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I'm really interested to see what this chaos force looks like, that's a cool place to explore.

Looking forward to reading the story as well!

a_typical_hero wrote:

Pickled_egg wrote:
But with bloat often comes inbalance, Back in the day (3.5) I had to ban the book of nine swords from my D&D table as everything in it was open to abuse and every character was coming with the same broken combinations.

And D&D by its nature isn't supposed to be a game where the players are competing against eachother or the GM, 40k on the otherhand is exactly that.
Throw in competition play and surely you see the issue?

Bo9S was my favourite out of the bunch Loved how it made fights more than just "I make a full attack" for melees.

D&D isn't competitive, but the fun for everyone is just as ruined if the power level between two characters is too big. As a GM you surely understood how impossible it is to challenge a "core only, lvl 20 Fighter" and a creative Wizard who knows their stuff at the same time.

Same applies to 40k, really. If you show up with the latest netlist pre-nerf Dhrukari against someone who plays a casual Guard list, it won't be a good game for either of you.
I acknowledge that the more rulebooks you have, the higher is the chance that there might be something (too) strong in it, but that is a trade off for more options that I willingly take.

On a side note:
It is easier to say "can we please not use that book today?" than "Here are my 5 pages of homebrew rules I want to use in our battle".

Well D&D has been impossible to balance at level 20 in every single iteration, but I get what you are saying about Bo9S helping fighters compete with wizards.
I just got tired of every character speccing into one or two broken abilities, I'm an old fart now so I forgot the name of the key culprit I wanna say It was Diamond Heart or Iron mind or something like that.

But I feel its getting a little off topic

I think the bloat is going to catch up to 40k at some point, but I can't argue against your personal preference of liking more options we just differ on it.

So there is no N&R thread for this book for some reason so I will post it here just so everyone sees it........

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/29/belakors-back-and-the-galaxys-mightiest-warriors-should-be-very-afraid/

Bel'akor looks awesome. First I think the model is absolutely stunning but man is he going to be a beast. And the Noctic discipline looks pretty great as I would use all three of those powers, and it looks like psykers in his army can also use that discipline, which is cool. I am looking forward to this book. To bad the two codex that it affects (CSM/Daemons) are still not out yet, which is so A** backwards.

Pickled_egg wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Pickled_egg wrote:

When they release the Drukhari codex and then a week later Book of Rust 1 with a must have Cult of Strife detachment its cynical DLC, simple as that. You can't defend that.
It looks like they are doing the same with sisters.

First of all, do you know what the initial release dates were planned to be?

I'm going to guess "No".

Personally I'd be fine with the Book of Rust series if it served as a bridge to balance factions that they know aren't getting a codex for a while OR kept it to non matched play formations/rules only.

That's not what this is though. We don't have "formations" anymore, by the by. That was two editions ago.

The literal, whole point of this series is not to "serve as a bridge to balance factions". It's to highlight specific warzones. End of story. Some of the content is generic(Mechanicus Defense Force) while some of it is specific(Cult of Strife and Metalica rules) to groups engaged in that area.

Don't like it? Don't buy it.

It's the DLC following hot on the heels of codexes which is a joke.

Frankly, the joke is all the whining over these things. OH NOES THEY RELEASED A BOOK BEFORE/AROUND ANOTHER BOOK! The gall! Those blackguards!

In the real world, people should know that books have been delayed thanks to covid and the general screwed nature of worldwide shipping. We also know that there's several more warzones to come.

I could easily turn your argument around though and say that you don't know what the release dates were supposed to be either and that it may have been "working as intended" to release Book of Rust the week after the Drukhari codex. But then I'd be arguing in bad faith like you are.

As for "Covid did it" that's not valid either.

The fact is if you are a Drukhari player who appreciates the competitive aspect of the game you needed to Buy Book of rust for 3-4 pages of rules. Please don't insult my intelligence and expect me to believe that the most competitive Cult option being hidden away in a DLC supplement is just a co-incidence and not a calculated move by GW to drive sales.

Given that, less than a month after release, that most competitive cult option that was present in the book of rust got deleted from a game in a GENERAL GAME WIDE FAQ AFFECTING ALL ARMIES, I would say yeah, it seems likely to me that it was a co-incidence, and the specific interaction between a generic weapon and a particular warlord trait that caused a character to throw an average of 28 attacks was unintended.

Bel'akor looks awesome. For casual play.
In competitive play where you have to play against ad mech I can't see how he's not a 300-400 point sink that will die in a single round of shooting.

Maybe hiding behind obscuring till needed can help, but it's not looking good.
Even if you get into combat with one of their units, they just fall back, blast you with 12 d3+3 lascannon shots from chickens, and even -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and the strategum aren't going to help you there. I guess we will see. Hard to get excited though with admech looming over.

I expect Be'Lakor to martyr a fair number of sisters, but I don't think we'll be letting him or his infernal minions use too many of their witch powers.

What better way to repent our sins than charging headlong with eviscerators hungry to bring the Emperor's wrath to Heresy made flesh?

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Bel'akor looks awesome. For casual play.
In competitive play where you have to play against ad mech I can't see how he's not a 300-400 point sink that will die in a single round of shooting.

Maybe hiding behind obscuring till needed can help, but it's not looking good.
Even if you get into combat with one of their units, they just fall back, blast you with 12 d3+3 lascannon shots from chickens, and even -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and the strategum aren't going to help you there. I guess we will see. Hard to get excited though with admech looming over.

That stratagem is going to be nerfed for the auto wounds. Not much need to worry about that IMO. Heck even DE with poison is a big threat to belakor.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Bel'akor looks awesome. For casual play.
In competitive play where you have to play against ad mech I can't see how he's not a 300-400 point sink that will die in a single round of shooting.

Maybe hiding behind obscuring till needed can help, but it's not looking good.
Even if you get into combat with one of their units, they just fall back, blast you with 12 d3+3 lascannon shots from chickens, and even -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and the strategum aren't going to help you there. I guess we will see. Hard to get excited though with admech looming over.

That stratagem is going to be nerfed for the auto wounds. Not much need to worry about that IMO. Heck even DE with poison is a big threat to belakor.

Hitting on 4s and wounding on 5s means they'll take 96 D1 poison shots to bracket him, and twice that to kill him.

It's possible, sure-but I've not seen DE lists taking that much poison.

I don't understand what nerf that strategum could take to make it still not oppressive. Or, at least the fix I hear most people thinking it will get changed to, is not much better.

Say they change it from a 4+ to hit being auto to a 4+ to wound being auto. Does it fix it? No.

60 shots hitting on 2s rerolling means, even with benefit of the doubt, 2 shots miss. 58 shots hit, now rolling to wound means 29 auto wounds. Compared to the 30 auto wounds that the strategum is RAW getting. That's marginally better and still extremely oppressive.

The only way I see the strategum not be oppressive is if A) It doesn't work on monsters (unlikely, doesn't really work with the fluff) B) they cap the amount of wounds generated by this strategum to 10 (also seems unlikely, as the only thing GW seems to sometimes cap is mortal wounds), or C) reduce the max size of skitarii units back to 10 (this is my hope as it would make things the most balanced imo, but is also the most unlikely for GW to do).

And that's just one of the broken problems coming from ad mech.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Bel'akor looks awesome. For casual play.
In competitive play where you have to play against ad mech I can't see how he's not a 300-400 point sink that will die in a single round of shooting.

Maybe hiding behind obscuring till needed can help, but it's not looking good.
Even if you get into combat with one of their units, they just fall back, blast you with 12 d3+3 lascannon shots from chickens, and even -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and the strategum aren't going to help you there. I guess we will see. Hard to get excited though with admech looming over.

That stratagem is going to be nerfed for the auto wounds. Not much need to worry about that IMO. Heck even DE with poison is a big threat to belakor.

Hitting on 4s and wounding on 5s means they'll take 96 D1 poison shots to bracket him, and twice that to kill him.

It's possible, sure-but I've not seen DE lists taking that much poison.

Yeah at least the -1 to hit and wound have an effect on poison shots. My standard kabal only list has 5 raider boats with a darklance on a 10 man kabal - rapid fire at max range with splint racks. That is 90 poison shots and 10 dark lances with a reroll wound from obsidian rose. Pretty good chance at killing belakor or putting him in final bracket with just about 1000 points of firepower.

The 4+ to hit auto wound stratagem pretty much completely bypasses Belkors defense though.
Just say 60 shots - 30 autowounds - belekor is dead or has 2 or so wounds left - he only has a 4++ save. This is the most stupid stratagem to ever exist. 160 points outshoots 1000 points of dedicated anti monster firepower. It shouldn't survive very long in it's current form.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I don't understand what nerf that strategum could take to make it still not oppressive. Or, at least the fix I hear most people thinking it will get changed to, is not much better.

Say they change it from a 4+ to hit being auto to a 4+ to wound being auto. Does it fix it? No.

60 shots hitting on 2s rerolling means, even with benefit of the doubt, 2 shots miss. 58 shots hit, now rolling to wound means 29 auto wounds. Compared to the 30 auto wounds that the strategum is RAW getting. That's marginally better and still extremely oppressive.

The only way I see the strategum not be oppressive is if A) It doesn't work on monsters (unlikely, doesn't really work with the fluff) B) they cap the amount of wounds generated by this strategum to 10 (also seems unlikely, as the only thing GW seems to sometimes cap is mortal wounds), or C) reduce the max size of skitarii units back to 10 (this is my hope as it would make things the most balanced imo, but is also the most unlikely for GW to do).

And that's just one of the broken problems coming from ad mech.

The simple fix is - make the stratagem exploding 6's. So each 6 to hit counts as 2 autowounds. Very much like the necron stratagem which is 6's to hit auto wound.

FYI as written minuses to wound have no affect on Drukhari poison. That ability allows wounds to go off on an unmodified value equal to or greater than the Poison value. Modifying the roll does bupkis.

Transhuman trumps it because it has the "regardless of other abilities" clause. Smoky boi does not.

Sterling191 wrote:
FYI as written minuses to wound have no affect on Drukhari poison. That ability allows wounds to go off on an unmodified value equal to or greater than the Poison value. Modifying the roll does bupkis.

Transhuman trumps it because it has the "regardless of other abilities" clause. Smoky boi does not.

Really?

Huh. Feels kinda dumb to make that bypass wound maluses, but so it is.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
FYI as written minuses to wound have no affect on Drukhari poison. That ability allows wounds to go off on an unmodified value equal to or greater than the Poison value. Modifying the roll does bupkis.

Transhuman trumps it because it has the "regardless of other abilities" clause. Smoky boi does not.

Really?

Huh. Feels kinda dumb to make that bypass wound maluses, but so it is.

I wasn't certain how it worked. That makes a significant difference for drakari vs him. 90 shots = 45 hits = 22.5 wounds = 12 wounds. Then a single dark lance wound will kill him - or 2 if he spends 2 CP to block the first one. It is pretty much a 0 chance situation. It is pretty much exactly the same for Morty. Also auto lose vs DE and Admech.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
FYI as written minuses to wound have no affect on Drukhari poison. That ability allows wounds to go off on an unmodified value equal to or greater than the Poison value. Modifying the roll does bupkis.

Transhuman trumps it because it has the "regardless of other abilities" clause. Smoky boi does not.

Really?

Huh. Feels kinda dumb to make that bypass wound maluses, but so it is.

I wasn't certain how it worked. That makes a significant difference for drakari vs him. 90 shots = 45 hits = 22.5 wounds = 12 wounds. Then a single dark lance wound will kill him - or 2 if he spends 2 CP to block the first one. It is pretty much a 0 chance situation. It is pretty much exactly the same for Morty. Also auto lose vs DE and Admech.

22.5/2=11.25.

No idea how you get 12 from that.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
FYI as written minuses to wound have no affect on Drukhari poison. That ability allows wounds to go off on an unmodified value equal to or greater than the Poison value. Modifying the roll does bupkis.

Transhuman trumps it because it has the "regardless of other abilities" clause. Smoky boi does not.

Really?

Huh. Feels kinda dumb to make that bypass wound maluses, but so it is.

I wasn't certain how it worked. That makes a significant difference for drakari vs him. 90 shots = 45 hits = 22.5 wounds = 12 wounds. Then a single dark lance wound will kill him - or 2 if he spends 2 CP to block the first one. It is pretty much a 0 chance situation. It is pretty much exactly the same for Morty. Also auto lose vs DE and Admech.

22.5/2=11.25.

No idea how you get 12 from that.

You are right - so it would be 11 rounded down. So the first dark lance would need to roll a 5 for damage to kill him.

All of that math is contingent on deploying where the 20 Skitarii have a clear LoS to big B and then they get the first turn.

If I ever play Big B, I just won't do that.

PenitentJake wrote:
All of that math is contingent on deploying where the 20 Skitarii have a clear LoS to big B and then they get the first turn.

If I ever play Big B, I just won't do that.

The can deep strike them turn 1 with a relic. They can Deep strike another on turn 2. It is unavoidable. If 160 points is controlling where 450 points can go...you have also already won.

Just get it out of your mind that you can beat this stratagem. You can't beat it with an elite monster in your list. That is for sure.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Huh. Feels kinda dumb to make that bypass wound maluses, but so it is.

Keep in mind that poison is generally gak against moderate to good save targets, especially of the infantry variety. Your basic 5-man kabalite squad is killing a whopping 1 (maaaaaybe 2) guardsman per salvo on average (assuming you get into RF range). MEQ, and especially TEQ targets can safely ignore it. Where it shines is against high toughness, poor save, non-vehicle targets. Which is generally only a handful of models that actually see play. Boo Boo is unfortunately one of those.

Sterling191 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Huh. Feels kinda dumb to make that bypass wound maluses, but so it is.

Keep in mind that poison is generally gak against moderate to good save targets, especially of the infantry variety. Your basic 5-man kabalite squad is killing a whopping 1 (maaaaaybe 2) guardsman per salvo on average (assuming you get into RF range). MEQ, and especially TEQ targets can safely ignore it. Where it shines is against high toughness, poor save, non-vehicle targets. Which is generally only a handful of models that actually see play. Boo Boo is unfortunately one of those.

Personally I am not a fan of poison. Eldar should have advanced weaponry - not posion darts. I would have much prefered DE focus on monofilament weapons or something. The ony thing poison is really good at is killing monsters. Kinda strange...you would certainly expect an army that has come to feast on the pain of their enemies would be more concerned with infantry.

I think of poison weapons as a terribly painful way to die. I don't know the exact fluff behind drukhari weapons, but I imagine dying by one of their poisoned weapons is more slow and painful than a bolter. Hard to represent that on the table though--a casualty is a casualty (although there could also be leadership penalties, but drukhari have other stuff for that)

 Xenomancers wrote:

The can deep strike them turn 1 with a relic. They can Deep strike another on turn 2. It is unavoidable. If 160 points is controlling where 450 points can go...you have also already won.

18" guns and obscuring terrain. Buffer the firing lanes with chaff. This isn't always a slam dunk.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The can deep strike them turn 1 with a relic. They can Deep strike another on turn 2. It is unavoidable. If 160 points is controlling where 450 points can go...you have also already won.

18" guns and obscuring terrain. Buffer the firing lanes with chaff. This isn't always a slam dunk.

18/21 is actually plenty. The amount of area you need to screen Is enormous to block that. Essentially you'd have to clog up a 30" bubble to prevent them from shooting you. Not to mention morty/magnus don't get the obscuring rule. Belakor does though I think hes only 16 wounds.

The unit has a foot print of it's own. It is pretty easy to spread to either side of obscuring terrain. Yes, B is 16. M&M are going to want to come in from reserves.

Reminder that Belakor is a daemon and his army will thus have access to Nurglings. Dude's gonna have some screening.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Bel'akor looks awesome. For casual play.
In competitive play where you have to play against ad mech I can't see how he's not a 300-400 point sink that will die in a single round of shooting.

Maybe hiding behind obscuring till needed can help, but it's not looking good.
Even if you get into combat with one of their units, they just fall back, blast you with 12 d3+3 lascannon shots from chickens, and even -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and the strategum aren't going to help you there. I guess we will see. Hard to get excited though with admech looming over.

That stratagem is going to be nerfed for the auto wounds. Not much need to worry about that IMO. Heck even DE with poison is a big threat to belakor.

Hitting on 4s and wounding on 5s means they'll take 96 D1 poison shots to bracket him, and twice that to kill him.

It's possible, sure-but I've not seen DE lists taking that much poison.

wound on 4s.

Poison is a weapon that has a strength value (usually 2) but it has a special rule that causes a natural roll of 4+ to always succeed. So his "-1 to wound rolls" ability doesnt matter.

Belakor isn't so huge that he cant be hidden. If you look at the tables from the US Tournament packet, I think he could pretty safely deploy.

Deepstriking anywhere for any possible attack vector is a lot more difficult now that tables are smaller. It might just be my area (because my tables look a lot like GW's tournament tables, with lots of obscuring terrain) but a lot of players have stopped deep striking in units because finding a place for them to deploy, that's relevant is getting a lot more difficult.

He will also have access to screening units, like Arachnofiend stated, nurglings specifically, some of the best little screening units in the game, as well as demons in general. I think if you plan to screen belakor it can be done relatively well.

also, not everyone plays drukhari or admech. i think he'll be a fine choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:
I expect Be'Lakor to martyr a fair number of sisters, but I don't think we'll be letting him or his infernal minions use too many of their witch powers.

What better way to repent our sins than charging headlong with eviscerators hungry to bring the Emperor's wrath to Heresy made flesh?

How THIS is how you 40K!

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Bel'akor looks awesome. For casual play.
In competitive play where you have to play against ad mech I can't see how he's not a 300-400 point sink that will die in a single round of shooting.

Maybe hiding behind obscuring till needed can help, but it's not looking good.
Even if you get into combat with one of their units, they just fall back, blast you with 12 d3+3 lascannon shots from chickens, and even -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and the strategum aren't going to help you there. I guess we will see. Hard to get excited though with admech looming over.

That stratagem is going to be nerfed for the auto wounds. Not much need to worry about that IMO. Heck even DE with poison is a big threat to belakor.

Is this from the same source that said the Deathwing inner circle terminators would get nerfed ? I'm just curious if I have awhile to wait for those nerfs.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:


Is this from the same source that said the Deathwing inner circle terminators would get nerfed ? I'm just curious if I have awhile to wait for those nerfs.

He did, but I personally am ok with DA termies.

This situation is a bit different since it is offensive in nature. It should probably get nerfed, buuuut I haven't seen much data or had any games against admech to develop a strong opinion.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Bel'akor looks awesome. For casual play.
In competitive play where you have to play against ad mech I can't see how he's not a 300-400 point sink that will die in a single round of shooting.

Maybe hiding behind obscuring till needed can help, but it's not looking good.
Even if you get into combat with one of their units, they just fall back, blast you with 12 d3+3 lascannon shots from chickens, and even -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and the strategum aren't going to help you there. I guess we will see. Hard to get excited though with admech looming over.

That stratagem is going to be nerfed for the auto wounds. Not much need to worry about that IMO. Heck even DE with poison is a big threat to belakor.

Is this from the same source that said the Deathwing inner circle terminators would get nerfed ? I'm just curious if I have awhile to wait for those nerfs.

The source was me - I guessed wrong. After looking at the space marine and Necron Codex (which clearly have something called "restraint" imbedded in their rules) I figured DA was a mistake. It wasn't. The power creep is real.

Xenomancers 799373 11161465 ec1b4a53663f66e7ade4121ad439d863 wrote:
The source was me - I guessed wrong. After looking at the space marine and Necron Codex (which clearly have something called "restraint" imbedded in their rules) I figured DA was a mistake. It wasn't. The power creep is real.

Is it powercreep when it doesn't result in sustained win percentages above 50%?