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How does the guy behind the other guy swing at you without getting close enough to be confused too? Does he have magic elasto arms that can stretch out an additional 10 feet? That rule is meant to simulate the constantly changing positions of melee combatants, not stretchy arms. If the model's getting in close enough to hit the person with the relic, it should be getting just as confused as anyone else. And it is really bizarre if they actually intended to create a mechanic that encourages you to keep your models out of Engagement Range of the model they want to attack. Anything is possible I guess, but it'd be a really weird choice that doesn't make any sense.

I suspect the armor is working as intended weird though it may be, simply because if it worked on everything attacking you rather than just the closest models then there'd be no reason to say models instead of units.

Well it has to reference models in one way or another, or else a unit could allocate the half of its attacks that were next to the bearer to the bearer, and the other half of its attacks from models that were somewhere else somewhere else, and the relic would have no impact.

But why it doesn't just say something like "each time an enemy model allocates close combat attacks, it can only allocate up to half of its attacks against this model," I don't know.

yukishiro1 wrote:
How does the guy behind the other guy swing at you without getting close enough to be confused too?

With a halabard or another pole weapon?

yukishiro1 wrote:
How does the guy behind the other guy swing at you without getting close enough to be confused too? Does he have magic elasto arms that can stretch out an additional 10 feet? That rule is meant to simulate the constantly changing positions of melee combatants, not stretchy arms. If the model's getting in close enough to hit the person with the relic, it should be getting just as confused as anyone else. And it is really bizarre if they actually intended to create a mechanic that encourages you to keep your models out of Engagement Range of the model they want to attack. Anything is possible I guess, but it'd be a really weird choice that doesn't make any sense.

Well, it just comes down to how you visualize combatants fighting. To me it's like someone shining a flashlight in your face and then your buddy comes out from behind and swings with his bat before the light blinds him.

If there are fewer models in engagement range then there will be fewer models in melee, too. So it is a bit of a win-win. If you have a large base and you can run in and tie up most of the unit then all the better - or go the opposite direction and make them walk to you as much as possible.

 Irbis wrote:

 Nerak wrote:
Whilst not game breaking I am bothered that the starting box includes a special character. That’s never been done before right? GW couldn’t say “your dudes don’t matter” any louder if they tried.

Because it's literally impossible to swap Crowe's sword and banner to generic ones and just use him as champion, eh?

Ditto with Ahriman (sorc on disc), Artemis (DW captain), Lelith (succubus), Typhus (doubly so because Terminator Lord with scythe model was unavailable for a year), converting any of them to generic character with plentiful spare parts all these armies have takes minutes if you're inclined to do so...

In fact I did exactly that. There is no grey knight champion model. You have to either convert Crowe or kitbash a regular non terminator GK. Surely you must see the issue in literally having to buy a special character to use a generic commander. I’d like an apology for this one. It was a bad statement on your part.

Not even having an official model and instead "forcing" you to kitbash or convert one of your own couldn't say "your dudes matter" any louder if GW tried, don't you think?

At least it is cheaper. Imagine if having to buy a separate GM, brother captin, librarian, apothecary and an Ancient. each one for 35$, or more if you decide to use a Draigo or Voldus, instead of one box of termintors.

Looking thru the Tsons codex, I'd hesitantly say....none? I think?

There's some really off-the-wall nerfs in there, though. GW really really came for the tzaangors despite them not being any good at all in AGES...they also...nerfed the GEQ shotgun that the cultist champion uses?

Like just why? What a bizarre thing to bother changing? They made it Assault 2 18" range S3, with no 'within half range +1s" rule.

It's funny, I was expecting the most errors to come from the psyker heavy books, but yeah, a lot of weird nerfs on both sides. I hate to sound conspiracyish here, but is GW trying to move their old NDK models or something? They might be the best model in the GK arsenal now for the cost. With the buffs to attacks, the sword variant is swinging some ugly pain there if properly buffed by hammerhand and such.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's funny, I was expecting the most errors to come from the psyker heavy books, but yeah, a lot of weird nerfs on both sides. I hate to sound conspiracyish here, but is GW trying to move their old NDK models or something? They might be the best model in the GK arsenal now for the cost. With the buffs to attacks, the sword variant is swinging some ugly pain there if properly buffed by hammerhand and such.

OH MAN do I get to tack another pin into the grand GWspiracy? Is a model being good in a previous edition of a codex, and then still being the best thing in the new edition of a codex now also equal evidence of the grand GWspiracy as a model being good in a previous edition and bad in the new edition???

Gw's playing both sides so they always come out on top.

 the_scotsman wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's funny, I was expecting the most errors to come from the psyker heavy books, but yeah, a lot of weird nerfs on both sides. I hate to sound conspiracyish here, but is GW trying to move their old NDK models or something? They might be the best model in the GK arsenal now for the cost. With the buffs to attacks, the sword variant is swinging some ugly pain there if properly buffed by hammerhand and such.

OH MAN do I get to tack another pin into the grand GWspiracy? Is a model being good in a previous edition of a codex, and then still being the best thing in the new edition of a codex now also equal evidence of the grand GWspiracy as a model being good in a previous edition and bad in the new edition???

Gw's playing both sides so they always come out on top.

To be fair, I did preface it in fear!

That being said, it was "GOOD" before the drop, now at it's new cost which I believe is 20 points down? It's possibly the best unit in their dex. It's basically to GK what the Telemon is to Custodes. Which is saying something as agian, it's under 200 for a sword, a gatling, and a cannon. Oh and didn't the invuln go down to 4++? That is a lot for a under 200pt unit.

Old unit strong in new dex: "GW is trying to push the old models to empty shelfspace"
New unit strong in new dex: "GW always overpowers new units to sell new models"
And always: GW will overpower them so yall buy it and then nerf them to death. And all with malice.

Well it is hard to over power new models, when they are one character only scalpers or whales manged to get their hands on.

But the NDK was good, and now it got better. It is a bit like 8th, with GK strike and NDKs being better options then other stuff, the mid edition CA comes out, hailed by GW as fix to everything, which will make GK players use paladins and purifires, and all it ended up to be was make NDKs even better. Still better a codex with a buff here and there, then a codex with no buffs at all. The book would be awesome if it came out in 8th ed .

 the_scotsman wrote:
Looking thru the Tsons codex, I'd hesitantly say....none? I think?

There's some really off-the-wall nerfs in there, though. GW really really came for the tzaangors despite them not being any good at all in AGES...they also...nerfed the GEQ shotgun that the cultist champion uses?

Like just why? What a bizarre thing to bother changing? They made it Assault 2 18" range S3, with no 'within half range +1s" rule.

Meh on the shotgun. I don't think I'd ever remember that and it fits in with the autoguns better now.

Mostly agree on Tzaangors. Though comparing to Boyz - one less attack, one less toughness, but 5++. +1 to charge vs reroll charge. No Waagh, but Shaman for a +1 to hit. Maybe +1S if you wanted to bother ( not likely ).

They're "OK". Good objective units in any case.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Well it is hard to over power new models, when they are one character only scalpers or whales manged to get their hands on.

But the NDK was good, and now it got better. It is a bit like 8th, with GK strike and NDKs being better options then other stuff, the mid edition CA comes out, hailed by GW as fix to everything, which will make GK players use paladins and purifires, and all it ended up to be was make NDKs even better. Still better a codex with a buff here and there, then a codex with no buffs at all. The book would be awesome if it came out in 8th ed .

Not sure why it would be hard to over power a model regardless of who gets their hands on it.

It's a damn good book.

Re-teleporting NDKs.
Good anti-alpha protection with Shadows.
Draigo is a monster and Voldus isn't far off.
Brother-Captain gives reroll 1s to wound and can give a +1 to cast bubble.
Move-shoot-move Interceptors.
Bananas amount of force weapon attacks.

Not sure why it would be hard to over power a model regardless of who gets their hands on it.

It all depends how many units of the hex box they made right? If 1ksons and GK become the best armies out there. And both the new sorc and the Crow, become an auto take like Drazh was for DE, then there could be problems if GW made 3k boxs and shiped most to US and left the rest for UK. This is hardly a new or special thing. And unlike with some limited runs, like the indomitus one, there wouldn't just be a regional problem. If all there is , pre recasters, is 3k Crows and the new 1ksons not chaplains, then it would not be enough for all.

It's a damn good book.

It nerfed termintors and paladins, and forced people to run NDKs instead of regular infantry characters. Maybe people that like strikes like the book, great for them. I don't like 42pts termintors, when strikes give 1 extra wound and double the shoting, wounds and melee attacks at 2/3 the point costs.

Keep in mind the Tzaangor 5++ is their chapter tactic (a good one). So remember to add a good chapter tactic to an Ork Boy or DE Witch when comparing.

Basic foot Tzaangor are also WS4.

All the Tzaangor do look slightly overpriced and I think it is that they are paying points for their chapter tactic which is normally free in most armies.

An Iron Hands Vindicator and a TSons Vindicator are the same points, and now they actually both have a chapter tactic it feels a reasonable comparison between the two.

Both models can be easily kitbashed or proxied by a Strike and Rubric / Sorcerer Marine respectively. The old Crowe is even still available to order from GW.

It is a made up problem in a made up situation.

Yeah, Tzaangors got done dirty for no apparent reason. Hard to understand why in an edition where in general they've been buffing all the cheap stock infantry they decided that Tzaangors should instead get a big fat nerf to the face.

EightFoldPath wrote:
Keep in mind the Tzaangor 5++ is their chapter tactic (a good one). So remember to add a good chapter tactic to an Ork Boy or DE Witch when comparing.

Basic foot Tzaangor are also WS4.

All the Tzaangor do look slightly overpriced and I think it is that they are paying points for their chapter tactic which is normally free in most armies.

An Iron Hands Vindicator and a TSons Vindicator are the same points, and now they actually both have a chapter tactic it feels a reasonable comparison between the two.

Right, but the thing is that Tzaangors always had 5++ and were WS3 and a shaman could get them to hit on 2s. They did go down from 9 to 7 points, but also lost a fight twice strat. Overall I don't particularly care - they're a fine unit. They just won't be crazy bombs like in early 8th.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Both models can be easily kitbashed or proxied by a Strike and Rubric / Sorcerer Marine respectively. The old Crowe is even still available to order from GW.

It is a made up problem in a made up situation.

It is also a no problem, because, at least on the GK side, neither Crow, nor the Champion isn't auto include. So missing him ain't a big problem. No idea about the 1ksons champlain, plus unlike Crow, he technically is going to be in that patrol box 1ksons will get. Although the box is very special with all those bird boys inside. The GK patrol box on the other hand is great. Termintors make all the HQs you will ever need plus support pices, NDK is great, and strikes are the best troop options.

Did I hear right that GK can only cast certain powers on themselves? Like AA and HH? Isn't that a nerf in and of itself? What is the point of taking Voldus now if he can only cast things on himself?

Sanctic powers now only work on the caster. Hammerhands, Astral Aim, and Armoured Resilience fall into this category. Each unit typically has a fixed loadout of these - e.g. Strikes can only take Hammerhand. Paladins get two of their choice, making that their gimmick.

Dominus powers can target anyone. So you can still Gate and Sanctuary other units. Characters can *only* take Dominus, they can't take Sanctic (aside from Crowe who knows one Dominus + Purifying Flame from Sanctic).

It's really weird that they were so restrictive with GK, especially since TSons got two trees of 9 that every psyker can just pick freely from.

So I guess again, what is the point of Voldus? If he can't be a buff bot, then he's basically an overcosted smiter/teleporter?

Well there's not much point to Voldus in the new book period, he went down to only 2 casts so he's just a crappy, budget version of Draigo that's worse literally in every way, for 30 points cheaper. He's also locked to a specific Brotherhood.

But Dominus has Gate and Sanctuary, so you can both teleport stuff and give them a 4+ invuln, plus a couple offensive powers as well. And Warp Shaping, though I'm not sure how much you're actually going to be wanting to change Tides now.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's really weird that they were so restrictive with GK, especially since TSons got two trees of 9 that every psyker can just pick freely from.

My thoughts on that :

- Every model is a caster
- Their melee in general is significantly stronger
- They can multi-cast brotherhood spells ( not sure how much this will happen )
- To force some measure of diversity in a line up with very similar units

Ok, so there are a couple broken things in the GK book after all. The Litany that makes every 6 to wound wound twice says it also does an additional MW if you're in the Tide that makes 6s to wound already do MWs. So for every 6 to wound, you're getting two MWs+2 wounding hits through. I think they forgot that this isn't AOS and you can get multiple benefits from an effect happening on a 6, I can't believe they really intended this, especially with how easy it is to get reroll wounds in the book. A strike squad of 10 can easily generate an average of upwards of 20+ MW with this - up to 35ish average with every single possible buff - in addition to another 50-70ish damage at AP-3. it's just silly.

Another broken Litany is the one that dispels any negative psychic powers and makes the unit immune to enemy psychic powers until your next command phase - for some reason, this one isn't restricted to GK only, you can cast it on literally anything. I really doubt it's intended, but this allows, e.x., a Telemon that is immune to psychic powers, which is pretty funny.

Also, and this may be broken or may just be weird, Librarians can take from both Dominus and Sanctic, which nothing else in the book can do, not even Voldus. This allows some weird psychic assassin nonsense where you can come down from DS then deal an average 9MW to the closest unit, or an average of 11MW if you spend another CP, and the potential for a lot more.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

My thoughts on that :

- Every model is a caster
- Their melee in general is significantly stronger
- They can multi-cast brotherhood spells ( not sure how much this will happen )
- To force some measure of diversity in a line up with very similar units

Only they were writen in a such a way that part of their rules never work. +1 to cast 1ksons have, for a magic army, is a rule that is always working. A 1ksons army will always cast spells. +1 to stoping someone from casting requires the opponent to field psykers. And why would they do that? Running no psykers means they get access to Abhore the Witch as secondary , get to ignore a large chunk of GK rule set and that is assuming they don't play something like ad mecha, SoB or tau who just don't have psykers. And this isn't even a lore thing. Because prior to this book GK, which is my blowing to write, the rules were better. GK had the +1 to cast powers just like 1ksons do now. And lore wise GK are not dispel bots, they are powerful psykers and magic casters in their own right. And I really don't see how GK rules are equal to any of the rules sets of the best books right now.

But maybe that was the plan we are a codex 5-6 months pushed back, maybe if we came out in december of january, they would feel like a better codex. Right now the GK book has a strong necron vibe to it. And that is assuming someone goes and rebrands to strikes. If someone wants to play a termintor army , then the new codex is a nerf. Which I thought was not possible to do.

I am also not sure how the rule set spawns diversity. It litterally made termintor stuff bad, and turned NDKS and strikes in to auto includes. Every GK army is going to be running those and a brother Cpt, just to get access to one stratagem. I get complicated armies with a ton of stacking rules. Not something for everyone, and they are not very fun to play against, specially the first few times. But if you are a not easy to use army, then you better have a one heck of a end result rulse wise for it. Because being a harder to play army, while not being more powerful then other armies is just bad design.

Worse any problems with the codex will go along side the same arguments thrown around in 8t. Wait for CA, wait for FAQ. Then followed by GW not fixing point costs outside of codex, meaning the army is stuck like this till 10th ed. I am going to laugh so hard, if the following books are in the DE,SoB or Ad Mecha style , instead of how the 1ksons/GK books look like.

I don't see this causing a rush to buy new lists, for either faction. Neither of these look to be approaching DE or Ad Mech levels of cheese. Meta Chasers will not be shifted by either of these.

I'm a little grumpy about the Infernal Fusilades nerf - going from double shoot to +1 shot seemed a little excessive.