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Yes yes. In the grim darkness of identity politics there is only war it seems.
Ascribe to me heresies And beliefs I do not hold to. Demonize anyone who doesn't see necessity in a corporation modifying its product in the name of your crusade. Declare the identities of those you define as your enemies, recite your littanies of faith. Who could ask an ecclaiarch to be anything but what he is.
I'll say it again since it seems to be easy to miss. It is not necessary for a corporation to change a successful product simply because it has a male fraternity as a feature. Beyond the headspace of revolutionary identity politics is not evil to hold this opinion.
Neither of your latter assertions are necessary for 40k to survive because the mere existence of a popular male faction in fiction is not hatred of women, nor is the tolerance or enjoyment of its existence hatred.
At least not to people who haven't been evangelized to what seems more and more ironically resemble the beginnings of an cultural imperial crusade.
I seems I am a heretic priest, because I do not see the world as you do. I bear you no ill will, and I do not harbor the evil you imagine, but I recognize how you can not see the world beyond your faith. Be yourself I guess, what else can you be? Just be careful the righteous crusade of strife doesn't leave manbkind a prize as twisted as the imperium
Wut....
Are you one of those 40k hobbyists who can only see things in relation to the Imperium? Cos this is kind of weird chief.
The only things I'm setting up shrines to is the Crab from AoS.
Spoiler:
Praise be!
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/08 14:34:45
RegularGuy wrote: Yes yes. In the grim darkness of identity politics there is only war it seems.
Including women isn't identity politics. Sheesh.
Ascribe to me heresies And beliefs I do not hold to. Demonize anyone who doesn't see necessity in a corporation modifying its product in the name of your crusade. Declare the identities of those you define as your enemies, recite your littanies of faith. Who could ask an ecclaiarch to be anything but what he is.
What on earth are you wittering about? You're the only one saying this.
I'll say it again since it seems to be easy to miss. It is not necessary for a corporation to change a successful product simply because it has a male fraternity as a feature. Beyond the headspace of revolutionary identity politics is not evil to hold this opinion.
No-one said that. The issue is that the male fraternity is the flagship.
Also, why would adding women lessen that "successful product"? And also, why is adding women something only for "revolutionary identity politics"?
Neither of your latter assertions are necessary for 40k to survive because the mere existence of a popular male faction in fiction is not hatred of women, nor is the tolerance or enjoyment of its existence hatred.
No-one said it was. But you're ignoring that it's not just "mere existence" of that male faction, it's the cultural dominance of that faction which is the problem.
At least not to people who haven't been evangelized to what seems more and more ironically resemble the beginnings of an cultural imperial crusade.
I seems I am a heretic priest, because I do not see the world as you do. I bear you no ill will, and I do not harbor the evil you imagine, but I recognize how you can not see the world beyond your faith. Be yourself I guess, what else can you be? Just be careful the righteous crusade of strife doesn't leave manbkind a prize as twisted as the imperium
What's with all the crusade imagery? You're the only one bringing that into this.
Why is "we'd like some women Space Marines" forcing such evocative and, dare I say, antagonistic imagery out of you? The only person making this sound political is you.
Also, on that last bit - why on earth would adding women Space Marines "leave mankind a prize as twisted as the Imperium"? What could that possibly do with it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/08 14:36:46
The Crab has chosen me to be its messenger to the world. I am the true prophet.
All Space Marines will be girls and will have pigtails and pink dresses.
SO SAYS THE CRAB!
You know, I had made a big post replying to everything but I decided against it so I could focus on a question that I realised is much more important.
Why does anyone need to be represented by marines at all?
I'm male, and I don't feel like these fictional super soldiers who have bionic implants, are 7-8ft tall, immensely strong, live to serve a clearly evil empire and do battle in space and on other planets with all manner of aliens and daemonic entities in a galaxy that is in perpetual war, and they also happen to be male, represent me at all. Of all those things, the one thing I have in common with a space marine is that we are both male. that's hardly a defining feature.
My next question is:
What would representing anyone achieve?
So, you add female heads to the marines. What does this achieve? what is gained here? One more faction has female models, but what does that mean to anyone?
a genuine question. I don't know the answer.
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
some bloke wrote: Why does anyone need to be represented by marines at all?
Maybe no-one does need representing by Space Marines. But the only way that works is if no-one is implicitly represented in the first place.
Daemons do this. Tyranids do this. Necrons do this, to an extent.
But Space Marines are very much male-coded, from their heads to their pronouns. They are a form of "male" representation, even if you feel emboldened by it or not. If we want to say "no-one should feel represented by Space Marines", then we need to strip away those forms of male representation.
I'm male, and I don't feel like these fictional super soldiers who have bionic implants, are 7-8ft tall, immensely strong, live to serve a clearly evil empire and do battle in space and on other planets with all manner of aliens and daemonic entities in a galaxy that is in perpetual war, and they also happen to be male, represent me at all. Of all those things, the one thing I have in common with a space marine is that we are both male. that's hardly a defining feature.
Agreed, it's not a defining feature. So why would them also happening to be women be an issue?
Again, you misunderstand what representation is - take Black Panther. Your average black kid won't be from a super secret isolationist nation-state, wear a suit of incredibly advanced magic metal, be the monarch of a sovereign nation, and go and fight superpowered criminals and aliens. But Black Panther is still a figure of representation for that kid.
It's not about being able to be exactly the same - it's about being able to say "hey, they look close enough like me!"
This is especially pertinent to groups that don't often get good representation, so seeing representation of them being able to do everything else everyone else can is massively affirming.
I again ask what would be wrong with adding women in the first place?
My next question is:
What would representing anyone achieve?
Are you asking here what the point of representation is?
So, you add female heads to the marines. What does this achieve? what is gained here? One more faction has female models, but what does that mean to anyone?
a genuine question. I don't know the answer.
The feeling of being welcomed. The feeling of acceptance, and that you are valid and welcome aboard. That there are no doors closed to you, that you are seen, that your opinions have been noted, and that you personally are welcome and equal in a position of prominence. And, on the other way around, the active rejection of representation sends a message that you are not valued, that you are not considered important as a human being, and that you have been sidelined in favour of made-up reasons.
I don't have all the answers, but as someone for whom representation is important, those are some of the reasons.
Does that satisfy you?
As a counterquestion, I ask why shouldn't we represent people who ask for it? Why shouldn't we listen to people who ask for representation?
some bloke wrote: You know, I had made a big post replying to everything but I decided against it so I could focus on a question that I realised is much more important.
Why does anyone need to be represented by marines at all?
I'm male, and I don't feel like these fictional super soldiers who have bionic implants, are 7-8ft tall, immensely strong, live to serve a clearly evil empire and do battle in space and on other planets with all manner of aliens and daemonic entities in a galaxy that is in perpetual war, and they also happen to be male, represent me at all. Of all those things, the one thing I have in common with a space marine is that we are both male. that's hardly a defining feature.
My next question is:
What would representing anyone achieve?
So, you add female heads to the marines. What does this achieve? what is gained here? One more faction has female models, but what does that mean to anyone?
a genuine question. I don't know the answer.
1) because people seem to like it
2) market studies across multiple industries have shown that people who view a product as 'for them' are more likely to purchase that product
like I've said, this entire time: GW is just a business. they will make whatever decision makes them more money, for whatever reason. Obviously and blatantly the addition of the Primaris space marine model range alongside the firstborn model range does not make 40k a "better game" but GW's marketing calculus indicated that keeping the two of them up to date with the rules would generate more money than the options of not releasing primaris space marines at all and releasing models for other armies instead, or releasing them as replacements for firstborn units that theyre obviously meant to replace.
The spending power of teenage/young white males in the 80s and 90s was approximately 4-5 times higher than it is in the present day. Across basically every entertainment sector that previously used to cater exclusively to that demographic of consumers, companies have expanded their marketing very commonly using diverse representation in order to maintain the value of their product market.
Now, I'll leave this here, and I'm sure someone who disagrees with me will shortly post several paragraphs about the grand revolutionary ideology conspiratorially infiltrating the entire world with their sinister motives, so that you can go "Gwarsh golly it sure seems like both sides of this issue are cuhraaaaazy!"
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The feeling of being welcomed. The feeling of acceptance, and that you are valid and welcome aboard. That there are no doors closed to you, that you are seen, that your opinions have been noted, and that you personally are welcome and equal in a position of prominence. And, on the other way around, the active rejection of representation sends a message that you are not valued, that you are not considered important as a human being, and that you have been sidelined in favour of made-up reasons.
I don't have all the answers, but as someone for whom representation is important, those are some of the reasons.
Does that satisfy you?
As a counterquestion, I ask why shouldn't we represent people who ask for it? Why shouldn't we listen to people who ask for representation?
Okay, I understand that. I feel perhaps that the need to feel included in the space marines is misplaced, but then I consider them to be kind of outside humanity.
In response to your counter question - I don't have an issue with people being represented. My personal views are that by insisting that people of all >insert your preferred method of dividing people up here< are represented in everything, you exacerbate the issue of >that method of dividing people<, because people start feeling they need to see >their division of people< in everything.
As a curiosity, what do we consider doing with Sisters of Battle, a faction entirely built around female characters. Nobody (that I've seen) has said we need male sisters of battle to make the faction representative of men. The only sisters player I've ever encountered was a guy, I doubt he had such issues.
Inclusion is a far, far bigger issue than the models - it's the environment in GW stores, the general demeanor is often one of amazement that there's a woman in the store. I cringe when I'm in there and everyone just stares, it's a very awkward atmosphere to be in!
But all told, I am not against female marines, either by a fluff or headswap (or even full model kit) point of view. I just wondered if it's really necessary - and it does seem to hold a fair bit of sway, so I guess it is.
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
the_scotsman wrote: […]
2) market studies across multiple industries have shown that people who view a product as 'for them' are more likely to purchase that product
[…]
Not really true, in fact (like I have already written) the US comic industry had to face the bitter truth: more female (or black or gay or whatever) characters don't mean more sales; like the Marvel executive David Gabriel stated in this interview: https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/37152/marvels-david-gabriel-2016-market-shift «[…]
I don't know if that's a question for me. I think that's a better question for retailers who are seeing all publishers. What we heard was that people didn't want any more diversity. They didn't want female characters out there. That's what we heard, whether we believe that or not. I don't know that that's really true, but that's what we saw in sales.
We saw the sales of any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up against. That was difficult for us because we had a lot of fresh, new, exciting ideas that we were trying to get out and nothing new really worked.
[…]»
Again you can blame the sexism, the racism, the homophobia, but the simple truth is: the concept and quality of the product are the thing able to attire a costumers, not some gender/racial or whatever quotas. A male player can play the Sisters of Battle or the Sisters of Silence (even if they are all female armies) and a female player can play the Space Marines (even if they are all male armies), if they like them, but you will never be able to sell the space marines to a female player who doesn't like them, putting in them some female SM; for example I have knew only two W40k female players, an of them played the Tyranids, the other one the Orks and both of them hated the Sisters of Battles.
the_scotsman wrote: […] 2) market studies across multiple industries have shown that people who view a product as 'for them' are more likely to purchase that product […]
Not really true, in fact (like I have already written) the US comic industry had to face the bitter truth: more female (or black or gay or whatever) characters don't mean more sales; like the Marvel executive David Gabriel stated in this interview: https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/37152/marvels-david-gabriel-2016-market-shift «[…] I don't know if that's a question for me. I think that's a better question for retailers who are seeing all publishers. What we heard was that people didn't want any more diversity. They didn't want female characters out there. That's what we heard, whether we believe that or not. I don't know that that's really true, but that's what we saw in sales. We saw the sales of any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up against. That was difficult for us because we had a lot of fresh, new, exciting ideas that we were trying to get out and nothing new really worked. […]»
Again you can blame the sexism, the racism, the homophobia, but the simple truth is: the concept and quality of the product are the thing able to attire a costumers, not some gender/racial or whatever quotas. A male player can play the Sisters of Battle or the Sisters of Silence (even if they are all female armies) and a female player can play the Space Marines (even if they are all male armies), if they like them, but you will never be able to sell the space marines to a female player who doesn't like them, putting in them some female SM; for example I have knew only two W40k female players, an of them played the Tyranids, the other one the Orks and both of them hated the Sisters of Battles.
Definitely, and you can see the contrast in approach between the US comics industry and the manga industry in Japan. I think Demon Slayer sold more copies by itself than the entire US comic industry combined. While the US comics industry attempts to pander to agendas and political narratives, most manga gives what people actually want; engaging, complete stories and compelling characters/premises.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/08 16:05:38
the_scotsman wrote: […]
2) market studies across multiple industries have shown that people who view a product as 'for them' are more likely to purchase that product
[…]
Not really true, in fact (like I have already written) the US comic industry had to face the bitter truth: more female (or black or gay or whatever) characters don't mean more sales; like the Marvel executive David Gabriel stated in this interview: https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/37152/marvels-david-gabriel-2016-market-shift «[…]
I don't know if that's a question for me. I think that's a better question for retailers who are seeing all publishers. What we heard was that people didn't want any more diversity. They didn't want female characters out there. That's what we heard, whether we believe that or not. I don't know that that's really true, but that's what we saw in sales.
We saw the sales of any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up against. That was difficult for us because we had a lot of fresh, new, exciting ideas that we were trying to get out and nothing new really worked.
[…]»
Again you can blame the sexism, the racism, the homophobia, but the simple truth is: the concept and quality of the product are the thing able to attire a costumers, not some gender/racial or whatever quotas. A male player can play the Sisters of Battle or the Sisters of Silence (even if they are all female armies) and a female player can play the Space Marines (even if they are all male armies), if they like them, but you will never be able to sell the space marines to a female player who doesn't like them, putting in them some female SM; for example I have knew only two W40k female players, an of them played the Tyranids, the other one the Orks and both of them hated the Sisters of Battles.
Cancel culture from people who feel that they've been betrayed by an industry can absolutely cut into profits, as it did for the comic book industry in 2017.
Specifically in 2017.
Strangely, that was followed by several years of steady growth since then.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
That interview is from 2017. We're in 2021. The characters introduced in 2016 have solidified their place in comics and if we're directly talking about character representation, films like Spider-Verse, Wonder Woman, Black Panther, and Captain Marvel are some of the most successful movies of the last decade. Black Panther especially was noted as one of the most important movies ever made by Marvel and it rightfully received its accolades.
I'd also like to point out something in the very article you reference:
Spoiler:
"Discussed candidly by some of the retailers at the summit, we heard that some were not happy with the false abandonment of the core Marvel heroes and, contrary to what some said about characters “not working,” the sticking factor and popularity for a majority of these new titles and characters like Squirrel Girl, Ms. Marvel, The Mighty Thor, Spider-Gwen, Miles Morales, and Moon Girl, continue to prove that our fans and retailers ARE excited about these new heroes. And let me be clear, our new heroes are not going anywhere! We are proud and excited to keep introducing unique characters that reflect new voices and new experiences into the Marvel Universe and pair them with our iconic heroes.
"We have also been hearing from stores that welcome and champion our new characters and titles and want more! They've invigorated their own customer base and helped them grow their stores because of it. So we're getting both sides of the story and the only upcoming change we're making is to ensure we don't lose focus of our core heroes."
Hm, almost like if you give ideas time to grow and solidify they draw more people in, especially those who have previously been under-represented in media.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/08 16:20:12
the_scotsman wrote: […]
2) market studies across multiple industries have shown that people who view a product as 'for them' are more likely to purchase that product
[…]
Not really true, in fact (like I have already written) the US comic industry had to face the bitter truth: more female (or black or gay or whatever) characters don't mean more sales; like the Marvel executive David Gabriel stated in this interview: https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/37152/marvels-david-gabriel-2016-market-shift «[…]
I don't know if that's a question for me. I think that's a better question for retailers who are seeing all publishers. What we heard was that people didn't want any more diversity. They didn't want female characters out there. That's what we heard, whether we believe that or not. I don't know that that's really true, but that's what we saw in sales.
We saw the sales of any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up against. That was difficult for us because we had a lot of fresh, new, exciting ideas that we were trying to get out and nothing new really worked.
[…]»
Again you can blame the sexism, the racism, the homophobia, but the simple truth is: the concept and quality of the product are the thing able to attire a costumers, not some gender/racial or whatever quotas. A male player can play the Sisters of Battle or the Sisters of Silence (even if they are all female armies) and a female player can play the Space Marines (even if they are all male armies), if they like them, but you will never be able to sell the space marines to a female player who doesn't like them, putting in them some female SM; for example I have knew only two W40k female players, an of them played the Tyranids, the other one the Orks and both of them hated the Sisters of Battles.
Definitely, and you can see the contrast in approach between the US comics industry and the manga industry in Japan. I think Demon Slayer sold more copies by itself than the entire US comic industry combined. While the US comics industry attempts to pander to agendas and political narratives, most manga gives what people actually want; engaging, complete stories and compelling characters/premises.
Certainly it couldnt be that both are simply capitalist enterprises with primary markets that have vastly different levels of diversity.
But boy howdy if you are of the opinion that manga and anime doesn't do any "pandering" to the preferred demographic of consumer theyre looking to target.....I dunno maybe you've never read or watched any? like ever?
Just because something panders to a demographic that you happen to be in, doesn't mean it isn't pandering.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Cronch wrote: Mate, you're not a heretic, you're the dogmatic.
It is just so amazing how people defending the status quo love to paint themselves as dangerous outcasts, villified and hunted down by the forces of opression that suggest maybe things could change just a little, please.
It just feels so nice to be opressed for your beliefs, martyred on the altar of Keeping Things The Same.
No dogma. Just no perception of moral failing or outrage if some things don't happen to change nor any dogma that they must.
I don't have a problem if GW wants to make female space marines. I merely disagree that it is necessary, or a moral failing if they do not, or a moral failing if someone doesn't deem it necessary. This seems impossible for the dogmatic to understand, represent respectfully/truthfully, or tolerate.
I don't have a problem if GW wants to make female space marines. I merely disagree that it is necessary, or a moral failing if they do not, or a moral failing if someone doesn't deem it necessary. This seems impossible for the dogmatic to understand, represent respectfully/truthfully, or tolerate.
I make these words my own, because I totally agree with them.
I don't have a problem if GW wants to make female space marines. I merely disagree that it is necessary, or a moral failing if they do not, or a moral failing if someone doesn't deem it necessary. This seems impossible for the dogmatic to understand, represent respectfully/truthfully, or tolerate.
I make these words my own, because I totally agree with them.
^Likewise.
You can literally find posts of mine from a few years ago suggesting that SM be integrated.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/08 16:45:48
boy, for a group of folks that apparently has absolutely zero skin in this particular game, you sure do seem dedicated to providing what I guess is just sort of a neutral, devil's advocate opposition for going on thirty pages
In particular I'm impressed with average dude's commitment to typing up multiparagraph purple prose monologues that, regardless of what tone you start out imagining them, gradually morphs into someone doing a The Joker impression midway through in support of your very cool position of disaffected neutrality.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/08 16:48:39
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Insectum7 wrote: ^"Edit: and BTW, if you want to get biologically savvy, all Space Marine are dead. Their ribs are fused together and they can't breathe. Happy?"
*raises hand* How does a turtle breathe?
“The turtle body plan differs markedly from that of other vertebrates and serves as a model system for studying structural and developmental evolution. Incorporation of the ribs into the turtle shell negates the costal movements that effect lung ventilation in other air-breathing amniotes. Instead, turtles have a unique abdominal-muscle-based ventilatory apparatus whose evolutionary origins have remained mysterious. Here we show through broadly comparative anatomical and histological analyses that an early member of the turtle stem lineage has several turtle-specific ventilation characters: rigid ribcage, inferred loss of intercostal muscles and osteological correlates of the primary expiratory muscle. Our results suggest that the ventilation mechanism of turtles evolved through a division of labour between the ribs and muscles of the trunk in which the abdominal muscles took on the primary ventilatory function, whereas the broadened ribs became the primary means of stabilizing the trunk. These changes occurred approximately 50 million years before the evolution of the fully ossified shell.”
See actual science.
Cybtroll wrote: Yeah... the snarky (what snark?) comment to feel smart: so, do Marine retreat within their massive chests when in danger? Have marine lot of empty spaces in their chest? Do they collapse like the Transformer?
Because turtles are essentially empty: when they retreat in their shells they do exactly the same sound of a punctured tire. Marine have human anatomy and additional organs: as described "in the lore", they can't breathe. So, I'd already the lore is so important that we take it on face value, the lot is incoherent and inconsistent so it's worthless to justify anything.
So to be clear, there are ways that a creature with a fused rib-cage can breathe though. It's not impossible.
Imo there are two ways to take background that looks goofy on the face of it (fused ribcages being an example). One is to say "That's preposterous!" and forget about it because "pew, pew, pew fun!". Another way is to investigate it and look at ways to "solve" it using the tools existing within the problem space. The latter tends to give more interesting possibilities, and from a writing perspective, flesh out the world in a more engaging way.
Maybe they do have extra space in their bodies to facilitate the ribcage. Space Marines also have an entire extra lung. Maybe they have a three-phase breathing process that both helps solve the problem of the fused ribcage in addition to aiding with their particular bonus respiratory abilities.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: boy, for a group of folks that apparently has absolutely zero skin in this particular game, you sure do seem dedicated to providing what I guess is just sort of a neutral, devil's advocate opposition for going on thirty pages.
I'm not willing to say that a fictional all male faction is automatically abhorrent because of 'the feels'. But that appears to be a major theme.
I also think the 'self identify' argument is a poor one, since many people are quite happy to play Tyranids, etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/08 17:17:03
the_scotsman wrote: […] 2) market studies across multiple industries have shown that people who view a product as 'for them' are more likely to purchase that product […]
Not really true, in fact (like I have already written) the US comic industry had to face the bitter truth: more female (or black or gay or whatever) characters don't mean more sales; like the Marvel executive David Gabriel stated in this interview: https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/37152/marvels-david-gabriel-2016-market-shift «[…] I don't know if that's a question for me. I think that's a better question for retailers who are seeing all publishers. What we heard was that people didn't want any more diversity. They didn't want female characters out there. That's what we heard, whether we believe that or not. I don't know that that's really true, but that's what we saw in sales. We saw the sales of any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up against. That was difficult for us because we had a lot of fresh, new, exciting ideas that we were trying to get out and nothing new really worked. […]»
Again you can blame the sexism, the racism, the homophobia, but the simple truth is: the concept and quality of the product are the thing able to attire a costumers, not some gender/racial or whatever quotas. A male player can play the Sisters of Battle or the Sisters of Silence (even if they are all female armies) and a female player can play the Space Marines (even if they are all male armies), if they like them, but you will never be able to sell the space marines to a female player who doesn't like them, putting in them some female SM; for example I have knew only two W40k female players, an of them played the Tyranids, the other one the Orks and both of them hated the Sisters of Battles.
Definitely, and you can see the contrast in approach between the US comics industry and the manga industry in Japan. I think Demon Slayer sold more copies by itself than the entire US comic industry combined. While the US comics industry attempts to pander to agendas and political narratives, most manga gives what people actually want; engaging, complete stories and compelling characters/premises.
Certainly it couldnt be that both are simply capitalist enterprises with primary markets that have vastly different levels of diversity.
But boy howdy if you are of the opinion that manga and anime doesn't do any "pandering" to the preferred demographic of consumer theyre looking to target.....I dunno maybe you've never read or watched any? like ever?
Just because something panders to a demographic that you happen to be in, doesn't mean it isn't pandering.
I think you misunderstand me, manga/anime 100% pander to people, that's precisely why they're so successful. The key difference is that they pander to things and people who actually will buy their product, which in the case of stuff like Demon Slayer, turns out that a good shonen story with well developed characters and story can hit big. Then you also have the more sketchy side with ecchi/hentai stuff that can sell like hot cakes as well, but I mean porn sells unfortunately in and out of any medium. Keep in mind that this all occurring while manga is being pirated way more than U.S. comics, but they still make the sales anyways. The U.S. comics industry is doing so badly precisely because it's trying to market themselves to a crowd that doesn't actually buy comic books and usually they write horrendous stories and create terrible art in the process. I mean, look at this panel, this is just one example of how cringe some of their stuff is:
Spoiler:
I'm pretty sure that giving Jane Foster a free win because she's a girl isn't exactly a standing ovation of her abilities as a new Thor, and the unsubtle messaging is pretty much standard across a lot of the current titles at the moment. The Marvel/DC comic side of things are only staying afloat due to the impact of the movie scene, unlike how cutthroat the manga/anime market where series get axed out of nowhere all the time, whereas Marvel/DC pretty much operate their comics arm at a loss to push whatever political narrative they're aiming at.
I don't have a problem if GW wants to make female space marines. I merely disagree that it is necessary, or a moral failing if they do not, or a moral failing if someone doesn't deem it necessary. This seems impossible for the dogmatic to understand, represent respectfully/truthfully, or tolerate.
I make these words my own, because I totally agree with them.
Yeah, pretty much sums up my stance as well.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/08 17:22:29
So to be clear, there are ways that a creature with a fused rib-cage can breathe though. It's not impossible.
Yes. But it'd be easier to design a super-turtle warrior (some sort of ninja maybe?) than to make a human work with fused ribs. Cheaper too probably. Humans make lousy weapons.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If people would stop using words like "Inferior" or "weaker". You guys are claiming the high ground of a hill made of misogyny.
So, I'm not making those claims (it is a fictional universe and is free to make up it's own rules in either direction, after all.)
But is the acknowledgement of, uhh "statistical inequalities of performance levels between the sexes in competitive sports" mysogynistic? I just want to know where we stand on this.
So to be clear, there are ways that a creature with a fused rib-cage can breathe though. It's not impossible.
Yes. But it'd be easier to design a super-turtle warrior (some sort of ninja maybe?) than to make a human work with fused ribs. Cheaper too probably. Humans make lousy weapons.
Well, no one said Marines were cheap and easy to make.
I agree that humans make lousy weapons too. It's rather integral to the 40K setting, imo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/08 17:23:18
And yet another way is to understand that it is OK to acknowledge the limitations of the original creator of a particular detail, understand that most works of fiction contain details that the person writing them at the time didn't fully understand, and simply enjoy them, without needing to continuously justify and rationalize every decision that was previously made simply because it was made at some point in the past.
Marines have fused ribcages because someone who did not understand the function of human ribs saw the fact that it's got holes in as a design flaw, and thought 'cwoooor and they'll be so tough they'll have a SOLID PLATE of ribs, can't stab here loser, it's a big metal plate!'
If the most interesting thing you can bring to the table narratively is a quasi-compelling rationalization of a design decision that was never made rationally in the first place, that's going to limit the quality of the narrative you can present to just cool minor details.
....which is something the remake/reboot/retread/re-examine obsessed modern media landscape continuously bonks its collective head into time and time and time again.
If you don't have anything interesting to say, I don't particularly care how 'han solo' got the name 'solo', or what store he bought his striped space pants at, or how he actually meant that he found a SHORTCUT through a dimensional wormhole when he said 'twelve parsecs' so the original writer DIDN'T actually mistake a unit of distance for a unit of time, actually everything the original writer did and said was infallible and you were just too short sighted to understand!
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Cronch wrote: Mate, you're not a heretic, you're the dogmatic.
It is just so amazing how people defending the status quo love to paint themselves as dangerous outcasts, villified and hunted down by the forces of opression that suggest maybe things could change just a little, please.
It just feels so nice to be opressed for your beliefs, martyred on the altar of Keeping Things The Same.
No dogma. Just no perception of moral failing or outrage if some things don't happen to change nor any dogma that they must.
I don't have a problem if GW wants to make female space marines. I merely disagree that it is necessary, or a moral failing if they do not, or a moral failing if someone doesn't deem it necessary. This seems impossible for the dogmatic to understand, represent respectfully/truthfully, or tolerate.
If you don't have a problem, why the hell are you here voicing that it's the evil Femperialists attacking Manlyrines?
Imperial Human Factions and their Status of integration in the lore
Imperial Guard - integrated
Adeptus Mechanicus - integrated
Adeptus Arbites - integrated
Knight Households - integrated
Titan Legions - integrated
Imperial Navy - integrated
Officio Assassinorum - integrated
Inquisition - integrated
Sisters of Battle - all female (auxilliaries/supporting assets may be male)
Space Marines - all male (auxilliaries/supporting assets may be female)
Adeptus Custodes - all male? (imo should be integrated, female Custodes would be great)
Sisters of Silence - all female
^Imo this should be acceptable, lore wise
(model representation is currently unacceptable, imo, and there's just waaay too much focus on Space Marines)
Yeah, they're all integrated, and that's great. But:
- None of these come anywhere near the marketing power of Space Marines
- Why are Space Marines also not integrated in the first place? If it's the whole "warrior monk/fraternity" thing you're after, Custodes fit that better. Why are you okay changing the lore about the Custodes, the faction that might actually fit that aesthetic and design better, than Space Marines, the faction defined by their customisation and player freedom?
Why is women Space Marines the point of contention here?
Ok so you're actually OK with an all-male faction. That's important to know.
I'd argue that Custodes are better designed from an inclusion standpoint for two reasons:
1: They are individually made, rather than 'factory/formula printed' the way that Space Marines are.
2: If Custodes were all male, that keeps us in the paradigm of "Men make the best/elitest" soldiers.
I genuinely think that the optics would be better and more interesting if the Space Marines stayed all male, but the absolute-top-tier-golden-Emperors-finest-warriors were both men and women.
The rest of your responses can more or less be reduced to the fact that Space Marines are marketed the most, and I feel that can be changed (and should be changed). Space Marines get an entirely unwarranted amount of focus compared to their actual numbers in the lore, and it's also reflected in the game where Space Marines are stupidly common opponents.
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the_scotsman wrote: And yet another way is to understand that it is OK to acknowledge the limitations of the original creator of a particular detail, understand that most works of fiction contain details that the person writing them at the time didn't fully understand, and simply enjoy them, without needing to continuously justify and rationalize every decision that was previously made simply because it was made at some point in the past.
Marines have fused ribcages because someone who did not understand the function of human ribs saw the fact that it's got holes in as a design flaw, and thought 'cwoooor and they'll be so tough they'll have a SOLID PLATE of ribs, can't stab here loser, it's a big metal plate!'
If the most interesting thing you can bring to the table narratively is a quasi-compelling rationalization of a design decision that was never made rationally in the first place, that's going to limit the quality of the narrative you can present to just cool minor details.
That's making a lot of presupposing assumptions about the authors knowledge and intent, I think. The author could have literally been thinking about turtles (esp. since it was the 80's). I prefer a different way of engaging with the lore, I suppose. Is it wrong for me to do so?
Insectum7 wrote: I prefer a different way of engaging with the lore, I suppose. Is it wrong for me to do so?
Are you personally morally defective for wanting to posthoc justify previous lore decisions? No. Posthoc rationalization is a fundamentally human trait baked in to the chemical reward centers of our brain. We like to learn, and we like to prove that we have remembered something or connected two concepts.
Is it wrong from a factual standpoint? eh. I tend to default to occam's razor when it comes to works of fiction and fictional worlds, because I'm generally less interested in minutia as I am in what emotion or meaning or impression an artist was trying to convey, and the simplest explanation for a lot of details is just that they're intended as small greebles to help convey a feeling rather than as perfectly internally consistent fully thought out concepts.
Personally, if I was to accuse some kind of ideology of infiltrating and inveigling and changing all the classic works, it would be the sinister forces of the posthoc rationalizers getting their paws all over every story based on emotion, literary tropes and satirical references and jamming it into a "perfectly internally consistent, self-contained rational world" shaped hole.
So I'd say "yes, you're wrong" but my meaning wouldn't be "you are morally inferior to me" or "the way you are doing things is factually incorrect" but rather "I disagree that this way of engaging with this kind of story is a net positive rather than a net detraction of the qualities that originally made the story good."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/08 18:01:37
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
^Well I suppose I disagree on the basis that the 40K universe isn't so much a story as it is a setting to sandbox around in. So rather than having the value placed primarily in narratives, the value is more in the world itself, and so exploring the ways in which the world works or doesn't upon it's own logic holds a higher value.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Well I suppose I disagree on the basis that the 40K universe isn't so much a story as it is a setting to sandbox around in. So rather than having the value placed primarily in narratives, the value is more in the world itself, and so exploring the ways in which the world works or doesn't upon it's own logic holds a higher value.
it is. When I say narratives, I mean 'what the details in the setting are intended to MEAN' rather than their literal, in-universe justification.
the literal, in-universe reason that there are separate orders of power-armored female and male soldiers within the imperium is the decree passive and the fact that the process of creating a space marine and also a custode precludes female candidates.
The narrative, trope-based reason that there are separate orders of power-armored female and male soldiers is because warhammer 40,000 was originally created as a satirical critique of backwards gender roles, portraying the 'perfect utopia' of the traditionalist worldview where nobody ever questions anything, everyone perfectly adheres to traditional hierarchies, and powerful men are elevated to posthuman, gene-forged perfection.....and hey, look at that, it's the worst, most miserable, most brutal, most senseless, failing society imaginable.
There being a hilariously evident glass ceiling for women where they can't just not become space marines, but must instead be forced into the role of the hyper-religious self-sacrificing joan of arc armored maiden role in service of creepy corpulent ecclesiarchal monks makes perfect sense narratively...with the framework of 40k as a work of satire assumed.
....but here's the thing, though - 40k's satirical roots have long since been abandoned. People who are fans of the imperium - particularly the shiny post-human elements of the imperium - really hate any narrative beat that portrays them as anything other than intelligent, infallible, and correct (see the community at large's response to the story where the custode ordered the annihilation of a newly minted primaris chapter after their firstborn progenitors turned renegade)
Less and less and less within the wider narrative is the imperium portrayed as harming itself through its brutal, repressive practices, and more and more it is portrayed as brutal and regressive because it has no other choice than to be so, and anything you'd think would present a better alternative must be post-hoc justified in order to make the approach taken by the imperium the only possible choice.
That's OK, and it is the tragectory that the story has been on for a long time, and people who enjoy the setting having internal logical consistency are not wrong for wanting that, or enjoying that, or for wanting to view the imperium as a protagonistic faction rather than something your'e supposed to only ever always view as monstrous. It's a perfectly reasonable and fine impulse for everyone to want to view their dudes as 'the good guys (or at least, the guys who have reasons for what theyre doing) doing their best in an evil setting'.
...but it does mean that narratively the fact that women are denied entry into the two uppermost echelons of the elite of humanity more and more awkward, as the emperor is more and more portrayed as a perfect collossal big brain 5d chess ubermench who only failed because the universe was soooo unfair rather than him being used merely as yet another symbol of the imperium's stupidity and backwards-ness (expending more and more and more souls daily simply to sustain the decaying corpse that hasn't given them any guidance for 10,000 years.)
What started as 'look at this stupid way this stupid society wastes their best female soldiers' slowly becomes hints of 'this is is the only way this society COULD make use of their best female soldiers' with each posthoc generalization, which opens the door to 'this is the way this society SHOULD have allocated their best female soldiers.'
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Cronch wrote: Mate, you're not a heretic, you're the dogmatic.
It is just so amazing how people defending the status quo love to paint themselves as dangerous outcasts, villified and hunted down by the forces of opression that suggest maybe things could change just a little, please.
It just feels so nice to be opressed for your beliefs, martyred on the altar of Keeping Things The Same.
No dogma. Just no perception of moral failing or outrage if some things don't happen to change nor any dogma that they must.
I don't have a problem if GW wants to make female space marines. I merely disagree that it is necessary, or a moral failing if they do not, or a moral failing if someone doesn't deem it necessary. This seems impossible for the dogmatic to understand, represent respectfully/truthfully, or tolerate.
If you don't have a problem, why the hell are you here voicing that it's the evil Femperialists attacking Manlyrines?
That's what had been most informative here. I'm not antagonistic to people wanting female marines. I do see that there is a major problem here on some other factors.
Largely it revolves around the treatment of anyone who expresses an opinion that GW modifying their line isn't necessary, or that they are not in favor of a change. It isn't"t simply a disagreement or debate about merits, indeed, the general pattern is that a number of people do not appear capable of absorbing, considering, or tolerating other perspectives. I would argue your question is a great example of this. People develop fictional models of who commenters are and what their perspectives are. Evil character, ideals and such that are not part of what a commenter argues or suggests are substituted for discussion and understanding. I don't think that is good or helpful to dakka, 40k, or human civilization.
This all seems to coalesce around themes of a political world view that defines the existence of male space marines as a faction as something abhorrent, and proceeds to the conclusion that the only path of justice and righteousness is female space marines, and any person who might not agree is misconstrued and demonized. It's that latter part I'd like to draw attention to.
We should be able to have different camps and ideas about the ins and outs of female marines without it becoming a dehumanizing exercise against anyone who doesn't think GW must make female space marines.
I'm not sure how much of the problem comes from being unwilling or unable to read understand and empathize with other voices, but the function is still the same in terms of abuse, and I think it would be nice if we were more able to agree to disagree on some perspectives rather than demonize disagreement.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/08 22:58:00
As for the science of marines having to be men because men are better at soldiering and growing muscle. Well that all falls down on two main points. One, the process of transformation into a marine starts before puberty, so hormone levels and muscle mass etc are irrelevant. It hasn’t started yet. At that age the levels are roughly the same, the strengths and muscle mass are the same. All you need to keep them level is some testosterone and some growth hormone. Not a big expenditure of resources when you think about what goes into making a marine. (To get the gene seed for a new chapter you need a thousand slaves to produce it who are sustained to adulthood and then destroyed, held in suspended animation). And two, even using flawed GW futuristic pseudo science, once a marine is developing all there hormonal needs are either artificially introduced or provided by implanted glands. If you read the actual process, testosterone or male hormones are not mentioned once.
So any logic based on this assumption is flawed and false.
Does it seem like pseudoscience to you to envision that to grow humans to be 7 feet tall that growth hormone would be required? That for such aggression and musculature testosterone would be required? I mean, you could always suggest Magic and that the warp is used to mafic space marines I supposed. At any rate, sticking to a more science fiction grounding, I think it's important you mention the process starts before puberty. We should notice that women who want to transition to being men are generally encouraged to take puberty blockers and begin testosterone treatment. The results are suppression if female traits and rise of masculine traits. Perhaps the reason you don't see female space marines is that the process is effective at allowing young women to transition as trans men, and that is why are all called brother. There's really nothing inherently flawed or inherently false about extending our understanding from science into science fiction to conceive of what might be happening realistically. At least nothing more so than asserting magic.
If you want to use real science to justify sci-fi science then try and understand real science a little bit first. And dressing up the fact that girls are banned in the spacemarine club as a fraternity then you are just using that term to hide misogyny. Show me one bit a text where the marines being all male is integral to the story. Where it actually matters. One. Challenge you. One story where it being an all male gang actually matters.
This is an example of where this thread gets abusive. It's hyperbolic and not in spirit with the decorum we are supposed to show on dakka dakka. I think we need to recognize the political component that keeps working it way into the discussion. Its when the discussion starts moving beyond the discussion of the ups/downs and ins/outs of female space marines into assertions of wickedness or "woman hating" as you out it. In the political sphere, we can recognize that there's a revolutionary movement that holds amongst it's core tenets that revolution must be brought to perceived strongholds of power, and within that school of thought any "boys club" as you put it is deemed an evil oppressive structure that must be dismantled. I think I am able to affirm based on the comments that this is the primary motivation for a lot of posters. Now though that's political at its source it isn't so much having that opinion openly is a problem, it's when you want to bring the forms of Struggle Session rhetoric and demonization of people who don't see the revolutionary program as necessary that it's really becoming toxic. When one begins to assert negative character and aspersions on people who don't share your value, shouldn't that be considered over the line on dakka?
For those who aren't part of the identity political revolutionary movement, it isn't apparent that GW must dismantle or rewrite astartes simply because it happens to be a popular male faction. It does not follow that it is an evil heresy that must be purged, and it seems queer that anyone who does not share the identity politics perspective has to be misconstrued, mocked, demonized, and so on. I recognize these are tactics commended in revolutionary identity politics "war on patriarchy" etc. But while a revolutionary may feel necessary to "engage on all fronts" in their culture war, couldn't dakka be a place where like Christmas trenches in wwI, we can stop demonizing each other for a bit, and talk without turning everything into an idealistic crusade where the heretic must be purged?
Or perhaps, like the imperium, it is simply not acceptable for anyone to have ideas beyond the imperial truth, and only zealous denouncement of the heretic is the acceptable path?
I think it's a bit toxic, but perhaps its an unavoidably toxic world now. But at least do not be mystified when the zealous missionary declares their imperial truth, and people say "is this really necessary?" and likewise, when the revolutionary missionary breaks out the flamer, this should not be a surprise either. I just wish more people would recognize the toxicity of this path and try to resist the call and temptation to bring the abusive elements of the revolution here at the very least.
You speak of aspersions on people in the same breath as making massive assumptions about people motives and politics. Baffling hypocrisy.
The pseudo science thing has been answered elsewhere but yes. It all sounds like absolute rubbish mate. The whole lot. There is no actual workable science the creation of spacemarines. None at all. It’s all mumbo jumbo and sciency sounding words that mean nothing really.
You insist on it being a harmless fraternity that you are very neutral about but when I ask you give an example where the “fraternity” actually has any real bearing or relevance to the story you use mock indignation and hurt to avoid the question.
So I will try again. I assume you are not a sexist, a bigot or a misogynist. I imagine you are actually a reasonable and pleasant person. As such please give an example where the idea of “fraternity” and marines male exclusivity is even relevant to the story or narrative or arc?
