Marines are *super* iconic. They're plastered on all 40k media, are given the most attention at every turn, and on top of all of that, just *are* pretty damn cool. They're the ultimate blank slate canvas, perfect for translating just about any historical or thematic idea onto a nice flat surface, with easy to paint models at an accessible level. They're recognisable, they're iconic, and they're cool. Perfect flagship fodder.

Sisters don't have that. Sure, they're cool, and they're recognisable, but has that been capitalised upon? No. Yes, they've had a shot in the arm, but they're still nowhere near the clout that Space Marines have, and have had to decades. Additionally, Sisters suffer from having an almost too-iconic design - their fleur-de-lys imagery and Ecclesiastical aesthetic are so wholly ingrained into their design that to remove it would genuinely be to remove a massive chunk of what the Sisters are. A Sister of Battle without those hallmark elements would look noticeably different, to the point where it may well be irreconcilable. But a Space Marine can look like anything from a fur-clad Space Wolf to a robed Dark Angel, to a bejewelled Blood Angel, or a techno-barbarian Iron Hand, or a tacticool Raptor, or a blood-spattered World Eater, or a Greco-Roman Ultramarine, or even a barebones minimalist Ultramarine. The core Space Marine design is so versatile, so accommodating to diversity that very few factions can come close to matching it. Ergo, Space Marines have a unique selling point over Sisters, irrespective of however popular Sisters might ever be - and that creativity that Space Marines offer may be appealing to people who want their soldiers in a female flavour.
And again, let's look at it this way - the most customisable faction - should they not also be the one to have the most options? So why are they gender locked? From a design perspective, it's frankly baffling.

But, back to the point - representation. Sisters do not, and really *cannot*, offer what Space Marines do. And that's alright, because we shouldn't be expecting Sisters to have to be the faction women go to for representation any more so than men should go to Space Marines for it. Space Marines are just that - Space Marines, the ultimate flagship of Your Hobby - but why is "Your Hobby" exclusive to men, and rejecting of women? Either Space Marines need to lose their status (which, due to cultural inertia and simple weight of people owning Space Marines, ain't going to happen any time soon), or a piece of thirty year old lore, whose existence only serves to justify a marketing decision decades ago, gets revised.

Unless you're of the opinion that women don't need/deserve representation, something's got to happen.

"Why not?"

First off, that is never any acceptable argument in any actual discussion of substance.

I will say that "why not" is nearly always accompanied with "why are you holding a piece of lore more dear to you than the personal accounts of real life people who feel that it excuses exclusion against them".

Second, the answer to "why not?" is that in this case female Space Marines are specifically excluded from the fiction by the specific mention in current canon that geneseed, a essential part of space marine creation, is tied to the male zygote. If you think that that is arbitrary congratulations, all fiction is arbitrary.

Yes. All fiction *is* arbitrary - see Cawl or the Primaris. Hell, see how that lore only exists to justify why GW didn't sell women Astartes. Thank you for working that out.

The question is "why should this fiction still be maintained, considering all the harm that it causes by people citing it"? Is lore more important to you than real people?

"Well I want it/I've heard someone else say they want it, so you need to respect that person's desires/opinion."

There are clearly people who are also not in favor of it as evidenced by this thread, my post, and the constant anecdotal reference of people who say they've encountered opposition to the idea.

And what have been their reasons why not?
"The lore is more valuable to me than your feelings as someone who feels excluded."
"I don't see how you can feel excluded/want representation, so I'm going to ignore your feelings."
"I think it's okay to exclude women from my gaming group." (And these were all real comments made in this thread, by the way)

I would also hazard to guess that everyone who has vocally opposed women Space Marines is not a woman. I'm not saying that the voices of non-women are irrelevant here, but maybe, when it comes to women talking about things they like, maybe women's voices should be the most prominent.

Why is it that your personal wants, or those of people who agree with you, carry more weight than mine or anyone else's opinion? Why can't you respect the opinions of those people who are happy with Space Marines as they have existed now for over 20 years?

Because those opinions quite literally come at the cost of making other people feeling excluded - I can't believe we're having to discuss if "hey, can I have some equal representation" and "how dare you retcon some fiction in a made up universe" are even close to equivalent complaints. On the counterpoint, why on earth would some people being allowed to have women's heads on their Astartes exclude you, and make you feel excluded from the community?

And furthermore, where do you draw the line? Should there be furry Space Marines because some people consider that part of their identity? I mean, people have even made art of it, so clearly there is demand.

You're comparing women to furries?

"Space Marines being all male encourages sexism in the community and leads to death threats/harassment."

Is a completely manufactured, hypothetical argument which by it's very nature can't be disputed.

So, you're just ignoring complaints because you don't want to deal with them? Cool, good to know.

Are there women who go to events or game stores and get hit with harassment or sexist comments? Yes. I don't think anyone disputes that. There are gakky people in basically every community.
However there is 0 evidence to say that Space Marines are the causation of that.

No-one said that. Space Marines *aren't* the causation. But the tacit endorsement and continued impression of a male-dominated hobby without any representation of women in the flagship faction do absolutely no favours in promoting a diverse playing environment.

And I'll just ask, would there be anything wrong with promoting a diverse playing environment?

unless you can demonstrate that marines being all male is specifically attracting and empowering gakky people in this hobby then you don't have an argument.

It very much *does* empower gakky people to drive away people who use their creativity to make women Astartes. It empowers them by letting them cite "the Lore", and devalue other people's work and creativity, oftentimes to seek representation or expression in a hobby where none such canonically exists, which is certainly gakky behaviour.

I mean heck, while we're throwing anecdotal evidence around I seem to remember multiple stories from both Dakka and Reddit about people encountering fethwits with Guardsmen painted as literal Nazis, correct iconography and all. And Guard are arguably the MOST diverse faction in the lore (alongside Inquisition in theory)...

You're absolutely right - there's been all many of 40k factions (mostly Imperial) portrayed literally as fascists. But I have no idea what's got to do with diversity or this topic whatsoever. The Imperial Guard being diverse (in lore, not in practice) has nothing to do with chuds painting them in fascist iconography - why did you feel the need to bring that up?

"Space Marines being all male makes women feel unwelcome or disinterested in joining the hobby."

Again, this is all extremely extrapolated anecdotal evidence or hypothetical argument.

No, it's very much real, You just don't believe it.

It's no different to me claiming "everyone saying that they value the sanctity of the lore is just anecdotal and hypothetical, no-one's really saying that". Now, I *do* question if that's all they're asking for when they call for the sanctity of the lore, and I'm more than happy to argue that the "sanctity of the lore" literally doesn't exist, but I'm not sure that works compared to women literally giving their opinions.

Unless you can prove that gender of Space Marines is the primary factor that keeps women out of the hobby then you don't have an argument.

No-one said it was the primary factor at all. Only that MANY WOMEN have been very vocal about wanting women Astartes for representative purposes. If you want to ignore them, that's your bias, not mine.

Now you can certainly speak to overall representation as contributing factor, but it's pretty hard to argue that Games Workshop isn't doing massively better about that.

We've had a multi-racial mixed gender Guardsmen upgrade sprue. An entire plastic revamp of SoB followed by an entire range expansion. Multiple female special character HQs including Greyfax, Commissar Rayne, two different Rogue Traders, Sgt. "Ripper" Jackson, and Yvraine to name a few. A noticable (and welcome) uptick in novels starring female characters. SoB are increasingly taking a prominent place in the front facing aspect of 40k, from the 9th edition trailer to being in the second wave of the MacFarlane figures and even getting a Marvel comic series.

And none of that comes close to tipping the iceberg that is Space Marines. Space Marines are still the most dominant GW creation, and nothing, not even Stormcast, have come close to matching their market image. No matter how many awesome women sculpts in limited edition, single model clampacks or comics are made, Space Marines are still the most iconic faction. And that won't change for a *very* long time.

Furthermore, I yet again mention that Space Marines offer something that Sisters simply cannot - freedom and customisation.

If you think any of the above is minor then it's hard to take your opinion seriously.

If you don't see the market dominance of Space Marines, I can't either.

I started following 40k in 2004 and have probably around 200 40k novels from then to around 2011. Major female characters were pretty rare in early black library even though the books were probably 40% Guardsmen/Inquisition focused (the remainder being probably 50% Space Marines and 10% xenos).
[Note: These breakdowns are coming purely out of my memory. Yes, this could be verified by going through the back catalog of Black Library but I don't feel like spending an hour on a wiki at the moment...]

So, you're using made up statistics, and ignoring that the (very good) advances in representation still don't come anywhere near actual equality and fair representation.

Yes, things are better. They're not good enough though, and if you can't understand why, maybe you should listen to people who *do* feel under-represented.

I could keep going on given the sheer amount of back and forth argument this topic generates, but I'm going to end on this one point. Someone a few pages back suggested that if the goal was for representation, then rather than changing Space Marines, surely bringing SoB up to the same level of prominence would achieve that. To which multiple people said "no, it has to be female Space Marines" which given all of the other arguments leads me to one conclusion:

That these arguments have absolutely nothing to do with improving female representation and everything to do with opposition to the very concept of a male only faction because it offends certain people apparently. The idea that a female player wouldn't be able to find a faction she likes among ~15 non-marine factions, almost all of which have some degree of female representation (as long as we want to keep beating this horse), simply because marines exist seems pretty ridiculous.

There's nothing wrong with the concept of a male-only faction. The problems are:
- The Male-Only Factions are given the most attention, by several orders of magnitude.
- The Male-Only Factions (minus Custodes) are the most customisable, and have the greatest range of options available to them.
- The Male-Only Factions have the flimsiest reasons around as to even *why* they're all male. Sisters are aesthetically essentially women, the nun iconography paramount to all Sororitas design and aesthetic. Space Marines have such a hodgepodge of design influences that the whole "warrior monk" thing that many people cite as integral simply doesn't exist across the whole faction. Sure, Black Templars and Dark Angels might still fit that, but Space Wolves? Carcharadons? Ultramarines? They don't have the same design influences, and I've never thought of "male" as integral to their design philosophy - the only justification comes from lore, which exists only to justify outdated consumer decisions.
- Saying "but you could go play X different faction if you wanted Y" ignores that they didn't *want* to play Y Faction, they wanted to play X faction. It'd be like saying "well, I know you like vikings, but I'm sorry, I can't let you make these Tau viking inspired, because of the lore. But you can play Space Wolves!" - it ignores that I never wanted to play Space Wolves, I wanted to play Tau - and why on earth is a piece of outdated fiction being treated as more important than my representation as a *human being*?

It's like arguing that women couldn't possibly enjoy The Lord of the Rings because all of the members of the Fellowship were male...

You literally have no idea what representation means, do you?

And I, for my part, push back on this because I (and anecdotally a lot of people I know) got into 40k and have stuck with it because of the aesthetics and the lore.

So why are you still around? The lore's definitely changed since you arrived in this hobby, so if the lore changing is such a dealbreaker, why are you still here? Or is it *that particular* bit of lore that you need? If so, why? Why is "women can't be Space Marines" the dealbreaker for you?

adding female space marines changes something intrinsic to their identity that feels like vandalism of the lore driven purely by real world politics that shouldn't have any bearing on fiction

Rather, I believe that fiction should have no bearing on what someone chooses to do with their toy soldier dollies. What changes for you, by adding women Astartes - fairly simple question.

Also, being a women isn't political. Sorry to tell you.

. I think the only time 40k has had such a drastic change of a faction's identity (not even because of politics) was Necrons and I still hate that and think it was a mistake.

I must assume that you don't remember when Space Marines were mixed gender then?

Are peeps still denying that women/non-whites/trans folk face harassment and threat purely because they exist in the hobby? Do said peeps follow any of these people hobbyists on social media and see the s**t they have to put up with?

Now hold up... furry space marines might be justifiable. There’s a damn cat furry planet in the lore and space wolf wulfen are like half way there anyways, and god knows what other abhumans exist... and there’s been NO lore to explain why cat furry planet dudes can’t be space marines (to my knowledge, I welcome any corrections to that particular statement). Does the idea of furry space marines make people feel uncomfortable? XD

I firmly believe that it would take a lot of pressure from the community to make advancements or changes to the space marine lore to include female space marines. I don’t think we will see that sort of pressure in the decade unless players start slapping those models on the tables and maybe post them to GW’s Facebook posts... maybe if they see the vitriol first hand that it brings and having to constantly shut it down they’ll make the changes needed.

 Gert wrote:
Are peeps still denying that women/non-whites/trans folk face harassment and threat purely because they exist in the hobby? Do said peeps follow any of these people hobbyists on social media and see the s**t they have to put up with?

I don't see how that has anything to do with Space Marines.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Are peeps still denying that women/non-whites/trans folk face harassment and threat purely because they exist in the hobby? Do said peeps follow any of these people hobbyists on social media and see the s**t they have to put up with?

I don't see how that has anything to do with Space Marines.

I wouldn't, save that some folks here in this thread have been saying that there's no exclusionary behaviours or feelings of harassment* in the hobby that would prompt people to seek representation in the Space Marine range, and that those people are just attention-seeking, or narcissistic, or some other reason that means they don't need to reconsider their position.

When the topic is about women Space Marines, and how many people's reason for having them is because they feel excluded and harassed, and that pushing for representation in the flagship range would lend them a degree of legitimacy, I think it is a relevant topic to bring up, especially when such voices are being so callously dismissed.

*this is, of course, after they ignore the voices of people who do feel excluded and harassed

macluvin wrote:
Now hold up... furry space marines might be justifiable. There’s a damn cat furry planet in the lore and space wolf wulfen are like half way there anyways, and god knows what other abhumans exist... and there’s been NO lore to explain why cat furry planet dudes can’t be space marines (to my knowledge, I welcome any corrections to that particular statement). Does the idea of furry space marines make people feel uncomfortable? XD

I literally built a furry marine chapter... for Slaanesh. Which, being both furries and Slaaneshi, happily and gleefully includes all genders, including binary, nonbinary, imaginary, quadratic and hexadecimal. I even had some help from the SO in sculpting STLs for making male and intersexed furry Daemonettes for the associated Daemon army, which looks like you're being chased down by a furry convention wielding machetes.

That might very well make some people uncomfortable. I'm practically counting on it. :3

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Are peeps still denying that women/non-whites/trans folk face harassment and threat purely because they exist in the hobby? Do said peeps follow any of these people hobbyists on social media and see the s**t they have to put up with?

I don't see how that has anything to do with Space Marines.

I wouldn't, save that some folks here in this thread have been saying that there's no exclusionary behaviours or feelings of harassment* in the hobby that would prompt people to seek representation in the Space Marine range, and that those people are just attention-seeking, or narcissistic, or some other reason that means they don't need to reconsider their position.

When the topic is about women Space Marines, and how many people's reason for having them is because they feel excluded and harassed, and that pushing for representation in the flagship range would lend them a degree of legitimacy, I think it is a relevant topic to bring up, especially when such voices are being so callously dismissed.

*this is, of course, after they ignore the voices of people who do feel excluded and harassed

From my point of view, the important detail is "feelings of exclusion/harassment IN the hobby"
or
"feelings of exclusion/harassment BECAUSE of the hobby"

Because as we should all know, donkey caves gonna donkey cave, probably regardless of the fandom of choice.

 Gert wrote:
Are peeps still denying that women/non-whites/trans folk face harassment and threat purely because they exist in the hobby? Do said peeps follow any of these people hobbyists on social media and see the s**t they have to put up with?

#1 Is it "purely because they exist in the hobby", or do people have an issue with someone saying "Hi fellow gaming enthusiast, nice hobby, how bout we remake it in my image?" Not to say that's always the case. In my neighborhood there's no visible problems, and we see people of diverse genders and nationalities enjoying the hobby together as it is. I'm sure somewhere there are toxic environments, but it's not a problem for all places everywhere, nor does it follow that making female space marines (who in all reality would probability would emerge from the process all but indistinguishable from males given the size/aggression enhancement which most certainly would involve enough testosterone to make any woman into a trans male)

#2 Most assuredly not.

 RegularGuy wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Are peeps still denying that women/non-whites/trans folk face harassment and threat purely because they exist in the hobby? Do said peeps follow any of these people hobbyists on social media and see the s**t they have to put up with?

#1 Is it "purely because they exist in the hobby", or do people have an issue with someone saying "Hi fellow gaming enthusiast, nice hobby, how bout we remake it in my image?" Not to say that's always the case. In my neighborhood there's no visible problems, and we see people of diverse genders and nationalities enjoying the hobby together as it is. I'm sure somewhere there are toxic environments, but it's not a problem for all places everywhere, nor does it follow that making female space marines (who in all reality would probability would emerge from the process all but indistinguishable from males given the size/aggression enhancement which most certainly would involve enough testosterone to make any woman into a trans male)

#2 Most assuredly not.

I am seriously glad that you don't have to see the stuff that occurs in this hobby every day. I'm glad you have that PRIVILEGE. If you have a truly diverse community, and none of them have ever spoken up about their problems with anti/bias/discrimination, it's very likely they don't feel safe or confident telling you about those problems. Case in point, it's not their problem for not telling you, it's your problem for not seeing it and addressing it.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 RegularGuy wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Are peeps still denying that women/non-whites/trans folk face harassment and threat purely because they exist in the hobby? Do said peeps follow any of these people hobbyists on social media and see the s**t they have to put up with?

#1 Is it "purely because they exist in the hobby", or do people have an issue with someone saying "Hi fellow gaming enthusiast, nice hobby, how bout we remake it in my image?" Not to say that's always the case. In my neighborhood there's no visible problems, and we see people of diverse genders and nationalities enjoying the hobby together as it is. I'm sure somewhere there are toxic environments, but it's not a problem for all places everywhere, nor does it follow that making female space marines (who in all reality would probability would emerge from the process all but indistinguishable from males given the size/aggression enhancement which most certainly would involve enough testosterone to make any woman into a trans male)

#2 Most assuredly not.

I am seriously glad that you don't have to see the stuff that occurs in this hobby every day. I'm glad you have that PRIVILEGE. If you have a truly diverse community, and none of them have ever spoken up about their problems with anti/bias/discrimination, it's very likely they don't feel safe or confident telling you about those problems. Case in point, it's not their problem for not telling you, it's your problem for not seeing it and addressing it.

Or it may be a healthy and diverse community where people respect each other. It may be that there isn't a lurking shadow of oppression hiding under every table or in the heart of every other gamer. Half of my dungeons and dragons players are young women, and we've introduced them to the warhammer gaming system. No one has told them they are oppressed, no one has told them to find patriarchy to smash, and as a result we all have a great time together without needing to hunt for or construct oppressors, heretics, or enemies in our community to crusade and signal virtue against.

Also, the term privilege is terribly misused these days. Good communities and fellowship is meticulously cultivated through healthy social exercise not legislated/mandated, and certainly not by applying critical theories to everything and everyone to find evil.

 Jammer87 wrote:

Des702 wrote:
As long as they don't sexulize the armour I don't see how this would really hurt marines.

I don’t know why someone couldn’t just buy a female head and slap it on a Space Marines body right now? The lore?

My Necrons are all female except the named ones.

Because there's no fething human female heads in the GW range, maybe.

As far as "it's not the hobby, it's the donkey caves in the hobby" goes...

if there's a huge number of donkey caves in the hobby... we as non-donkey caves really have to ask ourselves why we're so welcoming to donkey caves that they congregate to our hobby in large numbers...

In effect, there's not really a difference.