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I was looking at some lists recently and it struck me that this seemed unbalanced against one another. Without getting into the arguments of "you can't compare 1 unit from 1 faction to another unit from another faction" which of these 2 would you prefer

OPTION 1: Scrapjet 110pts 2D3 Rokkitz at BS5+, a wing missile which hits either on 4s or 6s depending on if you are shooting a vehicle or not and finally 12 Big shoota shots, half of which are at BS4, the other half at BS5. CC it gets D3 mortal wounds on the charge on a 4+ and 4 normal attacks at S8 -2AP 2dmg at WS4+. 10' movement, 9 wounds at T6 4+ save.

OPTION 2: Attack Bikes (2 of them) 110pts 4 Multi-melta shots at BS3+, 8 Bolter shots at BS3+. CC they get 6 S4 attacks at WS3 in the 1st round and 4 attacks every round thereafter. 14' Movement, 6' advance, 8 wounds at T5 with 3+ save split between 2 models so any extra dmg is wasted.

Average dmg against a T7 3+ save vehicle:

Scrapjet: 3.3-3.4dmg shooting. In CC (not charge) its 1.77dmg. Total. About 5 dmg a turn.
Attack Bikes: 6.6dmg shooting (not in half range). In CC (not charge) its 0.29 dmg. Total: About 7 dmg a turn

If the bikes get within 12' of their target those MMs goes from 6.2dmg (by themselves) to 9.77. Conversely, on the charge the Scrapjet averages 1 mortal wound (50% chance to inflict D3 = 1mortal wound a charge). I included DDD into the Scrapjets shooting however I did not include doctrines, super doctrines or anything else for the Attack bikes.

A secondary question would be, if you agree with me that the scrapjet is somewhat inferior, what is the answer? Increase the Scrapjets dmg average by about 100% or do Attack bikes need a somewhat hefty price hike to compensate for the fact that they are dishing out some seriously dangerous fire power while also being faster.

Its pretty obvious from the damage output that they can levy, the Multi-Melta upgrade on attack bikes (and many things) should cost more points.

GW provided two buffs on MMs right on top of each other, and seemingly did not account for one of them (the doubling of shots)

You're forgetting that the scrapjet has a kustom job that lets it fight twice basically, but i agree that Ork buggies are just inferior to SM ones rn .
Biggest fix for any ork buggies to me would just be making them cheaper if any buggy needs a buff. Might just be me reminiscing about old ork buggies, but i firmly believe that buggies should be little 40 point buckets of gak that zoom around the table to just be annoying. I wish i could loot invader atv's lol.

This sounds like someone is making a pool to prove a point in a tactica thread.

 Galas wrote:
This sounds like someone is making a pool to prove a point in a tactica thread.

Nope, was just looking at the White Scars list that won the Maryland GT recently and it got me thinking. Scrapjets are arguably the best buggy orkz have and they (in my opinion) aren't as good as basic Marine Attack bikes which have been around for decades at this point. I personally own 3 scrapjets and would love to own more buggies in general, but they are just so underwhelming on the table that it has started to feel like a waste of time to even bring them...granted I feel that way about most ork shooting at this point (Barring Smasha guns).

And on the subject of Smasha guns, they are arguably the best shooting unit in the Ork army and yet they are still not as good as a single attack bike with MM

I'd take 2 attack bikes with heavy bolter, don't like flyers

multi melta should be about 5 points more expensive.

Honestly the scrapjet is pretty good, and you're comparing it to what some would argue is the best marine unit point for point overall. Although, that does bring to light that everything but multi melta in the marine anti-tank arsenal is pretty trash.

Quasistellar wrote:
multi melta should be about 5 points more expensive.

Honestly the scrapjet is pretty good, and you're comparing it to what some would argue is the best marine unit point for point overall. Although, that does bring to light that everything but multi melta in the marine anti-tank arsenal is pretty trash.

Make it +10 pts, it has better damage and double the shots of a Lascannon for 20/25 pts (depends on Codex) which is ludicrous

 Banzaimash wrote:
I'd take 2 attack bikes with heavy bolter, don't like flyers

Good news! No flyers here.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
multi melta should be about 5 points more expensive.

Honestly the scrapjet is pretty good, and you're comparing it to what some would argue is the best marine unit point for point overall. Although, that does bring to light that everything but multi melta in the marine anti-tank arsenal is pretty trash.

Make it +10 pts, it has better damage and double the shots of a Lascannon for 20/25 pts (depends on Codex) which is ludicrous

Lascannons are garbage. They should be 5 points cheaper. Lascannons -5 and melts +5 should swap them and that better represents their current power. Really though lascannons should get the old neutron laser rule of minimum 3 damage-with that they could maybe keep their current price.

I play Tyranids.

Quasistellar wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
multi melta should be about 5 points more expensive.

Honestly the scrapjet is pretty good, and you're comparing it to what some would argue is the best marine unit point for point overall. Although, that does bring to light that everything but multi melta in the marine anti-tank arsenal is pretty trash.

Make it +10 pts, it has better damage and double the shots of a Lascannon for 20/25 pts (depends on Codex) which is ludicrous

Lascannons are garbage. They should be 5 points cheaper. Lascannons -5 and melts +5 should swap them and that better represents their current power. Really though lascannons should get the old neutron laser rule of minimum 3 damage-with that they could maybe keep their current price.

Lascannons are actually good for their points. Multi meltas should simply approx twice their current cost as they should be a bit more expensive than a twin lascannon. 35pts is the appropriate price for a multi melta I think.

 Blackie wrote:
Lascannons are actually good for their points. Multi meltas should simply approx twice their current cost as they should be a bit more expensive than a twin lascannon. 35pts is the appropriate price for a multi melta I think.

Yeah, lascannons are so "good" any vehicle with multiples of them (like predators and land raiders) are never taken and usually called trash.

As for MM, I like how people have so short memory and attention span to not remember how many MM were taken in 8th edition, when they cost much less than 35 pts. Oh, that's right, zero. Maybe, just maybe, the problem is not with MM but idiotic squat buff no one wanted or asked for, cut the wounds of squat marines and attack bikes to what they were in 8th and suddenly the problem will disappear...

i'm a bit floored here honestly. The thread is basically everyone agreeing the scrapjet is inferior and yet the polling says most people think they are almost equal.

The point is I don't think players are not taking those because they're trash, they're taking it becasue there's something some else that does the same job for cheaper, probably undercosted. In fact typically SM competitive lists don't bring tanks or flyers at all.

Predators and Land raiders aren't taken because heavy infantries can be much better for the anti tank role, for much cheaper, with more staying power and they're also able to score. Land Raiders in particular aren't taken because not many people bring firstborn anymore and not many firstborn actually need a ride. That big tank is priced also for its transport capacity.

Even if you just need a platform of lascannons: two razorbacks are much cheaper than a LR, have the same amount of lascannons but more staying power.

And for the same amount of a LR you can take 2x5 devastators with 8 lascannons, so twice the firepower. Not to mention other buffs as Signum, Cherubs, etc...

MM in 8th fired half shots and didn't have damage +2 while in half range. I'd be ok with 20ish ppm MM IF they had the 8th edition profile. Otherwise they're definitely worth 30+ ppm.

Even in armies that don't have primaris, where heavy weapons are few and far between, you would never run Land Raiders. They are a definition of overcosted. Just compare them to transports that actually do see use in 9th ed.

 Blackie wrote:


Lascannons are actually good for their points. Multi meltas should simply approx twice their current cost as they should be a bit more expensive than a twin lascannon. 35pts is the appropriate price for a multi melta I think.

One look at the unchanged in the FAQ cost of a darklance clearly shows us that first lascannons are not good, they are actually really bad, specially for a one shot heavy weapon with D6 wounds, and Multi Meltas are priced fair comparing to what dark lances can do. Just look how much a fist and MM dreadnought would cost, if the melta were to cost 35pts. Stuff like devastators would be valid to take, unless drop pods become free or something similar.

Scrapjet, hands down. You know, because orks can't take attack bikes.

Don't you ever get tired for crying for the most OP units of other codices all the time?

 Jidmah wrote:
Scrapjet, hands down. You know, because orks can't take attack bikes.

Don't you ever get tired for crying for the most OP units of other codices all the time?

Not to mention the attack bike is such a fugly model that even though it's one of the SM's best, you couldn't pay me to put them in my army. There one of those models that pretty much only tourney players use.

Scrapjet all day every day.

SemperMortis wrote:
i'm a bit floored here honestly. The thread is basically everyone agreeing the scrapjet is inferior and yet the polling says most people think they are almost equal.

because a ton of people are answering the poll cheekily like, "Well, I don't even PLAY Marines" or "That model is ugly, why would I EVER take it?" and missing the point of the poll/thread.

And this kind of community feedback may be partially why the state of the game is how it is.

Plus, he should do the math against some other units. Like Raiders or Terminators, etc.

A T7 3+ save vehicle isn't actually a common target right now. Pretty much only Sisters Rhinos.

Rihgu wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
i'm a bit floored here honestly. The thread is basically everyone agreeing the scrapjet is inferior and yet the polling says most people think they are almost equal.

because a ton of people are answering the poll cheekily like, "Well, I don't even PLAY Marines" or "That model is ugly, why would I EVER take it?" and missing the point of the poll/thread.

And this kind of community feedback may be partially why the state of the game is how it is.

I think the issue is more that people are trolling semper for rehashing the same arguments for years now. Ever since I returned to dakka in 8th, whenever any unit in any army is considered to be too good, he will directly compare it to the closest ork unit and create a huge analysis about how much better it is. That analysis always skips on any redeeming qualities, like he did with the korkscrew kustom job or deffskulls re-rolls in this case.
He then goes on to explain that the ork unit should be exactly as good as the unit the original army shouldn't be having in the first place. At the same time, he always ignores the context of the both armies and only compares both units in a vacuum, skipping army traits when they help the ork unit or picking the most powerful army traits for the non-ork unit even though they are a bad choice for the army as a whole/no one actually uses them competitively.

I didn't even have to read the first post to know what the content was. Don't believe me? Search his thread creation history.

The one and only value of this poll is that it clearly shows that people are sick of his gak.

 Jidmah wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
i'm a bit floored here honestly. The thread is basically everyone agreeing the scrapjet is inferior and yet the polling says most people think they are almost equal.

because a ton of people are answering the poll cheekily like, "Well, I don't even PLAY Marines" or "That model is ugly, why would I EVER take it?" and missing the point of the poll/thread.

And this kind of community feedback may be partially why the state of the game is how it is.

I think the issue is more that people are trolling semper for rehashing the same arguments for years now. Ever since I returned to dakka in 8th, whenever any unit in any army is considered to be too good, he will directly compare it to the closest ork unit and create a huge analysis about how much better it is. That analysis always skips on any redeeming qualities, like he did with the korkscrew kustom job or deffskulls re-rolls in this case.
He then goes on to explain that the ork unit should be exactly as good as the unit the original army shouldn't be having in the first place. At the same time, he always ignores the context of the both armies and only compares both units in a vacuum, skipping army traits when they help the ork unit or picking the most powerful army traits for the non-ork unit even though they are a bad choice for the army as a whole/no one actually uses them competitively.

I didn't even have to read the first post to know what the content was. Don't believe me? Search his thread creation history.

The one and only value of this poll is that it clearly shows that people are sick of his gak.

And here I was hoping you had me on ignore after your last tantrum. Oh well, I guess anytime anyone makes a thread showing disparity between two units there will always be someone like yourself to jump in, make false assumptions, lie, and than add nothing to the discussion except salt and personal attacks

That analysis always skips on any redeeming qualities, like he did with the korkscrew kustom job or deffskulls re-rolls in this case.

Let me re-quote the part you must have missed because you

didn't even have to read the first post

and I'm guessing you didn't read it at all

I included DDD into the Scrapjets shooting however I did not include doctrines, super doctrines or anything else for the Attack bikes.

I did especially love this part of your rant

he always ignores the context of the both armies and only compares both units in a vacuum, skipping army traits when they help the ork unit or picking the most powerful army traits for the non-ork unit even though they are a bad choice for the army as a whole/no one actually uses them competitively.

I could have very easily included a host of buffs onto the attack bike to make it better, especially since it was brought about in context of the Maryland GT winning White Scars list, including easy access to re-rolls, durability buffs etc etc, I could have also included strats and or faction bonuses for the Bikes, instead I kept it basically stat line vs statline and compared them against the same target. Basically you added nothing of any value to this conversation (Not surprising from you) but you did manage to show the community how absolutely negative you are. I'll remind you, I used to respect your opinion and dedication to the hobby, but ever since you did come back you have been an absolutely different person and your personal attacks and immature responses are getting tiresome to say the least.

Now with that little annoyance out of the way.

Quasistellar wrote:
Plus, he should do the math against some other units. Like Raiders or Terminators, etc.

A T7 3+ save vehicle isn't actually a common target right now. Pretty much only Sisters Rhinos.

Fair point, I do see a fair amount of vehicles running around the game but I get your point.

Against a Terminator The attack bikes do 4 shots with MM, 2.6 hits, 2.22 wounds, and against the 5+ Invuln save does 1.48 wounds which translates into 5.18 dmg. This becomes a bit trickier to math out since that 0.48 is very important because it means the difference between 1 going through and 2, the 5.18 is just the wounds x 3.5 (average D6 dmg). In reality it means that on average you will get 3 wounds every 2 turns which works out to basically 3 dead Terminators. The Bolters are 8 shots, 5.3 hits 2.65 wounds and 0.44 dmg a turn.

The Scrapjet on the flipside has 2D3 rokkitz which average 4 shots for 1.55 hits, 1.29 wounds and 0.64 going through armor for an average dmg of 1.94 a turn. The Wing Missile is 0.19 hits (-1 against infantry) 0.16 wounds, 0.08 going through armor for 0.24 dmg a turn. The Big Shootas work out to 2.33 hits and 3.5 hits respectively, 3.88 wounds, and 0.64 dmg.

In CC The 2 attack bikes get 6 attacks on the first round for 4 hits, 2 wounds and 0.33 dmg
The Scrapjet gets 4 attacks at S8 -2AP 2dmg at WS4 so 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.66 wounds 0.88 go through armor for 1.66 dmg. On the charge it also has a 50% chance to inflict D3 mortal wounds which averages out to 1MW on the charge (1x 0.5 = 0.5 x (D3=2) = 1)

So the MM attack bikes average 5.62 dmg shooting and 0.33 in CC Bikes end up just shy of 6dmg (NOTE: didn't include the +2dmg for half range since it wouldn't really matter vs 3 wound Terminators, just guarantees that 1 failed save = 1 dead Termi)
The Scrapjet averages 2.82dmg shooting and 1.66dmg in CC with 1MW on the charge. Scrapjet comes out with 5.48

The Ork model is much cooler!

TBH the Scrapjet seems like a pretty good unit specially with the attack two times kustom job.

But attack bikes are the most op unit in the space marine codex so...

I mean "OP" is a bit strong. Definitely one of the most powerful. SM anti tank internal codex balance is terrible.