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My first thought was Tau against Dark Eldar because these are the most insignificant factions in 40K. It's not that there weren't fights between them, but they're both pretty small as to not meet each other if they don't want to.
Most Space Marine chapters with their small number of 1000Marines could also be pretty restricted if GW didn't send them wherever the story needs them to go.

Infighting between Imperial factions, but also Tau and Eldar needs a bit more explanation than other Engagements. Anything has happened, but there's certainly a continuum of Orks fighting Orks which is probably the most common fight in all of 40K, followed by Daemons in the Warp, to Grey Knights vs Grey Knights, or infighting in a Craftworld, which seems like a stretch.

Have you read about the first interaction between the T'au and Drukhari? It's pretty cool.

Drukhari has pretty much reason to fight anyone. Be it a supplies and slaves, test subjects for covens or gladiators for wych arenas.

Probably IOM forces fight other IOM "deserters" as much as any other faction... The type of pseudo feudal and dogmatic logic of the IOM seems very prone to infigthing.

Morrslieb wrote:Drukhari has pretty much reason to fight anyone. Be it a supplies and slaves, test subjects for covens or gladiators for wych arenas.

Raiding from everyone? Sure. But engaging in a pitched battle, and actually *fighting*? It really shouldn't be a thing, and it's why I'm quite happy rationalising that most Dark Eldar excursions never have any meaningful combat (their fights might be the equivalent of 25PL versus 100PL battles, with them holding the overwhelming advantage).

Nearly every other faction has a place and time for a protracted fight, but the Aeldari factions (Eldar, Dark Eldar and Harlequins) should barely see protracted combat against a similar strength opponent at all, IMO.
(I will mention, I'm not an Aeldari fan, but just stating what I believe to be the case).

The only time you would see a huge force of Drukhari is if there was some kind of competition raid or there was a serious threat that needed ending, like in the Fabius Bile books.
Of course, a Realspace Raid Detachment in-game needs to have a detachment each of Kabal, Cult, and Covens so while overall there might be a large force, really it's three smaller ones coming together.
One thing to remember is that raids aren't the only reason Drukhari leave Commoragh. Archon's need to prove their strength or they get assassinated or have their Kabal wiped out. Succubi search for powerful combatants, most of which won't be found in the Arenas. A Haemounculus might need a very specific toxin or test subject with the only way to secure it being direct control of the operation.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Morrslieb wrote:Drukhari has pretty much reason to fight anyone. Be it a supplies and slaves, test subjects for covens or gladiators for wych arenas.

Raiding from everyone? Sure. But engaging in a pitched battle, and actually *fighting*? It really shouldn't be a thing, and it's why I'm quite happy rationalising that most Dark Eldar excursions never have any meaningful combat (their fights might be the equivalent of 25PL versus 100PL battles, with them holding the overwhelming advantage).

Nearly every other faction has a place and time for a protracted fight, but the Aeldari factions (Eldar, Dark Eldar and Harlequins) should barely see protracted combat against a similar strength opponent at all, IMO.
(I will mention, I'm not an Aeldari fan, but just stating what I believe to be the case).

This is also true of Space Marines of all flavours. The chief advantage of Space Marines is being able to use their immense strategic mobility to apply locally overwhelming force and bug out before the enemy reinforcements respond, and to be able to do this at an incredibly high sustained operational tempo.

Aeldari basically take that same advantage up a notch in mobility, although probably with less combat endurance.

The games played on the tabletop are supposed to represent the rare, crucial battles that rest on a knife edge for each side, that neither can avoid.

Well probably not only SM and dark Eldar, but also Tyranids or even Imperial Guards would love to engage only in fights in which they have a complete superiority due to speed, numbers, firepower or surprise...

... But since in WAR there is another side trying to actively defeat you this would only rarely happend... Things wont go according to plan most of the time.

There is a LOT of attritional combat in the 40k Galaxy... That is basically what we see in the main warzones like Cadia, Vigulus or Armageddon.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Infighting between Imperial factions, but also Tau and Eldar needs a bit more explanation than other Engagements. Anything has happened, but there's certainly a continuum of Orks fighting Orks which is probably the most common fight in all of 40K, followed by Daemons in the Warp, to Grey Knights vs Grey Knights, or infighting in a Craftworld, which seems like a stretch.

The Farsight Enclaves were spawned directly from Tau infighting. It happens more than you would expect.

The biggest thing people are missing is that the force of the same army might not even be that army.
Those Guardsman could be Heretics in disguise. It happens quite a lot.
Those T'au could be a massive illusion conjured by a Lord of Change or Farseer. Warp power can be tricksy like that.
What if they're all Lacrymoles? Ok maybe not that but you get the idea.

If we get quite specific with factions, Servants of the Abyss have no reason to be fighting anybody other than Adeptus Mechanicus, and maybe other Chaos factions.

 Flipsiders wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Infighting between Imperial factions, but also Tau and Eldar needs a bit more explanation than other Engagements. Anything has happened, but there's certainly a continuum of Orks fighting Orks which is probably the most common fight in all of 40K, followed by Daemons in the Warp, to Grey Knights vs Grey Knights, or infighting in a Craftworld, which seems like a stretch.

The Farsight Enclaves were spawned directly from Tau infighting. It happens more than you would expect.

I know that. There's also the 4th sphere killing their auxiliary troops. But these are exceptions, there are no "great Sept wars" that I know of, where you have Bor'kan and Vi'orla fighting each other, on the contrary, often Tau fleets are a mix of septs.
That's why I didn't say it's impossible, it's just not that common which is what the OP asked

Sister need to really think about why they're fighting...

...

...

...Other Sisters.

Do you know how many wars humanity has fought over religious differences and dogma? Taking two extremely zealous religious groups with loads of guns and different interpretations of the faith isn't going to end well.

A necron tomb world might also be a Orks full lush organic matter than the nids need to eat to fuel up on their way to another target

Farsight wasn't even really a civil war though, just after all this Ethereals were killed it was like "ya'know what, I'm not coming home"

Regarding Genestealer Cults, unless I missed something, GSC are just as much a threat to Aeldari, Tau, and the other xenos races as they are humans. I.E. GSC can establish broods and cults, etc. and reproduce through xenos biology just as well as they can through human biology. In the past there were even rules/fluff about Ork genestealer hybrids, though they are biologically a sub-par/less than ideal host organism and usually only infected as a last resort if no other host is available. Usually the brood/cult dies out due to the nature of Orkish society being generally aggressive and warlike, as well as the fact that the ork reproductive cycle relies on ork spores being released upon the orks death, which means that reproduction is slow.

Likewise there are examples of Aeldari cults in the fluff, but its noted that the relative stability and purity of the aeldari genome means that it usually takes many more cycles/generations for purestrains to arise compared to the 4 generation human cycle, meaning that Aeldari cults are usually less successful as there is more opportunity for them to be discovered and exterminated.

Only Necrons are really immune to hybridization AFAIK (and obviously also Tyranids). But really, theres an excuse for every faction to fight the cults, they simply show up to invade and/or conquer a planet with an active cult presence and the cult will fight back as a matter of survival. Even the Tyranids are a suitable enemy, the GSC discusses how the Tyranids turn upon the cultists the moment that a planets defenses have been overcome and major resistance to the Tyranid invasion has been defeated, with the hapless cultists attempting to fight or flee against their would-be messiahs. Theres also mention, IIRC, of "defective" cults/Patriarchs that have severed their link with the Hive Mind or achieved some degree of autonomy and recognize/understand that they will be consumed by the Tyranids, etc. who will fight against the Tyranid invasion or attempt to flee from it before it arrives in order to perpetuate itself.

 Gert wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
The Custodes are very few in number. It's likely they would "outsource" most work not directly involving the personal protection of the Emperor to other, more numerous factions. If they tried to go after everything that poses a threat to the Imperium in general, they would be spread even thinner than the Marines.

Few in number but they have the best weapons, equipment, and training of any soldier in the Imperium. A single unit of Custodes can literally change the course of a campaign.

I hear this a lot regarding both Marines and Custodes, and I'm not really buying the "they have super good equipment and training" argument as an explanation for how they make up for their dismal numbers. Oh, you have a boltgun, power armor and 200 years of battlefield experience? Good for you. Well, I have a surface-to-air missile, and I can shoot down your Thunderhawk gunship and kill you and a dozen guys just like you before a single one of you has even set foot on my planet.

In my opinion, the overwhelming majority of campaigns and wars happening all over the Imperium will never involve any Marines or Custodes. They have to pick their battles. "Oh, one system with 20 billion souls is under attack? I'm kinda busy right now, so call me again when there's an existential threat to the entire Imperium." The Marines' individual strength does not make up for their low numbers; it merely provides the hardened tip of the spear of the Imperium.

If there is ever an all-out war between the entire Astra Militarum and the entire Adeptus Astartes, the Astra Militarum will undoubtedly win.

 Gert wrote:
I would say for the Drukhari it's a cost/risk kind of deal. It would be really risky to attack a group of Astartes but the payoff if you could capture some would be massive.
You might lose half your Kabalites but with the profit made from the Astartes being sold to the Arenas or Covens, an Archon could double their Kabal.

Also, for the Drukhari, death is often just a time-out until a Haemonculus revives you. And the aforementioned slaves for the arena can more than pay for your resurrection.

.

-Guardsman- wrote:
I hear this a lot regarding both Marines and Custodes, and I'm not really buying the "they have super good equipment and training" argument as an explanation for how they make up for their dismal numbers. Oh, you have a boltgun, power armor and 200 years of battlefield experience? Good for you. Well, I have a surface-to-air missile, and I can shoot down your Thunderhawk gunship and kill you and a dozen guys just like you before a single one of you has even set foot on my planet.

For Astartes yeah, a lot of it is hyperbole but the Custodes are quite a different matter. Their standard form of Dreadnought is a Contemptor, a notoriously difficult pattern to maintain and create. Custodes weapons are gene-locked to each individual, meaning that even if you did kill one their weapons would be as much use as a lump of metal. Their armour is a work of art as well, Auramite is superior to Ceramite. That's not even including the almost divine nature they have when it comes to resisting Chaos.

In my opinion, the overwhelming majority of campaigns and wars happening all over the Imperium will never involve any Marines or Custodes. They have to pick their battles. "Oh, one system with 20 billion souls is under attack? I'm kinda busy right now, so call me again when there's an existential threat to the entire Imperium." The Marines' individual strength does not make up for their low numbers; it merely provides the hardened tip of the spear of the Imperium.

Thats actually true. The vast majority of conflicts are fought by the AM not the Astartes. Even the Mechanicus is more involved than they are.

If there is ever an all-out war between the entire Astra Militarum and the entire Adeptus Astartes, the Astra Militarum will undoubtedly win.

The Astra Militarum who can't leave the planets they're stationed on because of the separation between Militarum and Navy? Nah, the Astartes win purely because of their space ships.

 Gert wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
If there is ever an all-out war between the entire Astra Militarum and the entire Adeptus Astartes, the Astra Militarum will undoubtedly win.

The Astra Militarum who can't leave the planets they're stationed on because of the separation between Militarum and Navy? Nah, the Astartes win purely because of their space ships.

AM being unable to move without the AI, AI being unable to hold ground without the AM but combined having the numbers to overwhelm marines at an Imperium level is of course by design…

Yeah. The Navy and Militarum were split from the Imperial Army to prevent a rebellion from either being a serious threat, like how Militarum Regiments can't be mixes of armour and infantry.

 Gert wrote:
Yeah. The Navy and Militarum were split from the Imperial Army to prevent a rebellion from either being a serious threat, like how Militarum Regiments can't be mixes of armour and infantry.

Yes exactly. And for the same reason SM formations are small compared to AM/AI ones (and have separate CofC).

Because SM rebellions also need dealing with.

Though tbf the human forces would probably mostly be a pinning formation to hold them in place until loyal marines can rock up to knock them out.

Vatsetis wrote:
Well probably not only SM and dark Eldar, but also Tyranids or even Imperial Guards would love to engage only in fights in which they have a complete superiority due to speed, numbers, firepower or surprise...

... But since in WAR there is another side trying to actively defeat you this would only rarely happend... Things wont go according to plan most of the time.

There is a LOT of attritional combat in the 40k Galaxy... That is basically what we see in the main warzones like Cadia, Vigulus or Armageddon.

Obviously no one wants to fight fair, but the factions with excellent strategic mobility have the ability to dictate unfair fights most of the time. Dark Eldar, for example, are exceedingly rarely backed into a corner they can't escape from unless they are fighting other Eldar, or maybe Necrons. Imperial Guard, however, can be cornered relatively easily by most of the faster races, excepting rare formations of drop troops or scions, or the odd attached Imperial Navy transport squadron.

An Imperial Guard formation has very few tools to be able to limit the strategic mobility of an Ulthwe Black Guardian warhost bursting out of the Webway, so a fair fight will only happen if something important forces the Aeldari to commit to fighting a heavy concentration of Guardsmen. This is a rare scenario, but these kinds of rare, turning point battles are what we play on the tabletop as they are the spicy, fun situations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Guardsman- wrote:

 Gert wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
The Custodes are very few in number. It's likely they would "outsource" most work not directly involving the personal protection of the Emperor to other, more numerous factions. If they tried to go after everything that poses a threat to the Imperium in general, they would be spread even thinner than the Marines.

Few in number but they have the best weapons, equipment, and training of any soldier in the Imperium. A single unit of Custodes can literally change the course of a campaign.

I hear this a lot regarding both Marines and Custodes, and I'm not really buying the "they have super good equipment and training" argument as an explanation for how they make up for their dismal numbers. Oh, you have a boltgun, power armor and 200 years of battlefield experience? Good for you. Well, I have a surface-to-air missile, and I can shoot down your Thunderhawk gunship and kill you and a dozen guys just like you before a single one of you has even set foot on my planet.

In my opinion, the overwhelming majority of campaigns and wars happening all over the Imperium will never involve any Marines or Custodes. They have to pick their battles. "Oh, one system with 20 billion souls is under attack? I'm kinda busy right now, so call me again when there's an existential threat to the entire Imperium." The Marines' individual strength does not make up for their low numbers; it merely provides the hardened tip of the spear of the Imperium.

If there is ever an all-out war between the entire Astra Militarum and the entire Adeptus Astartes, the Astra Militarum will undoubtedly win.


.

Astartes are best viewed as a naval force specialising in orbital combat. Every Chapter with some intact fighting capacity has significant fleet assets rivaling a subsector Imperial Navy fleet, or even an entire Sector fleet in the case of some renowned or fleet-based Chapters. The ships are supposed to be specialised for orbital bombardment over ship-to-ship combat, but SM vessels are still very capable in the latter. This is the true strength of the Astartes.

The actual Marines are best viewed as a kind of highly specialised munition that excels in dismantling enemy defenses to allow greater orbital pressure to be applied by the fleet, IMO. That is where they are most impactful: when rapidly deploying from orbit, applying overwhelming force to a localised enemy hub (like a defence laser), retreating back to orbit, and then rapidly redeploying, repeated continously at an extremely high operational tempo that most soldiers could not maintain without exhaustion.

In short, Space Marines are orbital marines, and work best in that exact role.

It is unclear what naval assets any Custodes have, if any. They do have a lot of fancy toys, so who knows. The above applies far less to them though.

Lammia wrote:
Sister need to really think about why they're fighting...

...

...

...Other Sisters.

nah, "THEY'RE WORSHIPPING WRONG" is all you need

Any wargame setting worth its salt is peppered full of reasons for factions to interact. Perhaps it is because of situational and circumstantial accidents when they usually would have done better to avoid each other, but history shows that people will fight over anything, so why should the darkest of futures be any more reasonable?

Human history also prove that strange times make for strange bedfellows, with some exceptional intrigues, shifting allegiances and allies becoming enemies in short order to such a degree that fiction rarely comes close to anything as bonkers as what reality has to offer. Scratch the surface, think deeper and use your imagination, and there will often be weird reasons for factions to interact in spite of expectations.

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
Any wargame setting worth its salt is peppered full of reasons for factions to interact. Perhaps it is because of situational and circumstantial accidents when they usually would have done better to avoid each other, but history shows that people will fight over anything, so why should the darkest of futures be any more reasonable?

Human history also prove that strange times make for strange bedfellows, with some exceptional intrigues, shifting allegiances and allies becoming enemies in short order to such a degree that fiction rarely comes close to anything as bonkers as what reality has to offer. Scratch the surface, think deeper and use your imagination, and there will often be weird reasons for factions to interact in spite of expectations.

case in point, Japan had been close allies of the Brits only 20 years before WW2 broke out

Although it's notable that 20th century earth moved at a pace (both technologically and politically) that the 41st millenium Imperium would consider unimaginable.

TBH I'm not that bothered if there are some interactions that are totally illogical in the setting. I'm perfectly happy hand waving stuff like this when it comes to playing a game.