Charadon book Two

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**PenitentJake**

Kanluwen wrote:

Everybody NEEDED the PA content to "keep up".

Yeah, that's pretty much what I said, right? I mean sure, I used the words "a lot" rather than "all" because greater numbers of people tend to object to absolutes, but you and I are on the same page here.

Kanluwen wrote:

CSM are not special. If it's essential content, either buy it or don't.

It isn't the CSM that are special in this context; it's the fact that their dex isn't out yet that is the issue. That's what's causing the speculation that this will be essential content.

Kanluwen wrote:

It's becoming vastly irritating to constantly have threads about how these supplements are such "essential content" for matched play or casual players that have been sucked into metachasing by a de facto matched play environment.

Again, I agree 100%- in threads that argue Charadon content has been essential, I tend to disagree. And the post that you're quoting actually suggests that if we could see the Chaos dex, the material in the BoF is likely to be optional by comparison.

Kanluwen wrote:

Or there's the other irritating factor of "BUT WHY WASN'T IT IN THE BOOK!!!!"...because they didn't have it for everyone, so they left it out. People whined about the SM supplement book format, they whined about the PA format, they whined about the Vigilus format. There's literally no winning for them, so they've picked a method and run with it.

Pretty much agree here too. It amazes me how many damned if they do/ damned if they don't situations come up on Dakka. There literally is no way for GW to keep everyone happy- every decision they make is going to be the wrong call for somebody.

**Kanluwen**

Pickled_egg wrote:

When they release the Drukhari codex and then a week later Book of Rust 1 with a must have Cult of Strife detachment its cynical DLC, simple as that. You can't defend that.
It looks like they are doing the same with sisters.

First of all, do you know what the initial release dates were planned to be?

I'm going to guess "No".

Personally I'd be fine with the Book of Rust series if it served as a bridge to balance factions that they know aren't getting a codex for a while OR kept it to non matched play formations/rules only.

That's not what this is though. We don't have "formations" anymore, by the by. That was two editions ago.

The literal, whole point of this series is not to "serve as a bridge to balance factions". It's to highlight specific warzones. End of story. Some of the content is generic(Mechanicus Defense Force) while some of it is specific(Cult of Strife and Metalica rules) to groups engaged in that area.

Don't like it? Don't buy it.

It's the DLC following hot on the heels of codexes which is a joke.

Frankly, the joke is all the whining over these things. OH NOES THEY RELEASED A BOOK BEFORE/AROUND ANOTHER BOOK! The gall! Those blackguards!

In the real world, people should know that books have been delayed thanks to covid and the general screwed nature of worldwide shipping. We also know that there's several more warzones to come.

troll?

Any chance you can make your argument without resorting to Ad hominin attacks?

if you can't then don't waste my time.

Cool, you want an argument about lootboxes?

It's the weakest argument, literally, that anyone can make about something they dislike. They consistently use it as a way to try to make something sound awful or mandatory when it has zero involvement.

GW isn't some F2P game dev trying to get you constantly panic-buying because "DEAL! DEAL! DEAL!" during an in-game event. There's an expectation that (shock! horror!) some measure of monetary outlay will be necessary to be involved...but once that's done? You tend to not have to worry for awhile, unless you're involved in some specific elements of the game.

**Tycho**

PenitentJake wrote:
Tycho wrote:

That doesn't make much sense. At all. TOs could easily say "You can't use pages x-xx". Literally no different than saying "you can't use X supplement". If you showed up to an event trying to use your Crusade rules, they wouldn't say "Welp .... it's in the codex! Have to use it now!" A lot of this is likely to be material that has been held back from the 'dexe's of certain armies. Armies of Reknown is fine in the campaign book imo, but the handful of pages for the Traitor Legions should absolutely be in the codex. There's no reason not to. I am fine with the DLC label honestly. It applied pretty well to the first one. Maybe the second one will be different, but I'm not seeing any indication of that.

So first off, we don't know what the chaos legion content will be. I think a lot of folks are worried that it will be essential content, and I believe this is a very valid concern. Legions didn't get as much content in the 8th dex as they should have, which made the PA content pretty much necessary. The same is true for a lot of armies, actually- their dexes were lean and weak compared to Marines 2.0 that they NEEDED the PA content to keep up. That was a huge mistake on GW's part, and it left a scar.

I hope that once all the books are on the table, the CSM dex will be good enough to play any legion without supplemental material. I suspect it's what GW was aiming for, though as we know, they don't always hit the mark. If the content for the Legions in the BoF does turn out to be essential once the 9th dex drops, you won't get any argument out of me- I'll absolutely agree it should have been in the dex. But for all we know, it's going to be an Army of Renown for each Legion, and if so, that's hardly MUST HAVE content.

I think that the BoR did a fairly good job at being optional- certainly it did a better job of it than most of the PA books. I'm very much hoping that the BoF manages the same, but it's a taller order since the 9th Chaos dex isn't out yet; that fact alone will make it SEEM necessary, whether it is or not.

But excluding a book IS easier than excluding parts of the dex- the caveat being "Ways to Play info" which was designed to be excluded by virtue of choosing one of the ways to play. Any tournament is going to tell you whether it's Matched or Crusade, with Matched being the obvious default. But if I told you I was excluding pages xx-xx from the SM dex, you'd actually have to look it up to see what's excluded. If I say "No Campaign books," you don't need to look anything up. We do this in D&D ALL the time. It's super easy to tell someone not to use a book.

If you exclude only certain pages, you're far more likely to end up with a 60 page Dakka thread arguing that some of the rules that weren't forbidden are worse than some that were. Excluding a campaign book comes with several built in excuses for not using it- from the practical (Because we didn't want our players to have to buy an extra book) to the fluffy (This tournament does not take place in the Charadon Sector during the era in question).

That is literally no different than saying "You cannot use the Legion rules from the CSM codex". It's exactly the same thing. Besides, I think the argument that it would cause balance issues is spurious at best, and if you're not going to do something because "it will cause an argument on Dakka" well, then, best to pack it up now and not do ANYTHING. lol

I would be with you if we were talking about ban saying "You cannot use the third page, second paragraph, third sentence from the wargear section" but that's not at all what this is, so saying they put it "here" to make it easier on TOs .... just no. Talk to ANY TO. Never in my life have I heard a TO say "Oh yeah! They scattered the rules across a bunch of different books, and now my life is so much easier!"

I agree with you that they did a decent enough job of keeping the first Charadon book to a level where it really is an "optional" buy (to me it is STILL not a true campaign book, but it's a lot closer than PA was lol), but their history when it comes to CSM is less than positive. Hopefully, it just ports the Legions to 9th so that they can be better used until the codex comes out. IF that's the case, then fine. If it turns out to be anything other than that ....

**Pickled_egg**

Kanluwen wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:

When they release the Drukhari codex and then a week later Book of Rust 1 with a must have Cult of Strife detachment its cynical DLC, simple as that. You can't defend that.
It looks like they are doing the same with sisters.

First of all, do you know what the initial release dates were planned to be?

I'm going to guess "No".

Personally I'd be fine with the Book of Rust series if it served as a bridge to balance factions that they know aren't getting a codex for a while OR kept it to non matched play formations/rules only.

That's not what this is though. We don't have "formations" anymore, by the by. That was two editions ago.

The literal, whole point of this series is not to "serve as a bridge to balance factions". It's to highlight specific warzones. End of story. Some of the content is generic(Mechanicus Defense Force) while some of it is specific(Cult of Strife and Metalica rules) to groups engaged in that area.

Don't like it? Don't buy it.

It's the DLC following hot on the heels of codexes which is a joke.

Frankly, the joke is all the whining over these things. OH NOES THEY RELEASED A BOOK BEFORE/AROUND ANOTHER BOOK! The gall! Those blackguards!

In the real world, people should know that books have been delayed thanks to covid and the general screwed nature of worldwide shipping. We also know that there's several more warzones to come.

I could easily turn your argument around though and say that you don't know what the release dates were supposed to be either and that it may have been "working as intended" to release Book of Rust the week after the Drukhari codex. But then I'd be arguing in bad faith like you are.

As for "Covid did it" that's not valid either.

The fact is if you are a Drukhari player who appreciates the competitive aspect of the game you needed to Buy Book of rust for 3-4 pages of rules. Please don't insult my intelligence and expect me to believe that the most competitive Cult option being hidden away in a DLC supplement is just a co-incidence and not a calculated move by GW to drive sales. And don't come back with the "Well don't buy it then" because if you played tournaments you would know you need a physical copy for most TO's and even if I attended a tournament where it wasn't required I would feel like it was a dick move not to have a physical copy for my opponent to read if we had a rules debate.

Its not acceptable that Drukhari players had to pay £50 instead of £25 to play the faction in a competitive format.

And now sisters players are coming in for the same treatment and its cynical and wrong.

Also when it comes to your "don't buy it then" argument, that's totally fine and that's exactly what I did when Plague purge and beyond the veil came out as crusade doesn't interest me and that works fine IF they keep the narrative and matched play books separate. But I would still defend any players in the community be they narrative/crusade, apoc or competitive players, nobody deserves to be gouged.

**Arachnofiend**

Odds on the new campaign book referencing CSM stuff that doesn't exist yet? It's not outside the realm of possibility that this book was written after the CSM codex with all of the shipping issues, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the new content is built around 2-wound CSM or other potential changes in the codex.

**Kanluwen**

Arachnofiend wrote:
Odds on the new campaign book referencing CSM stuff that doesn't exist yet? It's not outside the realm of possibility that this book was written after the CSM codex with all of the shipping issues, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the new content is built around 2-wound CSM or other potential changes in the codex.

Higher than average odds, but it might not be specific units named out but rather wargear options that aren't available yet or Stratagems that don't exist yet.

If it contains World Eaters+Children though, that kills them as their own codices in 9E.

**BrianDavion**

PenitentJake wrote:
I think it's likely that some of this material will be lifted from the PA book; if this doesn't make the PA obsolete, the dex will, so it's coming soon.

I couldn't tell from today's Warcom article if the Order of Our Martyred Lady stuff is a supplement (like Cult of Strife) or an Army of Renown with Vahl.

Either way, I wish they'd give one of the other orders some attention; OoOML get EVERYTHING.

my guess is it'll indeed be the F&F stuff as well as the vigilius stuff, (remember black Legions rules where in another book). and BOTH these books are out of print and unavaliable. and it's not like CSMs would be the only army using supplement info from 8th edition. they';d be sharing that with the non-snowflake marine chapters

**PenitentJake**

Pickled_egg wrote:

The fact is if you are a Drukhari player who appreciates the competitive aspect of the game you needed to Buy Book of rust for 3-4 pages of rules. Please don't insult my intelligence and expect me to believe that the most competitive Cult option being hidden away in a DLC supplement is just a co-incidence and not a calculated move by GW to drive sales. And don't come back with the "Well don't buy it then" because if you played tournaments you would know you need a physical copy for most TO's and even if I attended a tournament where it wasn't required I would feel like it was a dick move not to have a physical copy for my opponent to read if we had a rules debate.

Its not acceptable that Drukhari players had to pay £50 instead of £25 to play the faction in a competitive format.

And now sisters players are coming in for the same treatment and its cynical and wrong.

So I'm not a competitive minded guy- you may have some knowledge that I don't. But thinking back to the 60 page thread, I do remember many folks saying that with the one exception of a bonkers rules interaction with chain flails which eventually got FAQed, the CoS content in the BoR wasn't really all that game changing. In that thread, there were some people who ran huge analytics on the tourney winning lists, and they found that the list didn't actually make use of a lot of the stuff that people in the thread were complaining about. It's been a while, so I'm a bit rusty, and like I said, I'm not a competitive minded player myself.

The only sisters players who are going to want this are OoOML players, and right now Bloody Rose, Argent Shroud and Valorous Heart are far more likely to be played, despite GW's attempt to make OoOML THE poster sub-faction by giving them all the special characters.

**Sasori**

I'm pretty excited book 2. I've had my Bel'akor model ready to go for a while now. I'm assuming the Mortal Followers means CSM.

I had speculated before that the CSM book was going to have to come with some kind of supplement to fit all the Faith and fury stuff, and it looks like it's going to be the Charadon book.

Much more excited for this one than I was for the first one, that's for sure.

**H.B.M.C.**

Kanluwen wrote:
Or there's the other irritating factor of "BUT WHY WASN'T IT IN THE BOOK!!!!"...because they didn't have it for everyone, so they left it out. People whined about the SM supplement book format, they whined about the PA format, they whined about the Vigilus format. There's literally no winning for them, so they've picked a method and run with it.

Typical bad faith argument again, Kan.

People didn't like the rules in Charadon Book 1 because of the "Day-1 DLC" factor to it, the idea that books that had just come out suddenly had extra rules.

**Gert**

Kanluwen wrote:

Higher than average odds, but it might not be specific units named out but rather wargear options that aren't available yet or Stratagems that don't exist yet.

If it contains World Eaters+Children though, that kills them as their own codices in 9E.

I think people have been overhyping WE and EC to the point where loads of other people seem to think it's a given since Tsons and DG got theirs.

**H.B.M.C.**

Gert wrote:
I think people have been overhyping WE and EC to the point where loads of other people seem to think it's a given since Tsons and DG got theirs.

You call it 'overhyping'. Some of us call it 'hope'. Maybe that's foolish?

**Arachnofiend**

Gert wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

Higher than average odds, but it might not be specific units named out but rather wargear options that aren't available yet or Stratagems that don't exist yet.

If it contains World Eaters+Children though, that kills them as their own codices in 9E.

I think people have been overhyping WE and EC to the point where loads of other people seem to think it's a given since Tsons and DG got theirs.

WE/EC have no reason to restrict their army rosters so it's a lot harder to justify them than DG/TS I think. Doubt many people want more Dark Angels-type books.

**Kanluwen**

Arachnofiend wrote:
Gert wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

Higher than average odds, but it might not be specific units named out but rather wargear options that aren't available yet or Stratagems that don't exist yet.

If it contains World Eaters+Children though, that kills them as their own codices in 9E.

I think people have been overhyping WE and EC to the point where loads of other people seem to think it's a given since Tsons and DG got theirs.

WE/EC have no reason to restrict their army rosters so it's a lot harder to justify them than DG/TS I think. Doubt many people want more Dark Angels-type books.

World Eaters are harder to do, period, being a "Shattered Legion" effectively in the current timeline. Khorne Daemonkin seemed like a good prototype but was abandoned unfortunately.

**Gert**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
You call it 'overhyping'. Some of us call it 'hope'. Maybe that's foolish?

Nah, see I would hope to see the two remaining God Legions expanded upon much like their AoS counterparts but I'm struggling to think of things that wouldn't just make them poorer versions of either CSM or DG/Tsons.
Updated Zerker and Noise Marine kits would be nice sure but what then? Boring copy-pastes of 30k units like Phoenix Guard and Red Butchers? Tsons have the different Legion Cults to draw on and the DG have each sub-faction get its own special plague. The only thing I could think of is maybe making the WE Codex similar to Khorne Daemonkin.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

World Eaters are harder to do, period, being a "Shattered Legion" effectively in the current timeline. Khorne Daemonkin seemed like a good prototype but was abandoned unfortunately.

KDK were an amazingly fun Codex to play, dying helped you, and killing helped you as well, Khorne to a T, or K as it was.

**BrianDavion**

If I was going to design a World Eaters codex here's how I'd do it.

1: remove a handfull of CSM units that don't make sense for world eaters.

these would include:
- Sorcerers (duh)
-Lord Discordants (I just don't see the world eaters as being very techy and more likely to "contract that out")
-Master Of posession
- Rubric Marines, Plague Marines and Noise Marines
-Venom Crawlers (given these are pretty much designed to work alongside masters of posession I'd just not include em)
-Chaos Space Marines (while the world eaters would have access to shooty through chosen and Havocs, I think their TROOPS should be bezerkers)
- Raptors and Warp Talons (read on before you protest)
-Maulerfiends and forgefiends
- Chaos Terminators
- Predators (yet again wait before you comment)
- Dark Apostles.

Ok, so following this.. what would I ADD.

1st: A Bezerker style Terminator. I'd model them in Taratos style armor and make them pure Melee but make them a bit faster then standard termies.
2nd: - A Bezerker Jump Troop. I'd proably model this as a combi between bezerkers and the vanguard veterns. lots of power weapon options, chain axes as standard.
3rd - some new deamon engines, maybe a small dreadnought sized lord of skulls thing.
4th - I'm thinking a predator but one that has shorter ranges on it's guns and trades the sponsons in for troop capacity, BAAAASICLY a chaos razorback (excepgt with some fun chaosy tricks)
5th - the inevitable cultist variation
6th - Some sort of replacement for the dark apostle. similer idea but with some fun and intreasting rules.

**Eldenfirefly**

I think they are not quite sure what to do with CSM honestly. DG was different. It has a focused theme that works. Being very resilient, killy in combat, but gives up speed as a result. So, slow but hard to kill is DG's theme.

Everything else in CSM seems to be a challenge to implement, especially since its all meshed into one codex. They simply don't dare to make any one single aspect too good, because when mixed in with every else the codex has, that might tip it into OP territory.

So, for example. They don't dare to make shooting too good for CSM, even if its Emperors Children, because lots of CSM units can fight well even with their base stats, They also don't dare to make melee too good for CSM, even it its just World Eaters, because again lots of units in CSM can shoot well even with their base stats too.

So end up, CSM just gets all the situational fluffy stuff while staying relatively mediocre.

I would end up buying the Charadon book of fire anyway in the end. I love to read about the stories and campaigns and stuff like that. And if they have stuff that will make my CSM interesting in thematic ways, I am all for it.

**Marshal Loss**

RE: EC, I'd happily put up with another edition in the mainstream CSM book if they actually gave us new Noise Marines when the damn codex arrives. Anybody thinking that WE + EC don't possess as much potential as DG/TS for their own book is nuts though. Each of the cult legions deserves it.

Just expecting this to be F&F + Vigilus Ablaze (minus specialist detachments) updated for 9th. No second wound etc.

**BrianDavion**

Marshal Loss wrote:
RE: EC, I'd happily put up with another edition in the mainstream CSM book if they actually gave us new Noise Marines when the damn codex arrives. Anybody thinking that WE + EC don't possess as much potential as DG/TS for their own book is nuts though. Each of the cult legions deserves it.

Just expecting this to be F&F + Vigilus Ablaze (minus specialist detachments) updated for 9th. No second wound etc.

the second wound'll arrive with the codex. I expect that GW'll go through the old F&F stuff etc and the only changes will be future proofing it.

**Marshal Loss**

Obviously. GW outright told us that the second wound would come with the codex, thus why I said I wasn't expecting it. The real question is whether the codex was intended to be out by now, but we'll probably know that soon enough

**PenitentJake**

If so, that likely means we'll get it in September.

**Andilus Greatsword**

PenitentJake wrote:
The only sisters players who are going to want this are OoOML players, and right now Bloody Rose, Argent Shroud and Valorous Heart are far more likely to be played, despite GW's attempt to make OoOML THE poster sub-faction by giving them all the special characters.

Exactly this. I play OoOML because that's what my Sisters force is and their order rules are "good enough" that I'll accept not playing the optimal orders. A potential, reasonable bump from Charadon is actually exciting to me (if only because, lol, I'm not actually going to pay for the whole book).

**BrianDavion**

I would have liked to see some sort of "frateritus militant" army list. a combo sisters/guard force basicly

**Racerguy180**

I use Junith all the time in my Bloody Rose. She's just not Junith but the Lamenth of St Mina.

Absolutely zero chance I'll switch orders just to have bestest.

**ERJAK**

Racerguy180 wrote:
I use Junith all the time in my Bloody Rose. She's just not Junith but the Lamenth of St Mina.

Absolutely zero chance I'll switch orders just to have bestest.

I mean, if you're already making up rules wholesale why would ANY rule matter to you? Why do you even have the codex? You could just declare OoML makes all attacks do D3+3 mortal wounds on a 2+ and be done with it.

**JNAProductions**

ERJAK wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
I use Junith all the time in my Bloody Rose. She's just not Junith but the Lamenth of St Mina.

Absolutely zero chance I'll switch orders just to have bestest.

I mean, if you're already making up rules wholesale why would ANY rule matter to you? Why do you even have the codex? You could just declare OoML makes all attacks do D3+3 mortal wounds on a 2+ and be done with it.

I'm pretty sure they're using Junith's rules, just with their BR army.

And, moreover, the world is not binary. It's possible to say "I hate how CSM have only one wound still-mind if I pop them up 3 points and give them a second wound?" without ignoring every single rule.

**Racerguy180**

I do care about rules and zero players have had any issue with it. Pay the points, no problem. I just care less about GW's asinine reasoning

But there is only official or not....apparently.

**Karol**

Kanluwen wrote:

First of all, do you know what the initial release dates were planned to be?

I'm going to guess "No".

We actually know that very well. There was a poster showing DG coming up in december, but before that month came, GW said they are having delays of some sort and that stuff is going to be pushed back. And we also know that DE were suppose to come out after DG.

**Seabass**

I had no idea we were getting new stuff for the CSM legions, and I was already going to buy the book for Be'lakor, so this is a pretty sweet bonus for me.

I'm not real big on the theme forces they release in the books, but you don't have to have them. I'm pretty confident that Drukhari players can win without the additional rules for the cult of strife, and i don't think anyone in matched play cares about the armies of renowned armies for admech and typhus so far.

Obviously, that can change, but I think the idea of it being a "required supplement" may be a bit overspoken, save for maybe if you have and want to use Be'lakor.

**Karol**

I have not seen a DE army without a strife succubus since the book came out.