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Good to see it's not just me who likes 1K. As someone who 1. has a self imposed "if it's not painted, it doesn't get played" rule and 2. is constantly flitting between different army projects, 1,000pt/50PL seems to me like the sweet spot between not giving oneself an insurmountable painting/modelling task and allowing an interesting mix of units, while still restricted enough that you need to think about what you are and aren't going to include.

I've not had a chance to play 9th yet but I'm really keen to crack on and try out the Incursion rules/missions.

I have been playing mostly 500 point games in 9th so far. A few 1000 points games also. I like this smaller scale of 500-1000 points.

The smaller games offer a bit of a different kind of an experience. You need to think a bit more with the lists as you can't fit in all the cool toys and also expensive units take a huge portion of your points so you may not want to take as many as you would in bigger games. The smaller board also affects your choices.

I like 1k point games, my fave is 1500.Allows the option for a big showcase model but forces trade offs for bringing it.

I loved 500 point games (with sensible restrictions) in 8th. It seems with the points changes the equivalent is roughly 750, so I don't see why i wouldn't enjoy 1000.

2000 is just boring. Sooo many lasgun dice to roll. Much rather in 8th play 3 500 point games than one 2000.

ccs wrote:
Small games aren't my preference. Sci-fi, fantasy, historicals, etc- I've always been drawn to playing ARMIES.

Me too. But unless you have an amazingly large playing space 40k isn't army scale.

How do people play armies that have pre build section in big 600-800pts chunks, that don't fit in to 500 or 1000pts?

Karol wrote:
How do people play armies that have pre build section in big 600-800pts chunks, that don't fit in to 500 or 1000pts?

The only army that works this way is knights, which frankly don't work at all at this level.

I like big games. 2500 mins is what my friends do for casual games. 2000 for competitive. Never anything lower because...why?

when I'm playing a game for my utter enjoyment, it's going to be 3000-4000 points, on a double table, all painted, played all day.

But I like being able to pop up to the shop for a quick 1000 points in an evening.

Karol wrote:
How do people play armies that have pre build section in big 600-800pts chunks, that don't fit in to 500 or 1000pts?

What armies or "sections" (I'm not sure what you're talking about here) need to do this?

Well for GK for example to use a lot of the armies strenght you need a 10 man unit of something. Power armour units are not resilient enough, so this means either 10 termintors or 10 paladins. Then depending what ever you run a battalion or patrol there are specific things you have to take to make the list legal. So if you were to decide to run a unit of 10 paladins and 5 termintors you just run out of points. Even 10 termintors more or less locks you out of the game.

Then there is stuff like support section, or the need to run 3 characters to be able to use the rules GK got in their PA book, that are the only thing that keeps them afloat in 9th ed. And while you do this you have to remember that abhore the witch is a thing, so just trying to horde it up with weaker 5 man strikes and cheaper characters doesn't really work, because it is free secondaries given to the opponent.

And you can't really run any combo stuff, at least as far as GK goes, because most unit+character+ some sort of support goes over 500pts. And top of that it doesn't leave you any free points to run servitors as objective campers.

1000 points armies work very differently than 2000 points ones. In smaller games some min/cheap units have a role, even if they are trash in larger games.

Now I'm no GK expert, but SW which are still an elite oriented army, can definitely work at 1000 points, even with multiple lists archetypes. 3 man squads of TWC for example are gold in 1000 points games, but meh in 2000 points where 5 man squads are recommended. In fact, due to the current state of GK I suspect they might work better in smaller games than standard ones.

All units in power armour and terminators are good in 5 man squads. Or 3, if it's their min size allowed. Note that they don't need to be as killy or effective as they need to be in 2000 points games to be worthy.

Well the thing is something like charge buffs or blessed ammo strategams don't really work on 5 man or smaller squads. GK have no, other then serivitors which aren't core, cheap chaff or very resilient or cheap hammer units. A DE player can cust his army in half and just run a really big patrol or a smaller battalion and his army will work downgraded to 1000pts. You can't really do the same when 10 troop models cost you 400pts. It is practicaly impossible to fit in an HQ for such a force, specially as the only worth taking are way over or around 200pts.

Now I am not saying that it can't work for all armies, but I struggle to imagine how an elite army like custodes or GK beats a highly optimised SoB swarm list, or even something like DG or DEs. Specially with the way secondaries work in 9th ed.

@Karol, you are trying to stuff 2000 points tactics and strategies into 1000 points. It's a different meta, different things work.

Big blocks of 10 expensive models really do not work well, both because you will be lacking units to take objectives an score secondaries, and because you have a lot less CP to burn.

DG really do work well at 1k points if you don't run blocks of blightlords, but multiple small units. Deathshrouds are a great unit because they can go down to 3 models, while 5 blightlords are huge investment that can easily be played around.

I can imagine that some of the cheaper GK HQs and power armor units might really work a lot better. Also keep in mind that your codex is still due for its 9th update, which probably hurts GK more than anyone.

Most of the GK HQs cost 100-120 points, 10 PA dudes are 200 points plus upgrades and 10 termies are 380 points plus upgrades. There's no need of units that cost over 200 points in a 1000 points game, let alone 400ish. Use squads of 5 instead of 10, in those games there's also no need of the cheesiest combos or stratagem to make units work. That works both ways, also the opponent can't field the same combos he would field at 2000 points and he'll be forced to make choices. Power armour dudes or termies don't die as fast as in 2000 points games for example.

Looks like GK can definitely fit a 1000 points list. I can do it and have fun with power armour and terminator SW dudes, which cost the same basically. Now of course SW have an updated codex and GK don't, but it doesn't mean that the army can't possibly work in smaller games.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I loved 500 point games (with sensible restrictions) in 8th. It seems with the points changes the equivalent is roughly 750, so I don't see why i wouldn't enjoy 1000.

2000 is just boring. Sooo many lasgun dice to roll. Much rather in 8th play 3 500 point games than one 2000.

ccs wrote:
Small games aren't my preference. Sci-fi, fantasy, historicals, etc- I've always been drawn to playing ARMIES.

Me too. But unless you have an amazingly large playing space 40k isn't army scale.

4x6 or 4x8 table has always proven sufficient in my opinion/xp. Even when playing Guard or Tyranids.

ccs wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I loved 500 point games (with sensible restrictions) in 8th. It seems with the points changes the equivalent is roughly 750, so I don't see why i wouldn't enjoy 1000.

2000 is just boring. Sooo many lasgun dice to roll. Much rather in 8th play 3 500 point games than one 2000.

ccs wrote:
Small games aren't my preference. Sci-fi, fantasy, historicals, etc- I've always been drawn to playing ARMIES.

Me too. But unless you have an amazingly large playing space 40k isn't army scale.

4x6 or 4x8 table has always proven sufficient in my opinion/xp. Even when playing Guard or Tyranids.

Try playing buggies

Seriously, feth those huge bases. Essentially there is a 9-12 hard cap on buggies, you simply can't fit more in one deployment zone.

Karol wrote:
Well for GK for example to use a lot of the armies strenght you need a 10 man unit of something. Power armour units are not resilient enough *snip*

It is in small games. You aren't facing the big expensive threats because, well they are expensive. Someone comes with a deathstar, you let him eat his imperial guard squads or chimera in one part of the board, because you simply have better coverage. Those power armour guys are quite happy facing down enemy troops who are moaning about your unkillable marines. Space the objectives, have sensible scenarios and you will see very diferent armies, or cut down normal ones which you can beat by play the scenario not the kill count.

Yeah, I've actually got a little houserule system for making 1k games more granular/last longer.

Basically I go back to old-school morale (tests on 2d6 regardless of casualties, unit runs away rather than models removed if the test is failed), and adds in vehicle/monster flanking and a couple other things in a way that's compatible with 9th ed rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blndmage wrote:

Karol wrote:
How do people play armies that have pre build section in big 600-800pts chunks, that don't fit in to 500 or 1000pts?

What armies or "sections" (I'm not sure what you're talking about here) need to do this?

I mean its karol, so, context clues we know he's vagueposting about GK as always. And I'm guessing this is his current magical gw conspiracy of "gw made eldar work in 500pt chunks (or something) so this proves that its a secret evil conspiracy to sell eldar and GW hates space marine armies"

ccs wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:


Me too. But unless you have an amazingly large playing space 40k isn't army scale.

4x6 or 4x8 table has always proven sufficient in my opinion/xp. Even when playing Guard or Tyranids.

I think it comes down to what you are used to. I started with historicals and 1st ed, so have never gotten use to the 'crowd' I see in big games on small tables. For me it makes the game immersion far less at the start.

We usually do 1000 point games. We get our venue for 4 hours, with setup and tear-down times included.
1000 points keeps the bigger models out, since we are quite casual about our games. Since we don't play that often, we try to keep them simple, too.

Played my first set of 1000 points games (alebit with two of my own armies [daemons v CSM] with my friend who is learning playing CSM) and I simply like the game better at that size. I understand if people don't get to play that often so want to use all their models, but I plan on trying to get back to 1 or 2 games a month, and with that 1000 points is the best official (as in in the book) level I think for this game.

PROS

Only 6 command points: This is probably the best part. With only 6 command points you really have to think about how you spend them instead of no-brainer uses like EC plus VotlW every turn regardless of target, then all the defense buffs in the following phase. If you want extra relics, WL traits etc, or if you plan on using CP defensively, or getting off a big combo,you can, but you are not going to be able to do all of that. And the players really need to think about when to use the command re-roll, because if it is used as willy-nilly as in some 2000 point games, you will be out of CP by the end of your turn one easy. Personally my experience makes me think maybe 2000 points should really go down to 9 CP to help cap all the silliness (Although my best fix for stratagems is to not allow them to stack, so only one stratagem active at a time.)

Less Lethal, well mostly: If really felt that models could survive better, especially high wound models like vehicles or monsters. There is just so much less AT and heavy firepower because you still need the troops for objectives, and so they are a higher percentage of your points, and troops units tend to be less killy. Because of this both games were competitive all the way to the last turn.

No super buff, buffing: Because lists are more limited on points, it is harder to squeeze in all the buffing characters you might want. So you actually have to think what you need, instead of just bringing three of the best buffers and calling it a day. Again more to think about making the game feel more deep.

List building is more challenging: Having to figure out how to include what you need with only 1000 points really makes you think of how you need to play your army. You can't really just spam the best units, because that will likely leave you with a hole in your force.

Games play fast: Even teaching my buddy the rules, the games were really quick. Especially if you want to squeeze in two games, as all the "overhead" like setting up terrain, unpacking models etc. are already done after the first game.

The board feels less clogged: Even on the smaller table (we used my office table at my work) it felt less cluttered than 2000 points.

NEUTRAL

I actually don't think bringing a LoW to this size game is going to break it (although some really good units might see below). In fact it seems that if someone brought a LoW it would eat up so many points that they would really be handicapping themselves with winning because they won't have the necessary board control. Same with flyers (who can't control objectives at all). I think I would like to play some games against them to see, but I don't think you would even need a restriction on these units at 1000 points.

It really does take about the same amount of time to set up terrain, get units unpacked etc., so you are not really saving on time there.


CONS

As said above, LoW units are probably not good at this level. So there are models in people's collections that would probably never make it into this size game (like I wouldn't bring Magnus) and thus get rarely used.

Outside of LoW, I can see how really efficient elite units could skew the game. When we played the obliterates (300ish points) preformed really well as there was less to deal with them, and their very good firepower output is more effective as there are less units. I could see how there could be an exploit of taking two or even three really killy elite units in the 200-300 point range with really cheap objective holders and kind of skewing the game. I still think it would be less lethal, but losing units quickly is a bigger deal at 1000 points, so a good round with two or three killy units could potentially realistically end the game turn 1 or 2.

The small table: The smaller table does feel like it gives a bit on a unfair advantage to melee armies. I could see how some units (like shining spears or units with advance and charge) are easily getting off turn one charges, which again could really unbalance the game.

CONCLUSION

I do like 2000 points, and will play it, especially if I want to use Magnus, but I think I am going to try to focus on play 1000 points for a while if I can.

Also I think the perfect level would probably be about 1250 points (as long as the CP did not increase) and even with 1000 points I think I am going to suggest playing on a slightly bigger board (maybe 44" by 44" instead of 44" by 30").

Those are my thoughts, and thanks for all the feedback to my original post everyone, it really encouraged me to get in and play some 1000 point games.

In 8th we found a 4x4 table was best for 500 point games. For a thousand I would want at least that if not 6x4. The latter would make people think about needing to move more than the 18" you get away with on crowded boards over the course of the game...

Certainly do, and we use power level rather than points at 25 pwr( 500 pts ).

Being a Titanicus player I'm interested in Knights but for 25 pwr the only option is three Armigers as either Helverins or Warglaives. But maybe its best I leave knights in that other game. Its a shame that Knights can't take paragon warsuits as I'd definitely order a pack right now...

I feel like 2000 point games on the current 60x44" table feel too cramped.
If GW decided to up costs by 10-15% across the board, I think the game would be smoother and the matches would take a little less time.
Since this is unlikely to happen (more models required to play = more sales), I think that the sweet spot could be 1750, or even 1500.

1000 points are a completely different anumal and I kinda like these games as well, but the balance is completely different than at 2000 points.
One thing to note is that 1000 point games on the 44x30" table suggested by GW feel definitely too cramped.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

ccs wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:


Me too. But unless you have an amazingly large playing space 40k isn't army scale.

4x6 or 4x8 table has always proven sufficient in my opinion/xp. Even when playing Guard or Tyranids.

I think it comes down to what you are used to. I started with historicals and 1st ed, so have never gotten use to the 'crowd' I see in big games on small tables. For me it makes the game immersion far less at the start.

Myself, I wouldn't call a 4x8 table "small"...

I prefer Incursion on 44x60 boards as I find the recommended 44x30 too small for tactical plays.

I'd much rather play four 1k games than struggle to get two 2k games in.

With time as limited as it is, I want to play as much as I can. The lower point games have really been fun for the sheer variety of stuff you can see.

IMO, of course.

ccs wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

ccs wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:


Me too. But unless you have an amazingly large playing space 40k isn't army scale.

4x6 or 4x8 table has always proven sufficient in my opinion/xp. Even when playing Guard or Tyranids.

I think it comes down to what you are used to. I started with historicals and 1st ed, so have never gotten use to the 'crowd' I see in big games on small tables. For me it makes the game immersion far less at the start.

Myself, I wouldn't call a 4x8 table "small"...

I would if I had a lot of models... The traditional 2000 points 6x4 was to my eyes hopelessly crowded. I am used to games, whether Epic or king of the battlefield, where you have multiple lines of troops, spacing between and around them, and the requirement to do a decent bit of movement. My experience with say Guard in 40k was it took forever and the two sides would broadly advance to grind into each other and bar a few units flitting around that was all the movement you got.

Increasing the space armies have to operate in and the distances they need to voer and you get a very different game, that isn't that grinding dice throwing contest but where transports and other forgotten aspects make a lot more sense. Really at this point I have to admit to myself I am just pining for Epic A whenever I see my 40k models on a table...

Karol wrote:
I don't think I ever saw someone want to play 1000pts, unless 1000pts was all they had. And they generally didn't like the expiriance because two 1000pts armies are not balanced v one 2000pts one.

the idea is to play 1000 vs 1000, not 2x1000 vs 2000.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I loved 500 point games (with sensible restrictions) in 8th. It seems with the points changes the equivalent is roughly 750, so I don't see why i wouldn't enjoy 1000.

2000 is just boring. Sooo many lasgun dice to roll. Much rather in 8th play 3 500 point games than one 2000.

ccs wrote:
Small games aren't my preference. Sci-fi, fantasy, historicals, etc- I've always been drawn to playing ARMIES.

Me too. But unless you have an amazingly large playing space 40k isn't army scale.

500-750 is doable, but it requires a lot of discussion beforehand. They did NOT balance for that points level, so you can get some oddball matchups if you aren't careful.