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Uh...seriously? The very first example I gave, the Graia strat? It says nothing about counting as a Deny The Witch. It just says roll a 4+, and on a 4+, the power "is denied."

Use this stratagem in the opponent's psychic phase, when an enemy psyker attempts to manifest a psychic power within 18" of any graia units in your army. Roll one d6: on a 4+, that psychic power is denied.

Ergo, denies are not only Deny the Witch or things which explicitly reference Deny the Witch. This was the basis for the entire conversation...this example shows that deny has a broader definition than only DTW or things which explicitly reference it, so how much broader?

Since GW has not provided us with any definition of the term, should we adopt a magic words definition, even though deny is not a defined term, or a function-based definition, which looks not to the precise words used, but to the practical result? And we know that GW has explicitly told us to use a function-based definition with respect to a related psychic phase issue of psychic power vs psychic action. They've specifically told us not to get hung up on magic words when it comes to what you can use to modify a psychic power vs a psychic action - would it not make sense to also say that by the same token, we shouldn't be hung up on magic words when it comes to something that's used to stop a psychic ability?

No that shows that the graia strat denies as I said there are strats that deny that say they deny they explicitly reference deny so count

The rules are all about precise words within and wholey within me 2 very different things as does 3" and 6" as does hit and wound or vehicle and infantry you can't arbitrarily choose

You have no permission to make something that is not a deny a deny so only Denys are denys

U02dah4 wrote:
No that shows that the graia strat denies as I said there are strats that deny that say they deny they explicitly reference deny so count

The rules are all about precise words within and wholey within me 2 very different things as does 3" and 6" as does hit and wound or vehicle and infantry you can't arbitrarily choose

You have no permission to make something that is not a deny a deny so only Denys are denys

Do you have a reference for that?

Because from what I can see, GW is NOT precise with their words. They should be-but they aren’t.

Moreover, again, we have specific guidance from GW about the psychic phase that we shouldn't be obsessing over specific words when it comes to determining what is a psychic power vs a psychic action, which is essentially exactly this question for the immediately prior step in the chain. So not only is it wrong to say that the rule are all about magic words...GW has specifically told us not to worry about magic words in the same chain of actions as this one.

So the argument that "deny" is a magic word, even though it isn't defined anywhere, is explicitly at odds with what GW has told us about the chain of actions it occurs within.

Now is it possible that GW wants deny to be a magic word even though it doesn't want psychic action and psychic power to be magic words? I guess. Anything is possible. But is it probable?

I mean that would require us to say "GW wants to be really loose with what you can use to stop a psychic power or action - don't worry if it says it only works on powers, it works on actions too - but super technical with defining what that thing is that is stopping the power or ability - it's only a deny if it specifically has the magic word deny, otherwise it isn't." Does that make any sense at all?

In response to jna productions in relation to what that 3" isnt 6" or a vehicle isn't infantry.

There is no reference it is the basis of all rules that words mean things

The explicit proof is that noone has provided any ergo their is no case to answer under RAW.

Sure GW are inprecise sure this causes problems which they correct in faqs which gives permission to do so. You cannot arbitrarily decide which is intent or inprecision because of this vagueness. Its why RAW which we can all agree on overrules RAI which is a circular argument of I I think gw intended it to be the same vs I think gw intended it to be different

The RAW in this case is clear.


In response to yukishiro that is proof of the opposite they needed to give that guidance explicitly because those things did not mean the same things and so were not interchangeable prior to the guidance and then only interchangeable with respect to the explicit permissions in the guidance.

A completely different case to a situation where their is no such guidance or permission and so no justification to do so.

You may not like the RAW you may not agree with its logic but unless you can quote it explicitly it is not RAW and RAW trumps RAI unless the RAW doesn't work and here it does. Even if you don't like the outcome or think it's intended.

So if "resist" doesn't mean "deny", then it has no rules basis and my power will still affect you. If it means the same as "deny", which it certainly shares a meaning weigh in English, then it can be used to "deny", however it can't be used against this Trait.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So if "resist" doesn't mean "deny", then it has no rules basis and my power will still affect you. If it means the same as "deny", which it certainly shares a meaning weigh in English, then it can be used to "deny", however it can't be used against this Trait.

Exactly.

Resist doesn’t necessarily mean no effect-it could be reduced effect. There’s no RAW guidance, so anytime a stratagem that doesn’t deny and instead “resists” the power is successful, the game breaks because it’s open ended.

Or, perhaps, they’re synonymous and GW needs better editors.

U02dah4 wrote:


In response to yukishiro that is proof of the opposite they needed to give that guidance explicitly because those things did not mean the same things and so were not interchangeable prior to the guidance and then only interchangeable with respect to the explicit permissions in the guidance.

This is objectively wrong. They didn't errata anything, no text changed, they just added a section saying "people, don't be too legalistic here, anything that works on one works on the other because they're basically the same thing. Stop trying to parse terms that don't have a practical difference." It wasn't that you couldn't before but GW changed the rules to allow you to do so - GW's position is clearly that you could always do this, and that people who were applying an overly legalistic reading to stop it were playing wrong.

What GW said about psychic actions is irrelevant here. It doesnt answer if resist/negate/no effect is the same as deny. All it says is that you deny a psychic action like you can deny a psychic power. But this is about a warlord trait, which isnt a psychic action.

It isn't irrelevant. It tells you that the absence of keywords (such as "DENY") is deliberate.

I don't think it necessarily tells you anything. Could GW for some reason want to use really loose wording to control what you can use "deny" strats on, but super restrictive wording on whether the strats you are using are "denies?" I suppose so. But it wouldn't make any sense at all. The fact that GW has specifically told us not to pay attention to the magic words in the immediate prior step in the chain does strike me as relevant to whether they want us to pay attention to the magic words used in the next step in the chain. Especially when the words they don't want you to pay attention to actually are magic (i.e. defined) words, while the word in the next step is not. It'd be truly odd for GW to say "even though these terms are defined differently, don't pay attention to that because they're basically the same so anything that works for one should work for the other" and then turn around and say "but be really careful about characterizing what the thing you are using is! it has to have the magic word 'deny' in it or it doesn't count!111"

Let's check the only necessary reference material from the Core Rules and the Glossary, colors added for emphasis.

DENY THE WITCH
When a Psyker unit attempts to deny a psychic power, you must take a Deny the Witch test for that unit by rolling 2D6. If the total is greater than the result of the Psychic test, the Deny the Witch test is passed and the psychic power is denied. Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power. If a Psyker unit can attempt to deny more than one psychic power in a psychic phase, this will be listed on its datasheet.

Deny the Witch test: 2d6 roll made in an attempt to prevent a psychic power from being manifested -- must exceed the results of the roll made for that power's Psychic test.

So we can see that while deny is not a Rules Terms Glossary term, it is a commonly used term in the rules for stopping a power from manifesting.

I would therefore think that any ability that prevents a psychic power from being manifested would count as denying that power. If it just prevents the power from having an effect on a specific unit, then it does not deny.

 alextroy wrote:
Let's check the only necessary reference material from the Core Rules and the Glossary, colors added for emphasis.

DENY THE WITCH
When a Psyker unit attempts to deny a psychic power, you must take a Deny the Witch test for that unit by rolling 2D6. If the total is greater than the result of the Psychic test, the Deny the Witch test is passed and the psychic power is denied. Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power. If a Psyker unit can attempt to deny more than one psychic power in a psychic phase, this will be listed on its datasheet.

Deny the Witch test: 2d6 roll made in an attempt to prevent a psychic power from being manifested -- must exceed the results of the roll made for that power's Psychic test.

So we can see that while deny is not a Rules Terms Glossary term, it is a commonly used term in the rules for stopping a power from manifesting.

I would therefore think that any ability that prevents a psychic power from being manifested would count as denying that power. If it just prevents the power from having an effect on a specific unit, then it does not deny.

We still dont know whether resist/no effect/negate is the same as deny, or not.

We know that noone has provided any rules evidence that they are. only that they do a similar thing which is all that matters as if there is no rules evidence their is no case similarity is not evidence as there are countless examples of similar things that are not the same.

U02dah4 wrote:
We know that noone has provided any rules evidence that they are. only that they do a similar thing which is all that matters as if there is no rules evidence their is no case similarity is not evidence as there are countless examples of similar things that are not the same.

That's fine, you can have "resist is not the same as deny", meaning the strat never does anything. Sounds fine to me.

No resist-resists and deny-denys and negates-negates

E.g.

Use this Stratagem in your opponent’s Psychic phase, when an enemy PSYKER manifests a psychic power within 18" of a SISTERS OF SILENCE INFANTRY unit from your army, after any Deny the Witch attempt. Roll one D6; on a 3+ that psychic power is resisted and its effects are negated.

It is clear the power is negated saying it does nothing is a disingenuous Lie. Nothing however says the power Denys and it is clear it happens after any denys

No, it happens after the deny the witch attempt. That is, as already noted, not the same as deny. Think of Deny as the set, deny the witch is s member of that set.

Amusing yiu pick the one that actually has wording to indicate stopped completely, and call it a disingenuous lie. When being disingenuous is exactly what youre doing...

Actually, it's more that deny is an effect while Deny the Witch is the standard method to get that effect. It is possible to have other ways to deny without using Deny the Witch.

Given the Sisters of Silence rule is very 8th edition, I'd expect it to use the much clearer technical language of deny when they get around to updating them to 9th edition rather than reinventing the wheel.

Hmm, I guess that's actually true - both of the "true" 9th edition deny strats (Graia and Sisters) we have so far say "deny." The BT one says "resist," and it's technically 9th edition, but it was just reissued word for word in the index from the 8th edition Faith and Fury version.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
We know that noone has provided any rules evidence that they are. only that they do a similar thing which is all that matters as if there is no rules evidence their is no case similarity is not evidence as there are countless examples of similar things that are not the same.

That's fine, you can have "resist is not the same as deny", meaning the strat never does anything. Sounds fine to me.

I'm surprised no one is arguing over plurality.

The rules clearly state "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power."

RAW, this means the first player to attempt DTW eliminates the ability. That makes the Loremaster's trait almost useless, since DTW can only be attempted once per game.

Clearly, the resist / negate / sidestep mechanics GW has yet to articulate would remain unaffected. ​Looking forward to the FAQ spelling out how these alternately named DTW mechanics operate.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I'm surprised no one is arguing over plurality.

The rules clearly state "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power."

RAW, this means the first player to attempt DTW eliminates the ability. That makes the Loremaster's trait almost useless, since DTW can only be attempted once per game.

I am not surprised that no one is arguing over plurality.

If you take the rule that says "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power." out of context, then maybe that means only one deny attempt per game.

But in context, they are talking about a single power being used and only one deny attempt for that specific usage of the power.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I'm surprised no one is arguing over plurality.

The rules clearly state "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power."

RAW, this means the first player to attempt DTW eliminates the ability. That makes the Loremaster's trait almost useless, since DTW can only be attempted once per game.

I am not surprised that no one is arguing over plurality.

If you take the rule that says "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power." out of context, then maybe that means only one deny attempt per game.

But in context, they are talking about a single power being used and only one deny attempt for that specific usage of the power.

Assuming intent in the absence of evidence only proves you have a great imagination. Might as well be saying resist / negate / deny is the same as Deny the Witch.

Please show where the BRB states DTW can be attempted more than once per game. Page and graph please.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Please show where the BRB states DTW can be attempted more than once per game. Page and graph please.

I think you are trolling, but ill answer anyway:

The "To manifest the psychic power, you must first pass a Psychic test. The opposing player can then select one of their Psyker units that is within 24" of the Psyker unit attempting to manifest the power and attempt to deny that power before its effects are resolved by passing a Deny the Witch test."

Clearly, a Deny the Witch test, can be done every time the enemy successfully passes a Psychic test.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I'm surprised no one is arguing over plurality.

The rules clearly state "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power."

RAW, this means the first player to attempt DTW eliminates the ability. That makes the Loremaster's trait almost useless, since DTW can only be attempted once per game.

I am not surprised that no one is arguing over plurality.

If you take the rule that says "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power." out of context, then maybe that means only one deny attempt per game.

But in context, they are talking about a single power being used and only one deny attempt for that specific usage of the power.

Assuming intent in the absence of evidence only proves you have a great imagination. Might as well be saying resist / negate / deny is the same as Deny the Witch.

Please show where the BRB states DTW can be attempted more than once per game. Page and graph please.

Well, you do have the sentence at the end of the Deny the Witch paragraph (Battle Primer page 14) that says "If a PSYKER unit can attempt to deny more than one psychic power in a psychic phase, this will be noted on its datasheet." This does tend to indicate that the standard for a psyker unit to deny is once per psychic phase.

DeathReaper wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Please show where the BRB states DTW can be attempted more than once per game. Page and graph please.

I think you are trolling, but ill answer anyway:

The "To manifest the psychic power, you must first pass a Psychic test. The opposing player can then select one of their Psyker units that is within 24" of the Psyker unit attempting to manifest the power and attempt to deny that power before its effects are resolved by passing a Deny the Witch test."

Clearly, a Deny the Witch test, can be done every time the enemy successfully passes a Psychic test.

Your citation says the opposing player CAN attempt to deny that power by passing a Deny the Witch test. It does not grant your opponent the ability to use Deny the Witch more than once per game.

The rules for Deny the Witch are clear: "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power." FULL STOP, no qualifiers or exceptions.

Please show where the BRB states DTW can be attempted more than once per game. Page and graph please.

doctortom wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Assuming intent in the absence of evidence only proves you have a great imagination. Might as well be saying resist / negate / deny is the same as Deny the Witch.

Please show where the BRB states DTW can be attempted more than once per game. Page and graph please.

Well, you do have the sentence at the end of the Deny the Witch paragraph (Battle Primer page 14) that says "If a PSYKER unit can attempt to deny more than one psychic power in a psychic phase, this will be noted on its datasheet." This does tend to indicate that the standard for a psyker unit to deny is once per psychic phase.

GW writes rules all the time that invalidate one another. This is just another example, the author might have meant to say 'resist' of 'negate' in place of 'deny.' Clearly these are not the same terms.

My friends p5freak and U02dah4 are correct in their assessment that strict reading of RAW provides the only accurate interpretation of rules. And the rules as written state very clearly that DTW is once per game.

I look forward to learning more about the unspecified resist, negate and deny mechanics. They could be related to the upcoming Chaos releases, maybe Chaos gets to "deny" twice per game and that's their special trait.

 techsoldaten wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Please show where the BRB states DTW can be attempted more than once per game. Page and graph please.

I think you are trolling, but ill answer anyway:

The "To manifest the psychic power, you must first pass a Psychic test. The opposing player can then select one of their Psyker units that is within 24" of the Psyker unit attempting to manifest the power and attempt to deny that power before its effects are resolved by passing a Deny the Witch test."

Clearly, a Deny the Witch test, can be done every time the enemy successfully passes a Psychic test.

Your citation says the opposing player CAN attempt to deny that power by passing a Deny the Witch test. It does not grant your opponent the ability to use Deny the Witch more than once per game.

The rules for Deny the Witch are clear: "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power." FULL STOP, no qualifiers or exceptions.

Please show where the BRB states DTW can be attempted more than once per game. Page and graph please.

The proof is context. If you read the full section on the Psychic Phase and that single sentence in context, it is clear the statement regards each manifestation of a Psychic power, not the game as a whole.

 alextroy wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:


The rules for Deny the Witch are clear: "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power." FULL STOP, no qualifiers or exceptions.

Please show where the BRB states DTW can be attempted more than once per game. Page and graph please.

The proof is context. If you read the full section on the Psychic Phase and that single sentence in context, it is clear the statement regards each manifestation of a Psychic power, not the game as a whole.

No, you must not be aware of the actual language. Here's what the BRB actually says.

DENY THE WITCH

When a Psyker unit attempts to deny a psychic power, you must take a Deny the Witch test for that unit by rolling 2D6. If the total is greater than the result of the Psychic test, the Deny the Witch test is passed and the psychic power is denied. Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power. If a Psyker unit can attempt to deny more than one psychic power in a psychic phase, this will be listed on its datasheet.

Breaking this down, the rule explicitly states:

- A psyker unit can attempt to deny a psychic power

- To do so, it must take a Deny the Witch test

- The rule spells out the pass / fail conditions for DTW

- The rule states only one DTW can be made, FULL STOP. No qualifications, no exceptions, nothing about 'per phase' or 'per unit'.

- The rule states a Psyker unit contact attempt more than one DTW if it has a special rule, which I assume would state specifically that it has an exception to this rule

This is the rule as written.

If you think GW meant for it to work a different way, please cite the page and graph that allows a unit meeting all of the above conditions to perform DTW more than once per game.

Otherwise, like p5freak and U02dah4 have already stated, RAW is the only valid interpretation of the rules.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Your citation says the opposing player CAN attempt to deny that power by passing a Deny the Witch test. It does not grant your opponent the ability to use Deny the Witch more than once per game.

False. It grants permission to deny each time, that is what can means.

The rules for Deny the Witch are clear: "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power." FULL STOP, no qualifiers or exceptions.

Maybe look at the whole rule insetad of cherry picking a fragment.

The Deny the Witch section of the rules say:
"When a Psyker unit attempts to deny a psychic power, you must take a Deny the Witch test for that unit by rolling 2D6. If the total is greater than the result of the Psychic test, the Deny the Witch test is passed and the psychic power is denied. Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power. If a Psyker unit can attempt to deny more than one psychic power in a psychic phase, this will be listed on its datasheet."

When they say "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power." they are referencing the rules for using powers.

The "Manifest psychic powers" section says "To manifest the psychic power, you must first pass a Psychic test. The opposing player can then select one of their Psyker units that is within 24" of the Psyker unit attempting to manifest the power and attempt to deny that power before its effects are resolved by passing a Deny the Witch test."

This happens every time, as instructed by these rules. This is the context of the rules. Do not ignore the context.

Please show where the BRB states DTW can be attempted more than once per game. Page and graph please.

Your argument is not in good faith, so we are done here.

The Psychic phase rules allow for more than once a game. The proof is context. Your argument is 100% unequivocally false.

Do not ignore the rules.

 techsoldaten wrote:

doctortom wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Assuming intent in the absence of evidence only proves you have a great imagination. Might as well be saying resist / negate / deny is the same as Deny the Witch.

Please show where the BRB states DTW can be attempted more than once per game. Page and graph please.

Well, you do have the sentence at the end of the Deny the Witch paragraph (Battle Primer page 14) that says "If a PSYKER unit can attempt to deny more than one psychic power in a psychic phase, this will be noted on its datasheet." This does tend to indicate that the standard for a psyker unit to deny is once per psychic phase.

GW writes rules all the time that invalidate one another. This is just another example, the author might have meant to say 'resist' of 'negate' in place of 'deny.' Clearly these are not the same terms.

My friends p5freak and U02dah4 are correct in their assessment that strict reading of RAW provides the only accurate interpretation of rules. And the rules as written state very clearly that DTW is once per game.

No, if you read it in context it indicates a unit can deny once per psychic phase. There can be more than one interpretation, and we have a supplemental RAW statement about it will be indicated on a unit's datasheet if it can attempt to deny more than one power per turn. Obviously they would not need to say one power per turn if only one power per game could be denied. But, you do you and ignore any evidence to the contrary and make bad faith arguments, just so you can try to score internet points.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Your citation says the opposing player CAN attempt to deny that power by passing a Deny the Witch test. It does not grant your opponent the ability to use Deny the Witch more than once per game.

False. It grants permission to deny each time, that is what can means.

That is incorrect. RAW, DTW can be performed once per game.

'Can' is a conditional. It means a unit has the ability to do something, subject to conditions.

In the shooting phase, a squad of CSM CAN fire their Bolters. But not if there are no valid targets in 24".

DTW is no different. In this context, CAN is a conditional.

 DeathReaper wrote:

The rules for Deny the Witch are clear: "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power." FULL STOP, no qualifiers or exceptions.

Maybe look at the whole rule insetad of cherry picking a fragment.

The entire rule is spelled out in my previous post. The rule does not say "each time a Psyker unit attempts to deny a psychic power." It says "When a unit attempts to deny a psychic power." It goes on to say "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power."

Full stop, no conditions, no exceptions. That means, RAW, a condition of DTW is whether or not it has already been used in the game.

There is nothing unclear about this. Please cite another rule that states DTW can be used more than once per game, because the actual rule literally states this only happens once.

 DeathReaper wrote:

The Deny the Witch section of the rules say:
"When a Psyker unit attempts to deny a psychic power, you must take a Deny the Witch test for that unit by rolling 2D6. If the total is greater than the result of the Psychic test, the Deny the Witch test is passed and the psychic power is denied. Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power. If a Psyker unit can attempt to deny more than one psychic power in a psychic phase, this will be listed on its datasheet."

When they say "Only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power." they are referencing the rules for using powers.

The "Manifest psychic powers" section says "To manifest the psychic power, you must first pass a Psychic test. The opposing player can then select one of their Psyker units that is within 24" of the Psyker unit attempting to manifest the power and attempt to deny that power before its effects are resolved by passing a Deny the Witch test."

The language for DTW specifically states only one attempt can be made to deny a psychic power. The Manifest psychic powers section uses the word CAN. Again, that's a conditional subject to the limitations stated in the DTW section.

So none of the rules cited in this quote states DTW can be used more than once per game.

 DeathReaper wrote:

This happens every time, as instructed by these rules. This is the context of the rules. Do not ignore the context.

Please show where the BRB states DTW can be attempted more than once per game. Page and graph please.

Your argument is not in good faith, so we are done here.

The Psychic phase rules allow for more than once a game. The proof is context. Your argument is 100% unequivocally false.

Do not ignore the rules.

A bad faith argument lacks basic respect for the argument.

I've presented specific quotations from the rulebook and broken down the language point by point. I've been clear about the fact this is a RAW argument. I've respectfully asked for counter arguments and, so far, received none.

Attacking the speaker does not prove your point.

Please show where the BRB states DTW can be attempted more than once per game. Page and graph please.