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No, see, that's the thing - I don't treat them differently either. I treat them *all* with the same respect, how they want and ask to be treated. Their gender, race, or sexuality doesn't come into it, because they're all to be respected and treated well regardless. That means respecting pronouns, what language to use around them, what sort of humour they like, physical boundaries, conversation topics, energy levels, what we want to get out of our shared experience - that kind of respect and thought.
This is interesting in itself. Apologies for the tangent. I appreciate you're generally pretty considerate but does this mean with different people for example, you'd use different language, different humour, different approaches etc. Or just the same 'white bread', in all scenarios, just in case? I mean, I get it some things are absolutely a touchy and awkward subject with some people, or conversely a source of mirth and not with others. We all understand whats respectful for one isn't for another and I like that you point to physical boundaries as well. I mean, i speak to my mom differently than to my wife for example, and neither gets the crude language and dark humour that I share with some of the guys (and some of the ladies) from work, my physical interactions with guys will be totally different to those with girls.
.
Surely that means treating everyone eqully also means you treat everyone differently. And there in, and often unintentionally, lies the seed of conflict.
And one last point - as you say - 'how they want and ask to be treated' what happens when they don't say? What happens when they don't make up clear how they want to be treated? I lift weights, I run, I'm 6-foot. I'm plenty assertive when I need to be. I know plenty people that aren't. For a variety of reasons. They smile and laugh and shrug and accept it and just go with the flow. And when things bother them they don't actully step up and say so. They might bring it up later to other people but by then it's too late to resolve the original situation. I've been bullied in my past. Severely. I've been here too. When I didn't have the confidence to.step up and say 'that's bothering me'. This was my experience, in case yoy think I'm conflating this with the op's statement.
Also I will never trust a single persons judgement because a single person is usually wrong.
Well, at least I know who not to come to if I have any issues. That's a lovely vote of confidence there.
I.dunno. I might not agree with Sim all that often but even the great Gregory House M.D says 'everybody lies'.and lie might be a strong word but 'truth' is maleable based on perception. I've been burned by a lot of people claiming/saying stuff, who overreacted to a situation or misinterpreted things, or at worst pushing some supposed 'truth' of theirs that was anything but. No doubt, we all have. I'm pretty reasonable as a person, and for what it's worth on topic, find what the OP said to be within the realms of possibility (I've seen those things myself, both towards myself as a guy, and to my girl friends within geekdom and sportdom) and I am supportive and sympathetic. that said, I'm not always necessarily gonna believe someone just because they say so and i think it's unhealthily naive to hold the view people's statements should be taken at face value without question. And while cruel, That could also include you if you brought stuff to me. I've been stabbed in the back by plenty supposed 'best friends' in my life who lied to my face, you're just (respectfully!) a poster on a wargames forum I've never met in real life. And I hope you don't take that as any kind of a slight but basically Smudge, a bit of scepticism towards people isn't necessarily unhealthy.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/12/17 23:21:42
greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy
"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are"
No, see, that's the thing - I don't treat them differently either. I treat them *all* with the same respect, how they want and ask to be treated. Their gender, race, or sexuality doesn't come into it, because they're all to be respected and treated well regardless. That means respecting pronouns, what language to use around them, what sort of humour they like, physical boundaries, conversation topics, energy levels, what we want to get out of our shared experience - that kind of respect and thought.
This is interesting in itself. Apologies for the tangent. I appreciate you're generally pretty considerate but does this mean with different people for example, you'd use different language, different humour, different approaches etc. Or just the same 'white bread', in all scenarios, just in case?
I would assume the same basic level, which is simply just "being all round polite and kind", establish myself as a "safe space" (ie, open and willing to hear out concerns) and then being receptive to how they reciprocate. For example, I crack my knuckles often. I had one person tell me that they found that sound displeasing. I stopped cracking my knuckles when they were around, because that was the respectful thing to do, which they appreciated. Another example with hugs: I don't assume I can hug anyone, and definitely don't do so from behind - I will always make sure they see me first, I then either ask verbally or give a visual gesture, and wait for a response. It's just ensuring that I am receptive and responsive to what they want, and likewise, they return the favour on my end. We all end up feeling listened to, acknowledged, and comfortable with eachother. I wouldn't say I treat them differently depending on who they are, I'd say I generally just treat *everyone* with the same "fluffy" approach. Do I get things wrong? Yes, of course I do! But that's where I try and do better, to make sure I don't do that again, and that's the second way of respecting - learning and understanding what caused a problem, and not repeating it.
Essentially, it's all the same standard - listen, be receptive, and be aware of others. I don't really say that I treat people "differently" if I'm just doing that, I guess?
EDIT
And one last point - as you say - 'how they want and ask to be treated' what happens when they don't say? What happens when they don't make up clear how they want to be treated?
You have to establish yourself as a safe space in order to do that - but this can be done by asking if everything you're doing is okay, and if you're saying/doing anything that is making them uncomfortable. Things like asking before you make physical contact, asking their pronouns, "sorry, do you mind if...", "may I...", etc etc - essentially just making sure that they know you're being receptive to their wants. You can't mind read, but it's about making them feel as safe as possible, and then correcting any actions you do that they then tell you are an issue.
I lift weights, I run, I'm 6-foot. I'm plenty assertive when I need to be. I know plenty people that aren't. For a variety of reasons. They smile and laugh and shrug and accept it and just go with the flow. And when things bother them they don't actully step up and say so. They might bring it up later to other people but by then it's too late to resolve the original situation. I've been bullied in my past. Severely. I've been here too. When I didn't have the confidence to.step up and say 'that's bothering me'. This was my experience, in case yoy think I'm conflating this with the op's statement.
I understand, and I've had the same - which is why that "safe space" is so important - it might not be immediate, it likely won't be, but just any steps that we can take to say "hey, I'm listening, let me know what I can do to support you" go such a long way in establishing that relationship.
Another example (I'm full of them today) - in the team I work in, I found that several of the people I was responsible for were having issues with how the rest of my team were behaving. They chose to tell me about it, and not another member of that team, because they knew that I'd hear them out and that I was a safe space to hear those concerns without invalidating them. It's about building that trust, and it can take time, but it's important to try - and doubly important to make sure that comments that were said in this thread by some users are challenged and called out for destroying that sense of trust.
Also I will never trust a single persons judgement because a single person is usually wrong.
Well, at least I know who not to come to if I have any issues. That's a lovely vote of confidence there.
I.dunno. I might not agree with Sim all that often but even the great Gregory House M.D says 'everybody lies'.and lie might be a strong word but 'truth' is makeable based on perception I've been burned by a lot of people claiming/saying stuff, overreact to a situation or misinterpret things, or at worst pushing some supposed 'truth' of theirs that was anything but. No doubt, we all have. I'm pretty reasonable as a person, and for what it's worth on topic, find what the OP.said to be within the realms of possibility (I've seen those things myself, both towards myself as a guy, and to my girl friends within geekdom) and I am supportive and sympathetic. that said, I'm not aleays necessarily gonna believe someone just because they say so and i think it's unhealthily naive to hold the view people's statements should be taken at face value. a bit of scepticism towards people isn't necessarily unhealthy.
Scepticism, yes, but outright being told "I don't take single person judgement because it's wrong" in a thread where someone is sharing a personal experience that has affected them is deeply disencouraging and will only serve the purpose of ensuring that people don't come forwards to confide in you, because they know you don't believe them, or respect them enough to take on board their comments - and in a public thread, where anyone could be lurking and watching from their own screen, what kind of message does that send about Dakka as a whole?
It's why, when hearing out the experiences of other people, no matter how much you might question things immediately, you never invalidate that until you have more reason to, and you certainly never say that they're "usually wrong", because why would someone ever go back to you if they wanted your help? This is what I mean by the supposed "welcoming" side being a sham in practice: no-one says you need to fully believe them, but you absolutely definitely do not turn around and tell people that they're wrong, because all that'll do is drive them off. Otherwise, you're essentially advertising that you personally are not a safe space that someone can confide in you with, and then you're only contributing to creating that unsafe space.*
I can speak to personal experience with this - I very recently had a situation where I genuinely believed that some *very* bad stuff may have happened to me, and I confided those very real, very concerning fears to those around me. Luckily, I was proven wrong, but if my friends around me had turned around in that moment and told me that I was projecting my fears, and my concerns about very serious harm being done to me were all made up, I wouldn't consider ever trusting myself with them again. It's about support and hearing out, not shooting down valid feelings and hurt with cold logic.
*any mention of 'you' is meant as a general 'you', to illustrate the point widely, not a personal 'you'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/17 23:32:53
Sgt_Smudge wrote: ,
Essentially, it's all the same standard - listen, be receptive, and be aware of others. I don't really say that I treat people "differently" if I'm just doing that, I guess?
Apologies- I edited my post above as you were typing, I think.
EDIT: seems you caught the edit - mods can you please delete this post? Its not really relevant.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/17 23:35:57
greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy
"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are"
Deadnight wrote: Apologies- I edited my post above as you were typing, I think.
Not to worry, I went back and responded to that as well! Is all good!
Thing is, you can listen as much as you want, but what happens when they don't tell you?
I've known plenty geeks in my time and as a group, most of us are pretty lousy at reading body language and reading between the lines. Age and life experience helps, but honestly I know a lot of guys who have shoddy radars and are pretty poor at picking up signals and plenty guys and girls that struggle to broadcast as well.
I absolutely understand that - it's definitely not a perfect science at all, and if it is, I've certainly not mastered it! It's just a case of trying to be as open and available as possible, and just doing our best to listen and hear what people have to say. It can take a while for people to open up and share problems, but that doesn't make it not worth trying, I suppose.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It's in the thread title. You see the bit where it says "for women"? There's the gender aspect right there.
And what one person might view as sexism, might really just be a result of social awkwardness, as alluded to by many of the early responses. Sometimes it's hard to know what the situation really is, and even people IN the situation can mis-judge it.
Even eye-witness testimony is shown to be highly suspect in criminal court.
Always assume best intentions, but still don't automatically take everything at face value and based on one side of the story.
Even in the kindest of scenarios, it could be both.
Social awkwardness does not excuse or justify a sexist output. It may very well explain one, and be addressed through education.
Unless we shut that conversation right down because chicks be lyin' or some flavour of that gak that's being peddled here for the last ten pages, despite repeated instructions to stop pulling this bs.
Be fething better, Dakka.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/18 00:07:11
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Now, is there anything else to do with that topic in what I said that you wish to talk about?
Nope. This thread is already about ten pages too long.
I, for one cannot possibly imagine why.
Oh, wait, it was when some uppity woman thought she would... talk about her experiences and feelings.
Can't have that going unchallenged! To the incelmobile!*
*I wish that was hyperbolic, but Hecaton went right there in a mod-edited post. This is the community sickness that we're stuck with.
What did he say exactly? I am absolutely not putting it past me that I missed something or did not pick up some nuance, since I'm not a native speaker, but didn't he just say that such interactions can be misunderstandings? Because that's just....a fact? I'm not saying it was in OPs case though, cause I can't know that.
Catulle wrote: *I wish that was hyperbolic, but Hecaton went right there in a mod-edited post. This is the community sickness that we're stuck with.
What did he say exactly? I am absolutely not putting it past me that I missed something or did not pick up some nuance, since I'm not a native speaker, but didn't he just say that such interactions can be misunderstandings? Because that's just....a fact? I'm not saying it was in OPs case though, cause I can't know that.
Whatever it was Hecaton said, it was bad enough that the mods stepped in and deleted it, because there's still the remnants of something on this thread. I didn't see what was put, but considering that the mods chose to act on it, I'm not sure it was entirely benevolent. But, I never saw it, I'm purely going from the aftermath of what I see.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It's in the thread title. You see the bit where it says "for women"? There's the gender aspect right there.
And what one person might view as sexism, might really just be a result of social awkwardness, as alluded to by many of the early responses. Sometimes it's hard to know what the situation really is, and even people IN the situation can mis-judge it.
Even eye-witness testimony is shown to be highly suspect in criminal court.
Always assume best intentions, but still don't automatically take everything at face value and based on one side of the story.
Even in the kindest of scenarios, it could be both.
Social awkwardness does not excuse or justify a sexist output. It may very well explain one, and be addressed through education.
Unless we shut that conversation right down because chicks be lyin' or some flavour of that gak that's being peddled here for the last ten pages, despite repeated instructions to stop pulling this bs.
Be fething better, Dakka.
Question: If the person accused of sexism displays the same antisocial behavior towards a man, is it still sexism?
Insectum7 wrote:Question: If the person accused of sexism displays the same antisocial behavior towards a man, is it still sexism?
No. That's why I'm making it very clear that I'm talking about sexism, and not anti-social behaviour, so that we don't end up doing this - conflating anti-social behaviour (not in the thread title) with actual sexism (is in the thread title).
Tiberias wrote:I'm honestly asking here, has someone here ever met somebody in their playing group or game store who seriously said this hobby is not fit for women?
Maybe I'm just lucky that I haven't, cause thats just supremely idiotic.
I very much know for a fact that there are people with those opinions, yes. And you're absolutely right, it is supremely idiotic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/18 01:09:06
The trick to being decent to people is to not treat them like a woman, or a man, or a gay person, or a black person, but like a person.
Are you a person? Then you deserve the respect being a person entails right up until you prove, by your own actions, that you no longer deserve that respect.
Most people don't get this. Even the put upon groups fighting their individual battles for being treated better. No other criteria for what you are matters a single iota. You're a person. Done.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Insectum7 wrote:Question: If the person accused of sexism displays the same antisocial behavior towards a man, is it still sexism?
No. That's why I'm making it very clear that I'm talking about sexism, and not anti-social behaviour, so that we don't end up doing this - conflating anti-social behaviour (not in the thread title) with actual sexism (is in the thread title).
Do you take every thread title at face value though? It is the internet and all. Just because OP labels something as sexist does not make it so, just like "Unit X is OP broken11!!" Does not make it so.
I mean, it could be sexism too. But it might not be.
Tiberias wrote: I'm honestly asking here, has someone here ever met somebody in their playing group or game store who seriously said this hobby is not fit for women?
Maybe I'm just lucky that I haven't, cause thats just supremely idiotic.
Yes.
Have you never met someone who thought women ruined men hang outs? Who think people have to change their behavior or act different because someones girlfriend is around?
If your behavior needs to be hidden because x feature person is in the room then you should question the general quality of your standard behavior. (Not you specifically. Just a general statement to the people who do and say that kind of gak).
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Call me naive here but in a hypothetical situation where a person feels subjectively strangely eyed upon by another person in a store/group/whatever, shouldn't it be as simple as going up to that person and saying:
"Hey look, I'm just trying to have a good time here. Are we cool? You've been looking at me kinda strange."
If the other person says something along those lines of: "yeah, sorry. I've had a terrible week, I wasn't looking at you specifically, but just in your general direction."
Great, apparently just a misunderstanding. Problem solved, everyone goes their ways.
If the other person instead says something like: "Silence woman! You lot belong into the kitchen!"
Well, then that person is an idiot, and you should call him that. And anyone else present with a spine would also call that person an idiot.
Said idiot should subsequently be ignored/not included in games until that person got a grip and snapped out of their idiocy.
Lance845 wrote:The trick to being decent to people is to not treat them like a woman, or a man, or a gay person, or a black person, but like a person.
Exactly this! And that is also to mean that if a person feels like someone isn't treating them like a person, then you support them in that, and hear them out.
Insectum7 wrote:Question: If the person accused of sexism displays the same antisocial behavior towards a man, is it still sexism?
No. That's why I'm making it very clear that I'm talking about sexism, and not anti-social behaviour, so that we don't end up doing this - conflating anti-social behaviour (not in the thread title) with actual sexism (is in the thread title).
Do you take every thread title at face value though? It is the internet and all. Just because OP labels something as sexist does not make it so, just like "Unit X is OP broken11!!" Does not make it so.
Sure, but "Unit X is OP broken11!!" won't have anything to do with how someone may or may not being being poorly treated.
Do I take every thread title at face value, no. Do I take claims that someone might be being unfairly harassed or targeted with due respect and faith, instead of naysaying their experience? Yes. I don't care if it's the internet - until I know better, I cannot assume that the person behind that message wasn't genuine, because if they were real, and I contributed to those continued feelings of exclusion and marginalisation, then I'm no better than the people they came to us to seek help over, and that's not who I want to be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote: Call me naive here but in a hypothetical situation where a person feels subjectively strangely eyed upon by another person in a store/group/whatever, shouldn't it be as simple as going up to that person and saying:
"Hey look, I'm just trying to have a good time here. Are we cool? You've been looking at me kinda strange."
It *should* be, but not everyone feel safe enough to do that - and that comes from all genders: male, female, non-binary, agender, you name it, anyone can feel unsafe to speak up. And then with the continued cycle of people feeling unsafe and insecure, the situation would only get worse.
Hence why it's so important to create that safe space for people so that if those issues and misunderstandings do happen, they feel safe enough to say that, instead of feeling crushed by an environment where they're not sure if they can even speak up without someone turning to them and saying "you're normally wrong" about their feelings.
That's why this thread has been an excellent example of exactly how not to be welcoming - what sort of safe environment was created here? What sort of trust or faith was shown?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/18 01:38:27
I wouldn't say the person claiming "sexism" is wrong, but I'd listen to the story and try to contextualize just the same. Upon hearing the story, I might think they were wrong though.
Also, you'd get the impression sometimes that people get pretty hurt by whatever OP unit is in question.
Insectum7 wrote: I wouldn't say the person claiming "sexism" is wrong, but I'd listen to the story and try to contextualize just the same. Upon hearing the story, I might think they were wrong though.
Sure, I'm not disputing that - but you've got to admit, someone turning out publicly and saying what essentially amounts to "I don't believe you, because I don't believe any single story" is a brilliant way to make sure that no-one ever feels safe to share their concerns.
I'm not asking people to take folks' word as gospel - I'm asking them to just think before they start bashing back at what may have been an incredibly uncomfortable and painful experience for someone, and maybe be more vocally supportive and reassuring instead.
Tiberias wrote: Call me naive here but in a hypothetical situation where a person feels subjectively strangely eyed upon by another person in a store/group/whatever, shouldn't it be as simple as going up to that person and saying:
"Hey look, I'm just trying to have a good time here. Are we cool? You've been looking at me kinda strange."
It *should* be, but not everyone feel safe enough to do that - and that comes from all genders: male, female, non-binary, agender, you name it, anyone can feel unsafe to speak up. And then with the continued cycle of people feeling unsafe and insecure, the situation would only get worse.
Hence why it's so important to create that safe space for people so that if those issues and misunderstandings do happen, they feel safe enough to say that, instead of feeling crushed by an environment where they're not sure if they can even speak up without someone turning to them and saying "you're normally wrong" about their feelings.
That's why this thread has been an excellent example of exactly how not to be welcoming - what sort of safe environment was created here? What sort of trust or faith was shown?
Again, call me naive here. But why don't people feel safe to ask that? It's just a simple question to clear up an uncomfortable situation that maybe, hopefully is just a misunderstanding between two people. Of course if we're talking about a situation in a game store or within a group of people that maybe at least know each other. I obviously entirely understand why a woman would feel uncomfortable or unsafe confronting some dude in a park or public transport in that scenario. But what's the worst that can happen in your local game store? That some immature douche throws a hissy fit about...idk men are better than women or something....well, let him. He's just cementing his status as an idiot.
Insectum7 wrote: I wouldn't say the person claiming "sexism" is wrong, but I'd listen to the story and try to contextualize just the same. Upon hearing the story, I might think they were wrong though.
Sure, I'm not disputing that - but you've got to admit, someone turning out publicly and saying what essentially amounts to "I don't believe you, because I don't believe any single story" is a brilliant way to make sure that no-one ever feels safe to share their concerns.
I'm not asking people to take folks' word as gospel - I'm asking them to just think before they start bashing back at what may have been an incredibly uncomfortable and painful experience for someone, and maybe be more vocally supportive and reassuring instead.
I get what you are saying. But there is a fine, but very important, distinction here. Brushing someone's subjective story off as untrue or unimportant or not representative is not a good thing to do, but it is not the same as pointing out that maybe there was just a misunderstanding with the other party in that conversation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/18 01:51:45
Insectum7 wrote: I wouldn't say the person claiming "sexism" is wrong, but I'd listen to the story and try to contextualize just the same. Upon hearing the story, I might think they were wrong though.
Sure, I'm not disputing that - but you've got to admit, someone turning out publicly and saying what essentially amounts to "I don't believe you, because I don't believe any single story" is a brilliant way to make sure that no-one ever feels safe to share their concerns.
I'm not asking people to take folks' word as gospel - I'm asking them to just think before they start bashing back at what may have been an incredibly uncomfortable and painful experience for someone, and maybe be more vocally supportive and reassuring instead.
I'd say that most of the initial page was pretty reasonable, and the majority of the responses felt appropriate. But it spun into polarization at some point. Post polarization I'm not surprised some extreme things were said. That's just how it goes.
Tiberias wrote: Again, call me naive here. But why don't people feel safe to ask that? It's just a simple question to clear up an uncomfortable situation that maybe, hopefully is just a misunderstanding between two people. Of course if we're talking about a situation in a game store or within a group of people that maybe at least know each other. I obviously entirely understand why a woman would feel uncomfortable or unsafe confronting some dude in a park or public transport in that scenario. But what's the worst that can happen in your local game store? That some immature douche throws a hissy fit about...idk men are better than women or something....well, let him. He's just cementing his status as an idiot.
Social anxiety, for one.
Other interpersonal difficulties could also affect someone's confidence or tact in handling the matter.
Another is the fear of confrontation, and threat of reprisal, or from then causing a scene which might see them ejected and shunned from the group and becoming a social outcast.
There could also be the worry that they *are* just misunderstanding, and would then be responsible for a perceived awkwardness.
All the fears about "some dude in a park or public transport" also apply to your local game store, because evidently, by the fact they haven't felt safe to ask, they don't regard it as a safe space for all the aforementioned reasons. Sure, an immature douche might throw a hissy fit. Is that a pleasant thing to have screamed in your face? Of course not. And what if everyone else in the room agrees with him, that you don't belong there? Evidently, you can't be sure, otherwise this would be a safe space, and it evidently isn't. What if the guy gets violent? You don't know he won't any more so than the dude in a park or on public transport won't. You simply don't know because you don't trust the environment you're in, and unfortunately, not everyone *does* trust the environment of the local store.
That's why it's so important to build that trust and support, so that people *can* feel safe to ask that - because as simple a question as it may seem, when you're in a marginalised position, any question can feel fraught with risk and danger.
There's countless reasons why someone would feel afraid to ask. We've seen a couple examples in this thread.
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Tiberias wrote:I get what you are saying. But there is a fine, but very important, distinction here. Brushing someone's subjective story off as untrue or unimportant or not representative is not a good thing to do, but it is not the same as pointing out that maybe there was just a misunderstanding with the other party in that conversation.
But what is that saying? By saying there may have been a misunderstanding, you are *still* implying that their account is false, and that their feelings aren't valid. It doesn't reassure them, it doesn't offer any real help, and all it really helps to do is make people doubt their own senses and experiences, and that's an incredibly messy thing.
There's a tactful way to do it, but it definitely doesn't spring from making people question their own experiences in a thread where they talk about them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/18 02:04:23
Tiberias wrote: Again, call me naive here. But why don't people feel safe to ask that? It's just a simple question to clear up an uncomfortable situation that maybe, hopefully is just a misunderstanding between two people. Of course if we're talking about a situation in a game store or within a group of people that maybe at least know each other. I obviously entirely understand why a woman would feel uncomfortable or unsafe confronting some dude in a park or public transport in that scenario. But what's the worst that can happen in your local game store? That some immature douche throws a hissy fit about...idk men are better than women or something....well, let him. He's just cementing his status as an idiot.
Social anxiety, for one.
Other interpersonal difficulties could also affect someone's confidence or tact in handling the matter.
Another is the fear of confrontation, and threat of reprisal, or from then causing a scene which might see them ejected and shunned from the group and becoming a social outcast.
There could also be the worry that they *are* just misunderstanding, and would then be responsible for a perceived awkwardness.
All the fears about "some dude in a park or public transport" also apply to your local game store, because evidently, by the fact they haven't felt safe to ask, they don't regard it as a safe space for all the aforementioned reasons. Sure, an immature douche might throw a hissy fit. Is that a pleasant thing to have screamed in your face? Of course not. And what if everyone else in the room agrees with him, that you don't belong there? Evidently, you can't be sure, otherwise this would be a safe space, and it evidently isn't. What if the guy gets violent? You don't know he won't any more so than the dude in a park or on public transport won't. You simply don't know because you don't trust the environment you're in, and unfortunately, not everyone *does* trust the environment of the local store.
That's why it's so important to build that trust and support, so that people *can* feel safe to ask that - because as simple a question as it may seem, when you're in a marginalised position, any question can feel fraught with risk and danger.
There's countless reasons why someone would feel afraid to ask. We've seen a couple examples in this thread.
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Tiberias wrote:I get what you are saying. But there is a fine, but very important, distinction here. Brushing someone's subjective story off as untrue or unimportant or not representative is not a good thing to do, but it is not the same as pointing out that maybe there was just a misunderstanding with the other party in that conversation.
But what is that saying? By saying there may have been a misunderstanding, you are *still* implying that their account is false, and that their feelings aren't valid. It doesn't reassure them, it doesn't offer any real help, and all it really helps to do is make people doubt their own senses and experiences, and that's an incredibly messy thing.
There's a tactful way to do it, but it definitely doesn't spring from making people question their own experiences in a thread where they talk about them.
Ok, but I don't understand how you create more of a safe space in a game store as to where you can openly discuss and express your opinions. Thats simply how human interaction works, doesn't it? People having discussions that sometimes get heated.
And if some immature douche throws a hissy fit, it probably won't be just one person with a spine in that store who opposes him. And I can only speak for my game store here, but if someone were to attack a woman or a man for that matter in the game store...let alone for just asking a simple question...that guy would have at least 3 guys on top of him, beating his ass, then the police would arrest that idiot and he'd likely be charged with aggravated assault. I seriously hope though that everyone on this forum lives in a place where such things don't happen or happen exceedingly rarely.
Tiberias wrote:I get what you are saying. But there is a fine, but very important, distinction here. Brushing someone's subjective story off as untrue or unimportant or not representative is not a good thing to do, but it is not the same as pointing out that maybe there was just a misunderstanding with the other party in that conversation.
But what is that saying? By saying there may have been a misunderstanding, you are *still* implying that their account is false, and that their feelings aren't valid. It doesn't reassure them, it doesn't offer any real help, and all it really helps to do is make people doubt their own senses and experiences, and that's an incredibly messy thing.
There's a tactful way to do it, but it definitely doesn't spring from making people question their own experiences in a thread where they talk about them.
That one I don't understand. If in that hypothetical scenario it was just an honest misunderstanding then their feeling can be invalid. It was cleared up that person B didn't even target person A with their looks, but was rather just in thought. So person As feelings about beeing uncomfortable were not valid in that case.
And people should definitely question their experiences when interacting with other people, or at least try to clear them up. And before someone misunderstands me here, I am not talking about severe cases where someone should question their experience when they were physically assaulted or some messed up gak. But in that hypothetical scenario we were discussing? Yeah.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/18 02:23:05
Tiberias wrote: Again, call me naive here. But why don't people feel safe to ask that? It's just a simple question to clear up an uncomfortable situation that maybe, hopefully is just a misunderstanding between two people. Of course if we're talking about a situation in a game store or within a group of people that maybe at least know each other. I obviously entirely understand why a woman would feel uncomfortable or unsafe confronting some dude in a park or public transport in that scenario. But what's the worst that can happen in your local game store? That some immature douche throws a hissy fit about...idk men are better than women or something....well, let him. He's just cementing his status as an idiot.
Social anxiety, for one.
Other interpersonal difficulties could also affect someone's confidence or tact in handling the matter.
Another is the fear of confrontation, and threat of reprisal, or from then causing a scene which might see them ejected and shunned from the group and becoming a social outcast.
There could also be the worry that they *are* just misunderstanding, and would then be responsible for a perceived awkwardness.
All the fears about "some dude in a park or public transport" also apply to your local game store, because evidently, by the fact they haven't felt safe to ask, they don't regard it as a safe space for all the aforementioned reasons. Sure, an immature douche might throw a hissy fit. Is that a pleasant thing to have screamed in your face? Of course not. And what if everyone else in the room agrees with him, that you don't belong there? Evidently, you can't be sure, otherwise this would be a safe space, and it evidently isn't. What if the guy gets violent? You don't know he won't any more so than the dude in a park or on public transport won't. You simply don't know because you don't trust the environment you're in, and unfortunately, not everyone *does* trust the environment of the local store.
That's why it's so important to build that trust and support, so that people *can* feel safe to ask that - because as simple a question as it may seem, when you're in a marginalised position, any question can feel fraught with risk and danger.
There's countless reasons why someone would feel afraid to ask. We've seen a couple examples in this thread.
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Tiberias wrote:I get what you are saying. But there is a fine, but very important, distinction here. Brushing someone's subjective story off as untrue or unimportant or not representative is not a good thing to do, but it is not the same as pointing out that maybe there was just a misunderstanding with the other party in that conversation.
But what is that saying? By saying there may have been a misunderstanding, you are *still* implying that their account is false, and that their feelings aren't valid. It doesn't reassure them, it doesn't offer any real help, and all it really helps to do is make people doubt their own senses and experiences, and that's an incredibly messy thing.
There's a tactful way to do it, but it definitely doesn't spring from making people question their own experiences in a thread where they talk about them.
Ok, but I don't understand how you create more of a safe space in a game store as to where you can openly discuss and express your opinions. Thats simply how human interaction works, doesn't it? People having discussions that sometimes get heated.
And if some immature douche throws a hissy fit, it probably won't be just one person with a spine in that store who opposes him.
This is assumed wishful thinking. History, and modern day, is jam packed full of examples where that did not and does not take place. What kind of blessed childhood did you have where bullies were talked down and shunned by the crowd of onlookers? There is a reason people call the lone voices that speak up brave and heroes. Because the crowd mostly sits back and watches.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Tiberias wrote: Again, call me naive here. But why don't people feel safe to ask that? It's just a simple question to clear up an uncomfortable situation that maybe, hopefully is just a misunderstanding between two people. Of course if we're talking about a situation in a game store or within a group of people that maybe at least know each other. I obviously entirely understand why a woman would feel uncomfortable or unsafe confronting some dude in a park or public transport in that scenario. But what's the worst that can happen in your local game store? That some immature douche throws a hissy fit about...idk men are better than women or something....well, let him. He's just cementing his status as an idiot.
Social anxiety, for one.
Other interpersonal difficulties could also affect someone's confidence or tact in handling the matter.
Another is the fear of confrontation, and threat of reprisal, or from then causing a scene which might see them ejected and shunned from the group and becoming a social outcast.
There could also be the worry that they *are* just misunderstanding, and would then be responsible for a perceived awkwardness.
All the fears about "some dude in a park or public transport" also apply to your local game store, because evidently, by the fact they haven't felt safe to ask, they don't regard it as a safe space for all the aforementioned reasons. Sure, an immature douche might throw a hissy fit. Is that a pleasant thing to have screamed in your face? Of course not. And what if everyone else in the room agrees with him, that you don't belong there? Evidently, you can't be sure, otherwise this would be a safe space, and it evidently isn't. What if the guy gets violent? You don't know he won't any more so than the dude in a park or on public transport won't. You simply don't know because you don't trust the environment you're in, and unfortunately, not everyone *does* trust the environment of the local store.
That's why it's so important to build that trust and support, so that people *can* feel safe to ask that - because as simple a question as it may seem, when you're in a marginalised position, any question can feel fraught with risk and danger.
There's countless reasons why someone would feel afraid to ask. We've seen a couple examples in this thread.
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Tiberias wrote:I get what you are saying. But there is a fine, but very important, distinction here. Brushing someone's subjective story off as untrue or unimportant or not representative is not a good thing to do, but it is not the same as pointing out that maybe there was just a misunderstanding with the other party in that conversation.
But what is that saying? By saying there may have been a misunderstanding, you are *still* implying that their account is false, and that their feelings aren't valid. It doesn't reassure them, it doesn't offer any real help, and all it really helps to do is make people doubt their own senses and experiences, and that's an incredibly messy thing.
There's a tactful way to do it, but it definitely doesn't spring from making people question their own experiences in a thread where they talk about them.
Ok, but I don't understand how you create more of a safe space in a game store as to where you can openly discuss and express your opinions. Thats simply how human interaction works, doesn't it? People having discussions that sometimes get heated.
And if some immature douche throws a hissy fit, it probably won't be just one person with a spine in that store who opposes him.
This is assumed wishful thinking. History, and modern day, is jam packed full of examples where that did not and does not take place. What kind of blessed childhood did you have where bullies were talked down and shunned by the crowd of onlookers? There is a reason people call the lone voices that speak up brave and heroes. Because the crowd mostly sits back and watches.
Your condescending question aside, I assume we are talking about adults here. And while I am fully aware that adults can be very bad bullies, the chances of having civil discourse with an adult is still higher than with a petulant child who steals their classmates lunch money.
I'd be interested to hear your solution other than to welcome conversation and discussion with the people concerning the issue at your local store for example.
When I say history and the modern day I am talking about adults. Post 9/11 Muslims being harrassed. Modern day Muslims in the UK. The very partisan politics that are occurring all around the world. Pro Life/Pro Choice protests outside abortion clinics.
Women still make less money than men on average. Do you think a reasonable conversation between adults has solved that yet?
I am not saying conversation isn't the way to go. I am saying it's not as easy as simply having a conversation between 2 individuals. When we are discussing gatekeeping there are bigger underlying issues that require years or decades of societal change. And it has never been as simple as one person asking to be respected and the crowd supporting them. Thinking for some reason that that would simply work out is blind optimistic naivety at best.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/18 02:41:08
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: When I say history and the modern day I am talking about adults. Post 9/11 Muslims being harrassed. Modern day Muslims in the UK. The very partisan politics that are occurring all around the world. Pro Life/Pro Choice protests outside abortion clinics.
Women still make less money than men on average. Do you think a reasonable conversation between adults has solved that yet?
I am not saying conversation isn't the way to go. I am saying it's not as easy as simply having a conversation between 2 individuals. When we are discussing gatekeeping there are bigger underlying issues that require years or decades of societal change. And it has never been as simple as one person asking to be respected and the crowd supporting them.
Ok, but what's the solution then other than to try to engage people in civil discourse to either clear up misunderstanings, try to convince them to change their mind with arguments or if they throw a hissy fit, tell them they are idiots and refuse to play with them/not include them in playing groups (when regarding warhammer).
Edit: you just simply can't make laws that protect you from someone looking gloomy or hostile. Or some idiot throwing a hissy fit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/18 02:45:37
Lance845 wrote: When I say history and the modern day I am talking about adults. Post 9/11 Muslims being harrassed. Modern day Muslims in the UK. The very partisan politics that are occurring all around the world. Pro Life/Pro Choice protests outside abortion clinics.
Women still make less money than men on average. Do you think a reasonable conversation between adults has solved that yet?
I am not saying conversation isn't the way to go. I am saying it's not as easy as simply having a conversation between 2 individuals. When we are discussing gatekeeping there are bigger underlying issues that require years or decades of societal change. And it has never been as simple as one person asking to be respected and the crowd supporting them.
Ok, but what's the solution then other than to try to engage people in civil discourse to either clear up misunderstanings, try to convince them to change their mind with arguments or if they throw a hissy fit, tell them they are idiots and refuse to play with them/not include them in playing groups (when regarding warhammer).
Again, I am not saying that isn't the solution. I am saying expecting it to simply work is misplaced optimism. Historically, the crowd does not support you. Individuals don't engage in that because going to a game store shouldn't be a fight for fair treatment. And frankly it's exhausting to constantly battle.
You saying it's the solution isn't wrong. You thinking it's that simple is completely wrong. And thats all the reason in the world for why people don't do it.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: When I say history and the modern day I am talking about adults. Post 9/11 Muslims being harrassed. Modern day Muslims in the UK. The very partisan politics that are occurring all around the world. Pro Life/Pro Choice protests outside abortion clinics.
Women still make less money than men on average. Do you think a reasonable conversation between adults has solved that yet?
I am not saying conversation isn't the way to go. I am saying it's not as easy as simply having a conversation between 2 individuals. When we are discussing gatekeeping there are bigger underlying issues that require years or decades of societal change. And it has never been as simple as one person asking to be respected and the crowd supporting them.
Ok, but what's the solution then other than to try to engage people in civil discourse to either clear up misunderstanings, try to convince them to change their mind with arguments or if they throw a hissy fit, tell them they are idiots and refuse to play with them/not include them in playing groups (when regarding warhammer).
Again, I am not saying that isn't the solution. I am saying expecting it to simply work is misplaced optimism. Historically, the crowd does not support you. Individuals don't engage in that because going to a game store shouldn't be a fight for fair treatment. And frankly it's exhausting to constantly battle.
You saying it's the solution isn't wrong. You thinking it's that simple is completely wrong. And thats all the reason in the world for why people don't do it.
Sure, I am not denying that fighting for equal rights is not easy. Nor am I claiming that women are not treated unfairly.
But in the hypothetical scenario sgt smudge and I initally were talking about, it was just essentially about clearing up a potential misunderstanding. How is that fighting for equal treatment?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/18 02:53:51
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It's in the thread title. You see the bit where it says "for women"? There's the gender aspect right there.
And what one person might view as sexism, might really just be a result of social awkwardness, as alluded to by many of the early responses. Sometimes it's hard to know what the situation really is, and even people IN the situation can mis-judge it.
Even eye-witness testimony is shown to be highly suspect in criminal court.
Always assume best intentions, but still don't automatically take everything at face value and based on one side of the story.
Even in the kindest of scenarios, it could be both.
Social awkwardness does not excuse or justify a sexist output. It may very well explain one, and be addressed through education.
Unless we shut that conversation right down because chicks be lyin' or some flavour of that gak that's being peddled here for the last ten pages, despite repeated instructions to stop pulling this bs.
Be fething better, Dakka.
Question: If the person accused of sexism displays the same antisocial behavior towards a man, is it still sexism?
.
In no way was any individual "accused" of "sexism" - all of this is a sad, desperate attempt to deny the n^x time this fething community has been called on their gak and retreated again into the no-wimminz zone. We have actual fascists like Aphyon (neo-nazi) running around because his mod-mates are deleting his white nationalist posting history so useful idiots like Formosa can continue to pollute the well. This socks, and we have to do better.
Because a historical precedent is all the reason a person needs to not start the conversation of cleaning up a potential misunderstanding.
People, adults or otherwise, are not reasonable. The crowd won't back you (in general), and it's a risk to even start to engage that history says you are going to lose (at least in the sort term). You are asking why x person doesn't simply do y. Because I bet like all of us, they have a life time of experiences that tell them it's not worth our time just to lose.
No it's not good in the long run. But it's the facts of why things are the way they are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/18 02:59:34
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
