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The OP chose the title because as a woman she felt uncomfortable in the company of her local hobby community. You can believe whatever you want is not sexist but the truth is, sexism has been a core part of our culture up until very recently. Even then, it is important to realize that the sexism (and racism and any other -ism you’d like to pursue) was not due to people being inherently evil, but because people believed that
a) the discrimination inherent in their society had some basis in biology
b) that their beliefs of women belonging in submissive roles was right, and by the cultural values of the time they were.
c) refuted and marginalized the women’s input with inputs from people like Sigmeund Froyd, the father of modern psychology but whose earlier research was heavily influenced by the cultural values that included things like beating your wife being normal.
d) dismissed women’s claims of being uncomfortable; it was normal for sexual assault allegations to be determined culturally and in court rooms as “she was asking for it” and “look at what she was wearing,” etc. it all was designed to take their voice away and it discouraged any sort of self advocacy. Sexual assault, rape and harassment were culturally enabled because of these issues.
I’m not saying you are a sexist. I’m saying that you should try to remove sex based biases from your decision making processes. Think carefully about the words you want to say next and the potential consequences. Hell, try to think of it from the perspective of a woman. Do your words and ideas sound like they may disempower women, by trying to negate or reframe the OP’s perspective to fit your masculine perspective? People don’t want guilt they want change. They don’t want others to feel attacked, they want to stop others from being so. Feeling defensive or feeling attacked
Is normal, but change is not a comfortable process. Maybe try an implicit bias screening to see how much you may be implicily biased against women or possibly any other minority group if you feel really brave. Maybe take a minute to seriously consider what you have to lose by even acting like this woman knows what she is talking about and experiencing, and why she chose the title for this thread. What do you have to lose from listening to other women? Is there some sort of ulterior motive to steal the hobby from men? What would anyone gain from that when there are plenty of other hobbies women feel comfortable in, especially if they are supposed to be biologically predisposed to not integrating into this hobby for whatever reason?

Sorry if I'm just adding gas to the fire but I find a lot of humor in this thread. Every once in a while when I go to the game store with my wife, this exact thread happens in real life. 2-4 people start arguing about why/how women experience the gaming culture and continue the conversation long after we walk away. Not that walking away mattered, no one bothered to hear anything my wife said after the initial spark that stated to convo.

Your enjoyment of 40k will be hugely dependent on the gaming group you are part of.

There are a lot of... we'll say people that do not provide for a positive experience that you will want to avoid.

But that is true of a lot of hobbies.

So when it comes to gate keeping, if you find people trying to gatekeep you out because you are a woman - do not be a part of that group or avoid those particular people.

The rest falls into place pretty handily.

Racerguy180 wrote:

If I was privy to this misogyny and outright jerkness at our FLGS I would confront the detestable behaviour. I wish more people would stand up to the bully/ass-hat crowd.

Very much this. The only way anything changes is if we take a stand when we see it. ( And raise our kids to be better )

Keramory wrote:
Sorry if I'm just adding gas to the fire but I find a lot of humor in this thread. Every once in a while when I go to the game store with my wife, this exact thread happens in real life. 2-4 people start arguing about why/how women experience the gaming culture and continue the conversation long after we walk away. Not that walking away mattered, no one bothered to hear anything my wife said after the initial spark that stated to convo.

That was exactly what one of the women on this forum I was friendly with said her experience consistently was here, and why she stopped posting here. That was about 5 years ago but nothing has really changed.

The issue is that we usually won’t see it because it mostly happens to women who are rare in the hobby, so the odds of you being around a woman in the hobby are low enough as it is, then you have to actually be there when it happens, and most of it is small things with innocent intentions that can be difficult to even notice.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Feelings not being in tune with reality, sure. I'll grant you that.

If I greet my friend with a text that's seemingly insulting, like a "What up, *****?" and they get their feelings hurt, then that's not in tune with the reality of what I meant to say.

That doesn't make their feelings invalid-I should still apologize if they let me know that that hurt them, and strive to do better in the future.

Ok, but that's not really relevant to the discussion at hand. Some people can have their feelings hurt by unreasonable things - like this last weekend, I was at a tournament, and one of the players was unsportsmanlike, insisting that everyone else give them the ability to take things back and they took an insane amount of time for deployment, but refused to take the time to explain his own models' special rules to his opponents, who were relatively new. The TO ejected him after he got heated with the TO, and everyone there understands that the dude was way out of line, but to hear him tell it on social media he's a victim and the TO conspired to stop him from winning a small tournament. His feelings are hurt. His feelings aren't valid.

And yet, somehow, others are.

macluvin wrote:
I’m saying that you should try to remove sex based biases from your decision making processes.

In general I see this on the supposedly pro-woman side quite often; in the talks about female space marines, there seems to be a lot of people who think that the Imperium automatically becomes more moral if it's woman doing the baby-killing, genocide, and brutal oppression, since women have some sort of special moral license that men do not. And in the real world, oftentimes there's an idea that women need special accommodations in the hobby as opposed to being treated like equal members of it.

Hecaton wrote:

macluvin wrote:
I’m saying that you should try to remove sex based biases from your decision making processes.

In general I see this on the supposedly pro-woman side quite often; in the talks about female space marines, there seems to be a lot of people who think that the Imperium automatically becomes more moral if it's woman doing the baby-killing, genocide, and brutal oppression, since women have some sort of special moral license that men do not. And in the real world, oftentimes there's an idea that women need special accommodations in the hobby as opposed to being treated like equal members of it.

I have literally never seen this take in my life and I have seen a huge number of female space marine debates.

Keramory wrote:
Sorry if I'm just adding gas to the fire but I find a lot of humor in this thread. Every once in a while when I go to the game store with my wife, this exact thread happens in real life. 2-4 people start arguing about why/how women experience the gaming culture and continue the conversation long after we walk away. Not that walking away mattered, no one bothered to hear anything my wife said after the initial spark that stated to convo.

How often was that discussion started by a woman? I should like to see their input more often otherwise it’s just a bunch of men arguing about it to the best of our abilities.

It's entirely possible that Hecaton's lying here to prolong some kind of drama. After all, people aren't truthful the whole time. :rolleyes:

Rihgu wrote:
I have literally never seen this take in my life and I have seen a huge number of female space marine debates.

It was all over a thread here about female space marines. Generally the people who wanted to see female space marines saw the Imperium as unironically heroic, and thought that it was a flaw in the Imperium that it wasn't gender-equal among Astartes. I perceive this as a result of GW's modern "the space marines are heroic and laudable" advertising push.


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Catulle wrote:
It's entirely possible that Hecaton's lying here to prolong some kind of drama. After all, people aren't truthful the whole time. :rolleyes:

I mean there's a chance, but given that the situation I described is *possible*, you'd have to agree with my point that people's feelings aren't always valid.

Rihgu wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

macluvin wrote:
I’m saying that you should try to remove sex based biases from your decision making processes.

In general I see this on the supposedly pro-woman side quite often; in the talks about female space marines, there seems to be a lot of people who think that the Imperium automatically becomes more moral if it's woman doing the baby-killing, genocide, and brutal oppression, since women have some sort of special moral license that men do not. And in the real world, oftentimes there's an idea that women need special accommodations in the hobby as opposed to being treated like equal members of it.

I have literally never seen this take in my life and I have seen a huge number of female space marine debates.

Yeah... in my experience (which included being the creator of the last female space marine thread and having followed it intimately to the end) the female space marine argument from the pro-female space marine side was focused on giving women representation in the most iconic warhammer 40k faction there is to make the hobby more inclusive. I’ve never seen the argument that atrocities are more justified if they are committed by women... or any sort of implication of such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: on this forum. I don’t follow other forums.

Hecaton wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
I have literally never seen this take in my life and I have seen a huge number of female space marine debates.

It was all over a thread here about female space marines. Generally the people who wanted to see female space marines saw the Imperium as unironically heroic, and thought that it was a flaw in the Imperium that it wasn't gender-equal among Astartes. I perceive this as a result of GW's modern "the space marines are heroic and laudable" advertising push.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Catulle wrote:
It's entirely possible that Hecaton's lying here to prolong some kind of drama. After all, people aren't truthful the whole time. :rolleyes:

I mean there's a chance, but given that the situation I described is *possible*, you'd have to agree with my point that people's feelings aren't always valid.

I was in that same thread, and by my memory you're fabricating that particular stance. I do recall people thinking it strange that among all the spiraling branches of the Imperial beauracracy that it would be odd for them to say "no, we don't want to use 50% of our potential recruiting pool for space marine bodies - women are icky" when they don't show any preference for sex in any other department (except Custodes, Sisters of Silence, and Sisters of Battle). There are women Imperial Guard, after all. If the Imperium saw them as inferior stock for battle that wouldn't be true.
And it doesn't mean the Imperium is "woke" or "heroic" or "laudable". It means that human life is worthless to them, and women are as equally worthless as men.

macluvin wrote:


How often was that discussion started by a woman? I should like to see their input more often otherwise it’s just a bunch of men arguing about it to the best of our abilities.

Started by her? Never that I've seen. No girl i know walks into a room and goes, "yo so let me tell you why this hobby sucks for me".

Usually it starts by someone commenting they never played with or seen a chick play 40k before and then it goes into some scientific debate with some other dudes. I've been guilty of chiming into it like I'm doing now.

Keramory wrote:

macluvin wrote:


How often was that discussion started by a woman? I should like to see their input more often otherwise it’s just a bunch of men arguing about it to the best of our abilities.

Started by her? Never that I've seen. No girl i know walks into a room and goes, "yo so let me tell you why this hobby sucks for me".

Usually it starts by someone commenting they never played with or seen a chick play 40k before and then it goes into some scientific debate with some other dudes. I've been guilty of chiming into it like I'm doing now.

You’re literally in a thread that started like that.

Hecaton wrote:
Some people can have their feelings hurt by unreasonable things - like this last weekend, I was at a tournament, and one of the players was unsportsmanlike, insisting that everyone else give them the ability to take things back and they took an insane amount of time for deployment, but refused to take the time to explain his own models' special rules to his opponents, who were relatively new. The TO ejected him after he got heated with the TO, and everyone there understands that the dude was way out of line, but to hear him tell it on social media he's a victim and the TO conspired to stop him from winning a small tournament. His feelings are hurt. His feelings aren't valid.

This happens a lot, to everyone, we all have our own biases and perceptions based on our interpretations of events. (One of my favorite quotes is "There are three sides to every story, your side, their side, and the truth.") However, by the logic your using, what's the point in trusting anyone's personal account of any given situation, they are all effected by personal bias.

She came to us in good faith asking for some advise on inclusion, why is the default response to doubt instead of to trust?

Should people have jumped on those suggesting that it was POSSIBLE it could be a misunderstanding, no, because it is possible, and that I could be misinterpreting an event or action is something that I personally need to be reminded of from time to time as well in my own personal life. That is a useful perspective to have. HOWEVER, there are plenty who just dismissed things outright because they are either (willfully or not) ignorant of the issues women do face when trying to take part in a traditionally male dominated activity. Many of these true claims do get dismissed out of hand incorrectly as a biased perception of events or a variety of other excuses when they were real issues; so it's a really touchy subject for a lot of people.

At the end of the day, no one here can know exactly what happened and why it happened. All we have is a newer member of the community who was looking for advise, and boy did we gak the bed in trying to be the welcoming and inclusive community that almost everyone seems to claim to either be or at least want to be.

Rihgu wrote:
I was in that same thread, and by my memory you're fabricating that particular stance. I do recall people thinking it strange that among all the spiraling branches of the Imperial beauracracy that it would be odd for them to say "no, we don't want to use 50% of our potential recruiting pool for space marine bodies - women are icky" when they don't show any preference for sex in any other department (except Custodes, Sisters of Silence, and Sisters of Battle). There are women Imperial Guard, after all. If the Imperium saw them as inferior stock for battle that wouldn't be true.
And it doesn't mean the Imperium is "woke" or "heroic" or "laudable". It means that human life is worthless to them, and women are as equally worthless as men.

Except everyone in that thread was talking about how empowering it would be for there to be female Astartes. This goes against your "equally worthless" idea pretty strongly.

Sure, there's been some cringe in this thread; there have also been some really positive and articulate posts. I've been reading a lot, but trying to wade in rarely, and for the most part, people are replying when I otherwise would and often in a more articulate way. I did just want to address a few posts, hopefully in a non-confrontational way, and hopefully, no one feels attacked by what I have to say.

Before I get going, I'd also like to acknowledge the Mods and they work they do- thanks for keeping it open, because I do feel there is value in these discussions, but thanks also for keeping your eyes open and letting us know you're there.

Okay- so earlier, A. T. pointed out a couple of Smudge's posts as "possibly" containing "unconscious" sexism. Kudos to A.T. for being clear on that, and for reclarifying afterwards- I didn't perceive those quotes as an attack, and I don't think Smudge did either. They responded, and I don't think their response indicated feeling of an attack. For my part, I agree that Smudge's posts that were quoted weren't expressions of unconscious sexism, and just wanted to offer a detached observers perspective on why. For reference, here are the quotes:

A.T. wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So where's the flood of men complaining about their hobby experiences feeling excluded? In terms of complaints about feeling excluded, those comments disproportionately come from women. If, as you say, people would be more vocal about negative experiences, where are those same complaints from everyone else?

To this a few posts earlier, blowing a guy off for talking about their autism and depression:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm talking about the very real genuine sexism and ideas that "this is not a space for women" - some of which have been espoused in this thread. If we can keep our eyes on that, instead of trying to conflate non-issues with that and thereby drown out those concerns, that would be good.

In the first quote, I think that the points being made, though related to gender, are observable:

1) I don't think there are a lot of posts by men who say they feel excluded from the hobby.
2) This is not the first time I've seen a woman post about feeling excluded, and I also believe it's not the only woman IN THIS THREAD who has reported feeling that way. (Pretty sure there was another, but didn't have the time to go back through nine pages to confirm- sorry if I'm incorrect).
3) Given the meaning of the term "disproportionately" I do think Smudge's conclusion is also reasonable: given that a) I see few (if any) posts from men who say they feel excluded and b) the sample size of men on Dakka is large vs. c) I do see posts from women who feel this way and d) the sample size of women on Dakka is smaller, it is a reasonable hypothesis that a disproportionate number of women feel excluded.

I concede it can't be absolutely proven- I just agree with Smudge that it's a reasonable hypothesis.
I further will say that it's possible to debate issues around "feeling excluded" and what exactly that means, but I don't think that's relevant in the context of what Smudge was saying; I also think it's the hardest part of this thread to talk about and leads to greater instances of cringe than any other element of the discussion.

As for the second quote, I don't think Smudge was dismissing the post of a person living with autism and depression; on the contrary, I think Smudge was clarifying the difference between socially awkward and sexist behaviours- there is certainly a difference, and it is one that some people on the spectrum might need a bit of help to see. The piece of conversation between Smudge and this person that you quoted doesn't convey this as well as the whole conversation, but I believe the kernel is there. Smudge does certainly present as someone with an awareness if issues surrounding ASD. The conversation between the two posters, if I recall correctly, actually ends with Smudge clarifying this, and then doing the thing another poster suggested- apologizing anyway, to indicate that one does care about the feelings of the other, and is aware of the possible impact of one's words.

Having said all that A.T. , I again want to reiterate that I'm not "calling you out" because I don't think your post was a malicious attack, but merely an intellectual response to a request that Smudge made. I just want you to know that I personally don't see evidence of "unconscious sexism" in the quotes you selected.

Before I respond to the second post, I should preface a bit: I fully acknowledge that I have a history of disagreeing with the person I'm about to quote- usually about rules and game related stuff, and not this type of thing. I don't think I've every attacked or insulted this person before, though I concede I may have crossed a line once or twice, and perhaps I just don't remember. I do remember multiple occasions when I felt this person was attacking me, though I try hard to avoid responding in kind when offended.

I will also point out that this person has already said they are about to walk away from the conversation, and would probably be better to just let them do that. Maybe I'm a bad person for not letting it go, but I have to point this out.

In an earlier post, Sim made this request of Smudge:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Don't put words in my mouth to portray me as sexist in order to strengthen your argument.

This is a 100% reasonable request. And I'd actually be all in on this, except that Sim made this request IMMEDIATELY after saying this:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Its pretty clear that you seem to think OPs experience was with some kind of formless misoginistic blob rather than actual humans with thoughts and perspectives of their own and that the OP is a perfect creature, incapable of misunderstandings but fully capable of discerning peoples motives and opinions instantly from a few hours of interactions (presumably because she's a woman and therefore correct in all things). It's also clear that you play in some kind of echo chamber where everyone must conform to the agreed upon standards lest they be exiled. If you kick everyone that disagrees with you out of your group you're going to eventually find yourself alone.

If Smudge put words in your mouth at all Sim- and I'm not even 100% sure they did- it certainly isn't as many as you're putting in theirs.

I'm not sure you were even aware of it, which is the reason I post this. I mean, it's possible you'll come back with:

"Yeah, I was aware I was doing the exact same thing I asked someone not to do to me: I did it to illustrate the point."

I might even be talked into believing it.

Please notice that I'm not even engaging you on your take in the debate about sexism and feelings- I don't want to go down that rabbit hole with you- I've seen how tense conversations between us get when we debate rules in a game. Like I said, I'm just not even sure you're aware of it.

Hecaton wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
I was in that same thread, and by my memory you're fabricating that particular stance. I do recall people thinking it strange that among all the spiraling branches of the Imperial beauracracy that it would be odd for them to say "no, we don't want to use 50% of our potential recruiting pool for space marine bodies - women are icky" when they don't show any preference for sex in any other department (except Custodes, Sisters of Silence, and Sisters of Battle). There are women Imperial Guard, after all. If the Imperium saw them as inferior stock for battle that wouldn't be true.
And it doesn't mean the Imperium is "woke" or "heroic" or "laudable". It means that human life is worthless to them, and women are as equally worthless as men.

Except everyone in that thread was talking about how empowering it would be for there to be female Astartes. This goes against your "equally worthless" idea pretty strongly.

Empowering to the PLAYER, not the ASTARTES.

macluvin wrote:

Keramory wrote:

macluvin wrote:


How often was that discussion started by a woman? I should like to see their input more often otherwise it’s just a bunch of men arguing about it to the best of our abilities.

Started by her? Never that I've seen. No girl i know walks into a room and goes, "yo so let me tell you why this hobby sucks for me".

Usually it starts by someone commenting they never played with or seen a chick play 40k before and then it goes into some scientific debate with some other dudes. I've been guilty of chiming into it like I'm doing now.

You’re literally in a thread that started like that.

Maybe I misunderstood the question. I was referring to real life. I've never seen my wife or any girl approach someone in real life and start a debate on why chicks don't approach the hobby. And in case I'm misunderstood I'm not saying the Op is fake or anything. She's asking an online form about how to make friends in a store. I'm sure chicks do that. I was just answering what I thought was your question.

Keramory wrote:

macluvin wrote:

Keramory wrote:

macluvin wrote:


How often was that discussion started by a woman? I should like to see their input more often otherwise it’s just a bunch of men arguing about it to the best of our abilities.

Started by her? Never that I've seen. No girl i know walks into a room and goes, "yo so let me tell you why this hobby sucks for me".

Usually it starts by someone commenting they never played with or seen a chick play 40k before and then it goes into some scientific debate with some other dudes. I've been guilty of chiming into it like I'm doing now.

You’re literally in a thread that started like that.

Maybe I misunderstood the question. I was referring to real life. I've never seen my wife or any girl approach someone in real life and start a debate on why chicks don't approach the hobby. And in case I'm misunderstood I'm not saying the Op is fake or anything. She's asking an online form about how to make friends in a store. I'm sure chicks do that. I was just answering what I thought was your question.

Maybe not referring to women as "chicks" is a good starting place, hm?

edited by ingtær.

Rihgu wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

macluvin wrote:
I’m saying that you should try to remove sex based biases from your decision making processes.

In general I see this on the supposedly pro-woman side quite often; in the talks about female space marines, there seems to be a lot of people who think that the Imperium automatically becomes more moral if it's woman doing the baby-killing, genocide, and brutal oppression, since women have some sort of special moral license that men do not. And in the real world, oftentimes there's an idea that women need special accommodations in the hobby as opposed to being treated like equal members of it.

I have literally never seen this take in my life and I have seen a huge number of female space marine debates.

Same. The pro-female space marine arguments are always more about representation than adjusting the factions morality. I'd love to see even a single link to an argument on Dakka were someone made the argument you are saying crops up "quite often".

 Octopoid wrote:
Empowering to the PLAYER, not the ASTARTES.

It wouldn't be empowering to the player, either, unless it was divorced of the context of the setting. Saying that women are now shown to be as expendable as men in a given media/setting would be *disempowering* to women, not *empowering*.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:
1) I don't think there are a lot of posts by men who say they feel excluded from the hobby.

That's because they know that nobody will care if they say so lol.

 Octopoid wrote:


Maybe not referring to women as "chicks" is a good starting place, hm?

I feel like you tried to zing me there but that has nothing to do with anything I was talking about with anyone. Starting place for what exactly? That thing i mentioned that doesn't happen? Does my wife not love me for saying chicks? I'm confused here.

 Octopoid wrote:
Maybe not referring to women as "chicks" is a good starting place, hm?

It's not. Culturally, in many areas it's considered normal and acceptable to refer to women as "chicks." Depends on where you live and your specific (sub)culture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:
Same. The pro-female space marine arguments are always more about representation than adjusting the factions morality.

Nah, that's pretty much it. It's a bunch of guys self-conscious that their hobby is male-dominated and their minis are mostly male, who think they need to signal otherwise for some reason. They just think that groups of men on their own are inherently immoral, whether in real life (a hobby group) or in fiction (Astartes).

 Ouze wrote:
I'd love to see even a single link to an argument on Dakka were someone made the argument you are saying crops up "quite often".

I'm not going to go back through those threads. If you've read them, you've seen what I'm talking about.

Fandom culture warriors being honest about their opposition's positions? Never going to happen.

Hecaton wrote:

It's not. Culturally, in many areas it's considered normal and acceptable to refer to women as "chicks." Depends on where you live and your specific (sub)culture.

Yeah... Just a reminder though that this isn't where you live, nor is it your (sub)culture: it's an international internet forum.

As for female representation in the game:

I think GW is doing better at this. I personally don't feel like we NEED female space marines, but I wouldn't care if they made them... and if I did, my only complaint would be that there are already enough models in the Space Marine range.

But I like having female models in DE units; I think that giving SoB and SoS real attention is good; female Inquisitors and Rogue Traders are great. I think they can and will go further at gender mixing CWE and Guard, and they've certainly laid the groundwork. I'd like to see more women at White Dwarf, though there are some. And I do think these things will help women feel more included in the hobby, and in the end I think that's a good thing for everyone.