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 the_scotsman wrote:

Altima wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Funnily enough, I've been thinking about the Decree Passive a bit over the course of this discussion, and it struck me that not only is it more than a little dated, it doesn't actually make any sense.

From a real world point of view, the Decree Passive was directly born from the inherent sexism of the 80's and '90s. It's a 'joke' that works because we're all supposed to assume that soldiers are men by default, which is the only thing that allows the theoretically more or less egalitarian Imperium having a rule stating that the church can't have 'men at arms' to be logical. And in the early '90's, when soldiers were still by and large men by default, that sort of worked. But by today's standards, it's a 'joke' that doesn't date well, and by the standards of the 41st millennium it's an outright anachronism.

The other part is that in an Imperium where the Inquisition is quick to jump on even their own kind for so much as considering dipping a toe outside the rules (as any given Inquisitor chooses to interpret them), the fact that some member of the church would have got away with raising an army on such a flimsy justification seems more than a little unlikely, and it certainly wouldn't have lasted long enough to build any sizeable force out of it, before some Inquisitor or higher-up with the Ecclesiarchy wandered in and said 'Yes, ok, very funny. Now tell them to put the guns away and go home, or I will stab you.'

Which isn't to say that I have a problem with Sisters of Battle being a thing (while also not being opposed to them being opened out into a general 'Soldiers of the Ecclesiarchy' that allows men as well) .... just that a sexist joke from the '90s that was never intended to really hold up under scrutiny (because nobody back then took the background of the game that seriously) has more than exceeded its use by date, and Sisters need a better reason for existing than 'Hah hah, they're not men, see!'


I feel like, overall, it would be better to change Marines to being either gender, and rework Sisters into a Grey Knight-style Marine Chapter that works directly for the church, with direct supervision by the Inquisition to make sure that no uppity church official chooses to use them for their own ends. As they're a special case, they can still have their unique styling in the same way that Grey Knights do, but they make much more sense than the current set-up.

It was noted in one of the older Witch Hunters codex that, yes, the Lords of Terra are aware that the whole 'men under arms' thing is a violation of the spirit of the treaty and would have nipped it in the bud except that they could co-opt the Adepta Sororitas as the Militant arm of Ordo Hereticus.

So it's less of a wink wink nudge nudge, we go away with it, sort of thing and more like the Sisters of Battle are exceedingly useful in their role in the Inquisition. Which makes sense if you think about it--the Sisters are a semi-independent organization that are trained, housed, and armed for the most part by the Ecclesiarchy, whose goals align fairly well with Ordo Hereticus, and the Lords of Terra don't even have to fund them like they would with, say, Death Watch or the Grey Knights. This is on top of the Sisters' unusual resistance to the ruinous powers.

The in universe excuse for the Decree to remain in place is probably a combination of not rocking the boat, not messing with a good thing, and having it as a potential back-up in the event that they do have to eliminate the Ecclesiarchy's private army.

Given the above, it would be simple for the Imperium to set up a process to legally recognize men in the Adepta Sororitas as 'women' so that everything stays in alignment. Or GW could reintroduce more Inquisition elements back into the book--inquisitorial stormtroopers (which would be all men because the IG are allergic to women models too), Arbites, gangs, etc.

On the other hand, SoB already can include more men in their line-up than the rest of the Imperial forces include women put together, so if we're worried about representation, I wouldn't think this would be a high priority, especially since there are additional all-male armies outside of the astartes already, like orks and necrons. Apart from Dark Eldar, the other non-astartes armies are pretty bad too.

^this. There are male models in all the SoB kits that currently exist that include men, and literally any plastic human kit in existence outside of the sisters of battle range gives you male heads that you can use all day long to make male sisters.

If I bought a box of sisters of battle, with my bits box I could EFFORTLESSLY make an all-male squad.

If I want to make female marines, I must buy sisters of battle boxes to do so, if I want to keep within GW. They (and now, I suppose, the new Guardsmen kit box) are the only source of heads for normal human female heads in the 40k range.

I don't know if I should quite call it effortlessly since you would have to shave off the boobplate.

I would think that the best method would be to leave a couple of male only/female only armies or none at all. If you give all human factions women but exclude men from one you will end up forstering resentment and that makes the fight harder. If you want to coed sisters after doing the same to marines bring in fanatics (both male and female) then inquisitor stormtroopers for the male with the sisters being the female only side.

Saying oh just pop the heads off other kits to make male sisters is really the same argument we are getting from the no-female marines side. While you have tonnes of male heads, that is not true of everyone.

On a side note crons are both male and female but lack personalities for the most part. I would like to balance that by seeing female Cron characters.

...why would a male sister of battle be allowed to change the holy armor plating gifted down to the sororitas since time immemorial?

...and why would the hallowed armor not fit? would his lack of breasts prevent the large sculpted-on armor breasts from functioning somehow?

True it could be extra storage. A sandwich and a baggle.

But more serious I think the game might loose some of it's grim dark in that.

 the_scotsman wrote:
...why would a male sister of battle be allowed to change the holy armor plating gifted down to the sororitas since time immemorial?

...and why would the hallowed armor not fit? would his lack of breasts prevent the large sculpted-on armor breasts from functioning somehow?

Surely there are already available accommodations in the existing Sororitas armors for those would-be martyrs with flatter chests.

Des702 wrote:
I would think that the best method would be to leave a couple of male only/female only armies or none at all. If you give all human factions women but exclude men from one you will end up forstering resentment and that makes the fight harder. If you want to coed sisters after doing the same to marines bring in fanatics (both male and female) then inquisitor stormtroopers for the male with the sisters being the female only side.

None at all is the approach I would be advocating for, because you're right in that consistency is important. If we say, lorewise, that there are female Marines for the sake of representation, there should also be male Sororitas.

Des702 wrote:
True it could be extra storage. A sandwich and a baggle.

But more serious I think the game might loose some of it's grim dark in that.

The same way it did when there were male heads in the new howling banshee kit? (but not female heads in the Incubi kit, sadly, but with the drukhari range that's easy enough to fix as you get tons of both with lots of cool variation)

This is kind of my main thing though. There's still a lot of units that are for no reason made as all-male that could/should be just mixed 50-50, and even when they do manage to get it right, you get kits like the Van Saar gang, where one body is sculpted as female and there's one female head in the kit - so unless you SOMEHOW scrounge up a female head bit from somewhere, your female gang members are all going to be exact clones all in the exact same pose.

Meanwhile, when I was going about making my Deathwatch army where my goal was to have each and every member of my deathwatch be from a distinct chapter with a distinct personality, I had more options than you could shake a stick at:

-Grungy, dirty dozen marines chomping cigars and wearing bandannas and cool shades from the Orlock gang
-marines from a ton of established chapters just out of the deathwatch box
-angelic blonde pretty boy heads from the sanguinary guard box I got a while back
-a "clearly had horns but sawed them off" hellboy inspired blackshield from the Thousand Sons Exalted Sorceror box
-Heavily Cyborgized marines with heads from the Kataphron Servitors and various bareheaded skitarii
-Fabulous flamboyant marines from basically every gay subculture from the space wolves box
-Gaunt secret agent spook marines from the Delaque box
-Special forces beret marines from the Scions box
-Scarred vets from the guard command squad
-Crazy bezerkers with wild hair from the Goliath box

all of it just there kicking around in my bits box from kits I'd gotten over the years, because if you collect any human armies in 40k you get 20-40 spare dude heads.

Yeah and that I feel is the main point of the thread, not only has GW failed by having their very obvious flagship faction be male only but almost all other armies are supposed to be coed but fail spectacularly. I mean my Imperial Guard look like they are all taking a collective dump...

The new head pack is a god send. As for how I hope GW rolls out this glaring mistake, I would hope to see one head sprue to add in female marines then new updated kits for all of the factions (especially models in failcast) that allow proper coed with lots of heads and torsos with legs being the limiting factor. Then new female special characters for crons, Admech and tau (in all three the grunts would be impossible to tell).

***List is not exhaustive I may have forgotten about a faction but that would be the gist***

Edit: as for orks... I don't know how you would feminize a faction fully built on poking fun at toxic masculinity.... I know originally they we soccer/football hooligans but it really fits Toxic Masculinity well.

Des702 wrote:
Edit: as for orks... I don't know how you would feminize a faction fully built on poking fun at toxic masculinity.... I know originally they we soccer/football hooligans but it really fits Toxic Masculinity well.

To be honest, hooligans and hooliganism in general is an expression of toxic masculinity. In my opinion, its okay to have mono-gender factions. The problem is when you have several mono-gender factions, all of the same gender, co-ed factions that are almost exclusively, if not completely, mono-gender (and of the same gender than the mono-gender faction). In other words, in a game where representation is good across the board, a few mono-gender faction is nice to have around, but in a game with poor diversity, mono-gender faction feel like a constrain.

That being said, prior to release of the new Sisters of Battle and the massive influx of fluff about them since their return, I don't think it's necessary or even pertinent for GW to produce female Space Marines. If you want to make some or invent your own, slightly heretical Chapter, that found a way to recruit women in their ranks, I have no problem with that. I think, GW should focus more on making the Imperial Guard, Eldars and Dark Eldars properly co-ed. If there were to have female Space Marines, I would make them a Chaos exclusive thing.

Des702 wrote:
Yeah and that I feel is the main point of the thread, not only has GW failed by having their very obvious flagship faction be male only but almost all other armies are supposed to be coed but fail spectacularly. I mean my Imperial Guard look like they are all taking a collective dump...

The new head pack is a god send. As for how I hope GW rolls out this glaring mistake, I would hope to see one head sprue to add in female marines then new updated kits for all of the factions (especially models in failcast) that allow proper coed with lots of heads and torsos with legs being the limiting factor. Then new female special characters for crons, Admech and tau (in all three the grunts would be impossible to tell).

***List is not exhaustive I may have forgotten about a faction but that would be the gist***

Edit: as for orks... I don't know how you would feminize a faction fully built on poking fun at toxic masculinity.... I know originally they we soccer/football hooligans but it really fits Toxic Masculinity well.

You don't really need to feminize orks, just like how it's not needed for somethin like nids. They're just both forces of nature.

Orks don't need to be feminised at all because they aren't technically males, they're fungus that look dude enough to be given male pronouns.
I think adding more special characters to Necrons who already have 11 named character units is a solid pass. T'au maybe but what is it going to be apart from just another Battlesuit commander. Admech I think are fine and GW just needs to focus more on the fact that Magi can be pretty much anything considering their "enlightened" state of mind (i.e. Binary is for code, not gender) and the fact that some Magi are actually multiple minds connected to one overmind, sort of like a mini hive mind.
As a whole, more emphasis needs to be put on "Your Dudes" in 40k which Crusade I feel does really well, but it still feels like it's more of a side option compared to AoS where the Anvil of Apotheosis (custom charachter generator) is a thing.

 Gert wrote:

Spoiler:

Des702 wrote:
Yeah and that I feel is the main point of the thread, not only has GW failed by having their very obvious flagship faction be male only but almost all other armies are supposed to be coed but fail spectacularly. I mean my Imperial Guard look like they are all taking a collective dump...

The new head pack is a god send. As for how I hope GW rolls out this glaring mistake, I would hope to see one head sprue to add in female marines then new updated kits for all of the factions (especially models in failcast) that allow proper coed with lots of heads and torsos with legs being the limiting factor. Then new female special characters for crons, Admech and tau (in all three the grunts would be impossible to tell).

***List is not exhaustive I may have forgotten about a faction but that would be the gist***

Edit: as for orks... I don't know how you would feminize a faction fully built on poking fun at toxic masculinity.... I know originally they we soccer/football hooligans but it really fits Toxic Masculinity well.

Orks don't need to be feminised at all because they aren't technically males, they're fungus that look dude enough to be given male pronouns.
I think adding more special characters to Necrons who already have 11 named character units is a solid pass. T'au maybe but what is it going to be apart from just another Battlesuit commander. Admech I think are fine and GW just needs to focus more on the fact that Magi can be pretty much anything considering their "enlightened" state of mind (i.e. Binary is for code, not gender) and the fact that some Magi are actually multiple minds connected to one overmind, sort of like a mini hive mind.
As a whole, more emphasis needs to be put on "Your Dudes" in 40k which Crusade I feel does really well, but it still feels like it's more of a side option compared to AoS where the Anvil of Apotheosis (custom charachter generator) is a thing.

Ok was not aware crons had 11 named characters. I can only think of 4 off the top of my head but fair enough with the special characters.

Orks I wasn't really advocating for female/femininity, more so just stating that if you really wanted some, as some people suggested they wanted all coed and others even listed orks as a "male" faction that it would be hard as they are the toxic masculinity faction and technally sexless.

Hell I think for Admech you could hammer that point home by having Cawl use "they, them" pronouns as technically they have multiple minds (both male and female) within them.

Bingo, I think a non-binary Admech character was even included in a book recently but obviously the reaction by the vocal minority was what it was and it soured what should have been a cool thing.

I feel that at this point in the story, they have an easy ability to add a female space marine chapter and female space marines across the other chapters.

Cawl recently created the means to create primaris marines. If they added that if the process was performed on a sister of battle, then due to some miracle of the emperor, they also can very rarely live through the process.

Gillman dictates that as a new space marine, they must fall under a chapter and cannot stay as part of the sisters organization. They make a new chapter with the same general goals as the sisters of battle and some new sister space marines join the various chapters as new training is needed to handle the 4ish new feet gained of super human that they are.

Write this in a way more skillfully than an internet warrior. Make it use more setting correct verbiage but the ability to use cawl's new tool and Gilliam's authority allows you to not have to retcon the past but show better change for future stories.

And then emperor wasn't a misogynist as regular space marines couldn't, but miracle + new primaris can have it function.

Why shouldn’t the emperor be a misogynist, he was a complete douche to everyone else, a massive racist, murderer and crushed all rival religions. Misogyny isn’t a big stretch.

The fluff for my female marines is that it was always possible, just the emperor didn’t want female marines so said it couldn’t be done. When my chapter started making new marines (a primaris new founded chapter) they didn’t get the memo about “no girls” so made female marines. They found it works as well and if not a little better and now word has spread and more chapters are recruiting women.

The reasons for the emperors rules on no women isn’t stated in my fluff but it is noted that he appears to like the company of men better.

 the_scotsman wrote:
This is kind of my main thing though. There's still a lot of units that are for no reason made as all-male that could/should be just mixed 50-50, and even when they do manage to get it right, you get kits like the Van Saar gang, where one body is sculpted as female and there's one female head in the kit - so unless you SOMEHOW scrounge up a female head bit from somewhere, your female gang members are all going to be exact clones all in the exact same pose.

I agree 100%. I'm pretty curious to see the new Stormcast sprues because it seems like GW have tried to balance the kit ~50/50 male-female and are adding more diversity of heads as well. Hopefully it ends up being pretty good and we'll see that trend continue onward in future human kits for both 40k and AoS.

As for the kits already out, maybe GW could be persuaded to do a few faction upgrade sprues of some variety, similar to what the Guardsman squad is getting. They clearly are open to the idea as Forge World also made that pack of female Stormcast heads and female Orlock add-ons.

Des702 wrote:
Yeah and that I feel is the main point of the thread, not only has GW failed by having their very obvious flagship faction be male only but almost all other armies are supposed to be coed but fail spectacularly. I mean my Imperial Guard look like they are all taking a collective dump...

The new head pack is a god send. As for how I hope GW rolls out this glaring mistake, I would hope to see one head sprue to add in female marines then new updated kits for all of the factions (especially models in failcast) that allow proper coed with lots of heads and torsos with legs being the limiting factor. Then new female special characters for crons, Admech and tau (in all three the grunts would be impossible to tell).

***List is not exhaustive I may have forgotten about a faction but that would be the gist***

Edit: as for orks... I don't know how you would feminize a faction fully built on poking fun at toxic masculinity.... I know originally they we soccer/football hooligans but it really fits Toxic Masculinity well.

I completely agree that until recently GW have been (and as the_scotsman pointed out, still kind of are) dropping the ball when it comes to representing the full range of diversity that the lore has always described.

I think the solution to the imbalance really should be an increase in seeing factions other than space marines feature more prominently in GW works and even have some marine-less starter boxes. Space Marines aren't even really that much easier to paint that most other armies provided you aren't comparing a basic Marine to some other faction's super bling-ed out infantry. Especially when you consider how complex models were in something like Dark Vengeance, which lasted for 2 entire editions...

Plus the way GW is going with having multiple "vs boxes" per year and an "enthusiast box" separate from the actual starter set there's no reason that the starter needs to be linked to the currently obligatory yearly marine box...

 Gert wrote:
Bingo, I think a non-binary Admech character was even included in a book recently but obviously the reaction by the vocal minority was what it was and it soured what should have been a cool thing.

The thing is, there is almost always going to be some amount of people that disagree with just about anything you can think of. Whether it's ideological difference, bias, or just plain contrarianism people manage to find ways to disagree with one another, that's part of life.

But people disagreeing with something, no matter the reason, only sours that thing if you let it. At the end of the day, if there's a non-binary Admech character in the canon and that's important to you (I haven't read a lot of the recent books so sorry I'm not familiar with the character), then celebrate that and don't let the contrarians badger other people about it.

For what it's worth, that's how I feel about about people attempting to push for changes to Space Marines...

kinginyello wrote:
I feel that at this point in the story, they have an easy ability to add a female space marine chapter and female space marines across the other chapters.

Cawl recently created the means to create primaris marines. If they added that if the process was performed on a sister of battle, then due to some miracle of the emperor, they also can very rarely live through the process.

Gillman dictates that as a new space marine, they must fall under a chapter and cannot stay as part of the sisters organization. They make a new chapter with the same general goals as the sisters of battle and some new sister space marines join the various chapters as new training is needed to handle the 4ish new feet gained of super human that they are.

Write this in a way more skillfully than an internet warrior. Make it use more setting correct verbiage but the ability to use cawl's new tool and Gilliam's authority allows you to not have to retcon the past but show better change for future stories.

And then emperor wasn't a misogynist as regular space marines couldn't, but miracle + new primaris can have it function.

Ok, so I want to comment on this because people have been making very similar assertions all over Dakka and it typically goes unchallenged. This is going to sound like a hot take, but:

Lorewise, Cawl really didn't do anything that significant and the Primaris marines really aren't that significantly different from Firstborn.

Guilliman gives Cawl a device, previously used by the Emperor, called the Sangprimus Portum which has copies of the genetic codes of all 20 primarchs. Basically Cawl takes roughly 10,000 years to badly copy the Emperor's homework (as illustrated by him only being able to copy half of one of the organs because the data for the other half was missing) to make two organs and one "organ". What do the organs do? One makes marines biggie sized like the primarchs (but not too big because it's only half of the organ...), the second makes and excretes a chemical that improves their ability to heal, and the third "organ" is Cawl wrapping steel mesh around all of their muscles making them more durable. Oh and he gave them less degraded geneseed, which turned out to not matter because all the marines still have their flaws anyway...

Beyond that we got a new mark of power armor, new, slightly bigger, patterns of the same weapons that Space Marines have always had, and new vehicles that look like Cawl played paper dolls with photos of various STC constructions and had an odd obsession with the land speeder's grav assembly. None of that is particularly wild in a setting where the Imperium has made multiple different patterns and variants of things due to the STC nature of their technology, except for the organs bit. And again, Cawl just ended up badly plagiarizing the Emperor's work to make minor changes.

The last thing was Cawl/Guilliman restructuring the way that squad layouts worked to be more Legion-esq and basically throwing the codex Astartes out the window in the process.

The problem in the real world is that if you do all of this at the same time it's liable to upset a lot of the fans. Especially when you do it using a previously unknown character, reveal it at the end of a very climactic narrative event, after having just returned another incredibly significant character from near death, and then say "they are stronger than the old ones!"

A lot of people agree that the lore changes were all just economics based to begin with (which is why the changes are not really that crazy). Basically in the real world GW had run out of new Marine accessories to sell and the only two things the community consistently asked for was "truescaled marines" and "make them feel tougher like in the novels". So GW made a new armor pattern in a bigger scale, but they needed a way to ensure people would actual buy them rather than just proxy their old models for the new ones. So they did everything they could to make them as functionally incompatible as possible.

The marines are on bigger bases and have the same base weapon but with multiple unique variants which makes proxying them hard. All the special weapons are in separate squads meaning that even if you wanted to proxy them, most players would have enough identical special weapon gunners lying around to do it. The jump pack and terminator equivalents are both heavier armored and uses a dual ranged weapon configuration which wasn't legal on old marines. All the vehicles are differently sized and have totally different numbers of weapons. Also the marines are canonically a head taller and have a different number of wounds (prior to the later update) so they don't get to use your old vehicles for some reason and also it might confuse people if you use old marine bodies with new ones because the have different stats... So you should just re-buy your whole army right?

But yeah, tl;dr primaris lore really doesn't really have any changes about how marines are made or the in setting science behind it. It was just a pretty blatant attempt to force the community to re-buy their marine armies by not really changing things enough to cause outright fan revolt, but just enough to make it more or less unfeasible for the majority of players to just ignore the changes or proxy old models.

I mean sure if you ignore the strength, toughness, extra organs, less degraded genetic code from gene-seed, and seemingly increased willpower/resistance to Chaotic influence, then Primaris are absolutely the same as Firstborn. The fact GW kept the gene-flaws in the Primaris was a welcome surprise because it meant these new lads weren't super perfect win machines.
Add in the fact that the Primaris are to the Firstborn what the Firstborn were to the Thunder-Warriors, a new generation come to supplant them to fight new wars.
Guilliman was fully aware of how adding thousands of new SM to the Chapters and founding new Chapters while going on crusade as the Emperor's Regent would look to the High Lords. His views on the Church are also well known and he has to balance that with his GC-era idealism.
The Codex is still a thing btw it just got adapted to fit the new Primaris units into it. The old Chapter org style is still there, still 10 companies with 1 vet, 4 battle, 4 reserve, and a scout company.
The chance for an Imperial civil war is still a relatively big one as there are multiple organisations opposed to even the idea of Guilliman.
You can choose to ignore what is actually happening in the new stories/lore but it's still there.

Obviously, they were added to get people to rebuy their armies, why are you acting like that's a surprising thing?

Andykp wrote:
Why shouldn’t the emperor be a misogynist, he was a complete douche to everyone else, a massive racist, murderer and crushed all rival religions. Misogyny isn’t a big stretch.

The problem with this concept is that it normalizes that behavior. It's fine if it's a straight-up villain being this way because it demonizes that behavior. But fully half the factions and more than half the representation yells out "For the emperor!" And while someone steeped in the lore knows that yeah the emperor was a massive donkey cave and not really what you want to look up to and all the factions are massively flawed and there are no good guys in this setting, people looking to get into the hobby won't have that knowledge very accessible to them.

Besides we've seen when someone in charge, even if they are fictional, is misogynistic and racist it normalizes the behavior to players. I mean we have a fairly outspoken group that does just that and yes while most of it's centered around Arch Warhammer he still is fairly popular.

Still nobody wants to answer the question of this entire discussion. If Space Marines were to suddenly be female capable, would that make you stop playing 40k?

Removed - ingtær

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Still nobody wants to answer the question of this entire discussion. If Space Marines were to suddenly be female capable, would that make you stop playing 40k?

If everyone did and went on to play Hail Ceasar, would you then demand they introduce female roman legionaries/ phalangist ?

Yes, because that's what racism and sexism are. You are very smart! I'm glad that you know the contents of Mein Kampf well enough to know how a word replacement would go. That's very interesting.

So a hypothetical: you make female space marines.Well done. You have representation and cure the world problem of sexism.

As a result those thousands and thousands of nasty gate keeping biggoted sexist white men that ruin 40k for women, leave 40k.

Lets say those nasty gatekeepers then go play hail ceasar, and make it into a widespread successful game most local communities drift to and ends up being more successful/played than 40k.

Do people demand hail Caesar address representation?

Argive wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Still nobody wants to answer the question of this entire discussion. If Space Marines were to suddenly be female capable, would that make you stop playing 40k?

If everyone did and went on to play Hail Ceasar, would you then demand they introduce female roman legionaries/ phalangist ?

Answer the question. Hail Caesar has nothing to do with this.

Argive wrote:So a hypothetical: you make female space marines.Well done. You have representation and cure the world problem of sexism.

As a result those thousands and thousands of nasty gate keeping biggoted sexist white men that ruin 40k for women, leave 40k.

Lets say those nasty gatekeepers then go play hail ceasar, and make it into a widespread successful game most local communities drift to and ends up being more successful/played than 40k.

Do people demand hail Caesar address representation?

Is this a Hail Caesar subforum? Does Hail Caesar have anything to do with women Space Marines?
I thought not.

Would having women Space Marines stop you playing?

I must confess I don't understand why Games Workshop should create a female space marines chapter, if we already have the Sisters of Battle, which already are de facto the female equivalent of the Space Marines. So it would be enough state that the Adeptus Mechanicus have finally find a way to make the Space Marines' genetic enhancements compatible with the female physiology and give them to the Sisters of Battles to have a female army practically equal to the male Space Marines in (almost) everything.
In my opinion it would be a (by far) more interesting option, than the idea (for me really boring) to create the umpteenth new Space chapter.

If we get a whole new never ending set of kits/upgrades for marines I'm definitely dropping 40k.. I'm fed up with never ending marine releases while im stuck with failcrap models.

People have argued to no end that SOB and guard should be the poster child with new awesome female centric models, and we've yet to see any concession why that is not a viable solution and male only space marines must end...

Me bringing up hail ceasar has to do with 40k. This is because the main argument seems to be that male only space marines facilitate sexist gatekeeping boys-only group which is bad for women.

That argument also has nothing to do with 40k or lore.. But rather based on real world ideology and socio-political viewpoints

If we take it at face value and say there are indeed thousands of bigoted gatekeeper white men(which I certainly disagree with). And they really cant abide by female space marines; So if you eject those gatekeepers from 40k by introducing female space marines , they will go somewhere right?

Its been suggested these groups are somehow organised in some sort of collective way in grups/reddits whatever...
Lets say they go away from 40k and join a new Hail Caesar thing which then becomes wildly successful and other 40k people get attracted to it instead of 40k and it gains wide adoption, do you them to it?

I think its a very valid question.
Is there a representation issue with Hail Caesar?

ould there be an issue with Hail Cesar IF it overtakes 40k in terms of popularity, engagement and hobby uptake?

The_Grim_Angel wrote:I must confess I don't understand why Games Workshop should create a female space marines chapter, if we already have the Sisters of Battle, which already are de facto the female equivalent of the Space Marines.

They're as much female Space Marines as Custodes are to regular Space Marines.

Their aesthetic is completely different, their gameplay is completely different, their background and methods of warfare are completely different, they're physically different, and the focus they get in the wider meta-narrative isn't anywhere near equal.

Sisters aren't Space Marines.

In my opinion it would be a more interesting option, than the idea (for me really boring) to create the umpteenth new Space chapter.

It wouldn't be a new Chapter - it'd be adding women into existing Chapters.

Argive wrote:If we get a whole new never ending set of kits/upgrades for marines I'm definitely dropping 40k.. I'm fed up with never ending marine releases while im stuck with failcrap models.

Pretty sure people have only been advocating for a single sprue. That's much more palatable than all the subfaction sprues we got.

People have argued to no end that SOB and guard should be the poster child with new awesome female centric models, and we've yet to see any concession why that is not a viable solution and male only space marines must end...

You must have missed my comments then.

The reason why this doesn't work in practice is that Space Marines are the poster boys by a LONG way. To remove them from that pedestal, you'd need to basically write a book series greater than the Horus Heresy, and all the other Marine-centric books, a whole swathe of new Guardsmen subfactions all with their own models and units and sub-codexes, change *all* the external branding to have generic human soldiers (not very marketable) instead of the Iconic Space Marine, a new game system a la the Horus Heresy where it's just guardsmen, inject the absolute thousands upon thousands of pounds into that, and that would still not even touch upon the massive cultural impact that Space Marines have on 40k as a whole.

Versus one (1) sprue of women heads designed for Space Marines, future SM releases exchanging some male heads for women, and a single line of lore. Pretty sure that one's vastly cheaper and easier.

Me bringing up hail ceasar has to do with 40k.

Howso?

This is because the main argument seems to be that male only space marines facilitate sexist gatekeeping boys-only group which is bad for women.

Which they do, yes.

That argument also has nothing to do with 40k or lore..

Lore is made up. If your argument about real world representation is consulting made up fiction before you consider the real people it affects, your argument is kinda sketchy.

But rather based on real world ideology and socio-political viewpoints

Women having representation isn't a problem is it?

If we take it at face value and say there are indeed thousands of bigoted gatekeeper white men(which I certainly disagree with).

You can disagree with it, but you'd be factually incorrect. And you can leave the racebaiting out, and just leave it as "gatekeepers", yes? Just so you don't turn this into some kind of strawman.

And they really cant abide by female space marines; So if you eject those gatekeepers from 40k by introducing female space marines , they will go somewhere right?

I frankly don't care where they go, to be honest. If they infest some other group, I'd hope that other group treated them in the same manner I would.

Its been suggested these groups are somehow organised in some sort of collective way in grups/reddits whatever...
Lets say they go away from 40k and join a new Hail Caesar thing which then becomes wildly successful and other 40k people get attracted to it instead of 40k and it gains wide adoption, do you them to it?

It's got nothing to do with me, because I don't play Hail Caesar, and this is a 40k subforum. What they do is unimportant to this discussion.

I think its a very valid question.
Is there a representation issue with Hail Caesar?

I don't play Hail Caesar, so why would I know?
If there are people who are calling for representation, why shouldn't they have it?

ould there be an issue with Hail Cesar IF it overtakes 40k in terms of popularity, engagement and hobby uptake?

Not as far as I'm concerned, no. You seem to be implying something along the lines of "GW need us anti-women Space Marine hobbyists, because if they add women, we'll just go somewhere else and make that an exclusive, non-representative boys-only club".

Quite frankly, if people leave 40k because they can't handle women Space Marines, that's their problem.

Sexism - prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Feminism - the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.

Before Argive spouts more nonsense and troll points, it's imperative we setup bastions of fact.

Feminism is the literal antithesis of Sexism.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Sexism - prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Feminism - the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.

Before Argive spouts more nonsense and troll points, it's imperative we setup bastions of fact.

Feminism is the literal antithesis of Sexism.

It's important to note that there are different waves of feminism, and I would argue the latest one has veered significantly off on the origins of the first two waves of feminism, and in many cases I would say have regressed backwards.

I would caution pushing this too far past the original topic though since we are already borderline going into politics territory.

Personally though, if they did release female space marines, I probably wouldn't stop playing the game altogether because I only play Orks anyways, but I would dread it becoming start of the slippery slope of what has happened to Star Wars, Star Trek and soon to be LoTR with Amazon's abomination of a TV show with how these franchises get their lore and underpinning stories changed willy nilly because everything has to be seen through the lens of a supposedly utopian ideal of representation.

I would also hate that other factions get neglected yet again for another unnecessary SM update. I know people are arguing that "oh, it'll just be one upgrade sprue" but let's be real, if it's GW and their cash cow, they rarely half-ass model releases for them and they will have at least a full month of different chapter specific female upgrades that take up the slot of an army that needs actual loving/updating.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The_Grim_Angel wrote:I must confess I don't understand why Games Workshop should create a female space marines chapter, if we already have the Sisters of Battle, which already are de facto the female equivalent of the Space Marines.

They're as much female Space Marines as Custodes are to regular Space Marines.

Their aesthetic is completely different, their gameplay is completely different, their background and methods of warfare are completely different, they're physically different, and the focus they get in the wider meta-narrative isn't anywhere near equal.
[…]

That is why I think it is an extremely boring option: it wouldn't add nothing to the lore and to the game; especially if they were only space marines women in the existent space marines chapters.

Grimskul wrote:Personally though, if they did release female space marines, I probably wouldn't stop playing the game altogether because I only play Orks anyways, but I would dread it becoming start of the slippery slope of what has happened to Star Wars, Star Trek and soon to be LoTR with Amazon's abomination of a TV show with how these franchises get their lore and underpinning stories changed willy nilly because everything has to be seen through the lens of a supposedly utopian ideal of representation.

Star Trek has *always* been "woke". It literally was designed to be a utopian setting.

And again, what exactly is the problem with representation here? Why is lore more important than representation here?

I would also hate that other factions get neglected yet again for another unnecessary SM update.

It's a new sprue of heads and a new sentence of lore. Hardly a massive cost from GW to do.

Also, you say unnecessary, but I don't think that's really your call to declare unilaterally.

I know people are arguing that "oh, it'll just be one upgrade sprue" but let's be real, if it's GW and their cash cow, they rarely half-ass model releases for them and they will have at least a full month of different chapter specific female upgrades that take up the slot of an army that needs actual loving/updating.

Going by that logic, wanting representation in other factions won't work either because GW will still prioritise Space Marines and dedicate tons of resources to them.

And you again say "actual loving/updating" - I'd say that adding women Space Marines is something in need of actual loving/updating. Space Marines? Not really. Women Space Marines. Long overdue, ever since their removal decades ago.

The_Grim_Angel wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The_Grim_Angel wrote:I must confess I don't understand why Games Workshop should create a female space marines chapter, if we already have the Sisters of Battle, which already are de facto the female equivalent of the Space Marines.

They're as much female Space Marines as Custodes are to regular Space Marines.

Their aesthetic is completely different, their gameplay is completely different, their background and methods of warfare are completely different, they're physically different, and the focus they get in the wider meta-narrative isn't anywhere near equal.
[…]

That is why I think it is an extremely boring option: it wouldn't add nothing to the lore and to the game

...uh, representation? The whole point of this endeavour?

especially if they were only space marines women in the existent space marines chapters.

Why is that a problem again? We can have men in those Chapters, why not women?

Star Wars got "ruined" because the sequels lacked a coherent story.
Star Trek is a lefty fantasy land that famously tackles social issues constantly and had many minority main characters (Sulu, Uhura, Sisko, etc.)
I haven't read anything about what's happening with Amazon's LotR so I can't comment.