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Yeah, this seems to be a case of making sure you do your due diligence in reading up on the rules first and making sure you communicate effectively with your opponent so everyone is on the same page given that this is a narrative game and not even a matched play one.

Do what you want, but I would advise against drastically changing your list like that just because of a few games where lack of expertise as well as getting rules wrong are a factor just as strong as a mediocre list.

You bought the models, you painted them, you like them. Keep some in your list and learn to use them.

First off, sorry to hear you had a bad game.

I know that you had a narrative set up- this is something I can really relate; I love weird, thematic games and forces like this, so I totally get where you're coming from.

A few things though, that might be worth thinking about. It isn't that what happened was not suited to narrative: it's that it didn't match your specific preconceived notion of what the outcome would be.

And it's tough; some of the battles I stage are historical recreations of particular events in the history of my order, and you want them to unfold as the story is supposed to.

But narrative gaming works best when what happens on the table IS the narrative. So give that Daemon a name- it just took its first fledgling steps to the next rank.

Your surviving Paragon? Yeah, her suit's machine spirit has lost its faith in her; she has to take up the Penitent oath now.

Was the Canoness Martyred, or is she clinging to life? Perhaps the green Palatine who steps in to fill the void decides to guide the Order to a shrine where they can find a relic that will not only restore her health, but return her to the Emperor's grace.

Or perhaps the Ordo Hereticus will investigate this canoness and her failure- maybe you play a few games under the yoke of an Imperial Agent. And maybe that agent has access to a handful of Sisters of Silence or a Cullexus which could join for a repeat engagement with this upstart daemon in order to prevent him from achieving additional prestige, rank and power.

And if it was a Tzeetch Daemon in a Nurgle army, might the Changer of Ways think it's high time for the arrangement to become one where it's a case of having having a few Nurgle Daemons in a Tzeentch army?

I think there are dozens of story hooks in the game you describe. They just aren't the ones you expected. And while this one psychic power did have a disproportionate impact on your story, there's always going to be a chance of your narrative not going as planned any time you involve dice in storytelling..

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I'm pretty sure Paragon Warsuits are considered to be a burning pile of dogshit as far as competitive options are concerned.

Sucks because I like the models.

This. It wouldn't take much to fix them either. GW just need to buff their Wound and Attack characteristics to match Mortifiers and Penitent Engines. So giving Paragons 5 Wounds and 4 Attacks base (Superior gets 5 Attacks) would actually make them alright.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Yeah, I didn't read the whole wall of text, but if you're having problems against a psyker army, that's 100% something you fethed up.

Sisters have more tools to stop psykers than any other army in the game. With good positioning and a priest, for 1 CP you can shut off an entire psychic phase with the immune to psychic powers prayer.

Can you cast a prayer in your opponents turn, when he’s going first and is eighteen away from you?

If it’s like SM litanies… yes.

It’s at the start of the battle round, not your turn.

SM litanies are done at the beginning of your command phase and last until the beginning of your next command phase, so no.

Veldrain wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Yeah, I didn't read the whole wall of text, but if you're having problems against a psyker army, that's 100% something you fethed up.

Sisters have more tools to stop psykers than any other army in the game. With good positioning and a priest, for 1 CP you can shut off an entire psychic phase with the immune to psychic powers prayer.

Can you cast a prayer in your opponents turn, when he’s going first and is eighteen away from you?

If it’s like SM litanies… yes.

It’s at the start of the battle round, not your turn.

SM litanies are done at the beginning of your command phase and last until the beginning of your next command phase, so no.

Huh, really? I coulda sworn they were battle round.

They were that way for CSM prayers at least, right?

He killed three characters because mind control on the Canoness. My Canoness then killed a Palatine and Dogmata before being killed by Paragon Warsuits in turn 2.

How does this even work?

Treason of Tzeentch has a warp charge value of 8. If manifested, select an enemy CHARACTER that is within 18" of the psyker and visible to him (excluding the opponent’s Warlord) and roll 2D6. If the result is greater than the character’s Leadership characteristic, until the end of the following Fight phase treat that character as if it were a friendly model from your army in your Shooting, Charge and Fight phases.

So you're telling me that:
- Your opponent passed their psychic test (fair enough they're TSons).
- You failed to Deny with Sisters (unlucky).
- They rolled a 10 or higher to control your character on 2D6 (which shouldn't have happened because they're your warlord).
- Then somehow that Canoness killed BOTH a Palatine and a Dogmata, before being killed by the Paragons? All in the same turn? How is that even possible? A Canoness doesn't have the shooting power to kill either of those outright, so then how could a single model charge all 3 of those units to then split her attacks to kill both? How close were they to even make that kind of multi-charge?

PenitentJake wrote:
First off, sorry to hear you had a bad game.

I know that you had a narrative set up- this is something I can really relate; I love weird, thematic games and forces like this, so I totally get where you're coming from.

A few things though, that might be worth thinking about. It isn't that what happened was not suited to narrative: it's that it didn't match your specific preconceived notion of what the outcome would be.

And it's tough; some of the battles I stage are historical recreations of particular events in the history of my order, and you want them to unfold as the story is supposed to.

But narrative gaming works best when what happens on the table IS the narrative. So give that Daemon a name- it just took its first fledgling steps to the next rank.

Your surviving Paragon? Yeah, her suit's machine spirit has lost its faith in her; she has to take up the Penitent oath now.

Was the Canoness Martyred, or is she clinging to life? Perhaps the green Palatine who steps in to fill the void decides to guide the Order to a shrine where they can find a relic that will not only restore her health, but return her to the Emperor's grace.

Or perhaps the Ordo Hereticus will investigate this canoness and her failure- maybe you play a few games under the yoke of an Imperial Agent. And maybe that agent has access to a handful of Sisters of Silence or a Cullexus which could join for a repeat engagement with this upstart daemon in order to prevent him from achieving additional prestige, rank and power.

And if it was a Tzeetch Daemon in a Nurgle army, might the Changer of Ways think it's high time for the arrangement to become one where it's a case of having having a few Nurgle Daemons in a Tzeentch army?

I think there are dozens of story hooks in the game you describe. They just aren't the ones you expected. And while this one psychic power did have a disproportionate impact on your story, there's always going to be a chance of your narrative not going as planned any time you involve dice in storytelling..

I might do something with the Herald. Could prompt my mate to make a Lord of Change.

Well the Canoness was one of the few things cleaved in two by a Paragon Warsuit so she’s not feeling very well.. Apparently killing a Canoness is way easier than a Plaguebearer. But even if I hand waved that with an “emergency teleport homer” or being knocked out. It was far too extreme to spin the character being a martyr or working it into some sort of redemption arc. For one, I really think the character would just blow their own brains out. But second, her troops would just kill her. You go in the Repentia for running away. Killing a standard Sister puts you in the Iron coffin of a mortifier. Being temporarily possessed and butchering your own Dogmata and Palatine? No coming back from that. I really doubt the character would have a legacy after going down like that. The sort of suggestions you have work for lesser crimes like oh you lost us a major battle or relic.

There had to be consequence to losing the battle. Especially at the end act 2. I couldn’t have it be where, I win Daemons are pushed of this moon and if you win; status quo. The consequence was always going to be extreme. Keeping the Sisters in the campaign and writing in another character to fill the same role just wouldn’t really be the right thing to do. Doing that would have diminished the consequence of the Demons winning. It shouldnt be a case of: well the Sisters hammered the Daemons and Eldar last time so they can’t be knocked out. So the Sisters on the moon were all killed in the attack, Daemons swept out the portal and massacred the human population; now risks major warp breach.

But yeah the Sisters are out the campaign. Once I have my Grey Knights done they’ll have a crack at the portal and if that doesn’t work moon gets dragged into the warp.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jarms48 wrote:

He killed three characters because mind control on the Canoness. My Canoness then killed a Palatine and Dogmata before being killed by Paragon Warsuits in turn 2.

How does this even work?

Treason of Tzeentch has a warp charge value of 8. If manifested, select an enemy CHARACTER that is within 18" of the psyker and visible to him (excluding the opponent’s Warlord) and roll 2D6. If the result is greater than the character’s Leadership characteristic, until the end of the following Fight phase treat that character as if it were a friendly model from your army in your Shooting, Charge and Fight phases.

So you're telling me that:
- Your opponent passed their psychic test (fair enough they're TSons).
- You failed to Deny with Sisters (unlucky).
- They rolled a 10 or higher to control your character on 2D6 (which shouldn't have happened because they're your warlord).
- Then somehow that Canoness killed BOTH a Palatine and a Dogmata, before being killed by the Paragons? All in the same turn? How is that even possible? A Canoness doesn't have the shooting power to kill either of those outright, so then how could a single model charge all 3 of those units to then split her attacks to kill both? How close were they to even make that kind of multi-charge?

It was a Daemon Herald of Tz

It was actually the 5 plus from Sacred Rites everyone says is amazing if you roll above 4…

The characters were clumped behind a unit of Celestians and two Paragons. This was for screening and buffing purposes. That front line had been shredded by psychics, a KOS, some DG shooting and a Plaguebearer squad so a Herald further back could see the Canoness.

Actually the Canoness fired an inferno pistol which could have killed a character (Had got a lucky shot earlier on that KoS) but didn’t because invulnerable. Had he done that, well the Canoness would have shot the Dogmata and multi charged the Palatine and Imagifier instead. Really could have been four dead characters here.

The Canoness in question had righteous rage meaning she rerolls hits and wounds. This is with a Sacred Blade, the str boost from an Imagifier and the Blessing of the Faithful Rapturous Blows which further ups her str and damage. This means she has a str7 ap-3 3 damage sword. Two attacks each killed both characters even with a boosted shield of faith save. She had been kitted out to have a go fighting a Greater Daemon so killing two T3 characters isn’t that difficult.

She was then consolidated into the remaining two paragon Warsuits on the other side of what had been the formation. They then hit her with 9 str6 attacks which even with her having a thing which means she only takes one damage on each attack and a Rosarius they still managed to kill her. Be real nice if they could do that to enemy models instead of bouncing off Plaguebearer and Blight Drone squads.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Veldrain wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Yeah, I didn't read the whole wall of text, but if you're having problems against a psyker army, that's 100% something you fethed up.

Sisters have more tools to stop psykers than any other army in the game. With good positioning and a priest, for 1 CP you can shut off an entire psychic phase with the immune to psychic powers prayer.

Can you cast a prayer in your opponents turn, when he’s going first and is eighteen away from you?

If it’s like SM litanies… yes.

It’s at the start of the battle round, not your turn.

SM litanies are done at the beginning of your command phase and last until the beginning of your next command phase, so no.

Huh, really? I coulda sworn they were battle round.

They were that way for CSM prayers at least, right?

Dark Apostles chant at the start of the round, yeah. The DA's rules haven't been updated since 8th so I'd expect them to be in the command phase once that happens, especially since the Infernal Master is also in the command phase.