Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So a recent faq from GW says:

‘If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which would apply a modifier to a dice roll made when making a ranged attack (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls, etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack.’

TRUKK BOYZ: while any trukk boyz unit is embarked upon a trukk, each time that trukk model makes an attack add 1 to the models hit roll.

I’m really wandering how this interacts with the trukk boyz upgrade from codex Orks and all passengers inside. So for example if I were to make a Warboss a trukk boy and have 11 lootas in the trukk with him does the modifier then apply to that unit also?

Yes, the lootas inside would get +1 to hit.

No the trukk is not under an ability that generically applies +1 to hit

The units inside would gain the modifier "each time that trukk model makes an attack add 1 to the models hit roll"

But they are not that truck model so while they have the ability they don't benefit from it.

But likely just as with the other threads the community will be split on this interpretation

 p5freak wrote:
Yes, the lootas inside would get +1 to hit.

How? The trukk only has plus one to hit when it's firing. At all other points it has no modifier.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Yes, the lootas inside would get +1 to hit.

How? The trukk only has plus one to hit when it's firing. At all other points it has no modifier.

Nos is correct.

The "TRUKK BOYZ" rule clearly states that "each time that trukk model makes an attack add 1 to the models hit roll."

If the trukk model is not making an attack, then it does not have any modifiers from the "TRUKK BOYZ" rule.

If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which would apply a modifier to a dice

each time that trukk model makes an attack add 1 to the models hit roll.

The model makeing the shot is not a trukk therefore it is not under the effect of an ability that would apply a modifier

An example of an instance a Trukk would be under the effect of a modifier is the Space Wolves Psychic power Tempest's Wrath:

Malediction: Tempest’s Wrath has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, select one enemy unit within 24" of this PSYKER. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, each time a model in that unit makes an attack, subtract 1 from that attack's hit roll.

The wording here is very close to that of Trukk Boyz:

...while any trukk boyz unit is embarked upon a trukk, each time that trukk model makes an attack add 1 to the models hit roll.

This makes the rules functional equivalent in my mind. As long as the unit of Trukk Boyz is embarked in the Trukk, it is continuously under the effect of a rule that gives it a +1 to Hit. No different from the Trukk being continuously under the effects of Tempest's Wrath until the the caster's next Psychic phase.

I therefore conclude that Trukk Boyz are more accurate when they are embarked in a Trukk since any Hit modifiers applied to the Trukk must be applied to them.

Note this is different from a highly conditional modifier like GSC Crossfire, which requires a whole bunch of circumstances be checked before you determine if there is a modifier.

Completely different but a nice example of the difference

"If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which would apply a modifier to a dice"

"select one enemy unit within 24" of this PSYKER. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, each time a model in that unit makes an attack, subtract 1 from that attack's hit roll."

Is the unit embarked an enemy unit - yes therefore the modifier applies to that unit it meets the requirements for a modifier applying to the transport

In contrast to

"while any trukk boyz unit is embarked upon a trukk, each time that trukk model makes an attack add 1 to the models hit roll."

Is the embarked unit a trukk - no therefore the requirements for a modifier applying are not in place

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Yes, the lootas inside would get +1 to hit.

How? The trukk only has plus one to hit when it's firing. At all other points it has no modifier.

Nos is correct.

The "TRUKK BOYZ" rule clearly states that "each time that trukk model makes an attack add 1 to the models hit roll."

If the trukk model is not making an attack, then it does not have any modifiers from the "TRUKK BOYZ" rule.

The FAQ doesnt say that the trukk has to get the modifier permanently. When the modifier would apply when the transport makes a ranged attack is enough, and thats what the TRUKK BOYZ rule says.

If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which would apply a modifier to a dice roll made when making a ranged attack (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls, etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack.

This shooting from an open topped transport is not only a can of worms but an entire barrel. GW should get rid of open topped entirely, or write proper rules. Unfortunately the latter will never happen.

If that is the text of the FAQ, then the +1 would apply to any embarked unit.

Seems I was misremembering what the FAQ said.

Essentially it's the same conflict as in the earlier YMDC argument on crossfire its the same principles

Entirely resting on interpretation of this line

"If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which would apply a modifier to a dice"

And what you interpret it to mean. If you read it as

If a Transport model is effected by an ability modifier you come to one conclusion it gains +1

But you can read the restrictive clause "which would apply" to alternatively mean that effects which would not normally apply do not get transferred

Therefore is it a trukk no then it would not apply is it an enemy yes then it would

I don't think there's a raw answer because it's ambiguous but therefore I go to rai and I think it'd unlikely the intention would be to buff units that wouldn't be buffed were they not in a transport

One interpretation is that such that the passenger needs to fulfill the requirements to gain that buff in the first place - if that is the case, almost all debuffs and buffs which are related to measuring ranges would cease to function, which is clearly not the intent.

The other is interpretation is that passengeres check if the transport is eligible for the modifier for the attack that is being made and if it is, they also use those modifiers for making that attack. The trukk will be under the effect of +1 to hit no matter what target you select, a hunta rig will only get +1 to hit when selecting a VEHICLE or MONSTER.
While this does have some unintuitive edge cases, it works for properly for all the basic scenarios.

Of the two RAW interpretation one clearly makes no sense, so it can be viewed as invalid.

To quote the actual rule:

9. If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which
would apply a modifier to a dice roll made when making a
ranged attack (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls,
etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model
makes a ranged attack.

Speculating on the content of publicly available rules should become a banable offense on YMDC...

You complain about speculation then speculate

That's a very skewed interpretation because if your not strawmanning the other side will argue that range is measured to the vehicle not the models inside. Noone is arguing otherwise as the transport has to be under the effect of an ability so must be in range. And is not the same thing as saying you must meet requirements such as keyword for it to have an effect.

It comes back to units inside gaining

trukk models inside gain +1 to hit as that's the requirement for " ability that would apply a modifier"

Vs

+1 to hit because its any buff the transport gets And its a trukk model so the modifier would apply to it

And noone knows without speculating because its unclear which was intended I mean you can't say it was crystal clear that gw wanted to give vehicle only buffs to infantry although that might be the outcome

U02dah4 wrote:
That's a very skewed interpretation because if your not strawmanning the other side will argue that range is measured to the vehicle not the models inside. Noone is arguing otherwise as the transport has to be under the effect of an ability so must be in range. And is not the same thing as saying you must meet requirements such as keyword for it to have an effect.

It comes back to units inside gaining

trukk models gain +1 to hit as that's the requirement for "modifier that would apply"

Vs

+1 to hit because its any buff the transport gets

And noone knows without speculating because its unclear which was intended I mean you can't say it was crystal clear that gw wanted to give vehicle only buffs to infantry although that might be the outcome

The rule specifically tells you to measure to the vehicle. I'm not what the rest of that means.

So you agree with me good

That was a response to jidmah claims that distances don't apply to one of the interpretations perhaps you should read what I responded to

U02dah4 wrote:
So you agree with me good

That was a response to jidmah claims that distances don't apply to one of the interpretations perhaps you should read what I responded to

I did, and still don't know what you said other than some sort of red herring about where distances are measured from.

What are you on about none of that was a red herring

What bit was misleading specifically? When I said noone was claiming you couldn't use buffs with distances because you couldn't measure to the models like jidmah is arguing they do?

Who asside from jidmah who is on the otherside of the debate do you think is trying to measure infinity to embarked models and then claiming their not in range?

If your going to claim my statement is misleading please explain why?

U02dah4 wrote:
You complain about speculation then speculate

That's a very skewed interpretation because if your not strawmanning the other side will argue that range is measured to the vehicle not the models inside. Noone is arguing otherwise as the transport has to be under the effect of an ability so must be in range. And is not the same thing as saying you must meet requirements such as keyword for it to have an effect.

You merely didn't understand my argument.

Your interpretation, according to RAW:
A unit in a transport cannot be affected by any rule of another model. => It can only gain a modifier to its rolls from its own rules or when the transport is affected by a modifier while you are resolving an attack.
The transport is only affected by a modifier when it selects a target for an attack that meets the range requirement for that buff/debuff (being inside an aura, outside of a certain range).
When you select the unit to shoot, the transport is not affected by that modifier since it is not making attacks.
=> Modifiers with ranges do not work.

Example A:
A unit of hellblasters is within 6" of a Ravenwing Darkshroud. A unit of intercessors is not. A kannon wagon selects to shoot the hellblasters with its supa-kannon and selects to shoot intercessors with its big shootas. While resolving the attacks for the supa-kannon the wagon is under the effect of a modifier, while resolving the attacks of the big shootas it is not.
I think we agree on this.

Example B:
A unit of hellblasters is within 6" of a Ravenwing Darkshroud. A unit of intercessors is not. The same kannon wagon (open topped) is transporting a unit of 4 lootas and 1 spanna with KMB. The passengers select to shoot the hellblasters with their deff guns and the KMB is shot at the intercessors. The darkshroud's rules cannot directly affect the lootas or spanna, because that's what the rules say.
According to your interpretation, the wagon is currently not fulfilling the condition of making an attack against a unit within 6" of the deathshroud and therefore not under the effect of a modifier.
Or you assume that the wagon is under the effect of a modifier, then the KMB would suffer from -1 to hit despite shooting the intercessors.
Either interpretation is clearly wrong.

Which leaves you with only one valid interpretation - if the wagon would be making an attack against a target instead of the passenger unit and would gain a modifier when performing that attack, the same modifier applies to the passenger's attack.

And noone knows without speculating because its unclear which was intended I mean you can't say it was crystal clear that gw wanted to give vehicle only buffs to infantry although that might be the outcome

Oh, stop getting your panties in a bunch, I wasn't referring to you. Two posts above mine people were stating that they didn't know the content of the FAQ, and I was referring to them.

RAI, it's also clearly intended that the upgrade called trukkBOYZ for the unit called BOYZ is supposed to improve the shooting of that unit while riding a trukk, not to buff the single big shoota of their ride.

 Jidmah wrote:


Which leaves you with only one valid interpretation - if the wagon would be making an attack against a target instead of the passenger unit and would gain a modifier when performing that attack, the same modifier applies to the passenger's attack.

That's pretty much what the original quote says -

If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which would apply a modifier to a dice roll made when making a ranged attack (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls, etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack

Emphasis Mine.


Edit to Add:

RAI, it's also clearly intended that the upgrade called trukkBOYZ for the unit called BOYZ is supposed to improve the shooting of that unit while riding a trukk, not to buff the single big shoota of their ride.

Taking the OP on faith - I wouldn't go that far. According to the OP this is a generic FAQ answer that applies to all transports (but only applies to those units can fire from) - ergo one to a few Guard Super Heavies, GSC Trucks, and a ton of Ork vehicles, not just Trukks and Trukkboys and the Upgrade for Trukkboyz I would assume predates the FAQ

Of course I'm also having difficulty figuring out which FAQ this is from to verify it was a word for word quote

@ jidmah no either you clearly don't understand my argument or yours is a strawman I understand yours its ridiculous

Me and everyone else are quite happy to agree that range is measured to the vehicle. It is a prerequisite for the vehicle to gain any of the buffs by being under effect of an ability and has no bearing. If your not in range of the aura it had no effect.

However just being in range is not sufficient the embarked unit must meet any other restrictions or the buff would not apply. That's the counter. Otherwise your under the effects of an ability that would not apply a modifier and so the rule does not apply

 Jidmah wrote:
Example B:
A unit of hellblasters is within 6" of a Ravenwing Darkshroud. A unit of intercessors is not. The same kannon wagon (open topped) is transporting a unit of 4 lootas and 1 spanna with KMB. The passengers select to shoot the hellblasters with their deff guns and the KMB is shot at the intercessors. The darkshroud's rules cannot directly affect the lootas or spanna, because that's what the rules say.
According to your interpretation, the wagon is currently not fulfilling the condition of making an attack against a unit within 6" of the deathshroud and therefore not under the effect of a modifier.
Or you assume that the wagon is under the effect of a modifier, then the KMB would suffer from -1 to hit despite shooting the intercessors.
Either interpretation is clearly wrong.

Which leaves you with only one valid interpretation - if the wagon would be making an attack against a target instead of the passenger unit and would gain a modifier when performing that attack, the same modifier applies to the passenger's attack.

This entire argument is faulty. Neither the Kannon Wagon nor the Lootas unit is under the effect of the Darkshroud, it is each and every shooting attack that is modified.

Icon of Old Caliban (Aura): While a friendly DARK ANGELS unit is within 6” of this model, each time a ranged attack is made against that unit, subtract 1 from that attack’s hit roll.

I think Point 9 of the Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport rules is intended to apply to such things as Psychic Powers or other abilities that target the Transport and place a modifier on all the transports attacks, not more qualified rules like say GSC Crossfire.

Trukk Boyz seems to sit right on the edge. If the Trukk Boyz are embarked, the Trukk is always under the effect of the Trukk Boyz rules. That would indicate that it is then passed back to the Trukk Boyz.

Did I say Trukk Boyz enough times in that paragraph?

U02dah4 wrote:
@ jidmah no either you clearly don't understand my argument or yours is a strawman I understand yours its ridiculous.

Me and everyone else are quite happy to agree that range is measured to the vehicle. It is a prerequisite for the vehicle to gain any of the buffs by being under effect of an ability and has no bearing. If your not in range of the aura it had no effect.

However just being in range is not sufficient the embarked unit must meet any other restrictions or the buff would not apply. That's the counter. Otherwise your under the effects of an ability that would not apply a modifier and so the rule does not apply

Nope, you didn't understand it. "It is ridiculous" is not an argument at all, but merely your inability to form one. "Me an everyone else" is a fallacy. You didn't understand that neither the wagon nor the passengers are being measured to. You didn't understand that the aura is affecting the marines, not the orks. You didn't understand that RAW passengers cannot be affected by a modifier that is not affecting their transport.

In my example the embarked unit does not fulfill the condition of making an attack against the hellblasters and thus, according to you, should be able to shoot them unhindered.

Either you are willing to argue the points, or you concede being wrong and drop from the discussion.

You are also being impolite for the sole reason of not being able to stand someone disagreeing with you. If you feel like disagreeing with you is a personal attack, I suggest quitting this forum and maybe seeking help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
This entire argument is faulty. Neither the Kannon Wagon nor the Lootas unit is under the effect of the Darkshroud, it is each and every shooting attack that is modified.

If it doesn't affect them, then why does a rule on the dark shroud's datasheet modify their hit rule? I don't think you can break it down like that without breaking other parts of the game.
While they aren't affected by the aura itself, but they are being affected by that aura's effect. Being affected by another unit's abilities would be a violation of Point 5.

However, point 9 says: "If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which
would apply a modifier to a dice roll made when making a
ranged attack".
Since the transport would be under the effect of the darkshroud's ability when making a ranged attack, that modifier also applies to loota's shooting. The only thing not clearly spelled out is that it

I think Point 9 of the Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport rules is intended to apply to such things as Psychic Powers or other abilities that target the Transport and place a modifier on all the transports attacks, not more qualified rules like say GSC Crossfire.

I'm not fully into the crossfire debate (and frankly don't care a whole lot), but it feels like a tad bit more complex due to the keyword being required to use the rule in the first place that then provides modifiers.

There is no such complexity for trukk boyz:
"While any TRUKK BOYZ units are embarked upon a TRUKK, each time that TRUKK model makes a ranged attack, add 1 to that attack’s hit roll."

Is the transport model under the effects of an ability which would apply a modifier to a dice roll made when making a ranged attack?
- Yes, there are trukk boyz embarked and it's a TRUKK (and not a battlewagon or kill rig), so it has +1 to hit.
=> the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack.

No your argument has nothing to do with the problem and you haven't made a case for it




""Me an everyone else" is a fallacy."

No it it isn't noone else has supported your position or talked about ranges it is in range or it isnt that's how ranges work



"You didn't understand that neither the wagon nor the passengers are being measured to."

"It is continuously that's how auras work it doesn't effect the vehicle as it has the wrong keyword but its measured to it"



" You didn't understand that the aura is affecting the marines, not the orks. "

Absolutely I did understand that it effects the marines not the embarked unit that's why it has no relevance to the discussion as it is a rule effecting the target not the embarked unit.




"You didn't understand that RAW passengers cannot be affected by a modifier that is not affecting their transport."

No because that's not how rules work (units effected by other rules from other sources don't lose them nothing tells you that. It's also not relevant to the embarked rules, as it doesn't interact with them in any unusual way as you say the transports not effected by the aura so it's not relevant




You've just picked a very complex way of saying if I shoot at a target with -1 to hit either I should be able to ignore that for no reason or I'm right and everything works my way and theirs no other way of seeing it (fallacy as their are two interpretations on this thread and youve not addressed them). Stateing that we don't understand your position is also wrong we do but your argument isn't clever or relevant its ridiculous.

The -1 to hit effects for the same reason it effects any other unit that shoots. because the rules say so and you have no reason to ignore them

"I'm right and you are wrong. Source: because I say so."

Yeah, as you are clearly not interested in backing up anything you write (which is a violation of the YMDC tenets), there nothing I can respond to that. Your post ist completely devoid of arguments.

There is no point in discussing rules with you, so I will just consider everything you wrote to be an uninformed opinion that is not actually influenced by what is written in the rules.

1) So top paragraph not an argument

2) Second paragraph anyone can see i have backed up every point in detail

3)third paragraph well done - you can't win the argument so in true dunning kruger style you will just ignore all the points against it - the obvious sign of a winning position

U02dah4 wrote:
You've just picked a very complex way of saying if I shoot at a target with -1 to hit either I should be able to ignore that for no reason or I'm right and everything works my way and theirs no other way of seeing it (fallacy as their are two interpretations on this thread and youve not addressed them). Stateing that we dont understand your position is also wrong we do but your argument isn't clever ir relevant its ridiculous.

The -1 to hit effects for same reason it effects any other unit that shoots because the rules say so and effect the target and you have no reason to ignore them

And no, this is not what I said. I applied your logic to an example to prove it wrong. That's how logic works - a single counter-example is sufficient to prove a hypothesis wrong.

Except your counter example doesn't address my logic. As it doesn't address the requirements for either hypothesis so proves neither wrong as neither apply in your example.

The embarked rules have no impact unless the transport is effected by a rule and its not in your example

You might aswell have provided an example of how advancing works as that's equally unrelated

The disagreement everyone else is having is whether "would apply" refers to would apply to the transport after being measured to the transport or "would apply" to the embarked unit after being measured to the transport.

In your example both interpretations have the same answer -1 to hit because the transport isn't effected the target is and you have no reason to ignore it. So the hypotheses are not differentiated

You have created an unrelated argument and defeated it easily and the claimed victory that is a strawman.

Even if it was an aura that said enemy units within 6" get -1 to hit and it was in range of the transport it would still not differentiate as under both interpretations it would apply to the vehicle and embarked unit

FWIW I agree that Trukk Boyz do gain the +1 to Hit from the Trukk Boyz rule due to the Trukk gaining the +1 to hit while they are embarked.

I suspect it is an unintended rules interaction, but rather clear.

FWIW I see both interpretations. its probably an unintended rules interaction. ergo roll off or ask your TO as appropriate till GW faq it

However it would seem more likely that gw intended vehicle only buffs to buff vehicles and not the embarked unit.

U02dah4 wrote:



""Me an everyone else" is a fallacy."

No it it isn't noone else has supported your position or talked about ranges it is in range or it isnt that's how ranges work

Also: What FAQ did this come from? This seems pretty generalist but I Can't find it in the Core Rules FAQ, or any of the Summer Campaign etc books but I may have missed it.