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2021/08/10 12:33:26
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: I dont think SoB can claim same strength as the Mechanicus arm. Holy order of warriors vs the guys who make the GOOD weaponry and produce super heavy and titan legions. And thats not counting the stuff the tech priests aren't hiding in case of a rainy day!
When I say Mechanicus, I specifically mean their combat forces such as the Skitarii and Legio Cybernetica. If we were talking about full organisations then the SoB would come under both the Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus. In an expanded view the SoB could also have Fraeteris Militia support, Knight Lances dedicated to the Faith, Inquisitors from the Ordo and at a push a Cardinal could even whip up enough religious fervour that an entire planet could volunteer to fight.
The Mechanicus might be in charge of producing the Imperiums arms and munitions but it doesn't use those Superheavies it makes though, does it?
And while the Titan Legions and Knight Houses might be allied or have ties to the Mechanicus but they are distinct forces of their own and are under no obligation to serve any Magos in a given situation (except the Fabricator General that is).
A Magos who dares risk weapons like an Ordinatus in anything but exceptional circumstances would also likely be branded a Heretek and executed.
My specific point in that post was to highlight that while the Militarum outstrips every other military organisation by the thousands, the SoB and Mechanicus fill the gaps we would expect Astartes to fill.
So something like:
Militarum > SoB/Mechanicus > Astartes/Knight Houses > Titan Legions/Custodes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/10 12:38:10
2021/08/10 12:38:13
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
Gert wrote: Because of there were 10 million or 100 million Astartes running around then the Imperium wouldn't have problems.
Don't equate game with background because it's not a good comparison and that's fine.
My dude, given the scale of the galaxy you could have a canon number of loyalist marines in excess of the real world current population of Earth and they'd still be super-rare elite spec ops spread far too thin and struggling to make an impact.
2021/08/10 12:49:15
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
Vatsetis wrote: Who Im I policing anyone just by giving my POV?
As I said many times, there is no need to double down on the most dumb elements of the setting. That just IMHO.
There is enough info in the setting to back up the view that astartes are not just tecno barbarians but rather fight in a proper military structure... And CSM must have some sort of large scale logistics or else they wont be able to wage war on a galactic scale.
Reducing the Heretic Astartes to below the level of organisation of orks, seems wrong.
Why does my view of the background so problematic for some people?
They do have a system of logistics. Imperial Armour 13 alone details 10 Hellforges, 11 if you count the Forge of Souls (a Hellforge run by daemons instead of the Dark Magi of the Dark Mechanicum). They produce everything from Thunderhawks to super heavy tanks, to Rhinos and Predators, to daemon engines. But I can't find any reference to them producing power armour on any large scale. This coupled with the typical depictions of Heretic Astartes as using ancient marks of power armour that are constantly repaired with scavenged parts seems to show that its a bit difficult to produce. Even loyalists are depicted as handing down the suits from marine to marine, and willing to fight full scale conflicts to recover the even more rare Terminator suits on occasion. So that's a limiting factor.
.
I feel obliged to note that a system of logistics is more then JUST "they have forge worlds" logistics also includes the distribution system of getting those supplies out. and over all I think a lot of warbands lack that, the impression I get is all but the largest warbands needs to show up at those forge worlds and bargin for their supplies, and that kind of enviroment can lead to a feast or famine situation for a warband. I bet there are more then a few warbands out there that have become virtual slaves to a forge world due to a series of military defeats forcing them to take on more and more debt (.... intreasting idea for a combined chaos marine/dark mech army if we ever get a dark mech codex)
Actually, barter seems to be the standard method for procuring material from the Dark Mechanicum:
The form the cost takes varies, but it is not uncommon for the Dark Magi to demand tribute in the form of captives to be fed into the insatiable fires of the soul-forges, sanctified relics of the Imperial Creed to be ritually and brutally defiled, or exotic or esoteric raw materials not easily accessible to them. Alternatively, they might require aid that only the Chaos Space Marines can render, such as the capture of a particular foe, the binding of a Daemon they intend to force into a Daemon Engine or the destruction of a rival faction within the Dark Mechanicus.
Imperial Armour 13: Warmachines of the Lost and The Damned, page 16
So it sounds like the Dark Mechanicum sets its price, be it material or services, and they provide their services or material on payment, or a particular warband shows up with what they have and barter with it in a "This is what we have, what will you trade for it?" approach. You seem to be suggesting that some warbands get some kind of preferential treatment, and don't need to barter. What evidence have you seen of that? Any particular rulebook or novel?
2021/08/10 13:16:35
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
Gert wrote: Because of there were 10 million or 100 million Astartes running around then the Imperium wouldn't have problems.
Don't equate game with background because it's not a good comparison and that's fine.
My dude, given the scale of the galaxy you could have a canon number of loyalist marines in excess of the real world current population of Earth and they'd still be super-rare elite spec ops spread far too thin and struggling to make an impact.
At the same time conveying the sheer size of the Galaxy to most people is very difficult. It's so huge its vastly removed from most peoples experiences to even imagine or fathom. The numbers get so big they leave all point of general reference.
Having only 1000 Astartes per chapter is a number people can work with; if you then say the Imperium measures in the billions and such people - even if they don't deal with billions, can envision and work out how rare the Astartes is quite easily. It's simple math and simple concepts that conveys the point.
If you said there were 10 billion Astartes suddenly that's a BIG number. Even though spread out over the Galaxy its a tiny number, it feels and looks like a big number to the casual (and even keen) fan.
Part of story telling is getting facts right, but another is creating a story people can imagine and get their head around. Stories, and even films and TV, exist within a fictional construct setting that often uses fake things that convey a point or idea more than they aim to be true.
Eg when characters in a film "look through binoculars" we get that cut away "binocular" effect with two joined hoops of vision. Even though we know that if you actually look through binoculars you get a single circle of vision. Yet if we were to see that in a film we'd assume they were looking through a spyglass/telescope.
It's fake and wrong, but it conveys a point that's quickly understandable and relatable.
Gert wrote: Because of there were 10 million or 100 million Astartes running around then the Imperium wouldn't have problems.
Don't equate game with background because it's not a good comparison and that's fine.
My dude, given the scale of the galaxy you could have a canon number of loyalist marines in excess of the real world current population of Earth and they'd still be super-rare elite spec ops spread far too thin and struggling to make an impact.
At the same time conveying the sheer size of the Galaxy to most people is very difficult. It's so huge its vastly removed from most peoples experiences to even imagine or fathom. The numbers get so big they leave all point of general reference.
Having only 1000 Astartes per chapter is a number people can work with; if you then say the Imperium measures in the billions and such people - even if they don't deal with billions, can envision and work out how rare the Astartes is quite easily. It's simple math and simple concepts that conveys the point.
If you said there were 10 billion Astartes suddenly that's a BIG number. Even though spread out over the Galaxy its a tiny number, it feels and looks like a big number to the casual (and even keen) fan.
Part of story telling is getting facts right, but another is creating a story people can imagine and get their head around. Stories, and even films and TV, exist within a fictional construct setting that often uses fake things that convey a point or idea more than they aim to be true.
Eg when characters in a film "look through binoculars" we get that cut away "binocular" effect with two joined hoops of vision. Even though we know that if you actually look through binoculars you get a single circle of vision. Yet if we were to see that in a film we'd assume they were looking through a spyglass/telescope.
It's fake and wrong, but it conveys a point that's quickly understandable and relatable.
Nah, I'm pretty sure it's just incompetence of scale, they feth up everywhere on this stuff.
If you explain there's something like 10 billion marines and uncountable guardsmen estimated to be in the quadrillions, that if anything sells how hopelessly vast and unmanageable the imperium really is. And it avoids the issue this thread comes to where roughly 1 million chaos marines stands zero chance of victory and needs floods of daemons and improbable galaxy-halving warp rifts to seem like a galactic threat instead of "Absolutely terrifying if their crusade hits your system but a pest control problem for the imperium at large".
2021/08/10 14:22:57
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
Gert wrote: Because of there were 10 million or 100 million Astartes running around then the Imperium wouldn't have problems.
Don't equate game with background because it's not a good comparison and that's fine.
My dude, given the scale of the galaxy you could have a canon number of loyalist marines in excess of the real world current population of Earth and they'd still be super-rare elite spec ops spread far too thin and struggling to make an impact.
At the same time conveying the sheer size of the Galaxy to most people is very difficult. It's so huge its vastly removed from most peoples experiences to even imagine or fathom. The numbers get so big they leave all point of general reference.
Having only 1000 Astartes per chapter is a number people can work with; if you then say the Imperium measures in the billions and such people - even if they don't deal with billions, can envision and work out how rare the Astartes is quite easily. It's simple math and simple concepts that conveys the point.
If you said there were 10 billion Astartes suddenly that's a BIG number. Even though spread out over the Galaxy its a tiny number, it feels and looks like a big number to the casual (and even keen) fan.
Part of story telling is getting facts right, but another is creating a story people can imagine and get their head around. Stories, and even films and TV, exist within a fictional construct setting that often uses fake things that convey a point or idea more than they aim to be true.
Eg when characters in a film "look through binoculars" we get that cut away "binocular" effect with two joined hoops of vision. Even though we know that if you actually look through binoculars you get a single circle of vision. Yet if we were to see that in a film we'd assume they were looking through a spyglass/telescope.
It's fake and wrong, but it conveys a point that's quickly understandable and relatable.
Which type of people can find relatable the existence of 1 million Astartes but will get confused if the Astartes were lets say 100 million??
10 year old boys?
Then again why are Astartes 1 million... Arguably a big number... Why arent they 100k or 10k... If the point is too make them special... At this point they are already insignificant in the wider background of the setting.
Fixing Astartes to 1 million is just arbitrary.
The setting gains nothing by making Astartes as rare as diamonds... Except for the die hard fan boys that double down on the absurdity of the setting because of reason... But who will be completelly happy if tomorrow GW said that actually there were 1 billions loyalist astartes and it was all a burocratic mistake by the administratum in the first place.
So why not change this oddity right away... Its not something polemic like giving Astartes a vagina.
2021/08/10 14:45:11
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
I'm all on board for changing things if it serves a purpose or reason, but I fail to see the reason here, beyond trying to make 40k realistic, which it fundamentally isn't.
What's next? We scrap Titans, because there's no way that they should be mobile? We get rid of chainswords and melee weapons because melee is unrealistic? We scrap Daemons, because Daemons don't exist, and psychic powers too?
Why do Space Marines need to be explicitly more numerous? What does it add to the setting?
Its not something polemic like giving Astartes a vagina.
What's polemic about that?
They/them
2021/08/10 14:53:12
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Why do Space Marines need to be explicitly more numerous? What does it add to the setting?
Mm, well.
I think that kinda depends on how they're used. If marines are used in their intended role as spec-ops to bolster the lines of guardsmen by taking on key surgical insertion missions to break up supply lines, disrupt enemy leadership and so on, then sure. "1000 chapters of 1000 marines" simply sounds incorrect as a matter of scale but doesn't really matter in the broad sweep of things. It's a background detail that sounds silly, big whoop.
But if marines are being deployed on their own in small numbers of 1000 or (sometimes much) less, yet depopulating planets worth of foes in a straight up brawl?
That's staggeringly suspension of disbelief breaking. Doesn't matter how powerful a single marine is, with numbers that low you can't drop them on a world completely overran by a waaagh or hive fleet and expect them to, in pure mechanical/logistic terms, clear it out. There's no method by which an imagination paying attention to the situation can square that kind of thing up.
2021/08/10 15:02:17
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
If a Marine Chapter is ment to do more than ultra specialized groups (death watch kill teams, assasins, GK, Custodes or Inquisitor retinues for instance) they need to be bigger than a 1000 strong unit... A number so tiny that its even puzzling how most chapters could have even a single full strenght unit of every datasheet in the codex.
The issue with the tiny Astartes numbers is that the are in a middle ground were you have quite a few more elite units than the standard Astartes chapter but they lack the numbers and firepower of proper military organisations like the Ad Mech, SOB or the Guard.
Its hard to understand what is their porpouse for the IOM in the current time line apart from being a boutique reminder of the "Good old Days" before the Heresy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 15:16:39
2021/08/10 15:18:38
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
Can anyone give an example of when a Space Marine Chapter depopulated a world just on ground combat alone? No Virus Bombs, Cyclonic Torpedoes, or mass Lance fire. Just good old-fashioned slaughter.
Specifically a Chapter. Not a Legion.
All I've been reading with very very few exceptions is Astartes acting as spearhead units going for the throat or as force multipliers.
Edited for question clarity
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/10 17:48:42
2021/08/10 17:22:53
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
Gert wrote: Can anyone give an example of when a Space Marine Chapter ended a world without the use of Exterminatus grade weapons?
Specifically a Chapter. Not a Legion.
All I've been reading with very very few exceptions is Astartes acting as spearhead units going for the throat or as force multipliers.
Charcharadons on badab prime comes to mind. They sabotaged the ancient atomic and geothermal reactors that powered thr planets hive cities. Badab kind of blew up.after that.
No exterminatus grade weapons. Just some c4 in the right place and an angry space marine.
To be fair, I'm a big fan of imperial armour 10 and 11 for the badab war. The likes of the minotaurs and charcharadons had a shocking body count to their name thanks to their Fleet assets.
I remember from the old space wolf books when ragnar looks down from a thunderhawk as millions of Guardsmen made an advance - one space marine in the right place can do more damage than all those mullions of Guardsmen.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/10 17:27:23
2021/08/10 17:28:54
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
So that would be an instance of Space Marines doing a spearhead action to complete a vital objective to win a battle.
Like it's a cool story but still fits with the tactics that Astartes follow (strike force or force multiplier).
The point I'm trying to get at here is that despite what people keep saying, GW consistently portrays Astartes the way they are meant to be portrayed, as a strike force used for Seek and Destroy/Assassination missions or as a force multiplier to mortal forces such as SoB, Militarum or Mechanicus forces.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 17:30:58
2021/08/10 17:33:32
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
Gert wrote: So that would be an instance of Space Marines doing a spearhead action to complete a vital objective to win a battle.
Like it's a cool story but still fits with the tactics that Astartes follow (strike force or force multiplier).
Not disagreeing bro, I'm answering the question that was asked. They killed a world without exterminatus class weapons.
I wont lie- I do have a soft spot for the charcharadons at the end of the day. One of the few chapters to make my Minotaurs seem like nice guys.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 17:34:46
2021/08/10 17:39:07
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
Gert wrote: Can anyone give an example of when a Space Marine Chapter ended a world without the use of Exterminatus grade weapons?
Specifically a Chapter. Not a Legion.
All I've been reading with very very few exceptions is Astartes acting as spearhead units going for the throat or as force multipliers.
No Legions as in no 30k Legions? Or no warbands belonging to Legions in 40k?
2021/08/10 17:45:23
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
Gadzilla666 wrote: No Legions as in no 30k Legions? Or no warbands belonging to Legions in 40k?
As in 30k Legions. Pre-empting the specific instance where the Word Bearers glassed a planet because it didn't say yes immediately to joining the Imperium.
Gadzilla666 wrote: No Legions as in no 30k Legions? Or no warbands belonging to Legions in 40k?
As in 30k Legions. Pre-empting the specific instance where the Word Bearers glassed a planet because it didn't say yes immediately to joining the Imperium.
Cool. Night Lords. Grendel's World. TWICE!
2021/08/10 18:09:26
Subject: What prevents the Chaos forces to flood the Galaxy with Heretic Astartes?
