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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/01/27/get-your-new-space-marines-heroes-onto-the-tabletop-with-these-free-datasheets-from-vigilus-alone/

The Captain can make extra attacks, but not with a relic "that replaces"... The Mastercrafted says mastercrafted _____ are considered a Chapter Relic but to add to the current weapon not that it's replaced.

A mastercrafted weapon is considered a chapter relic.

MASTER-CRAFTED WEAPON

Within the armouries of each Space Marine Chapter, the finest artificers seek to fashion weapons of ornate magnificence and utter lethality. Those forged upon Macragge are breathtaking examples of the weaponsmith’s craft, be they potent firearms or gilt-chased blades.

When you give a model this Relic, select one weapon that model is equipped with (this cannot be a weapon whose profile includes the word ‘master-crafted’). Add 1 to the Damage characteristic of that weapon. That weapon is considered to be a Chapter Relic.

It says when you give a model this relic, and this relic refers to the mastercrafted weapon, which replaces your normal weapon. Actually it doesnt say it replaces it, but how else can it be mastercrafted, when its not a different weapon ? And its considered a chapter relic. The answer is no, you cant use gravis fighting styles with mastercrafted weapons.

 p5freak wrote:
A mastercrafted weapon is considered a chapter relic.

MASTER-CRAFTED WEAPON

Within the armouries of each Space Marine Chapter, the finest artificers seek to fashion weapons of ornate magnificence and utter lethality. Those forged upon Macragge are breathtaking examples of the weaponsmith’s craft, be they potent firearms or gilt-chased blades.

When you give a model this Relic, select one weapon that model is equipped with (this cannot be a weapon whose profile includes the word ‘master-crafted’). Add 1 to the Damage characteristic of that weapon. That weapon is considered to be a Chapter Relic.

It says when you give a model this relic, and this relic refers to the mastercrafted weapon, which replaces your normal weapon. Actually it doesnt say it replaces it, but how else can it be mastercrafted, when its not a different weapon ? And its considered a chapter relic. The answer is no, you cant use gravis fighting styles with mastercrafted weapons.

There is no actual rules basis for the underlined text (Emphasis mine)

It does not say it replaces it.

I think an FAQ may be in order here.

 p5freak wrote:
A mastercrafted weapon is considered a chapter relic.

MASTER-CRAFTED WEAPON

Within the armouries of each Space Marine Chapter, the finest artificers seek to fashion weapons of ornate magnificence and utter lethality. Those forged upon Macragge are breathtaking examples of the weaponsmith’s craft, be they potent firearms or gilt-chased blades.

When you give a model this Relic, select one weapon that model is equipped with (this cannot be a weapon whose profile includes the word ‘master-crafted’). Add 1 to the Damage characteristic of that weapon. That weapon is considered to be a Chapter Relic.

It says when you give a model this relic, and this relic refers to the mastercrafted weapon, which replaces your normal weapon. Actually it doesnt say it replaces it, but how else can it be mastercrafted, when its not a different weapon ? And its considered a chapter relic. The answer is no, you cant use gravis fighting styles with mastercrafted weapons.

Because it also says: Add 1 to the Damage characteristic of that weapon - how can you had 1D if you replaced it. I suspect RAW you can Mastercraft the new guy's sword or fist, and RAI is anybody's guess. I think it was written that way to prevent Teeth of Terra plus Gravis Fighting Styles making a 10ish attack chaff blender while still allowing Mastercrafting. But I also think that's giving them a gigantic benefit of the doubt.

"That weapon is considered to be a Chapter Relic"

Seems extremely clear to me. No Fighting Styles for Master-Crafted Weapons.

 MinMax wrote:
"That weapon is considered to be a Chapter Relic"

Seems extremely clear to me. No Fighting Styles for Master-Crafted Weapons.

Reread the rules for Gravis Fighting Styles then. No relic THAT REPLACES...

 MinMax wrote:
"That weapon is considered to be a Chapter Relic"

Seems extremely clear to me. No Fighting Styles for Master-Crafted Weapons.

It is a relic, but not one that has replaced the power fist. Yo can tell this because it improves the damage char, which it cannot possibly do if it replaced the weapon

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A mastercrafted weapon is considered a chapter relic.

MASTER-CRAFTED WEAPON

Within the armouries of each Space Marine Chapter, the finest artificers seek to fashion weapons of ornate magnificence and utter lethality. Those forged upon Macragge are breathtaking examples of the weaponsmith’s craft, be they potent firearms or gilt-chased blades.

When you give a model this Relic, select one weapon that model is equipped with (this cannot be a weapon whose profile includes the word ‘master-crafted’). Add 1 to the Damage characteristic of that weapon. That weapon is considered to be a Chapter Relic.

It says when you give a model this relic, and this relic refers to the mastercrafted weapon, which replaces your normal weapon. Actually it doesnt say it replaces it, but how else can it be mastercrafted, when its not a different weapon ? And its considered a chapter relic. The answer is no, you cant use gravis fighting styles with mastercrafted weapons.

There is no actual rules basis for the underlined text (Emphasis mine)

It does not say it replaces it.

I think an FAQ may be in order here.

I agree that it doesnt say that it replaces it. But, a master crafted weapon is a relic. How does a model get that relic when it doesnt replace/substitute/exchange the normal weapon the model has, against that relic ? Its not like that model has its normal weapon, and the relic. The model gets that relic, and doesnt have its normal weapon anymore. How does that happen, when its not replaced/substituted/exchanged ?

Not all relics replace existing equipment. Some just get added to the model and have an effect. Master-Crafted seems to sit on a middle line. It doesn’t replace equipment, but changes existing equipment.

 p5freak wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A mastercrafted weapon is considered a chapter relic.

MASTER-CRAFTED WEAPON

Within the armouries of each Space Marine Chapter, the finest artificers seek to fashion weapons of ornate magnificence and utter lethality. Those forged upon Macragge are breathtaking examples of the weaponsmith’s craft, be they potent firearms or gilt-chased blades.

When you give a model this Relic, select one weapon that model is equipped with (this cannot be a weapon whose profile includes the word ‘master-crafted’). Add 1 to the Damage characteristic of that weapon. That weapon is considered to be a Chapter Relic.

It says when you give a model this relic, and this relic refers to the mastercrafted weapon, which replaces your normal weapon. Actually it doesnt say it replaces it, but how else can it be mastercrafted, when its not a different weapon ? And its considered a chapter relic. The answer is no, you cant use gravis fighting styles with mastercrafted weapons.

There is no actual rules basis for the underlined text (Emphasis mine)

It does not say it replaces it.

I think an FAQ may be in order here.

I agree that it doesnt say that it replaces it. But, a master crafted weapon is a relic. How does a model get that relic when it doesnt replace/substitute/exchange the normal weapon the model has, against that relic ? Its not like that model has its normal weapon, and the relic. The model gets that relic, and doesnt have its normal weapon anymore. How does that happen, when its not replaced/substituted/exchanged ?

Maybe the weapon the model has is upgraded, and not replaced/substituted/exchanged.

Same weapon better stats.

An FAQ would make things clear though.

From page 75 of Ultramarines supplement:

"...you can give one of the following Special-issue Wargear Relics to an...instead of giving them a Relic from Codex: Space Marines. These are considered to be Chapter Relics for all rules purposes... Note that some Relics are weapons that replace one of the model's existing weapons."

When you use Master-Crafted Weapon on a weapon a model has it replaces it on the datasheet. For example on the new Gravis Captain instead of having a Powerfist it would have a Master-Crafted Powerfist which doesn't work with the special rule.

 KingGarland wrote:
From page 75 of Ultramarines supplement:

"...you can give one of the following Special-issue Wargear Relics to an...instead of giving them a Relic from Codex: Space Marines. These are considered to be Chapter Relics for all rules purposes... Note that some Relics are weapons that replace one of the model's existing weapons."

When you use Master-Crafted Weapon on a weapon a model has it replaces it on the datasheet. For example on the new Gravis Captain instead of having a Powerfist it would have a Master-Crafted Powerfist which doesn't work with the special rule.

(Emphasis mine)

The underlined is not always true...

It literally says "some Relics are weapons that replace one of the model's existing weapons"

So only some Relics replace, some, not all.

So your statement that says "instead of having a Powerfist it would have a Master-Crafted Powerfist which doesn't work with the special rule." is not true.

from Page 75 as well without chopping the pertinent text-
When you give a model this relic, select one weapon that model is equipped with (this cannot be (unrelated rules restriction snipped for copyright)) Add 1 to the damage characteristic of that weapon. That weapon is considered to be a Chapter Relic.

So THAT WEAPON is on the model/datasheet to begin with. You select THAT WEAPON. You add 1D to THAT WEAPON. THAT WEAPON is considered to be a Chapter Relic.

By RAW its pretty clear you start with THAT WEAPON and you finish with THAT WEAPON, so it wasn't "replaced". By RAW you don't even add "Master-Crafted" to the name of THAT WEAPON. you just add 1D.

As I said before though, by RAI is anybody's guess. They worked awful hard to RAW Master Crafted working for it to be an accident. They're also often bad enough at this most of us can absolutely believe they did it by accident anyway.

 p5freak wrote:



I agree that it doesnt say that it replaces it. But, a master crafted weapon is a relic. How does a model get that relic when it doesnt replace/substitute/exchange the normal weapon the model has, against that relic ? Its not like that model has its normal weapon, and the relic. The model gets that relic, and doesnt have its normal weapon anymore. How does that happen, when its not replaced/substituted/exchanged ?

as others have said, thiers plenty of Relics that to NOT replace the weapon the user is carrying. for a space marine example, in the deathwatch codex, both the Banebolts of Eryxia and the Artificer Bolt Cache are relics/special issue wargear that give abilites to bolt weapons but to not actaully replace them, they are still the same weapons and even have the same profiles (unless you use the relics ability to change them).

I cant declare the RAI, but RAW i'd say your good. master crafting a weapon does not, in the context of the rules, replace it, just gives you a REALLY GOOD quality version of it, and you would be able to use the gravis styles with that master crafted version.

I think that going by RAW, you are allowed to use Gravis Fighting Styles if you take the Mastercrafted Relic and apply to your Chainsword, Power Sword, or Power Fist.

Personally, I know GW will go and update Gravis Fighting Styles to not work if the weapon in question is a Chapter Relic.

More importantly, I'll wonder why you don't the Mastercrafted Relic on the Boltstorm Gauntlet where you get 2 Damage on the ranged profile and 3 Damage on melee profile and still benefit from Gravis Fighting Styles on the secondary weapon?

 alextroy wrote:


More importantly, I'll wonder why you don't the Mastercrafted Relic on the Boltstorm Gauntlet where you get 2 Damage on the ranged profile and 3 Damage on melee profile and still benefit from Gravis Fighting Styles on the secondary weapon?

That doesn't work, according to the FAQ Boltstorm (Shooting) and Boltstorm (Melee) are two different weapons.
Q. If I select a weapon with more than one profile for the Master-crafted Weapon Special Issue Wargear (e.g. a plasma pistol),
does the increased Damage characteristic apply to all profiles of that
weapon, or must I select which profile of that weapon is improved?
A: Add 1 to the Damage characteristic of all profiles of that weapon. Note that weapons with similar names but listed separately
in the weapons table, such as boltstorm gauntlet (melee) and
boltstorm gauntlet (shooting), are considered separate weapons,
rather than the same weapon with different profiles

The part I'm REALLY looking forward to is the people trying to use Gravis Fighting styles on the Powerfist part of the Boltstorm Gauntlet he comes equipped with. I'm sure both RAW and RAI says you can't, but common sense says it's a freaking power fist with a super pistol welded onto it. But I'm also not going to be surprised when they change it to common sense in around 11th or 12th.