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Daedalus81 wrote: 3 months is the sweet spot. Faster than that and it becomes even harder to stay on top of things.
What I mean is: The quarterly patch drops today and tomorrow Dhrukari and their supplement are released. I think people would appreciate a response after the first two weekends of sweeping GT victories instead of waiting 3 months.
At most you wait 3 months for something to be reigned in.
And the best news is that it will be a digital update, since there is no chance for them to print, ship and sell books to provide quarterly updates. It means that they are not going to fix the problems of six months and further in the past, since they needed the time to physically produce the books.
Hopefully it means that they are able to stay on top of things and update the game in a timely manner.
Well that assumes gwdev's aren't total morons. If they aren't they know problems well before it's even released so could be producing next quarter lhanges well in advance.
Occam's famous prhase should be renamed "Nottingham's Razor".
Thing is they have been deliberately pulling up nose of the "tsport" fans for ages. The players don't actually want balance and are just chasing meta lists so GW figured out good way to exploit that for £££££. Make something OP, nerf it later, make another thing OP. Things go in circles and tsport wannabe's just keep chasing the newest hotness spending more cash. And GW goes "just as planned".
You think this was unintended from GW? Things are going just as planned.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Glad to see that the internet agitation succeeded, hopefully people won't let up and we can continue to pressure GW to actually fix their game.
This is good.
Expect they didn't really fix some of it, Buggies are limit to 3 and flyers to 2, which is a bad way to balance the game if the idea is to play what you want. I'd rather they just nerf the points or datasheet changes.
So IDK if i like this fix honestly. What else are they goig to do in the future if 1 thing is too strong? Whats next Dreadknights and Dreadnoughts limited to 2 per army?
There are plenty of similar restrictions like Warbosses, Daemon Princes, Commanders, chaff to core infantry ratios, and Rule of 3. This is nothing new.
There is not, those rules work completely differently and orks are literally asking for buggies to work like those rules instead of having the arbitrarily limited by a rule that is worse in every possible way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/10 07:41:02
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
tneva82 wrote: You think this was unintended from GW? Things are going just as planned.
This.
Lots of otherwise quite smart people still seem to be under the impression that GW's goal is to create a "balanced game". It's not. Their priority is getting you to buy more product. Which means they can't allow you to just use the same models for years and years. GW wants you to feel the need to buy new models regularly because they've made your existing models uncompetitive or even flat-out unusable.
A quarterly "balance patch" isn't to benefit you the customer/player, it's to benefit GW's bottom line. Your armies now have a three-month lifespan before you need to re-jig them and (hopefully, from GW's POV) buy new models to keep them functional.
And before anybody jumps in to defend the poor, abused, multi-million-pound, FTSE-250-listed corporate behemoth, none of this is intended as any kind of moral judgement. It's just how capitalism works. GW aren't your friends, they're just a business.
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
GWs lack of balance or interesting gameplay made me stop buying models from them though. When I did enjoy the game I'd buy redundant models and start new armies all the time, so their plan isn't working.
Only read the rules affecting orks and I like this patch.
Capping flyers to 1 or 2 was something I've always wanted and the buggy patch could have been handled a bit better by restricting the number of models for each buggy variant to 3 per army rather than one unit of 1-3 models per army but I'm ok with that as well.
I'd honestly like to see more limitations like these ones in the future.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Glad to see that the internet agitation succeeded, hopefully people won't let up and we can continue to pressure GW to actually fix their game.
This is good.
In the same breath there are some people on the internets claiming this is worse because books are outdated faster, they can't keep track etc. so impossible to please everyone. Just glad they made these optional so it's down to each group how current they stay.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Can’t run all my mek guns, can’t run all my buggies, can’t run all my war bosses.
I guess next edition I’ll only be able to take 10 boyz?
They can throw the "balance card" but it's just another way to push players to buy more kits, for those units they don't have. Although I think GW shouldn't have allowed that amount of spam in the first place. Older editions of 40k, before allowing multiple detachments, all had a cap of 9 artillery models or buggies and 2 warbosses.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/10 08:12:05
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Can’t run all my mek guns, can’t run all my buggies, can’t run all my war bosses.
I guess next edition I’ll only be able to take 10 boyz?
They can throw the "balance card" but it's just another way to push players to buy more kits, for those units they don't have. Although I think GW shouldn't have allowed that amount of spam in the first place. Older editions of 40k, before allowing multiple detachments, all had a cap of 9 artillery models or buggies and 2 warbosses.
The squadrons of buggies didn't really make sense to begin with, they were pretty much asking for people to spam 9 of the best one. If they did want to squadron them to enable speed freek style lists, they should just have called the datasheet a "buggy mob" and then allow 0-1 for each of them, or add a rule like the DG's Foetid Virion.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
I agree, those are models with a base size of a knight basically, just one inch smaller.
The moment GW decided they all needed a separate datasheet they should have never been allowed in squadrons, but the same thing can be said for a plethora of other vehicles that shouldn't be squadrons as well, and those buggies were the shiny new models; GW wanted to sell them as much as possible.
Blackie wrote: I agree, those are models with a base size of a knight basically, just one inch smaller.
The moment GW decided they all needed a separate datasheet they should have never been allowed in squadrons, but the same thing can be said for a plethora of other vehicles that shouldn't be squadrons as well, and those buggies were the shiny new models; GW wanted to sell them as much as possible.
And now they've determined that sales of 2/3 of those buggy kits need a boost.
tneva82 wrote: You think this was unintended from GW? Things are going just as planned.
This.
Lots of otherwise quite smart people still seem to be under the impression that GW's goal is to create a "balanced game". It's not. Their priority is getting you to buy more product. Which means they can't allow you to just use the same models for years and years. GW wants you to feel the need to buy new models regularly because they've made your existing models uncompetitive or even flat-out unusable.
A quarterly "balance patch" isn't to benefit you the customer/player, it's to benefit GW's bottom line. Your armies now have a three-month lifespan before you need to re-jig them and (hopefully, from GW's POV) buy new models to keep them functional.
And before anybody jumps in to defend the poor, abused, multi-million-pound, FTSE-250-listed corporate behemoth, none of this is intended as any kind of moral judgement. It's just how capitalism works. GW aren't your friends, they're just a business.
Long time players should have realised by now that spammed units have a short expiration date. "Rule of 2" isn't working just for the Sith .
It is more the game's fault than on the players, as one factor or another incentivises spamming the best units, but if you limit yourself, neither these balance patches nor any codex update will effect you much.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/10 09:00:53
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
Long time players should have realised by now that spammed units have a short expiration date. "Rule of 2" isn't working just for the Sith .
It is more the game's fault than on the players, as one factor or another incentivises spamming the best units, but if you limit yourself, neither these balance patches nor any codex update will effect you much.
Exactly. The ork roster is so wide that you can reach over 10k of stuff without having more than 3 of the same single model units or more than 3 maxed out infantry units. Probably even just 2 of each choice in the codex. Not even counting Forge World.
And since average ork model is quite cheap that already means a bazillion of models before start spamming stuff.
Insectum7 wrote: This is a nice move by GW, with some pretty surprising adjustments.
Leman Russes to 2+ is dope. Necron CORE keyword to various units is great.
The Ork adjustment comes as a real surprise. That's a pretty unprecedented restriction. I can see the spirit/merit of it, but it's still a bit heavy handed. I have mixed feelings about it.
Yeah I don't like some of the changes, even if the buggies were a pain in the butt. All it means is people should be real leery of picking up more than an average amount of any unit that isn't troops. It would be like them taking away tank squadrons for guard now, I'd have so many wasted tanks, I'd probably rage pretty hard. They already did that with heavy weapon squads, now valks, and commissars which could at one time be taken as a squad upgrade leaving me with a ton of useless commissars.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Glad to see that the internet agitation succeeded, hopefully people won't let up and we can continue to pressure GW to actually fix their game.
This is good.
In the same breath there are some people on the internets claiming this is worse because books are outdated faster, they can't keep track etc. so impossible to please everyone. Just glad they made these optional so it's down to each group how current they stay.
Some people, like me, just don't want to charged through the nose for books rendered into trash twice a year now, by the time you reach the end of an edition will almost anything in a written codex even be accurate at that point ? While I appreciate balance, the books better cost a hell of a lot less soon or they should expect 90% of the player base to pirate. ( I'm not saying they should btw but they are then charging you top dollar for junk at that point. )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/10 09:45:34
Unit1126PLL wrote: Glad to see that the internet agitation succeeded, hopefully people won't let up and we can continue to pressure GW to actually fix their game.
This is good.
Expect they didn't really fix some of it, Buggies are limit to 3 and flyers to 2, which is a bad way to balance the game if the idea is to play what you want. I'd rather they just nerf the points or datasheet changes.
So IDK if i like this fix honestly. What else are they goig to do in the future if 1 thing is too strong? Whats next Dreadknights and Dreadnoughts limited to 2 per army?
nerfing points means we're simply waiting for the next OP plane to show up. The aircraft rules themselves are a problem. Since a full redesign of the rules is beyond what GW wants from this emergency update the logical choice is to limit all aircraft until such a time as the aircraft rules can be changed.
By degrees I'd like the codexes to remain accurate as long as possible - and not effectively be wrong 2 weeks on release. I do feel 40k is hard to keep up with unless you are effectively living it day in, day out.
In practice however I know that keeping the codexes sacrosanct just produces a terribly balanced game which usually ceases to be fun to play.
I feel a 3 month take on the meta is probably about right. I know there are people who expect GW to make very rapid changes to the game, almost reacting to each week of grand tournaments, (i.e. X was a bit good in the finals on Sunday, so someone in Nottingham needs to get in the office and nerf it on Monday) but I just don't think is realistic - or necesarilly sensible.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Glad to see that the internet agitation succeeded, hopefully people won't let up and we can continue to pressure GW to actually fix their game.
This is good.
Expect they didn't really fix some of it, Buggies are limit to 3 and flyers to 2, which is a bad way to balance the game if the idea is to play what you want. I'd rather they just nerf the points or datasheet changes.
So IDK if i like this fix honestly. What else are they goig to do in the future if 1 thing is too strong? Whats next Dreadknights and Dreadnoughts limited to 2 per army?
nerfing points means we're simply waiting for the next OP plane to show up. The aircraft rules themselves are a problem. Since a full redesign of the rules is beyond what GW wants from this emergency update the logical choice is to limit all aircraft until such a time as the aircraft rules can be changed.
No, just raise the points and then work on a faq later, this effects all players, what about guard that uses Scions and 6 flyers? Its a bad way to balance the game. Are flyer rules broken? Maybe, but if they were so broken why do we not see every list with flyers and not just the 2 that are 40-50pts under costed? Look at DE, their flyers went down and yet no one still wants to take them.
This is showing me that GW can't handle their own game.
PS: Yes nerfing points ALWAYS means waiting for the next op thing...... thats how 40k has always worked, take the best thing for the points..... it most likely will be GK Dreadknights now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/10 12:15:17
The current state of my Drukhari codex which has been "rendered trash" is... One page of errata printed, folded and inserted in the front and one page of points changes likewise printed, folded and inserted in the points chart section.
Strangely, I do not find this taxing to work with and well worth the price in effort to get a "somewhat-live" treatment of the game's more egregious peaks and valleys.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/10 13:12:31
Unit1126PLL wrote: Glad to see that the internet agitation succeeded, hopefully people won't let up and we can continue to pressure GW to actually fix their game.
This is good.
In the same breath there are some people on the internets claiming this is worse because books are outdated faster, they can't keep track etc. so impossible to please everyone. Just glad they made these optional so it's down to each group how current they stay.
Those people have a point too.
GW should release balanced codexes from the start so they don't HAVE to invalidate them with a balance patch.
That argument is not inconsistent with "well they did a gakky job on the dexes so a balance patch is good". It's just the next step: "maybe don't do a gakky job on the dexes."
Long time players should have realised by now that spammed units have a short expiration date. "Rule of 2" isn't working just for the Sith .
It is more the game's fault than on the players, as one factor or another incentivises spamming the best units, but if you limit yourself, neither these balance patches nor any codex update will effect you much.
Exactly. The ork roster is so wide that you can reach over 10k of stuff without having more than 3 of the same single model units or more than 3 maxed out infantry units. Probably even just 2 of each choice in the codex. Not even counting Forge World.
And since average ork model is quite cheap that already means a bazillion of models before start spamming stuff.
I can third this. If your codex is sufficiently well balanced having one or two of every choice not just protects you from GW swinging the banhammer around, it also makes for more enjoyable games.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: There is not, those rules work completely differently and orks are literally asking for buggies to work like those rules instead of having the arbitrarily limited by a rule that is worse in every possible way.
We agree that it could have been handled differently. Daemon Princes saw a similar, but lighter consequence in 8th, because of the extra "data sheets". Again not the same, but it was something that needs addressing. I don't think it's great to expect Ork players to own 9 of a buggy and GW needs to just tweak the data sheet.
tneva82 wrote: You think this was unintended from GW? Things are going just as planned.
This.
Lots of otherwise quite smart people still seem to be under the impression that GW's goal is to create a "balanced game". It's not. Their priority is getting you to buy more product. Which means they can't allow you to just use the same models for years and years. GW wants you to feel the need to buy new models regularly because they've made your existing models uncompetitive or even flat-out unusable.
A quarterly "balance patch" isn't to benefit you the customer/player, it's to benefit GW's bottom line. Your armies now have a three-month lifespan before you need to re-jig them and (hopefully, from GW's POV) buy new models to keep them functional.
And before anybody jumps in to defend the poor, abused, multi-million-pound, FTSE-250-listed corporate behemoth, none of this is intended as any kind of moral judgement. It's just how capitalism works. GW aren't your friends, they're just a business.
Oh man. I dearly missed this pile on confirmation bias. So we figure GW made all the sales of buggies it wanted in two months when they can barely keep up with the new releases? Solid capitalism right there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: That argument is not inconsistent with "well they did a gakky job on the dexes so a balance patch is good". It's just the next step: "maybe don't do a gakky job on the dexes."
Baby steps. We just need to kill the supplement craze.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/10 13:26:57
a_typical_hero wrote: Long time players should have realised by now that spammed units have a short expiration date. "Rule of 2" isn't working just for the Sith .
It is more the game's fault than on the players, as one factor or another incentivises spamming the best units, but if you limit yourself, neither these balance patches nor any codex update will effect you much.
*laughs in 40+ Warbikers*
Honestly, i have an above average collection of ork models, I am well aware of that. But I am not happy with some of my units getting retroactively cut into pieces. This edition I lost the ability to take some of my warbikers, mek gunz, flyers and stormboyz. I have 3 buggies total in my army, all scrapjetz, because I think the rest look like crap and I am somewhat big on aesthetics for my army. I had planned on getting another skwadron of Scrapjets and another flyer or two eventually. I had also planned on getting more mek gunz to get to the old maximum of 18. All of those plans have since been cancelled because I don't want to add units I can't use to my army when I have units I can use but don't own yet.
Weird, the skrapjet is honestly among my least favorite buggies. I love the Boomdakka Snazzwagon and boosta-blasta.
BDSW is to me exactly what the essential ork buggy should be, the only flaw is the two elements that are too distinctive of the ork about to fling a molotov cocktail and the grot strapped to the front (though he can at least easily be left off the model, you have to do a bit more work to alter the gunner)
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Long time players should have realised by now that spammed units have a short expiration date. "Rule of 2" isn't working just for the Sith .
It is more the game's fault than on the players, as one factor or another incentivises spamming the best units, but if you limit yourself, neither these balance patches nor any codex update will effect you much.
Exactly. The ork roster is so wide that you can reach over 10k of stuff without having more than 3 of the same single model units or more than 3 maxed out infantry units. Probably even just 2 of each choice in the codex. Not even counting Forge World.
And since average ork model is quite cheap that already means a bazillion of models before start spamming stuff.
Orks have literally been “spamming” stuff since third edition. Orks just kinda skew, it’s how you do well with them. Taking a rounded ork list results in big deff.
It’s not even that we’re limited to 3 of one type, it’s that you have to keep knight bases in cohesion up the table.
"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos
Long time players should have realised by now that spammed units have a short expiration date. "Rule of 2" isn't working just for the Sith .
It is more the game's fault than on the players, as one factor or another incentivises spamming the best units, but if you limit yourself, neither these balance patches nor any codex update will effect you much.
Exactly. The ork roster is so wide that you can reach over 10k of stuff without having more than 3 of the same single model units or more than 3 maxed out infantry units. Probably even just 2 of each choice in the codex. Not even counting Forge World.
And since average ork model is quite cheap that already means a bazillion of models before start spamming stuff.
Orks have literally been “spamming” stuff since third edition. Orks just kinda skew, it’s how you do well with them. Taking a rounded ork list results in big deff.
It’s not even that we’re limited to 3 of one type, it’s that you have to keep knight bases in cohesion up the table.
Theyre not knight sized tho. And just have them be in a line, easy coherency since you can't get to 6 models and get fethed by the 9th ed coherency rules.
And orks needing to spam stuff is still a gak way for the codex to be.
But yeah, GW probably shouldve just upped the cost of the buggies A LOT.
Listen, I’ve picked up some armigers to loot, these things are knight sized.
Also, if you’re all concerned about orks shooting things off turn one, prepare for when Tau come out
"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Listen, I’ve picked up some armigers to loot, these things are knight sized.
Also, if you’re all concerned about orks shooting things off turn one, prepare for when Tau come out
At least you'll be able to hide from Tau's firepower considering their only non-LOS guns are the Airburst and smart missiles, both of which don't have real AP or Damage
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Listen, I’ve picked up some armigers to loot, these things are knight sized.
Also, if you’re all concerned about orks shooting things off turn one, prepare for when Tau come out
At least you'll be able to hide from Tau's firepower considering their only non-LOS guns are the Airburst and smart missiles, both of which don't have real AP or Damage
I bet you they get some shenanigans. Maybe guard then?, gonna be one of the last codexes, and oh boy, the basilisks…
"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Listen, I’ve picked up some armigers to loot, these things are knight sized.
Also, if you’re all concerned about orks shooting things off turn one, prepare for when Tau come out
At least you'll be able to hide from Tau's firepower considering their only non-LOS guns are the Airburst and smart missiles, both of which don't have real AP or Damage
I bet you they get some shenanigans. Maybe guard then?, gonna be one of the last codexes, and oh boy, the basilisks…
guard for sure is gonna be annoying, but so far the artillery in the game seems to have been taken down a notch (rukkatrukks being the exception) compared to 8th. I wouldnt be surprised if basilisks didnt receive massive buffs, especially not now that GW seems to have realised that ignoring terrain is kind of OP (which we know they do because of the changes to planes)
The terrain rules in 9th are kind of stupid tbh, I kind of wish they’d go back to the old system of doing it.
Was playing a game with my first time friend and it was really confusing for him.
"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos
.
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Honestly, i have an above average collection of ork models, I am well aware of that. But I am not happy with some of my units getting retroactively cut into pieces. This edition I lost the ability to take some of my warbikers, mek gunz, flyers and stormboyz. I have 3 buggies total in my army, all scrapjetz, because I think the rest look like crap and I am somewhat big on aesthetics for my army. I had planned on getting another skwadron of Scrapjets and another flyer or two eventually. I had also planned on getting more mek gunz to get to the old maximum of 18. All of those plans have since been cancelled because I don't want to add units I can't use to my army when I have units I can use but don't own yet.
