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 koooaei wrote:
Wait a sec, can you tell more about the trukkboy nobody combo and how he affects lootas?

While a TRUKK BOYZ unit is embarked on a Trukk, you add 1 to all ranged hit rolls. There was a recent FAQ that clarified that when an open-topped transport is subject to any hit modifiers, these are applied to any passengers.

You can't fit any Boyz into the same Trukk as Lootas as there're 10+ models minimum, but you can give the TRUKK BOYZ keyword to a NOB or WARBOSS. That means something like:

7 Lootas & 5 regular Nobz

6 Lootas & 3 MANZ

11 Lootas & 1 Nob with Waaagh banner

Yeah. It seems like something which could do with a FAQed, because it doesn't feel intentional, but in terms of rules lawyering it seems cut and dry.

They'd benefit from the bonuses in a Speedwaaagh on the same basis as well.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I especially love how Lootas went from "One in every 5 can be a Spanna" to "One in every 5 must be a Spanna".

That was fun.

The Spanna who can take a big shoota which the kit also lacks a left arm for (iirc).

Same for the rokkit launcha.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Well lets see, 30 Grots right now cost me 150pts and will run away en mass when they lose 3 models. (1 from morale and then 9ish more from attrition) And god help you if you go below 50% because than they lose models on a 1-3. . So if you Grot shield a single unit of lootas you are now losing 150pts more or less to attrition and enemy firepower just to shield a unit which at best is putting out 36 shots of S7 AP-1 2dmg shots, of which 12 will likely hit.

That's irrelevant. Morale doesn't happen until the end of the turn. Either they gun through the whole unit or they don't get to shoot the Lootas, so, you get ( at least ) a two opportunities to trade with Lootas without casualties. With T3 it would take over 20 Intercessors to take a 20 man so you could likely easily take smaller units and build in some redundant shields for the same cost.

No, at best you get 2 turns of shooting, its a 50/50 chance . Furthermore, 20 grots is 100pts. If you take 10 its fairly easy to wipe them out with just incidental dmg. But here is the best part about your whole argument. LOOTAS STILL SUCK! lol. You don't grot shield them because you don't take them in the first place because THEY SUCK. That chickenwalker I mentioned is 65pts and gets 4 hits without any buffs. 4! for For 85pts a unit of lootas gets...are you ready for this? 2.6 hits. So why on gods green earth would you take lootas at all? Ohh! you can spend another 100+pts to make them harder to kill! For that price the admech player can take 3 chickenwalkers LMAO.

Your arguments are irrelevant and useless. Lootas suck and your only defense so far as to why they don't suck is that you can spend more points to make them slightly more durable or you can spend CP to make them slightly less crap. Neither is worth doing and there are significantly better options in our codex.

Chickens are likely due a points increase.

You're still using a frame of reference where you're playing 8th edition and you can plop 25 Lootas in the middle of the table, dump a ton of resources into them, and shoot almost anything. You were spending well over 600 points last edition and now 355 to 370 is a bridge too far?

You don't put Lootas in the middle of the table anymore and sit back while they do their job. You use them surgically rather than just this gaumy ( means clumsy - local lingo ) hammer.

There are a few considerations on how to approach them:

1) Stop taking them in blocks of 15 and making them a huge target. 4 with a KMB spanner still do good chip damage, are not threatening, and are a repair oasis.
2) Teleport them in.
3) Don't put them dead center. Obscuring goes a long way to cutting down the potential angles of return fire.
4) Oversaturate target selection - this means Boyz. Yes, I know. They're "awful". They also provide an immediate threat. Putting lootas in an army of vehicles will get them singled out by small arms.
5) Stop pointing them at marines

15 Bad Moons Lootas that drop in and use Showin' Off --

36 * .167 * 2 * .167 * .666 * 2 = 2.7 // Exploding hits & exploding wounds
36 * .167 * 2 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 6 // Exploding hits
36 * .167 * .167 * .666 * 2 = 1.3 // Exploding wounds
36 * .167 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 3
6 * .333 * .167 * 3.5 = 1.2 // KMB & exploding wounds
6 * .333 * .5 * .833 * 3.5 = 2.9 // KMB

That's 17 damage to anything T6 or less with a 3+.

Last I checked 17 damage wasn't anything to sneeze at. If you were aiming to pop Raiders the Lootas do 12 ( down from 13 ) and the KMBs do 3.1 ( down from 4.1 ).

Two TV Contemptors do 14 and they cost more than 15 Lootas.

The loota bomb was only dominant when you could Mob Up lootas AND make them shoot twice AND auto-hit on 5s AND protect them with grot shields for 1cp. All it took was removing Mob Up for lootas in 8th and they dropped completely out of sight. It wasn't worth dumping 4CP into a shooting phase for a unit that might only get 15 shots hitting on 5+.

The new codex only brought more nerfs. Grot Shields is functionally useless now (aside from the Makari exploit). 2CP to use more-expensive grots as shields, and you have to declare it before your opponent has declared any of his attacks in his shooting phase. So he can easily optimize his shooting to clear the grots, or even decline to shoot your lootas altogether. (Which is a solid tactical option for your opponent, given how the lootas are so unimpressive in lethality, and they can invite you to waste 2cp shielding them next turn too.)

 Daedalus81 wrote:

15 Bad Moons Lootas that drop in and use Showin' Off --

36 * .167 * 2 * .167 * .666 * 2 = 2.7 // Exploding hits & exploding wounds
36 * .167 * 2 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 6 // Exploding hits
36 * .167 * .167 * .666 * 2 = 1.3 // Exploding wounds
36 * .167 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 3
6 * .333 * .167 * 3.5 = 1.2 // KMB & exploding wounds
6 * .333 * .5 * .833 * 3.5 = 2.9 // KMB

That's 17 damage to anything T6 or less with a 3+.

Last I checked 17 damage wasn't anything to sneeze at. If you were aiming to pop Raiders the Lootas do 12 ( down from 13 ) and the KMBs do 3.1 ( down from 4.1 ).

Two TV Contemptors do 14 and they cost more than 15 Lootas.

Ok, maybe I'm dumb, but where are you getting exploding hits and wounds from? Bad Moons clan trait and Showin' Off don't give exploding anything.

Shooting a T6 3+ target.
15 Lootas, 3 KMB, Bad Moons, Showin' Off.

36 shots. 6 as per Showin' Off explode for 12 hits. 6 are regular hits. Total hits=18.
18 wounding on 3s. 3 activate the badmoon trait on 6s for an extra point of AP. 9 go through regular.
9 AP-1 into 3+ save equals 4.5 wounds.
3 AP-2 into 3+ save equals 2 wounds.
Therefore 6.5 wounds. Therefore 13 damage.

6 KMB shots. 1 explodes for 2 hits, 1 regular hit. Total 3.
3 wounds on 3s. 0.5 activate the badmoon trait, 1.5 do regular.
0.5 is AP4 so no save. 1.5 reduces armour to 6+, so 1.25. So 1.75 wounds go through. 1.75*3.5 damage=6.125 damage.
Total: 19.125 damage.

Seems kind of reasonable to me, even if this is a sort of skewed way of looking at KMBs given the level of variance.

Versus 20 point Intercessors you are getting around a 60% return - which again, seems more than reasonable for a shooting unit using a 1 CP stratagem.

I really don't think Loota damage is the problem - and giving them say 6 shots is vaguely off the scale crazy. The problem is more that your opponents are going to nuke your very expensive and fragile 270 point unit from orbit. You can mess about with a 30 strong grot-shield, but GW is unsurprisingly worried precisely about that fact hence why its not that attractive and severely dilutes the damage if you do (although the damage is still solid if you get 2 turns of it). If you want to play that sort of list at a FLGS I think it would do okay. Its not top-tier tournament competitive, and I don't think that's a bad thing, because here's a big blob of Lootas, if I roll hot everything just dies was kind of lame.

Hypothesis - GW don't hate Lootas. GW may, instead, have a problem with the OP...

 koooaei wrote:
I think lootas aren't too bad now. Especially in freeboota lists. Not the most effecient unit - you're probably better off with a boostablasta, but a min squad marching alongside your buggy tide is feasible. They do ok-ish damage when buffed with 4+bs, can fix a buggy and do not occupy fa slot. Yo'll likely have free hs slots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They do feel too squishy for the points. If they were 15, they'd be fine. Or if they had 4+ armor they've looted previously.

I already did the math above, they are less durable and less deadly than a Chickenwalker even at 12ppm. 15 would just make them a slightly less crap option. 15ppm and 4+ armor would at least make them worth taking as a backfield objective holding unit, but at that point the Dakka profile is completely wasted.

 Galas wrote:
I don't disagree with Lootas being bad but I would not compare them with AM chickens. Is like comparing any walker to double volkite contemptors. Unfair to use a busted unit as point of reference. That unit is the outlier.

AM already went through a nerf phase. Chickenwalkers came out without any real reduction in dmg out put nor price increase.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Instead of more damage, they could have an additional utility rule to make them worthwhile.

Space Marine Suppressors got a similar offensive profile and are able to actually hit things, but for me their biggest advantage is that hits deny overwatch.

Makes them valuable even if they don't kill much.

I just went through every SM tournament winning list since July 31st and I found 1 list that had 2 MSU suppressor squads in it, nobody else took even 1.

But lets also take a look at this, a MSU Suppressor squad is 6 T4 wounds on a 3+ save platform that can move 12' and averages 6 hits per 100pts. The Lootas average almost 6 models for 100pts (5 lootas 1 spanner) and that would give them 3.33 hits at normal range and 5 hits at Dakka range. They are also 6 wounds but at T5 on a 6+ save platform and have massive leadership problems, furthermore they have a 5" move, so literally less than half. Also, those Suppressors are Heavy 3 with 48' range on a short board, meaning they can happily camp in cover on a backfield objective plinking away with their autocannons while enjoying a 2+ save. And as mentioned by yourself, they also have that inbuilt rule about suppressing their enemy. But, even if you took away that they would still be a better platform and dmg dealing unit than lootas.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Bit over the top to claim that GW now hate Lootas tbh. They're not the auto-include they once were and I'm happy with that. Was pretty boring to see a blob of 20, run as Bad Moonz with 5+ DDD and shoot twice.

They were auto-include right up until GW got rid of Mob Up, because it was an exploit to turn a crap unit into a relatively good unit. Even if you took 15 Lootas by themselves they were not worth spending 5CP on to buff with exploding 5s and shoot twice, it was only when you took them in 20-25 that they earned their points back and even then only if you took 90+ grots to eat shots for them while also spending another CP every turn so those grots could eat those shots. They were a CP sinkhole and were rewarding if you rolled well.

GW got rid of shoot twice, gw got rid of mob up and GW increased Grot shields price to the point that its functionally useless. So why couldn't they have made lootas at least as good as other factions Autocannon wielding infantry?

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Chickens are likely due a points increase.

You're still using a frame of reference where you're playing 8th edition and you can plop 25 Lootas in the middle of the table, dump a ton of resources into them, and shoot almost anything. You were spending well over 600 points last edition and now 355 to 370 is a bridge too far?

You don't put Lootas in the middle of the table anymore and sit back while they do their job. You use them surgically rather than just this gaumy ( means clumsy - local lingo ) hammer.

There are a few considerations on how to approach them:

1) Stop taking them in blocks of 15 and making them a huge target. 4 with a KMB spanner still do good chip damage, are not threatening, and are a repair oasis.
2) Teleport them in.
3) Don't put them dead center. Obscuring goes a long way to cutting down the potential angles of return fire.
4) Oversaturate target selection - this means Boyz. Yes, I know. They're "awful". They also provide an immediate threat. Putting lootas in an army of vehicles will get them singled out by small arms.
5) Stop pointing them at marines

15 Bad Moons Lootas that drop in and use Showin' Off --

36 * .167 * 2 * .167 * .666 * 2 = 2.7 // Exploding hits & exploding wounds
36 * .167 * 2 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 6 // Exploding hits
36 * .167 * .167 * .666 * 2 = 1.3 // Exploding wounds
36 * .167 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 3
6 * .333 * .167 * 3.5 = 1.2 // KMB & exploding wounds
6 * .333 * .5 * .833 * 3.5 = 2.9 // KMB

That's 17 damage to anything T6 or less with a 3+.
Last I checked 17 damage wasn't anything to sneeze at. If you were aiming to pop Raiders the Lootas do 12 ( down from 13 ) and the KMBs do 3.1 ( down from 4.1 ).
Two TV Contemptors do 14 and they cost more than 15 Lootas.

Ad Mech as mentioned have already received a FAQ and nerf because of how good they are. Chickenwalkers dmg potential is there. But even if you jacked up their price by 10pts each which would be a hefty nerf, they would still pt for pt out perform lootas so your argument is invalid from the start.

Next that 600pts of lootas last edition...well, it was actually 500pts of lootas (15 and 10 combined to make a 25 loota squad) and than at least 60 grots for another 180 pts to shield them. But lets just compare that 500pts of lootas vs 500pts of NEW lootas.

Those 500pts of lootas were functionally indestructible until you killed 60ish grots, they were also a MASSIVE threat to the point where your opponent HAD to deal with them or else he would lose the game, (Keep in mind i'm fine with this being toned down). But those 500pts of Lootas averaged 50 hits a turn from 2 strats worth 5CP. Being Generous, 510pts of New lootas will get you 24 actual lootas and 6 Big shoota Spanners. Those 24 lootas, even in dakka range will average ....24 hits. If you spend CP to make them have exploding 6s it works out to 36 hits, and of course that requires you to take a Bad Moonz detachment which is a substandard faction to say the least. None of hte recent ork lists that have won have taken a Bad Moonz detachment let alone their primary (which is what you need to take in order to use their Strat). So yet again, yeah, if you hamstring the rest of your army you can make lootas 28% less effective than they were last edition. Congrats, its worse by far and you just hamstrung your army. Also, if you do this you are exposing one of those loota units to enemy fire because you can only grot shield 1 unit and as mentioned, those grots are now 66% more expensive. And the last note on this exercise....both mobz of lootas and the grot shield have to be within HALF RANGE to get this dmg output, otherwise they lose 33% dmg output.

Also, if you upgrade the spanners to KMBs that 510pt unit of Lootas is now 540pts, and your math also left off the fact that hit rolls of 1 = 1 dead Spanner. So every time you fire them you have a 1/6th chance to kill your 22pt model while only having a 1/3 chance to hit something, and bad moonz no longer re-roll 1s.

1) Stop taking them in blocks of 15 and making them a huge target. 4 with a KMB spanner still do good chip damage, are not threatening, and are a repair oasis.

You can't take them in blocks of 15 because morale will gut them. 4 with a KMB means they have to be within 24 to have any chance of inflicting dmg with the spanner, and no they don't do good chip dmg. 4 lootas average 1.7dmg vs a Marine or 1.3 vs a T7 vehicle. Neither is worth 90pts and the spanner averages better dmg but requires you to be within 24' range and has a 50% chance to kill himself compared to inflicting dmg on the enemy. Not exactly promising for a 22pt model. Also, they aren't a "repair oasis" because they have M5 and those buggies have M10, they will literally be out of range to do anything for those vehicles turn 1 and nobody is going to turn a buggy around to bring it to a loota unit to repair 1 wound.

2) Teleport them in.

,.....No. That is a MASSIVE waste of points AND of CP. If you are teleporting them in do get within half range and inflict dmg on a unit you would be better off using a plethora of other units that do better dmg output and/or are more durable.

3) Don't put them dead center. Obscuring goes a long way to cutting down the potential angles of return fire.

No kidding? Wow, I wish I had thought of that....of course if you don't get them within 24' range they are crap anyway so you have to move them about in a vehicle or they die turn 1.

4) Oversaturate target selection - this means Boyz. Yes, I know. They're "awful". They also provide an immediate threat. Putting lootas in an army of vehicles will get them singled out by small arms.

So to make a crap unit....less crap....saturate the board with even more crap in the hopes that your enemy does what? Dies laughing at how crap your army is? Bud you've reached peak levels of WTF. You are now arguing that the best way to make Lootas competitive is to take even worse units and hope your enemy dies laughing.

5) Stop pointing them at marines

Stop pointing them at arguably their best return on value target? Ok.....

Tyel wrote:

Seems kind of reasonable to me, even if this is a sort of skewed way of looking at KMBs given the level of variance.
Versus 20 point Intercessors you are getting around a 60% return - which again, seems more than reasonable for a shooting unit using a 1 CP stratagem.

I really don't think Loota damage is the problem - and giving them say 6 shots is vaguely off the scale crazy. The problem is more that your opponents are going to nuke your very expensive and fragile 270 point unit from orbit. You can mess about with a 30 strong grot-shield, but GW is unsurprisingly worried precisely about that fact hence why its not that attractive and severely dilutes the damage if you do (although the damage is still solid if you get 2 turns of it). If you want to play that sort of list at a FLGS I think it would do okay. Its not top-tier tournament competitive, and I don't think that's a bad thing, because here's a big blob of Lootas, if I roll hot everything just dies was kind of lame.

most of this i've already shot down above. To get the strat you are forced to take a bad kulture that gimps most of your army, and especially your warlord. And most importantly, and something that both of you have forgotten...if you are taking a big blob of Lootas like you and Daed mentioned and are within 24' of the enemy....you are fethed. 60% return as you mentioned is a good return on investment...except that the following turn that loota unit is dead. So you lose out on 40% of your investment because the only way to make that unit even remotely good is as a suicide unit and again...we have better suicide units. Also, your calculations left off that you nuked a 22pt Spanner on average

Ork infantry is generally mediocre to decent.

Ork vehicles and flyers are competitive.

That's where this dex is at. In a competitive meta theres not much reason at all to run infantry out of this dex. Personally I tend not to complain about bad units I like in my dex when I can compensate for them with good units because it just gets people triggered and the usual response is to fantasize/lie about how um ackshually that unit is secretly op because the whole codex has a 60%WR (coincidentally ignoring that those are universally lists spamming just the good stuff)

I could for example complain about talos pain engines and grotesques.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

4) Oversaturate target selection - this means Boyz. Yes, I know. They're "awful". They also provide an immediate threat. Putting lootas in an army of vehicles will get them singled out by small arms.

No, it's actually the opposite, this means putting them in a trukk in a vehicle heavy list. That's target saturation. In a full infantry list they'd be singled out and wiped immediately, while in an army of vehicles there would definitely be more threatening targets to deal with before their trukk. Trukk also allows the squad to easily get the max amount of shots and good line of sight thanks to its speed.

Ork vehicles are also much more competitive than infantries, that kind of saturation works.

 Blackie wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

4) Oversaturate target selection - this means Boyz. Yes, I know. They're "awful". They also provide an immediate threat. Putting lootas in an army of vehicles will get them singled out by small arms.

No, it's actually the opposite, this means putting them in a trukk in a vehicle heavy list. That's target saturation. In a full infantry list they'd be singled out and wiped immediately, while in an army of vehicles there would definitely be more threatening targets to deal with before their trukk. Trukk also allows the squad to easily get the max amount of shots and good line of sight thanks to its speed.

Ork vehicles are also much more competitive than infantries, that kind of saturation works.

Except with lootas there is no reason to run them like this. 70pts for a trukk + 204pts of Lootas for 274pts which average 3 S5 hits and 6.6 S7 AP-1 D2 hits a turn. Not exactly intimidating. Yeah, it would be ignored in a vehicle heavy list...but thats because there wouldn't be a reason to attack it since it wouldn't make its points back if you safely ignored it for 3+ turns.

Not intimidating but not that bad either. Not everyone has access to every possible combinations from the codex. I don't have more than 6 buggies in total for example, and I don't intend to buy more. I won't buy the new snagga guys either, including the squig riders which would match very well in a vehicle based list. But I do have a spared trukk and lootas.

If they are ignored for 3+ turns they'll likely get their points back. 10 lootas + 2 spanner means 10 hits with autocannons and 5 with big shootas (including the trukk) per turn on average assuming they get max shots, which they should easily do thanks to the trukk movement. Bad moons, which I currently play, also helps by increasing ranges.

There are certainly better solution to trukk lootas, but models availability is also a real thing.

I don't see any other way to run lootas, in a footslogging list they don't make any sense. They won't last a turn. And grot shield is not worthy, too expensive (you need way more than just 10 gretchins) and doesn't help lootas to get max shots.

Semper, what do you want exactly? What do you precieve lootas being able to do? And I won't accept "make them better" how many points of marines or whatever restrictions you want is a fair trade for them and what do they need to get there.

As others point out, comparing them to admech chickens isn't a good starting point as they're widely acknowledged as too efficient for the cost.

You often make complaints about ork units, they're often not the best units. But you also make these threads sound like GW burned your house down because it's not an S tier competitive unit. There is a grey area where they can be acceptable without being top of the pile, so where does that lay for you?

Okay lets try again.
Take Freeboota detachment.
Take 12 Lootas, 2 big shootas, 10 deffguns.
Take Trukk.

Declare Speedwaaagh.
Ride into 18" of target. With M12" that means you needed your Trukk to be within 30".
Kill unit with something else (Squigbuggy becoming the traditional choice) to activate Freebootas.

As per "9. If a Transport model is under the effects of a modifier to its
ranged attacks (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls,
etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model
makes a ranged attack." the Lootas therefore now benefit from both Freeboota and Speedwaaagh rules.

I can maybe seem some YMDC argument over whether the +1 additional attack with dakka weapons should go through but I don't think this interpretation is that skewed a reading of the above quoted passage.

Now shoot some intercessors.
40 shots from Deff guns (3+1 from first turn Speedwaaagh). 20 hits. 13.33 wounds. 8.88~ dead intercessors for 178 points.
18 shots from Big Shootas. 9 hits. 6 wounds, 3 wounds on intercessors for 30 points.

208 points divided by 274 points equals an 75.8% return. Maybe you can only get into 24" rather than 18" so the Big Shootas only get 4 shots each. It still works out as a 72% return. This falls to a 55-57% return on the next turn when you lose that +1 shots per dakka weapon but still have the +1 to hit and +1 AP.

Which seems perfectly viable if you want to run them. 3 Scrapjets would be better in just about everyway (better shooting, harder to kill, mortal wound assault potential) - but as said, you may not have half a dozen of them to hand. Maybe you don't have 3 dakkajets etc etc.

That's way to gamey of an interaction for my liking and I think they faqd open topped for stuff like that.

It doesn't work for passengers cause the rule requires the shooter to be vehicle or biker.

 koooaei wrote:
It doesn't work for passengers cause the rule requires the shooter to be vehicle or biker.

RAW that restriction is bypassed. Trukk gets AP-1 since it's vehicles and then passengers also gets it because all modifiers that are applied to transports are also applied to the passengers. It's totally unintentional though and it will be fixed as soon as possible. No reason to take advantage from this combo since it's a clear mistake.

Dudeface wrote:
Semper, what do you want exactly? What do you precieve lootas being able to do? And I won't accept "make them better" how many points of marines or whatever restrictions you want is a fair trade for them and what do they need to get there.

As others point out, comparing them to admech chickens isn't a good starting point as they're widely acknowledged as too efficient for the cost.

You often make complaints about ork units, they're often not the best units. But you also make these threads sound like GW burned your house down because it's not an S tier competitive unit. There is a grey area where they can be acceptable without being top of the pile, so where does that lay for you?

Alright lets break it down further than.

Chickenwalkers: 65pts 6 shots each, average 4 hits per turn. T6 6W 3+ save with ability to buff it to either a 2+ save or BS2+ for 5hits a turn.
Imperial Guard Heavy Weapons Squad: 50pts 6 shots, average 3 hits a turn T3 5+ save but also has 6 wounds over 3 models. As well as 3 ancillary lasguns.
Chaos Havoc: 125pts 8 shots, average 5.3 hits a turn. T5 3+ save, 5 wounds (soon to be 10).
Space Marines Suppressors: 100pts 9 shots, average 6 hits a turn. T4 6 wounds, 3+ save. Inherent ability to deny overwatch for this unit.
Lootas: 85pts 8 shots, 2.6 hits on average. T5 5 wounds 6+ save. Only inherent ability is 3 shots at half range.

Chickenwalkers are 1 hit per 16.25pts
Heavy Weapon Squads are 1 hit per 16.6pts
Havocs are 1 hit per 23.58pts
Suppressors are 1 hit per 16.6pts
Lootas are 1 hit per 32.69pts. But hey, if you get within half range it goes to 1 hit per 21.25pts.

On average, a loota at 25-48' range is literally 50% as effective as Chickenwalkers, HWS, and Suppressors. The only unit its remotely close to is Havocs who are still significantly better and a lot more durable and most importantly, haven't received their codex yet. I would like it if the unit which is SIGNIFICANTLY less durable be at least on par with their dmg potential. I know, its a lot to ask.

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Semper, what do you want exactly? What do you precieve lootas being able to do? And I won't accept "make them better" how many points of marines or whatever restrictions you want is a fair trade for them and what do they need to get there.

As others point out, comparing them to admech chickens isn't a good starting point as they're widely acknowledged as too efficient for the cost.

You often make complaints about ork units, they're often not the best units. But you also make these threads sound like GW burned your house down because it's not an S tier competitive unit. There is a grey area where they can be acceptable without being top of the pile, so where does that lay for you?

Alright lets break it down further than.

Chickenwalkers: 65pts 6 shots each, average 4 hits per turn. T6 6W 3+ save with ability to buff it to either a 2+ save or BS2+ for 5hits a turn.
Imperial Guard Heavy Weapons Squad: 50pts 6 shots, average 3 hits a turn T3 5+ save but also has 6 wounds over 3 models. As well as 3 ancillary lasguns.
Chaos Havoc: 125pts 8 shots, average 5.3 hits a turn. T5 3+ save, 5 wounds (soon to be 10).
Space Marines Suppressors: 100pts 9 shots, average 6 hits a turn. T4 6 wounds, 3+ save. Inherent ability to deny overwatch for this unit.
Lootas: 85pts 8 shots, 2.6 hits on average. T5 5 wounds 6+ save. Only inherent ability is 3 shots at half range.

Chickenwalkers are 1 hit per 16.25pts
Heavy Weapon Squads are 1 hit per 16.6pts
Havocs are 1 hit per 23.58pts
Suppressors are 1 hit per 16.6pts
Lootas are 1 hit per 32.69pts. But hey, if you get within half range it goes to 1 hit per 21.25pts.

On average, a loota at 25-48' range is literally 50% as effective as Chickenwalkers, HWS, and Suppressors. The only unit its remotely close to is Havocs who are still significantly better and a lot more durable and most importantly, haven't received their codex yet. I would like it if the unit which is SIGNIFICANTLY less durable be at least on par with their dmg potential. I know, its a lot to ask.

So you've still not given a finite answer. What is it you want lootas to be? More shots? Better BS and break the ork fluff? Cost less?

What level of "efficiency" makes them acceptable in a casual and competitive manner? You identified they're more efficient in half range than some of the units you listed, so maybe just give them more shots and remove dakka as the weapon type?

Dudeface wrote:

So you've still not given a finite answer. What is it you want lootas to be? More shots? Better BS and break the ork fluff? Cost less?

What level of "efficiency" makes them acceptable in a casual and competitive manner? You identified they're more efficient in half range than some of the units you listed, so maybe just give them more shots and remove dakka as the weapon type?

The only "unit" they are more efficient than at HALF range is Havocs who aren't updated for 9th edition yet, and not by much. Those havocs are also significantly more durable with their 3+ save. As far as answering your question, I think i did. I would like my fragile loota unit to at least be as efficient at killing as their counter-parts. If lootas went to Heavy 4 instead of Dakka 3(2) and went up to 18ppm they would average 1 hit per 16.8 which would put them in line with basically every other factions Auto-cannon style unit.

Or, if you really wanted them to stay unique with their new (Stupid) dakka weapons. Make them Dakka (5)3. So less efficient at max range but even MORE efficient if I bum rush them forward into enemy lines.

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

So you've still not given a finite answer. What is it you want lootas to be? More shots? Better BS and break the ork fluff? Cost less?

What level of "efficiency" makes them acceptable in a casual and competitive manner? You identified they're more efficient in half range than some of the units you listed, so maybe just give them more shots and remove dakka as the weapon type?

The only "unit" they are more efficient than at HALF range is Havocs who aren't updated for 9th edition yet, and not by much. Those havocs are also significantly more durable with their 3+ save. As far as answering your question, I think i did. I would like my fragile loota unit to at least be as efficient at killing as their counter-parts. If lootas went to Heavy 4 instead of Dakka 3(2) and went up to 18ppm they would average 1 hit per 16.8 which would put them in line with basically every other factions Auto-cannon style unit.

Or, if you really wanted them to stay unique with their new (Stupid) dakka weapons. Make them Dakka (5)3. So less efficient at max range but even MORE efficient if I bum rush them forward into enemy lines.

Another thought is that the spanna is the problem, in your maths the direct issue is you're paying for 5 lootas with 4 guns. Remove the spanna and they're down to 26pts at max range and 17 at half range, which is where you'd want them to be at (albeit with more moving parts). So maybe a light points reduction across the unit and if the spanna forges firing they get to use the max dakka profile?

Also heavy 4 at 18 points puts a unit of 9 at 15.2 per hit, so actually too good.

Dudeface wrote:


Another thought is that the spanna is the problem, in your maths the direct issue is you're paying for 5 lootas with 4 guns. Remove the spanna and they're down to 26pts at max range and 17 at half range, which is where you'd want them to be at (albeit with more moving parts). So maybe a light points reduction across the unit and if the spanna forges firing they get to use the max dakka profile?

Also heavy 4 at 18 points puts a unit of 9 at 15.2 per hit, so actuay too good.

Removing the Spanna and just making it 5 normal lootas...like we have done forever, makes it so that at 50% of the range Lootas are still paying 9pts per hit MORE than other armies with better defensive profiles and abilities and only paying slightly more at half range or less.

At Heavy 4 and 18ppm it would be 16 shots for 90pts (this includes the useless spanna). 16 shots = 5.33 hits. 90/5.33 = 16.88

The point remains though that as mentioned, Lootas are currently sitting at 32.69pph at 25-48' range and 21.25pph at half range. If you start stacking buffs they get more efficient, but the same is true for every other faction as well.

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Another thought is that the spanna is the problem, in your maths the direct issue is you're paying for 5 lootas with 4 guns. Remove the spanna and they're down to 26pts at max range and 17 at half range, which is where you'd want them to be at (albeit with more moving parts). So maybe a light points reduction across the unit and if the spanna forges firing they get to use the max dakka profile?

Also heavy 4 at 18 points puts a unit of 9 at 15.2 per hit, so actuay too good.

Removing the Spanna and just making it 5 normal lootas...like we have done forever, makes it so that at 50% of the range Lootas are still paying 9pts per hit MORE than other armies with better defensive profiles and abilities and only paying slightly more at half range or less.

At Heavy 4 and 18ppm it would be 16 shots for 90pts (this includes the useless spanna). 16 shots = 5.33 hits. 90/5.33 = 16.88

The point remains though that as mentioned, Lootas are currently sitting at 32.69pph at 25-48' range and 21.25pph at half range. If you start stacking buffs they get more efficient, but the same is true for every other faction as well.

They need a tweak but as I highlighted, heavy 4 has some ugly break point for unit sizes because of the spanna and tips them the other way.

Personally I like they're trying to encourage them to move and be aggressive with the dakka type, they've just messed the points cost or shot count up a little.

Dudeface wrote:


They need a tweak but as I highlighted, heavy 4 has some ugly break point for unit sizes because of the spanna and tips them the other way.

Personally I like they're trying to encourage them to move and be aggressive with the dakka type, they've just messed the points cost or shot count up a little.

The ugly tip point being taking 7 actual lootas and only 1 Spanner? At 18ppm that would be 15.42.....I don't see that as "ugly break point" I see that as fine. Especially when you consider that Orkz in general are atm basically the only army that actually gives a damn about Morale. Losing 3 models gives you a 50% chance to fail morale since that idiotic spanna is LD6.

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


They need a tweak but as I highlighted, heavy 4 has some ugly break point for unit sizes because of the spanna and tips them the other way.

Personally I like they're trying to encourage them to move and be aggressive with the dakka type, they've just messed the points cost or shot count up a little.

The ugly tip point being taking 7 actual lootas and only 1 Spanner? At 18ppm that would be 15.42.....I don't see that as "ugly break point" I see that as fine. Especially when you consider that Orkz in general are atm basically the only army that actually gives a damn about Morale. Losing 3 models gives you a 50% chance to fail morale since that idiotic spanna is LD6.

Cool, so you'd be happy for them to be the games most efficient autcannon platform with an ablative wound built in than can repair vehicles in a pinch and you'd want to buff their leadership as well?

For too long morale has been an utterly pointless phase and it's about time it mattered, I'm looking forwards to nids having to factor in some attrition as well.

I'd start considering a min squad of lootas at 15 ppm if they didn't have to take a spanner.

It's just that ap1 d2 with no way to buff ap and damage and hitting on 4s at best is not so great nowadays. But a min squad could find it's way jumping from behind a ruin to stand on a point cleared from mek guns t1.

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


They need a tweak but as I highlighted, heavy 4 has some ugly break point for unit sizes because of the spanna and tips them the other way.

Personally I like they're trying to encourage them to move and be aggressive with the dakka type, they've just messed the points cost or shot count up a little.

The ugly tip point being taking 7 actual lootas and only 1 Spanner? At 18ppm that would be 15.42.....I don't see that as "ugly break point" I see that as fine. Especially when you consider that Orkz in general are atm basically the only army that actually gives a damn about Morale. Losing 3 models gives you a 50% chance to fail morale since that idiotic spanna is LD6.

Cool, so you'd be happy for them to be the games most efficient autcannon platform with an ablative wound built in than can repair vehicles in a pinch and you'd want to buff their leadership as well?

For too long morale has been an utterly pointless phase and it's about time it mattered, I'm looking forwards to nids having to factor in some attrition as well.

Lets break that down shall we?

most efficient autocannon platform in the game.

At Heavy 4 with the "cheating the system" of 7 lootas and a spanner you get 28 shots for 144pts which works out to the aforementioned 15.42pts per hit (PPH). Which is 0.83pph better than Chickenwalkers, 1.08pph better than a heavy weapons squad and Space Marine suppressors. But at the same time those chickenwalkers can be self buffed with their own ability to BS2 which means they can be 13pph. But even ignoring that because I can hear you and others say "yeah but chickenwalkers are OP".

Those Lootas are T5 with a 6+ save. A single 5man unit of intercessors shooting them is 2.2 dead Lootas. That same unit targeting suppressors? 1.1dmg or not even 1 dead Model.

And even further. Nowhere did i say "buff leadership" i pointed out that Orkz are atm the only faction that truly cares about leadership, and since Lootas are LD6, if they lose 1 model they can fail morale, if they lose 3 they have a 50% chance to fail morale, and as pointed out above, they aren't durable with their 6+ save. So that "Ugly tipping point" is "ugly" in that it makes Lootas SLIGHTLY better than other weapon platforms but also opens them up to attrition deaths and morale deaths very easily.

its very telling that you think Lootas being 0.83 and 1.08pph better than other platforms is a massive deal but when they currently sit at 32.69pph or TWICE AS MUCH...they just need a little help.

Side Note: The spanna is useless fixing vehicles. Lootas are M5, our slowest competitive vehicles (buggies) are M10 minimum. They will literally be out of range turn 1. And since you can't fix a transport while embarked they can't even fix a trukk if they are in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
I'd start considering a min squad of lootas at 15 ppm if they didn't have to take a spanner.

It's just that ap1 d2 with no way to buff ap and damage and hitting on 4s at best is not so great nowadays. But a min squad could find it's way jumping from behind a ruin to stand on a point cleared from mek guns t1.

5 MSU lootas without the ridiculous Spanner requirement at 15ppm would be 75pts and with their current weapon profile work out to 22.5pph at 25-48' range and 15pph at 1-23' range. While this is way better than it currently is, i just don't like the fact that for our auto-cannons to be comparable to other faction equivalent units we have to be within half range.

Boards are small. 48 is overkill.

 koooaei wrote:
Boards are small. 48 is overkill.

Than get rid of the Dakka 3(2) profile and just make it a flat 3 since 48' doesn't matter. Plopping a unit on a piece of cover backfield that can snipe units/vehicles from across the board has always been useful, and even on our smaller boards its still very useful.

It's not proposed rules thread tho.