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Automatically Appended Next Post: Drukari, greyknights, and knights seem to be well ahead of the rest
No ad mech but the highest ranked 2-1 is admech so may still be in finals
Sisters no where to be found
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/11/21 04:58:22
2021/11/20 13:18:22
Subject: US OPEN Austin (day 1;results who are 3-0)
Interesting that DE doesn't seem to care much about the nerfs while Admech has dropped off.
DE got just as many buffs to strong units.
I expect an admech player to make the final cut
I thought we would get more nids w hive guard spam
I have a feeling without ad mech or orks drukari is about to assert thier dominance on the meta. Maybe a grey knight army will sneak in there a few times.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/20 20:51:05
2021/11/20 16:19:32
Subject: US OPEN Austin (day 1;results who are 3-0)
Interesting that DE doesn't seem to care much about the nerfs while Admech has dropped off.
Nids seem to currently be riding the wave of their new updates with 18 Hive Guard buffed in various ways being the new hotness. Time will tell if it's actually as good as it seems but at the moment it looks like another case of the GW balance whack-a-mole game in full swing.
2021/11/21 03:09:59
Subject: Re:US OPEN Austin (day 1;results who are 3-0)
Togusa wrote: Why are they called "Forces of the Hive Mind" are they changing the name Tyranids now?
The current competitive build for Nids includes a Cult of the 4-Armed Emperor detachment to enable them to block out their deployment zone with ambush blips and for access to the anti-strat stratagem.
2 out of 4 of the undefeated players are nids+ cult, now that seems more like what I was expecting. Let’s hope nids get GW’s attention soon enough, it is no fun at all to face 12 or 18 HGs unless you are an IKnight player (and even then…)
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
Very interesting to see how admech completely dropped out of the equation, same with freebooterz. GW I feel made an error with Drukhari by lowering some of the Coven points too quickly before seeing results of upping wych/kabal points. That should have been done in sequence after seeing results of initial change (whether Coven would be seen more with first changes).
Hive Guard just don't seem fun to play at all but at least they are not completely dominating the top so no worries just yet.
Not a single marine army in sight (GK are their own faction), that's a real shame. I wonder if the lack of poster boy presence will affect some changes for them?
The black Templar codex just missed the cut for this tournament… they seem strong so not sure if it’s able to crack the top bracket. They should be right below the big 3 drukari, Tyranids and grey knights… knights, orks ad mech and Templars should be about the same.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/21 16:22:17
2021/11/21 18:51:19
Subject: US OPEN Austin (day 1;results who are 3-0)
Interesting that DE doesn't seem to care much about the nerfs while Admech has dropped off.
Nids seem to currently be riding the wave of their new updates with 18 Hive Guard buffed in various ways being the new hotness. Time will tell if it's actually as good as it seems but at the moment it looks like another case of the GW balance whack-a-mole game in full swing.
Do we actually know what the Tyranids lists are? I think 18 Hive Guard is a little extreme...and that’s coming from a Tyranids player. Not to mention BORING.
The only undefeated now is mani— however the next 2 placings tied sooo technically they didn’t lose either. Those are Siegler (drukari) and Lennon (hive mind again). Seiglers list is interesting but most people really want to know about Tyranids since they are new. And 4 of top 8 are drukari soooo (1 grey knight and 1 imperial knight army left to round out the top)… good bye orks we hardly knew ye well… quickest nerf bat ever!
Mani list
gungo wrote: The only undefeated now is mani— however the next 2 placings tied sooo technically they didn’t lose either. Those are Siegler (drukari) and Lennon (hive mind again). Seiglers list is interesting but most people really want to know about Tyranids since they are new. And 4 of top 8 are drukari soooo (1 grey knight and 1 imperial knight army left to round out the top)… good bye orks we hardly knew ye well… quickest nerf bat ever!
Mani list
Wow, I actually like Lennon’s list. I think I would have traded the patrol though for probably a Maleceptor for more hivemind extension + beatstick. Lots of tools to get objectives covered. The Mani Hive Guard list... not so much. Either way, I believe the Nerf Hammer will come to the Tyranids when their codex finally gets released. Say goodbye to 3 squads of six Hive Guard. Octarius Book is a test bed for things to come...I’m in the belief the hoard style play will be the new hotness.
The point changes were probably correct.
In fact you will notice that none of the nerfed Drukhari units features in Siegler's list.
The problem is just that as we already knew, the Drukhari dex is incredibly deep, and you nerf one build only to discover that there was a second one almost as good as the first one ready to take its place.
This coven heavy build isn't the result of the buffs to Chronos and grots. All in all it gained 55 points which isn't enough to take one list from average to GT winning.
This coven build had always been there, lurking in the shadows.
Still, I have to say that it makes for a lot more interesting games than the previous ultra lethal one, so that's definitely a step in the right direction.
I would also refrain from calling this build too good. I want the data on average drukhari wins in the event. There is nothing wrong if a faction can be very good when in the hands of the top players, as long as the average power of that faction isn't that high.
Dude drukari is clearly stronger then any other codex… in fact the winner of this tournament made this list to make a point. Covens were already being taken in winning lists before their points drop. As you stated NONE of the points drop were necessary.
Drukari had the highest win rate even before nerfing ad mech and orks which at that time were the only factions beating them… so when you nerf thier only counters you are left with a truly oppressive list. There is no time or refraining needed; this has been going on for over 9 months. drukari need a points hike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/22 07:50:06
After administering a nerf you always wait for the effects before planning more changes.
We have the stats for this week, and indeed DE are still winning a bit too much (nothing really outrageous though), so some more changes could be needed.
That said, they are a minor problem. Grey Knights are where the cheese is right now.
Gretknights had 1 army in top 10. Drukari 5.
Greyknights issue is mainly 1 unit that people max out. It’s kind silly since it’s basically 2 dataslates that are essentially the same thing. If they limited it to 1 grandmaster in suit per army it would make sense thematically and fix the spam a bit still keep greyknights competitive. Tyranids issue is again 1 unit that’s underpriced, hive guard…
Now drukari like admech before are underpriced almost across the board. The need a points hike. This isn’t new data this has been going on for 9 months. Ffs they emergency nerfed orks 2 weeks after 1 tournament win. Where was your wait and see mantra then.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/22 15:41:12
What we're seeing is yet more problems caused by the combination of terrible (or completely absent) playtesting and the lack of depth in the core rules. With the core rules being so shallow they simply don't have the capacity to account for non-LoS shooting, or Flyer spam or the myriad other issues we've seen exploited by many armies, so it all has to be done at the Codex level. Then, as soon as something gets that little push into broken territory, we see it get spammed in tournament lists.
I think the HG spam is a core rules problem, much like Flyer spam was. DE are more just a problem of being far too cheap across too many units and GK have a similar problem, just with 2 specific datasheets. I'm not sure why GK don't have a 1 Grand Master limit per detachment (unless they do and armies are just taking multiple detachmanets) but it's clear the NDK should be considered a single dataslate for RO3.
gungo wrote:Gretknights had 1 army in top 10. Drukari 5.
Greyknights issue is mainly 1 unit that people max out. It’s kind silly since it’s basically 2 dataslates that are essentially the same thing. If they limited it to 1 grandmaster in suit per army it would make sense thematically and fix the spam a bit still keep greyknights competitive. Tyranids issue is again 1 unit that’s underpriced, hive guard…
Now drukari like admech before are underpriced almost across the board. The need a points hike. This isn’t new data this has been going on for 9 months. Ffs they emergency nerfed orks 2 weeks after 1 tournament win. Where was your wait and see mantra then.
You are looking at a single event.
GK are winning a lot more events than Drukhari right now. This week they won double the events than DE, and are featuring in top ranks much more frequently than DE.
DE are now a strong faction, which is still above the tollerance level, but definitely not the biggest balance issue at the moment.
Slipspace wrote:What we're seeing is yet more problems caused by the combination of terrible (or completely absent) playtesting and the lack of depth in the core rules. With the core rules being so shallow they simply don't have the capacity to account for non-LoS shooting, or Flyer spam or the myriad other issues we've seen exploited by many armies, so it all has to be done at the Codex level. Then, as soon as something gets that little push into broken territory, we see it get spammed in tournament lists.
I think the HG spam is a core rules problem, much like Flyer spam was. DE are more just a problem of being far too cheap across too many units and GK have a similar problem, just with 2 specific datasheets. I'm not sure why GK don't have a 1 Grand Master limit per detachment (unless they do and armies are just taking multiple detachmanets) but it's clear the NDK should be considered a single dataslate for RO3.
No issues with no LoS shooting. We had it for more than an year before it started being an issue.
HG too isn't an issue.
Single Minded Annihilation is THE issue. The whole problem of HG and Devilgants is there. Remove that stratagem and the nid codex is no longer a problem.
Hive guard were strong prior to the campaign and the only real unit keeping Tyranids in any competitive conversation before then they got a few more buffs including single minded annihilation- shoot twice with a tyranid unit. I mean it’s nice but not the reason reason why hive guard are OP. They are cheap durable hard hitting out of LOS units like squigbuggies (which didn’t have a shoot twice strat and still got nerfed) .
And drukari are horribly underpriced still.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/22 21:08:56
bullyboy wrote: Not familiar with the strats and new rules in Octarius, but I was wondering what propelled Nids to the fore again, especially HG?
As for Drukhari, it was beyond dumb to drop points on Talos and coven units at same time as repointing wyches and kabalites.
Octarius gave nids a lot of ways to buff units.
Problem is that Hyve Guards come in big units, and love all of those buffs.
Then SMA takes whatever thing is hot in nids in that moment and doubles it.
Right now those HG have exploding 6s, rerolling all hits, rerolling damage, with additional -1AP on 6 to wound... and doing this twice.
The base datasheet isn't that bad, 2 attacks at S8 -2 Dd3 for 45 point, but when you stack all of those buffs together, you start deleting stuff left and right.
As a pure Tyranid Hive Fleet Behemoth player (the prettiest hive fleet). I'm a bit sad. I hate spamming lists and struggle to compete with the newer/updated armies.
Then the Octarius Leviathan book comes out which I cant really use.
I have one unit of six hive guard. And now due to this new book its probably going mean they need rebalancing based on rules that I don't benefit from :(
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/24 12:06:18
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obsidianaura wrote: As a pure Tyranid Hive Fleet Behemoth player (the prettiest hive fleet). I'm a bit sad. I hate spamming lists and struggle to compete with the newer/updated armies.
Then the Octarius Leviathan book comes out which I cant really use.
I have one unit of six hive guard. And now due to this new book its probably going mean they need rebalancing based on rules that I don't benefit from :(
That's the flipside of all these chapter/whatever bonuses you get for free.
This was easily predicted when they first started appearing and which is why I wasn't fan of them. But supposedly they are needed to have "fluffy" forces despite them being actually less than fluffy like white scars when they encouraged all bike armies when in reality it was tactical squads that were mainstay of white scar armies in fluff...
But players just want free buffs. Fluff or what's good for game can go to hell. More free bonuses for army player plays is what player wants as a rule.
obsidianaura wrote: As a pure Tyranid Hive Fleet Behemoth player (the prettiest hive fleet). I'm a bit sad. I hate spamming lists and struggle to compete with the newer/updated armies.
Then the Octarius Leviathan book comes out which I cant really use.
I have one unit of six hive guard. And now due to this new book its probably going mean they need rebalancing based on rules that I don't benefit from :(
That's the flipside of all these chapter/whatever bonuses you get for free.
This was easily predicted when they first started appearing and which is why I wasn't fan of them. But supposedly they are needed to have "fluffy" forces despite them being actually less than fluffy like white scars when they encouraged all bike armies when in reality it was tactical squads that were mainstay of white scar armies in fluff...
But players just want free buffs. Fluff or what's good for game can go to hell. More free bonuses for army player plays is what player wants as a rule.
And happy to pay $50 for 2 pages of them too....apparently