CA and MFM 2021 up for pre-order next weekend. What's needed and what will we get?

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**C4790M**

Not Online!!! wrote:
oh look the cut content supplement got another validation for existing....
Jokes aside, but the bloating for monetary sake is annoying and doesn't help the release schedule. as in the cut content first day DLC, not the dexes

But neither does the fact that GW didn't get the show on during the pandemic, kinda confused that they had this much logisitcal problems, considering other companies had to fight with the same problems yet still managed.

Considering GW hasn’t been able to open their model factory for over half the last year due to the series of uk lockdowns, it’s surprising we aren’t further behind...

**Gene St. Ealer**

C4790M wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
oh look the cut content supplement got another validation for existing....
Jokes aside, but the bloating for monetary sake is annoying and doesn't help the release schedule. as in the cut content first day DLC, not the dexes

But neither does the fact that GW didn't get the show on during the pandemic, kinda confused that they had this much logisitcal problems, considering other companies had to fight with the same problems yet still managed.

Considering GW hasn’t been able to open their model factory for over half the last year due to the series of uk lockdowns, it’s surprising we aren’t further behind...

This is exaggeration, right? I thought they were closed 3 months. When was it over half a year?

ETA: Not that 3 months is insignificant and it makes sense that they'd have delays, but still.

**Karol**

I have been re reading the article, and I don't understand one thing. If GK and 1ksons were ment to already be out. Then why aren't the next two books them, but instead admecha, orks and SoB?

**Audustum**

Karol wrote:
I have been re reading the article, and I don't understand one thing. If GK and 1ksons were ment to already be out. Then why aren't the next two books them, but instead admecha, orks and SoB?

They were supposed to do 2 per month. Around Dec/Jan they said they could only do 1 due to COVID. So likely AdMech + Druks then Orks + Sisters and we would've had 4-6 more Codices after that before reaching present point.

**Lord Zarkov**

Karol wrote:
I have been re reading the article, and I don't understand one thing. If GK and 1ksons were ment to already be out. Then why aren't the next two books them, but instead admecha, orks and SoB?

Because they’re about 3-4 months behind and they originally planned to release 2 books a month. All 5 of the books you listed should have been out by now.

**Karol**

Makes sense.Thanks for explaining.

Although it is rather funny to get points hike to a codex that has not been out yet

**Daedalus81**

yukishiro1 wrote:
You can also tell from the GK/TS points values that they aren't doing anything about multi-meltas.

Multi-meltas are so old hat.

**techsoldaten**

Karol wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Landraiders will now be 265 base. Sorta meh, but happy they aren't going over the top if these are the "biggest" drops.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/05/27/5-of-the-biggest-points-drops-from-chapter-approved-2021/

The better new is TS & GK next and a new HQ for TS! Woot woot!

My lack of smarts hits me hard again. I see GW saying that a LR at 265pts is great, and I can't imagine why someone wouldn't just take an extra squads or more bodies in their squads. Specially when being inside one makes the unit do absolutly nothing for 1-2 turns, which is big for armies that can't have units do nothing.

But the good thing about it all is that GW tells me, a GK player in advance, that the points costs for my army are wrong in the entire book. Which probably means the books should have come out last year, and the TS/GK book should be out now. Yay for saving money, because of covid delays.

Plus I wonder which MK of power armour are those GK strikes wearing, because this isn't the armour regular GK strikes have now

@Karol GW only gives high quality advice for improving each player's enjoyment of the game.

The fact they also sell you the model has no bearing on what GW tells you.

Learn to love the game and stop hating.

**Gadzilla666**

Daedalus81 wrote:Landraiders will now be 265 base. Sorta meh, but happy they aren't going over the top if these are the "biggest" drops.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/05/27/5-of-the-biggest-points-drops-from-chapter-approved-2021/

The better new is TS & GK next and a new HQ for TS! Woot woot!

Hopefully the price drop on Land Raiders and Storm Speeders is a sign that a lot of vehicles will be getting a price cut. Most vehicles are currently overpriced. I'll definitely be cranky if all Land Raiders don't get a cut. It'll be interesting to compare the prices in the MFM for 1ksons and GK with their upcoming codexes and the ones without them. Give us an idea of how much better everything will be getting. Or worse.

yukishiro1 wrote:You can also tell from the GK/TS points values that they aren't doing anything about multi-meltas.

No, you can tell they aren't doing anything to multi-meltas on vehicles. Those aren't a problem. I don't think anyone is complaining about multi-meltas on dreadnoughts or as pintle mounted weapons on Land Raiders.

**Spoletta**

Multimeltas on infantry aren't changing either. Almost no points changed.

**Gadzilla666**

Spoletta wrote:
Multimeltas on infantry aren't changing either. Almost no points changed.

Ok, what did change?

**Spoletta**

Mostly marine changes.

A few nerfs to marines here and there, but very small things. Biggest nerf is the chief apoth to 35.

Huge buff to eliminators.

Some buffs to the heavy vehicles.

**Karol**

techsoldaten wrote:

@Karol GW only gives high quality advice for improving each player's enjoyment of the game.

The fact they also sell you the model has no bearing on what GW tells you.

Learn to love the game and stop hating.

I ain't disliking GW, because unless it is obvious I can't make up army tactics or builds on my own. I just can't imagine how a 265pts tanks is suppose to work, specially as without the new codex, it wouldn't have any of the rules updates the regular marine land raiders have. And I still have the memory of 8th ed first IA book in my mind, where in the right up to it GW wrote that multiple units, including termintors and paladins were suppose to become good for GK, but they didn't. And in case of termintors they never did, and paladins became very good under ITC terrain rules after the PA book for GK droped.

Not understanding something doesn't equal to hate. I don't get the majority of things that happen in other countries, but I don't hate most of them. And those that I do, I understand very well.

**Jidmah**

Didn't the GK also get 2 damage on their heavy bolters? What other rules do "regular marine land raiders" have?

**Karol**

Regular range flamers for example.

**Jidmah**

Karol wrote:
Regular range flamers for example.

You might want to have a look at your FAQ. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

**Rihgu**

Regular marine Land Raiders have Smokescreen has a stratagem, and Power of the Machine Spirit as a stratagem.

**the_scotsman**

Karol wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Landraiders will now be 265 base. Sorta meh, but happy they aren't going over the top if these are the "biggest" drops.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/05/27/5-of-the-biggest-points-drops-from-chapter-approved-2021/

The better new is TS & GK next and a new HQ for TS! Woot woot!

My lack of smarts hits me hard again. I see GW saying that a LR at 265pts is great, and I can't imagine why someone wouldn't just take an extra squads or more bodies in their squads. Specially when being inside one makes the unit do absolutly nothing for 1-2 turns, which is big for armies that can't have units do nothing.

But the good thing about it all is that GW tells me, a GK player in advance, that the points costs for my army are wrong in the entire book. Which probably means the books should have come out last year, and the TS/GK book should be out now. Yay for saving money, because of covid delays.

Plus I wonder which MK of power armour are those GK strikes wearing, because this isn't the armour regular GK strikes have now

I dont know if theyre great, but I take a regular lascannon/hb land raider in my deathwatch pretty commonly in place of something like a lascannon dev squad or other upfront turn 1 firepower. I usually put the squad of longer-range deathwatch vets I have inside it to keep them from being targeted turn 1, and then just hop them out and take a shot at something on my first turn, I don't actually use it as a transport to get units from point A to point B.

**Jidmah**

Rihgu wrote:
Regular marine Land Raiders have Smokescreen has a stratagem, and Power of the Machine Spirit as a stratagem.

They have vengeance of the machine spirit and old smoke launchers instead. And all four of those things contribute nothing to what a landraider is trying to do.

**Rihgu**

What is a land raider trying to do?

**Blackie**

Rihgu wrote:
What is a land raider trying to do?

Transport/shield a unit for a turn, provide saturation for armored stuff and supporting firepower. If you don't need all of those options the LR isn't a great option. I take it everytime with my SW, the Crusade variant as I need anti infantry firepower, a ride/shield for 15 Blood Claws and a cheap character (typically a Wolf Priest or a Battle Leader) and saturation for my other tanks/flyer and TWC.

**Rihgu**

Transport/shield a unit for a turn

So a -1 to hit in response to opponent's shooting sounds helpful

provide saturation for armored stuff

Neither of the stratagems offered for new land raiders help with this, I'll admit.

supporting firepower

Shooting at full brackets despite wounds would help with this.

Okay, I'm confused. I was told that Smokescreen and Power of the Machine Spirit don't help what a land raider is trying to do?

**the_scotsman**

Jidmah wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Regular marine Land Raiders have Smokescreen has a stratagem, and Power of the Machine Spirit as a stratagem.

They have vengeance of the machine spirit and old smoke launchers instead. And all four of those things contribute nothing to what a landraider is trying to do.

....the ability to ignore the vehicle damage chart and the ability to be -1 to hit from shooting for 1cp does nothing to contribute to what a landraider is trying to do?

Man, they sure have been handy for what MY land raider has been trying to do, I must have been using it all wrong. I use those stratagems when my opponent tries to kill my land raider to stop it from firing lascannons and heavy bolters at things, and they help it to not get killed and not get reduced in effectiveness as it loses wounds.

Typically, it's the only big heavy thing present in my army, so my opponent starts by hitting it with any lascannons, missiles, d6 damage weapons and such that he has, and obviously immediately I use the smoke strat. Usually the T8 and the 2+ base save makes it surprisingly tough, so my opponent ends up flinging stuff like supercharged plasma at it to try and take it out or bracket it since theyve already sunk cost into shooting it, which means they arent shooting those things at my marines.

**Jidmah**

Transporting melee troops into combat and providing them with support fire.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rihgu wrote:
Okay, I'm confused. I was told that Smokescreen and Power of the Machine Spirit don't help what a land raider is trying to do?

Have you ever played a landraider?

It goes like this:

You pop smoke, the landraider dies to trivial anti tank fire. The end.

**Rihgu**

I have not played a Codex: Space Marines Land Raider, no.

My Land Raiders still have to sacrifice shooting to get -1 to hit and can't do it reactively.

Also curious as to what "trivial anti tank fire" is.

Like, it takes 5 Multimeltas to on average kill a Land Raider. 7 if you pop smoke. That doesn't feel trivial to me. 15 lascannons... that's half of all the lascannons in my list! Before smoke is popped.

**the_scotsman**

Jidmah wrote:
Transporting melee troops into combat and providing them with support fire.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rihgu wrote:
Okay, I'm confused. I was told that Smokescreen and Power of the Machine Spirit don't help what a land raider is trying to do?

Have you ever played a landraider?

It goes like this:

You pop smoke, the landraider dies to trivial anti tank fire. The end.

6 multi-melta attack bikes in melta range to kill a smoke-popped land raider doesn't seem like particularly trivial antitank firepower to me, particularly given that those bikes are among the most efficient antitank choices in the game atm.

**Daedalus81**

Jidmah wrote:
You pop smoke, the landraider dies to trivial anti tank fire. The end.

I find this to be an exaggeration. If I could pop smoke like marines I'd use mine. It would take 9 DA MM attack bikes to kill it on average - 6 if they were w/i 12". That isn't a trivial amount of AT and considering I can be careful about trades and since they don't usually all deploy on the same area ( if I have multiple threats or more drops ) I have an advantage. Toss on a 5++, drop the price of warpflamers and I'll be happy to shove them in people's faces.

**wuestenfux**

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Nobody in my group bought the GT Mission pack and I'm not even sure if more than half of the people even know it exists. If this CA is only about tournament missions noone will care about it. Updated points? Yeah, well, we get these from Battlescribe one week later if GW can't be bothered to update their pdf. I guess after the crusade books the tournament crowd wants to have something too, but I'm not part of that group.
Honestly, considering all their delays at this point I think they should have scrapped the whole thing and instead put out a codex with their ressources. The tournament players got along with their boring ITC missions for years, I'm sure they would have been okay with a longer lifespan of the first pack, especially since most parts of the World didn't even have a lot of tournaments in the last 1,5 years...

Edit: thinking about it I'd say that stuff would have a good place in a WD, just like the Maelstrom missions. Didn't they even have the points pdf only last months in there only to make that invalid now?

Generally we have one exemplar of a supplementary release in the gaming store.

**Jidmah**

I guess my DG landraiders are more fagile than yours. I wonder why no one is playing those totally awesome invincible gunboats then?

And yes, I was obviously exaggerating. However, if you use the LR to transport anything of worth, it tends be prioritized because it is a large chunk of your army. If you don't, you just pay a lot of points for four lascannons and two heavy bolters.

The best I can hope for it to do is to survive turn 1 severely damaged and then unload terminators or marines somewhere midfield.

**Rihgu**

Jidmah wrote:
I guess my DG landraiders are more fagile than yours then. I wonder why no one is playing those totally awesome invincible gunboats then?

And yes, I was obviously exaggerating. However, if you use the LR to transport anything of worth, it tends be prioritized because it is a large chunk of your army. If you don't, you just pay a lot of points for four lascannons and two heavy bolters.

Nobody is claiming them to be invincible gunboats. In fact, they're only claiming that the stratagem access newer books (DG, SM) have helps support them in their intended roles. Because you initially claimed that they did not.

This is all because Karol pointed out that Codex: Space Marine Land raiders and Codex: Grey Knight Land Raiders are going to cost the same despite the Space Marine one having immediately obvious advantages, so even if being priced at 265 points somehow made them viable or even just reasonable to take rather than a points sink, it still wouldn't be viable or reasonable for GK as they'd be paying the same points for a less effective model.