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I've been playing around with datasheets recently to see how roughly GW might change them to a 9th edition standard. Here's what I've come up with, I started with Scions first as they only have 4 datasheets which I consolidated into 3. One thing I'm hesitant on doing is making everything match what comes in the kit. As we'd have a strange situation limiting Scion squads to 1 grenade launcher, 1 flamer, 1 melta, and 1 plasma gun.

Tempestor Prime and Command Squad:

Changes:
- Command Squad datasheet deleted, instead they've been consolidated with their Officer. Like prior editions.
- Increased Scion leadership to 7. Always seemed strange the most elite soldiers of the Astra Militarum had the same Ld as Guardsmen.
- Hot-shot laspistol ranged increased to 12 inch.
- Hot-shot lasgun ranged increased to 24 inch.
- Command Rod no longer removes pistol option. Similar to how a Canoness can have a plasma pistol; powersword; rod of office wargear loadout. It could also be assumed the Prime could holster their pistol or scabbard their chainsword.
- Medi-packs, Platoon standard, and Vox-casters have been updated to a 9th edition standard. See things like Ad-Mech datatethers.
- I've also given the Tempestor Prime a refractor field because it always seemed strange they never had one.
- Command Squad ability prevents models from giving additional Assassinate points, it's also worded to prevent issues with wounding if the Officer manages to have a higher toughness. Currently the only instance in the codex of that is Straken and the Vostroyan relic.

Militarum Tempestus Scions:

Changes:
- Tempestor comes with a hot-shot lasgun.
- Increased Scion leadership to 7. Always seemed strange the most elite soldiers of the Astra Militarum had the same Ld as Guardsmen.
- No more free Tempestor plasma pistol.
- Hot-shot laspistol ranged increased to 12 inch.
- Hot-shot lasgun ranged increased to 24 inch.
- Vox-caster updated to 9th edition standard. See things like Ad-Mech datatethers.

Taurox Prime:

Changes:
- Point reduction, costed similar to new GSC Goliath. Goliath is more survivable, but the Taurox Prime has better firepower and mobility.
- Rebalanced weapon upgrades, reduced the cost of the missile launch, buffed and increased cost of gatling cannon.
- Added access to vehicle equipment. Always seemed strange it couldn't access it.
- Added smokescreen keyword as presumably all Astra Militarum vehicles will get it, also, seemed weird it didn't already have smoke launchers.

Great start :-)

I think the base scions are a little too expensive. At 10&9 points (which should be the same), they have less durability than a 9 point Skitarii Ranger (4+, 6++), and less output (μ=1.0, avg 1.2 for the scions, μ=2.0, avg 1.7 vs. Intercessors). With those stats, assuming a model's cost is 50% durability, 50% output, we're looking closer to 6-7ppm. With the S5 on the HSLas, it just kills the output.

I'll take a deeper look at the Taurox Prime later. It looks priced slightly high compared to a Skorpius Dunerider (95pts, 3 Cognis Heavy Stubber, 12 transport capacity).

Command squads won't be consolidated. The game design is fundamentally built around the idea of characters being mostly untargetable behind a screen of other units, putting the Tempestor Prime in the command squad essentially renders them worthless, and by extension make Tempestus/Guard even more unplayable than they already are.

The Command Rod needs to be redone entirely. Makes zero sense that a senior officer of the elite branch of the infantry is incapable of issuing orders to their troops unless they are holding a stick in their hands. Either the command rod should offer an additional buff or ability or it should just be standard kit (i.e. native order issuing ability) and the Prime should be able to take additional weapons on top of it, instead of losing a weapon to get an ability that platoon commanders and company commanders get for free. Personally, I like the idea of the command rod becoming a (fancy) power maul, but that might just be me.

IMO medipacks, voxcasters, and platoon standards should also be standard kit for the command squad, otherwise the unit just becomes an excuse to try to squeeze more special/heavy weapons into the list and serves no real purpose otherwise. Medipacks/vox/standards also need to really be buffed up and do something worthwhile and meaningful for the army, if they don't receive a significant rework then they will continue to basially never get used. Frankly, it might be worth just elmimating the command squad concept entirely and taking a page out of factions like sisters and space marines, etc. and making standard bearers, voxmen, and medics individual characters. The potential utility of the command squad is diminisehd on the basis that they are a squad and thus can be targeted freely from the other side of the table, whereas if they were characters they could hide behind other bodies.

And also, the concept of voxcasters as an extra piece of paid wargear thats more or less mandatory if you want to get hte most out of the Army's core gameplay mechanic/doctrine type ability needs to go away entirely. Either they are standard kit in each squad eligible to field one or the order ability has the effects of vox built into it (i.e. extend the range from 6" to 18" by default) and instead vox casters as a paid add-on let units receive additional orders or something else that gives players an actual value add.

Scions either need a very big points cut or a huge stat/ability buff to make them more worthwhile, as brainpsyk pointed out, there are units in other armies that basically fulfill the same close/midrange low strength high ap firepower niche for the same/lower points costs, but they do it better and are more survivable. A big problem there though is that if you drop them too low, nobody will ever take conscripts or regular guardsmen again...

Speaking of which, guardsmen and conscripts also need a points cut. Conscripts should get the same rule that tzaangors and cultists and the like have, where you can only take one unit of conscripts per unit of regular/veteran guardsmen, or something to that effect, so as to prevent abuse. This semi-kills the theme of "conscript horde", but not really because theres usually going to be a small handful that have prior combat experience or survived the previous battle and have a better idea of what they are doing than a green recruit. As it stands though, competitive armies have no problem removing 150+ drukhari wracks off the table over the course of 2 turns - wracks are considerably more killy and more resilient than guardsmen are (and likely ever will be if they want to preserve the idea of guard as an infantry horde) - if a list can remove 150 wracks in 2 turns then it can easily remove 200-250 guardsmen in the same timeframe (which is basically what you would get in a 2000 pt list at their current points cost if you skipped tanks and vehicles, etc.).

Taurox Primes (w/ gatling guns) are already one of the most points-efficient units in the game, I don't see a points reduction in their future though it would be nice. Personally I would be happy with the points staying as is but the weapons getting buffed - +1 Strength and AP for the gatling gun, +1 shot for the missile launcher, and +1 AP and flat 3 damage for the battle cannon.

I really hope they don’t do that with conscripts. It’s just stupid. Anyone who complains about hordes is just a complete Zog-wit.

Yeah, no, thats a dumb take.

The problem with conscripts isn't "people have a problem with hordes", the problem is that they are already bargain basement priced with no room to cut without completely breaking the game. As it stands, they are overcosted for what they are and can actually do, as are guardsmen and scions. All 3 require a price cut or a huge buff, especially Scions and Guardsmen, but the points spread on these units is so tight that the moment you cut the price of one you have to cut the price on the others otherwise you basically have no reason to ever take any of the other units. There isn't a lot of room to buff these units to match the points as that would devolve into absurd levels of silliness to justify it, things like every guardsmen having T4 and a 5++ or feel no pain type save or whatever (and theres almost no room to really buff things on the weapon side of the house as guard are primarily equipped with weapons that everyone else has superior variants of - lascannon vs cognis lascannon for example, which basically locks the guard versions into being inferior to whatever others can field). Even within the codex you run into problems because theres no room to really buff lasguns that wouldn't then necessitate a buff to hot-shot lasguns, which would basically just turn them into something more like a bolter). So you really only have points cuts to work with in an effort to create value in units that currently don't really have any, but with cultists at their current 5ppm cost, each 1 point reduction in cost produces a huge savings on an exponential curve.

Right now 900 points buys you 180 conscripts, but a 1 point reduction gets you 225 (i.e. +45 from current, still not really worth it), a 2 point reduction gets you 300 (+120, kinda worth it but you will potentially lose about 2/3rds of those models in a single turn against certain factions, which pushes them back into not really worth it territory), a 3 point reduction gets you 450 (+270, worth it), and a 4 point reduction gets you 900 (+720, definitely worth it) of the bastards. Stats wise, they will die in indescribably large quantities, and I suspect you're looking at a 3 point reduction minimum to bring conscripts to the point where you could field them and still expect to have enough models left after the first turn of the game for them to actually be able to accomplish anything (keeping in mind they are BS 5+ on a S3 AP0 D1 weapon and will die to a stiff breeze) . The problem with this is that you're enabling guard players to fill out a minimum troop tax in a patrol detachment for 20 points, a battalion for 60 points, and a brigade for 120 points, which is absurdly cheap to the point of being gamebreaking. Even if you are make conscripts fixed 30-man squads instead of 10-30, you're still talking 60 pts for a patrol, 180 pts for a battalion, and 360 points for a brigade - which is still game breakingly little, especially considering that you're getting 30/90/180 models out of the deal.

In short, you can't drop their points costs really, except you have to because theres really not much design space to make guardsmen *better* without buffing them to the point of equivalency to something comparable to an ork boy or another alien known for being tougher/stronger/more capable than a human, etc. which means that guardsmen also probably need a points cut, but theres nowhere for them to go that wouldn't result in them becoming *cheaper* than a conscript, and theres nowhere to really drop conscripts to that doesn't basically break the faction unless you put significant limitations on them, such as a rule that they can't fill out mandatory troop requirements or that you need to field a guardsmen/veteran guardsmen/scion squad per conscript squad so that players don't use them as a source to fill out detachments cheaply. Nothing about this stops guard players from fielding hordes, if anything the army will be even more of a horde than it is currently (six guardsmen squads at 50pts w/ no upgrades + six 30-conscript squads would come in at 600 points and translates to 240 models on the table with another 1370 points for you to spend on more infantry and tanks - is that not horde enough for you? currently that same build costs 1230 pts and 1/2 of those models probably won't make it to the second turn of a game against a top-tier competitive build).

chaos0xomega wrote:
Command squads won't be consolidated. The game design is fundamentally built around the idea of characters being mostly untargetable behind a screen of other units, putting the Tempestor Prime in the command squad essentially renders them worthless, and by extension make Tempestus/Guard even more unplayable than they already are.

How so because the other models also count as characters. Did you not read the ability section?

I'm concerned that you'd raise the cost of the Gatling Cannon Taurox - the only build even close to worth it's points (still would be better with a buff or a reduction, it's only really worth it's points as Lambdan Lions). The other options need a serious reduction. As do Valks - by a long way.

I quite like that Command Squads are seperate, although why they cost more when they don't even get the free Tempestor bonus a normal squad gets is bizarre. They should cost the same. And talking about those points - they should be an absolute maximum of 8pts.

I completely agree that Scions should have 24" range, 9" rapid fire range is very prohibitive on the drop and the pistol range is a joke - does anyone ever use it over a grenade? This increase in range combined with a drop to 8pts would make a decent difference. Also completely agree that the Tempestor should get the HSLG as well, much like vox operators did in a previous CA (the options on the sprune so the 'there isn't a GW option for it' is not a reason to prevent this).

The Tempestor Prime should definitely have a command rod + other option, I can't believe after years this still hasn't been changed in an CA. I also feel Elimination Protocols should have been included in the orders that apply to all units in 6" of the original - we are already paying a premium in points for Scions so why did we get scrimped on their order in the new changes? Oh and Commissars in a Scion detachment should auto get <militarum tempestus regiment>.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I'm concerned that you'd raise the cost of the Gatling Cannon Taurox - the only build even close to worth it's points (still would be better with a buff or a reduction, it's only really worth it's points as Lambdan Lions). The other options need a serious reduction. As do Valks - by a long way.

It's the same cost, 100 + 20 is 120, exactly the same as it costs now. Except with AP-1 in addition. Which means if LL is unchanged it's AP-2. What I did was make the other options cheaper, and thus more viable.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I quite like that Command Squads are seperate, although why they cost more when they don't even get the free Tempestor bonus a normal squad gets is bizarre. They should cost the same. And talking about those points - they should be an absolute maximum of 8pts.

The reason GW did that was because you get the maximum amount of special weapons with no tax. For 4 special weapons in a regular Scion squad you need 10 models, so 6 models of tax. Though, I can definitely drop the models in the suggested Command Squad to 9 to match the regular Scion cost now they're upgrades rather than being by themselves.

Poly Ranger wrote:
The Tempestor Prime should definitely have a command rod + other option, I can't believe after years this still hasn't been changed in an CA. I also feel Elimination Protocols should have been included in the orders that apply to all units in 6" of the original - we are already paying a premium in points for Scions so why did we get scrimped on their order in the new changes? Oh and Commissars in a Scion detachment should auto get <militarum tempestus regiment>.

EPS is actually very powerful, I can definitely see why it's limited just like MMM. If it was one of the mass orders, there'd be no point giving out things like bring it down.

EPS is very powerful, but a Scions player already pays a premium to be able to use it. Plus it only works on vehicles and MCs so Bring It Down and Take Aim still have uses.

Thing is the ability to take a special on all is a poor reason to price them higher - Command Squads are not particularly good in comparison to Normal squads for 3 reasons. 1)No free Tempest or or his LD buff. 2) No Obsec. 3) No bullet sponges. I would still have them as seperate squads though, otherwise you will get ugly crossover with Look Out Sir with the attached Prime that will make the rules particularly awkward.

I didn't see that you'd suggested -1ap to the Gatling cannon. I agree with that, it definitely needs something like that. The other weapon options need even more.

I made some slight changes:

Tempestor Prime:

Changes:
- Dropped additional Scion cost to 9. This is because the additional point tax is no longer required.
- I made the bolt pistol free, as there's no point in it being an upgrade over the hot-shot laspistol.
- I added another line to the Command Squad ability to prevent the Officer from running.

Militarum Tempestus Scions:

Changes:
- Made the bolt pistol free as above. It's not really an upgrade over the hot-shot laspistol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I would still have them as separate squads though, otherwise you will get ugly crossover with Look Out Sir with the attached Prime that will make the rules particularly awkward.

There's no issues with it as it's written. It only works on shooting attacks, LoS only applies on shooting attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

brainpsyk wrote:
I think the base scions are a little too expensive. At 10&9 points (which should be the same), they have less durability than a 9 point Skitarii Ranger (4+, 6++), and less output (μ=1.0, avg 1.2 for the scions, μ=2.0, avg 1.7 vs. Intercessors). With those stats, assuming a model's cost is 50% durability, 50% output, we're looking closer to 6-7ppm. With the S5 on the HSLas, it just kills the output.

You do have to consider the range increase, which isn't inconsequential. It means Scion Squads can deepstrike in RF range, and with Tempestors getting HSLG's now that's 40 attacks with FRFSRF. With no other buffs that kills 2.9 Intercessors.

It also means the Tempestus Regiment with the +6 inch range now makes HSLG 30 inch. Which is actually rather impressive given its potential.

brainpsyk wrote:
I'll take a deeper look at the Taurox Prime later. It looks priced slightly high compared to a Skorpius Dunerider (95pts, 3 Cognis Heavy Stubber, 12 transport capacity).

I summarised the changes underneath the image. Basically drop the base cost to make the cannon a viable option, drop the missile launcher cost to make that viable, kept the gatling cost the same as it is now (120) but made it AP-1. I also gave it access to vehicle upgrades.

Sorry I hadn't seen the 'all the unit are characters' which would make it a very good upgrade. It would also stop the really squishy nature of these squads.

Iotan Dragons aren't exactly broken with the extra 6" even when dropping in FRFSRF range. I honestly think it would make a decent positive difference.

That’s all good bud.

Commissar:

Changes:
- Removed Lord Commissar as a datasheet.
- Moved Commissar from Elites to HQ.
- Modified Commissar datasheet to be inline with current Lord Commissar. Added + 1W and +1A. Removed -1Ld.
- Adjusted datasheet to match what comes in current plastic kit. Sadly no more bolter or powerfist.

Why have I done this? I’m of the impression Lord Commissar will become a character upgrade like Chapter Command. Though, for the Imperial Guard I’d probably be more appropriately be called Regimental Command. As for the Lord Commissar upgrade itself I was thinking of:

Lord Commissar: 15 Points / +1 Power Level
Abilities:
- Skilful Parry: Each time a melee attack is made against this model, subtract 1 from the hit roll.
- Exquisite Swordsman: Each time this model makes a melee attack against an enemy Character unit, you can re-roll the wound roll.
- Exemplary Character: This model has an Attacks characteristic of 5 and a Leadership characteristic of 9.

Relic:
- Emperor’s Forgiveness: Model with power sword only. This Relic replaces a power sword.
S+2 AP-3 D2

Warlord Trait:
- Follow Me To Glory!: While a friendly Astra Militarum unit is within 6" of this Warlord, you can re-roll charge rolls made for that unit.

I haven’t made a nice table for the above yet, but I think that would make Commissars and Lord Commissars more interesting.

Jarms48 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Command squads won't be consolidated. The game design is fundamentally built around the idea of characters being mostly untargetable behind a screen of other units, putting the Tempestor Prime in the command squad essentially renders them worthless, and by extension make Tempestus/Guard even more unplayable than they already are.

How so because the other models also count as characters. Did you not read the ability section?

Ah, I didn't realize there were images in your original post, they don't display on my end, I didn't see them until just now when I went to quote it.

So, you actually don't need that Command Squad rule at all (except maybe for the toughness part of it). The Look Out, Sir rule says "Models cannot target a unit that contains any character models...". Since you left the character keyword on the Prime, that would essentially confer immunity on the entire command squad (as it is, by definition, a unit which contains a character), regardless of whether or not the other models in the unit also have the character keyword.