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Mistresspaige wrote: Hey guys I’m quite new to the whole 40k scene but after watching the hilarious Text to Speech show on YouTube last year I’ve been interested in trying out the game itself. However from a lot of groups I’ve met they’ve been maybe not hostile per day but a little gate keeping. How can I join in the fun on the hobby when I’m looked upon as not belonging? Is there anything I can do to make the community more welcoming to me?
Get Tabletop Simulator from Steam, join the TTS40k discord, learn how to play 40k, and play with the people YOU want to play with.
The same Discord where a weapons-grade MRA idiot posts a hell of a lot? That is not the safe space you think it is.
what? 0_0
To elaborate, the not-missed-around-here poster BaconCatBug posted there a lot. Turns out he’s a racist too and they binned him off TTS40K Discord by looks of things. Good.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Mistresspaige wrote: Hey guys I’m quite new to the whole 40k scene but after watching the hilarious Text to Speech show on YouTube last year I’ve been interested in trying out the game itself. However from a lot of groups I’ve met they’ve been maybe not hostile per day but a little gate keeping. How can I join in the fun on the hobby when I’m looked upon as not belonging? Is there anything I can do to make the community more welcoming to me?
Get Tabletop Simulator from Steam, join the TTS40k discord, learn how to play 40k, and play with the people YOU want to play with.
The same Discord where a weapons-grade MRA idiot posts a hell of a lot? That is not the safe space you think it is.
what? 0_0
To elaborate, the not-missed-around-here poster BaconCatBug posted there a lot. Turns out he’s a racist too and they binned him off TTS40K Discord by looks of things. Good.
TheBestBucketHead wrote: I have autism and depression, my friend has anxiety and ptsd. We are extremely socially awkward and can be anti social sometimes. Some people are just bad at socializing. I understand the notion to get rid of gatekeeping, and I agree that we shouldn't have social boundaries defined by immutable characteristics, but please do not act like everyone that is socially awkward or antisocial can just get better at being social easily.
Sadly posters in this thread seem to not be aware or not willing to accept how many problems that are attributed to sexism and/or gatekeeping stem from overrepresentation of people with ASD and other social disorders in this hobby.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: There is a difference, yes, but we should make it very clear that there isn't an excuse for being *anti-social* to someone on the basis of their gender or other such factor.
What if they're anti-social behaviour was due to some form of neurodivergence?
What kind of anti-social behaviour are we talking about here? Being blunt/stand-offish to everyone, or using sexist language, racial slurs, and transphobia? I can completely understand being antisocial, but I don't excuse bigotry, and my neurodivergent friends (I cannot speak for myself, as I am undiagnosed) would agree. There is no excuse for bigotry, not even neurodivergence.
Hecaton wrote:I suspect OP was a drive by posting of an alt account of someone who posts here regularly.
You suspect, but unless you have proof, all you're doing is further perpetuating the image that women don't "really" belong here.
I believe Hecaton was suggesting that the OP was the alt account of a female user. I doubt they're correct either way, though.
Oh, that's a very different impression to what I thought they were implying - I got the idea that they were implying that the whole account was made up by a non-woman user. Regardless, I also doubt that to be the case.
TheBestBucketHead wrote:I have autism and depression, my friend has anxiety and ptsd. We are extremely socially awkward and can be anti social sometimes. Some people are just bad at socializing. I understand the notion to get rid of gatekeeping, and I agree that we shouldn't have social boundaries defined by immutable characteristics, but please do not act like everyone that is socially awkward or antisocial can just get better at being social easily.
Again, socially awkward and anti-social =/= sexism. When I'm talking about sexist behaviour, I'm talking about sexist behaviour, not being socially awkward. I would class myself as socially awkward, but I wouldn't class myself as sexist.
This isn't a case of "get better socially", I'm talking about the very real genuine sexism and ideas that "this is not a space for women" - some of which have been espoused in this thread. If we can keep our eyes on that, instead of trying to conflate non-issues with that and thereby drown out those concerns, that would be good.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/14 17:12:00
Irkjoe wrote: No, Timmy would be a weirdo, he doesn't belong there and the wine mums don't want to hear his scene by scene analysis of how the movie is a subversive loser's fantasy. Everything isn't for everybody and the idea that you will be welcomed by people who want something different out of it is silly. Most men prioritize playing the game, the thing itself, not socializing and chit-chatting over the game.
Aww, Irky, your gender roles aren't under assault, you can believe in your natural place in the world all you want, it's not true, it's a construct you lie to yourself about to make you feel special, but you can wallow in your bs forever, nobody's stopping you. We've just all heard it before, know it's bs, and don't mind calling it out as such.
Irkjoe wrote: I'm going to echo my original point; you don't need a scientific explanation to prove men and women are different, it's completely self evident. Enter science; now, men and women are the same, interchangeable, or nonexistent. The science assumes that we haven't figured it out yet when the truth has been obvious from the beginning.
Correlation is the first step in determining causation, and the disregard of traditions that might have become traditions because they contain wisdom is a dangerous lesson the west is currently learning imo.
Strangely, you keep coming back to your (pseudo) science, yet, I haven't seen you cite a single source. Not one peer-reviewed article, is this the science of feelings you're using? I mean, the results of that methodology tend to be inconsistent, but much like your devotion to gender roles, it will help to make you feel special, which is clearly very important to you.
Also, don't care if I get banned, feel free.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I would class myself as socially awkward, but I wouldn't class myself as sexist.
Weren't you just saying that people can be discriminatory without knowing it? How do you know your social awkwardness isn't a result of sexism you don't know you have?
Sim-Life wrote: Weren't you just saying that people can be discriminatory without knowing it? How do you know your social awkwardness isn't a result of sexism you don't know you have?
Usually making an effort to use better words (assuming you have the vocabulary) leads to the identification and amelioration of such tendencies. Self-analysis of language use often leads to an analysis of mental structures, pathways, and methodologies which are all tightly intertwined with worldview.
It's a process with many different approaches, but language is generally a good place to start, which is part of the reason it has been a point of emphasis over the past several years for many marginalized groups.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
JNAProductions wrote:If Timmy wanted to drink with the wine moms and watch American Beauty, that'd be absolutely fine. A hobby or activity being stereotypically masculine or feminine doesn't mean jack if it's something you enjoy.
Again, there is (or was, in all probability) an actual woman here saying she enjoys the hobby, and you're dismissing that. You're saying "She doesn't really enjoy the hobby the same way other people do."
You are, in effect, calling her a liar. For what reason? Why?
No, Timmy would be a weirdo, he doesn't belong there and the wine mums don't want to hear his scene by scene analysis of how the movie is a subversive loser's fantasy. Everything isn't for everybody and the idea that you will be welcomed by people who want something different out of it is silly. Most men prioritize playing the game, the thing itself, not socializing and chit-chatting over the game.
Correlation is the first step in determining causation, and the disregard of traditions that might have become traditions because they contain wisdom is a dangerous lesson the west is currently learning imo.
Lol. What a nice attitude straight from stone age.
Yeah, I like the GAME the least out of the different aspects of 40k.
The social interplay between warlords and the spectacle of what's happening before/during/after on the table.
If I was privy to this misogyny and outright jerkness at our FLGS I would confront the detestable behaviour. I wish more people would stand up to the bully/ass-hat crowd.
The more people collecting/building/painting/playing 40k the better.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Usually making an effort to use better words (assuming you have the vocabulary) leads to the identification and amelioration of such tendencies.
So you're saying that the use of certain shibboleths and incantations frees one from the sin of sexism and other forms of bigotry?
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Usually making an effort to use better words (assuming you have the vocabulary) leads to the identification and amelioration of such tendencies.
So you're saying that the use of certain shibboleths and incantations frees one from the sin of sexism and other forms of bigotry?
I mean it definitely explains the word salad I see people use to describe themselves on internet profiles nowadays.
Hecaton wrote: So you're saying that the use of certain shibboleths and incantations frees one from the sin of sexism and other forms of bigotry?
Assuming thought is involved in the process of forming words for you, yes. But we all do things differently, and despite your comment, nothing and nobody can provide absolution, so freedom from sin is simply another illusion in your collection, indeed acceptance of sin is only further illusion. You can think and speak, you can think about how you think and make it more accurate, less emotional, less judgemental, but ultimately, all this up to you, just stop whining when people call you out for being too lazy to make an effort at self-improvement.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Hecaton wrote: So you're saying that the use of certain shibboleths and incantations frees one from the sin of sexism and other forms of bigotry?
Assuming thought is involved in the process of forming words for you, yes. But we all do things differently, and despite your comment, nothing and nobody can provide absolution, so freedom from sin is simply another illusion in your collection, indeed acceptance of sin is only further illusion. You can think and speak, you can think about how you think and make it more accurate, less emotional, less judgemental, but ultimately, all this up to you, just stop whining when people call you out for being too lazy to make an effort at self-improvement.
Hey, we weren't talking about me, buddy.
My implied point was that if you act gakky but use the right words, you're still acting gakky (racist, sexist, whatever). So I don't see much point in the right words; rather, the words you describe seem more about signaling that one is part of a certain culture, what would be the college-educated class in the West.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/14 18:28:55
Hecaton wrote: My implied point was that if you act gakky but use the right words, you're still acting gakky (racist, sexist, whatever). So I don't see much point in the right words; rather, the words you describe seem more about signaling that one is part of a certain culture, what would be the college-educated class in the West.
The point is not to pantomime the right words that you think people want to hear, which is yes, useless, pointless, and disingenuous.
The point is to think about how you speak and improve it, because yes, the words you use don't necessarily reflect your beliefs, but they portray an image to the people you speak to, which leads them to their beliefs about you. You can be lazy, not think about how words reflect thought, portray meaning, but you will run into people who will call you out on it. Language, thought, and belief are all tied together very intimately, changing or improving one, will often lead to change or improvement in the others.
For me, it was the realization that I used words like 'ret4rd3d' (language filters) a lot. One of my old friends had a child who could arguably be said to fall into that category, I would never want that child to hear me use that word and even accidentally think that it applied to them. This led me to think about a lot of the words I use without thinking, which is where my opinions on this subject stem from, as a result the clarity of my speech has generally improved among other things.
I'm still an donkey-cave, but at least I communicate it clearly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/14 18:45:01
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Hecaton wrote: My implied point was that if you act gakky but use the right words, you're still acting gakky (racist, sexist, whatever). So I don't see much point in the right words; rather, the words you describe seem more about signaling that one is part of a certain culture, what would be the college-educated class in the West.
The point is not to pantomime the right words that you think people want to hear, which is yes, useless, pointless, and disingenuous.
The point is to think about how you speak and improve it, because yes, the words you use don't necessarily reflect your beliefs, but they portray an image to the people you speak to, which leads them to their beliefs about you. You can be lazy, not think about how words reflect thought, portray meaning, but you will run into people who will call you out on it. Language, thought, and belief are all tied together very intimately, changing or improving one, will often lead to change or improvement in the others.
For me, it was the realization that I used words like 'ret4rd3d' (language filters) a lot. One of my old friends had a child who could arguably be said to fall into that category, I would never want that child to hear me use that word and even accidentally think that it applied to them. This led me to think about a lot of the words I use without thinking, which is where my opinions on this subject stem from, as a result the clarity of my speech has generally improved among other things.
I'm still an donkey-cave, but at least I communicate it clearly.
But we're not talking about a woman going into a store and a guy launching into an incel-y rant about women invading his space and how they belong in a kitchen. Its about how a woman went to a FLGS and encountered people trying to accomadate a new player, a bad loser and someone looking at her funny. Only one of these thing are probably a gender thing (the last one, if that wasn't clear) and even then we only have OPs perception to go on and women aren't known to be infallible. My wife accuses me of giving her funny looks all the time and usually I'm just emoting at something I'm thinking about like trying to do math in my head or trying to get the most out of my gaming budget.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/14 18:55:15
TwinPoleTheory wrote: For me, it was the realization that I used words like 'ret4rd3d' (language filters) a lot. One of my old friends had a child who could arguably be said to fall into that category, I would never want that child to hear me use that word and even accidentally think that it applied to them. This led me to think about a lot of the words I use without thinking, which is where my opinions on this subject stem from, as a result the clarity of my speech has generally improved among other things.
Oh yeah, I think I was misunderstanding you. I thought you were talking about using academic language as a near-requirement for being not bigoted. I work in academia, and there are an unfortunate number of people who think that the use of "proper language" absolves them from their sexism, racism, etc in that sphere. (My personal favorite was a male sociology professor who told a female physics professor who was a friend of mine that science was a "male way of knowing.")
I heavily agree on avoiding using slurs or derogatory language in the way you describe.
JNAProductions wrote:If Timmy wanted to drink with the wine moms and watch American Beauty, that'd be absolutely fine. A hobby or activity being stereotypically masculine or feminine doesn't mean jack if it's something you enjoy.
Again, there is (or was, in all probability) an actual woman here saying she enjoys the hobby, and you're dismissing that. You're saying "She doesn't really enjoy the hobby the same way other people do."
You are, in effect, calling her a liar. For what reason? Why?
No, Timmy would be a weirdo, he doesn't belong there and the wine mums don't want to hear his scene by scene analysis of how the movie is a subversive loser's fantasy. Everything isn't for everybody and the idea that you will be welcomed by people who want something different out of it is silly. Most men prioritize playing the game, the thing itself, not socializing and chit-chatting over the game.
Correlation is the first step in determining causation, and the disregard of traditions that might have become traditions because they contain wisdom is a dangerous lesson the west is currently learning imo.
Lol. What a nice attitude straight from stone age.
Yeah, I like the GAME the least out of the different aspects of 40k.
The social interplay between warlords and the spectacle of what's happening before/during/after on the table.
If I was privy to this misogyny and outright jerkness at our FLGS I would confront the detestable behaviour. I wish more people would stand up to the bully/ass-hat crowd.
The more people collecting/building/painting/playing 40k the better.
You’ve got excellent attitudes to have, and it is probable that you are aware of this rant. It is worth remembering that because men are not typically the subject of misogyny or sexist rhetoric, we are not going to notice it because we would have to be around the woman it happens to at the time it happens and we would likely have to be paying attention as a lot of these things are micro aggressions, and as we’ve noticed people can respond with a lot of hostility to the idea that they might have a point of view that was shaped by our culture to have biases against people based on various schema. Or even that somebody may not like a particular behavior they are barely aware they are doing, in other words. That is quite a bit that has to align before we will notice it, which is why to us it is under-represented and generally less noticeable. One of the reasons my wife loves me is the fact that I treat her exactly like I would a man; I don’t dramatically swoop in if she has the slightest fall asking her if she is alright, for example. I know that if she wasn’t she would let me know.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
Blackie wrote:
Those you described are what I call TFG or WAAC dudes. I avoid them like plague.
Galas wrote:
I have to greately disagree with that. Yeah we have the couple tryhards but most people here go to tournaments for the social aspect of all of it. The game is mediocre at is best and just an excuse to hang out, move our painted toys and roll dice.
But maybe thats a cultural difference. I have always heard that american culture is much more cuttroath competitive.
But the reason you are gathered is to engage in the hobby, not engaging in the hobby just to hang out. Most men prioritize the "thing". I don't mean literally the rules of the game and a bunch of waac players. Women are more concerned with the social interaction while the men are going to care less and be more forgiving of the awkward.
And the details of analogy don't matter, it could be knitting or makeup or whatever.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'm curious, what about enby folks? What are they more concerned with, seeing as you want to be all gender-reductive here.
I don't even know what that means but they're men and women so all the same rules apply.
Grimskul wrote: Is it old for me to see NB as shortform for Nota Bene? Something my math teacher used consistently and I've never seen NB as anything else but that.
Well congratulations, you learned something today!
This thread... I do not even know where to begin. As a reminder for everyone, this forum has rules and they are really easy to follow. Number 1 is be polite. It is really easy to do but remarkably some people seem to struggle, if you want to be rude to other people please type out your rant then hit the big red x at the top right of your browser window. If you post rude, bigoted crap here you will be banned, if you post to just stir the pot or spam you will be banned.
Hecaton wrote: My implied point was that if you act gakky but use the right words, you're still acting gakky (racist, sexist, whatever). So I don't see much point in the right words; rather, the words you describe seem more about signaling that one is part of a certain culture, what would be the college-educated class in the West.
The point is not to pantomime the right words that you think people want to hear, which is yes, useless, pointless, and disingenuous.
The point is to think about how you speak and improve it, because yes, the words you use don't necessarily reflect your beliefs, but they portray an image to the people you speak to, which leads them to their beliefs about you. You can be lazy, not think about how words reflect thought, portray meaning, but you will run into people who will call you out on it. Language, thought, and belief are all tied together very intimately, changing or improving one, will often lead to change or improvement in the others.
For me, it was the realization that I used words like 'ret4rd3d' (language filters) a lot. One of my old friends had a child who could arguably be said to fall into that category, I would never want that child to hear me use that word and even accidentally think that it applied to them. This led me to think about a lot of the words I use without thinking, which is where my opinions on this subject stem from, as a result the clarity of my speech has generally improved among other things.
I'm still an donkey-cave, but at least I communicate it clearly.
But we're not talking about a woman going into a store and a guy launching into an incel-y rant about women invading his space and how they belong in a kitchen. Its about how a woman went to a FLGS and encountered people trying to accomadate a new player, a bad loser and someone looking at her funny. Only one of these thing are probably a gender thing (the last one, if that wasn't clear) and even then we only have OPs perception to go on and women aren't known to be infallible. My wife accuses me of giving her funny looks all the time and usually I'm just emoting at something I'm thinking about like trying to do math in my head or trying to get the most out of my gaming budget.
A person doesn’t have to be openly abused to feel excluded and unwelcome. The very fact the OP has had the experienced she has and they have made her feel so unwelcome that she had to come here and post this is a sign that she had a negative experience. The peoples intent is irrelevant really. It’s her experience that matters. What can the community do to make women feel more welcome? In this persons experience it wasn’t welcoming. I am not arguing that the victim should never be doubted, but here we are talking about her lived experience, how a situation made her feel, that’s all we need to know.
Making someone, anyone, feel welcome is a skill and it takes effort. We have all experienced good welcoming experiences in shows, pubs, restaurants etc and all had bad experiences. The key is, one person making that effort and knowing how to do it can all the difference. So the next time anyone new comes into your space, be the person who makes the effort.
Questioning the OPs experience and saying “but did they really do or that or is it up just in your imagination?” Or saying “that doesn’t happen round here” makes you part of the problem. That isn’t welcoming, it’s the opposite.
Feeling a certain way doesn't automatically make it reasonable or justified though. Whether it is needs to be examined in order to make the right call.
Hecaton wrote: My implied point was that if you act gakky but use the right words, you're still acting gakky (racist, sexist, whatever). So I don't see much point in the right words; rather, the words you describe seem more about signaling that one is part of a certain culture, what would be the college-educated class in the West.
The point is not to pantomime the right words that you think people want to hear, which is yes, useless, pointless, and disingenuous.
The point is to think about how you speak and improve it, because yes, the words you use don't necessarily reflect your beliefs, but they portray an image to the people you speak to, which leads them to their beliefs about you. You can be lazy, not think about how words reflect thought, portray meaning, but you will run into people who will call you out on it. Language, thought, and belief are all tied together very intimately, changing or improving one, will often lead to change or improvement in the others.
For me, it was the realization that I used words like 'ret4rd3d' (language filters) a lot. One of my old friends had a child who could arguably be said to fall into that category, I would never want that child to hear me use that word and even accidentally think that it applied to them. This led me to think about a lot of the words I use without thinking, which is where my opinions on this subject stem from, as a result the clarity of my speech has generally improved among other things.
I'm still an donkey-cave, but at least I communicate it clearly.
But we're not talking about a woman going into a store and a guy launching into an incel-y rant about women invading his space and how they belong in a kitchen. Its about how a woman went to a FLGS and encountered people trying to accomadate a new player, a bad loser and someone looking at her funny. Only one of these thing are probably a gender thing (the last one, if that wasn't clear) and even then we only have OPs perception to go on and women aren't known to be infallible. My wife accuses me of giving her funny looks all the time and usually I'm just emoting at something I'm thinking about like trying to do math in my head or trying to get the most out of my gaming budget.
A person doesn’t have to be openly abused to feel excluded and unwelcome. The very fact the OP has had the experienced she has and they have made her feel so unwelcome that she had to come here and post this is a sign that she had a negative experience. The peoples intent is irrelevant really. It’s her experience that matters. What can the community do to make women feel more welcome? In this persons experience it wasn’t welcoming. I am not arguing that the victim should never be doubted, but here we are talking about her lived experience, how a situation made her feel, that’s all we need to know.
Making someone, anyone, feel welcome is a skill and it takes effort. We have all experienced good welcoming experiences in shows, pubs, restaurants etc and all had bad experiences. The key is, one person making that effort and knowing how to do it can all the difference. So the next time anyone new comes into your space, be the person who makes the effort.
Questioning the OPs experience and saying “but did they really do or that or is it up just in your imagination?” Or saying “that doesn’t happen round here” makes you part of the problem. That isn’t welcoming, it’s the opposite.
Have an exalt for having a better point of view than me and wording it better than I can. It should be telling that every time we have a discussion that involves the inclusion of women (and just as importantly, but even more under the radar, non-binary and transgender people) some of dakka’s regulars get so uncomfortable that they need to start looking for every argument they can to justify the opposing side of the conversation. These are perspectives we rarely get and whenever we do get them we immediately get defensive. The sort of stuff that flies out so casually on these threads should prompt everyone on dakka to challenge themselves. I just learned from Sgt. smudge that holy cow, non-binary people are heavily discriminated here and in the hobby as well! I never thought to look at that until some of the rude responses they got. And I realized all the times I didn’t notice that people refused to in other threads to use their preferred pronouns just to spite them.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
Hecaton wrote: My implied point was that if you act gakky but use the right words, you're still acting gakky (racist, sexist, whatever). So I don't see much point in the right words; rather, the words you describe seem more about signaling that one is part of a certain culture, what would be the college-educated class in the West.
The point is not to pantomime the right words that you think people want to hear, which is yes, useless, pointless, and disingenuous.
The point is to think about how you speak and improve it, because yes, the words you use don't necessarily reflect your beliefs, but they portray an image to the people you speak to, which leads them to their beliefs about you. You can be lazy, not think about how words reflect thought, portray meaning, but you will run into people who will call you out on it. Language, thought, and belief are all tied together very intimately, changing or improving one, will often lead to change or improvement in the others.
For me, it was the realization that I used words like 'ret4rd3d' (language filters) a lot. One of my old friends had a child who could arguably be said to fall into that category, I would never want that child to hear me use that word and even accidentally think that it applied to them. This led me to think about a lot of the words I use without thinking, which is where my opinions on this subject stem from, as a result the clarity of my speech has generally improved among other things.
I'm still an donkey-cave, but at least I communicate it clearly.
But we're not talking about a woman going into a store and a guy launching into an incel-y rant about women invading his space and how they belong in a kitchen. Its about how a woman went to a FLGS and encountered people trying to accomadate a new player, a bad loser and someone looking at her funny. Only one of these thing are probably a gender thing (the last one, if that wasn't clear) and even then we only have OPs perception to go on and women aren't known to be infallible. My wife accuses me of giving her funny looks all the time and usually I'm just emoting at something I'm thinking about like trying to do math in my head or trying to get the most out of my gaming budget.
A person doesn’t have to be openly abused to feel excluded and unwelcome. The very fact the OP has had the experienced she has and they have made her feel so unwelcome that she had to come here and post this is a sign that she had a negative experience. The peoples intent is irrelevant really. It’s her experience that matters. What can the community do to make women feel more welcome? In this persons experience it wasn’t welcoming. I am not arguing that the victim should never be doubted, but here we are talking about her lived experience, how a situation made her feel, that’s all we need to know.
Making someone, anyone, feel welcome is a skill and it takes effort. We have all experienced good welcoming experiences in shows, pubs, restaurants etc and all had bad experiences. The key is, one person making that effort and knowing how to do it can all the difference. So the next time anyone new comes into your space, be the person who makes the effort.
Questioning the OPs experience and saying “but did they really do or that or is it up just in your imagination?” Or saying “that doesn’t happen round here” makes you part of the problem. That isn’t welcoming, it’s the opposite.
Have an exalt for having a better point of view than me and wording it better than I can. It should be telling that every time we have a discussion that involves the inclusion of women (and just as importantly, but even more under the radar, non-binary and transgender people) some of dakka’s regulars get so uncomfortable that they need to start looking for every argument they can to justify the opposing side of the conversation. These are perspectives we rarely get and whenever we do get them we immediately get defensive. The sort of stuff that flies out so casually on these threads should prompt everyone on dakka to challenge themselves. I just learned from Sgt. smudge that holy cow, non-binary people are heavily discriminated here and in the hobby as well! I never thought to look at that until some of the rude responses they got. And I realized all the times I didn’t notice that people refused to in other threads to use their preferred pronouns just to spite them.
This place is cesspit in many ways but is getting better, because some people make the effort. The fact that those with a negative point of view or bigoted views are starting feel uncomfortable here down to the fact that some will stand up and call out that behaviour for what it is, but importantly fo it well and eloquently. I have learnt a lot this last year on here.
