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 ClockworkZion wrote:
So GSC and Custodes FAQs dropped an hour ago. Does anyone think any of this helps anything?

GSC: https://warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/HcRU2JKXHoXqrGzd.pdf

Custodes: https://warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/osTrVtUQdSidgXpR.pdf

Unfortunately, no. GSC aren't really a problem it seems and the Custodes FAQ is just wording corrections.

It just feels like we've hit the clownfiesta stage of the edition where they throw out whatever because there's going to be something of a reset and therefore it doesn't matter. Although I guess you could argue that started with DE a year ago.

Its impossible to believe these books were playtested - and if they were (with some claiming the Custodes points drops were on the back of playtesters saying they were weak) it raises questions about that process.

Its a shame really because I quite like 9th's base rules, and I think if every codex had been sort of comparable with the Necron book on release it could have been a nice edition. But GW can't seem to stop themselves. And my worry is that the playtesters are now cheering them on.

Its a meme at this point - but if Eldar are the Daemons in 7th edition WHFB codex, I really wouldn't be surprised. Although I've only looked at the abilities rather than seen any points - so things could all be overcosted. But I wouldn't bet on it.

Tyel wrote:
It just feels like we've hit the clownfiesta stage of the edition where they throw out whatever because there's going to be something of a reset and therefore it doesn't matter. Although I guess you could argue that started with DE a year ago.

Its impossible to believe these books were playtested - and if they were (with some claiming the Custodes points drops were on the back of playtesters saying they were weak) it raises questions about that process.

Its a shame really because I quite like 9th's base rules, and I think if every codex had been sort of comparable with the Necron book on release it could have been a nice edition. But GW can't seem to stop themselves. And my worry is that the playtesters are now cheering them on.

Its a meme at this point - but if Eldar are the Daemons in 7th edition WHFB codex, I really wouldn't be surprised. Although I've only looked at the abilities rather than seen any points - so things could all be overcosted. But I wouldn't bet on it.

It may not be surprising based on my flair, but I'm not ready to assert that we've hit the cascading point of no return in terms of new book power level. Yes, Custodes and Tau are pretty busted right now, but Daedalus is right, a few targeted nerfs may be all we need to rein them in (or not, as the case may be; people said that about Dark Eldar also...). But GSC seems strong without being too strong, and the Eldar leaks have had lots more restrictions than we were expecting at first. Yes, it'll still be pretty easy to run lots of Bright Lances, but a lot of the other boogeymen (JSJ via Battle Focus, crazy unkillable Wraiths, OP mobs of Aspect Warriors) either don't seem to be there (Battle Focus looks a little eh to me honestly! Besides for things like Warp Spiders) or are shut down by unit size restrictions and one-per-game Exarch powers (think Dark Reapers, Shining Spears). Plus, like you said, points are still a knob that is twiddle-able. Anyway, this could all be atomic-grade cope but I am optimistic Eldar won't be nuts.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

as far as when that was, 8th edition index was in my opinion about as balanced as it has been ever, but even then there were some factions that were ahead/behind, just much better than say now.

Those were a good few months! I had high hopes going into 8th edition.

It was ruined as soon as codexes were released though; proving that GW would not balance their game even if given the opportunity.
It became clear to me then that GW had no intention of making a good game, it's just a reason to buy their miniatures that can be manipulated for profit.

If you don't like it don't support them.

I have to wonder if they could fix Custodoes by just rescinding the unit cost correction PDF and going with the Codex unit cost?

 alextroy wrote:
I have to wonder if they could fix Custodoes by just rescinding the unit cost correction PDF and going with the Codex unit cost?

Honestly? Probably not unless they have a lot of bikes. Trajann went down 10 and bikes went down 5. You might push a model or two out of the list.

The other end of it is transhuman and turning off rerolls for 1CP among some other things. I don't have enough experience against the new book to elaborate further though so I welcome other points of view.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Tyel wrote:
It just feels like we've hit the clownfiesta stage of the edition where they throw out whatever because there's going to be something of a reset and therefore it doesn't matter. Although I guess you could argue that started with DE a year ago.

Its impossible to believe these books were playtested - and if they were (with some claiming the Custodes points drops were on the back of playtesters saying they were weak) it raises questions about that process.

Its a shame really because I quite like 9th's base rules, and I think if every codex had been sort of comparable with the Necron book on release it could have been a nice edition. But GW can't seem to stop themselves. And my worry is that the playtesters are now cheering them on.

Its a meme at this point - but if Eldar are the Daemons in 7th edition WHFB codex, I really wouldn't be surprised. Although I've only looked at the abilities rather than seen any points - so things could all be overcosted. But I wouldn't bet on it.

It may not be surprising based on my flair, but I'm not ready to assert that we've hit the cascading point of no return in terms of new book power level. Yes, Custodes and Tau are pretty busted right now, but Daedalus is right, a few targeted nerfs may be all we need to rein them in (or not, as the case may be; people said that about Dark Eldar also...). But GSC seems strong without being too strong, and the Eldar leaks have had lots more restrictions than we were expecting at first. Yes, it'll still be pretty easy to run lots of Bright Lances, but a lot of the other boogeymen (JSJ via Battle Focus, crazy unkillable Wraiths, OP mobs of Aspect Warriors) either don't seem to be there (Battle Focus looks a little eh to me honestly! Besides for things like Warp Spiders) or are shut down by unit size restrictions and one-per-game Exarch powers (think Dark Reapers, Shining Spears). Plus, like you said, points are still a knob that is twiddle-able. Anyway, this could all be atomic-grade cope but I am optimistic Eldar won't be nuts.

Okay so you nerf Custodes and they're no longer busted. Then the Tyranids book comes out and THEY'RE busted. So they get nerfed. Then the Guard codex comes out and THAT is busted. And round and round it goes forever and ever until the players get sick of it, leave and then GW goes "11th Ed is the MOST PLAYTESTED EDITION EVER FOR REAL THIS TIME (buy these 2 €59 books and subscribe to the monthly payment app and thess bi-annual rules updates and 4 supplements to find out how!" and everyone comes running back and the cycle starts over again.

Daedalus's letter would probably be better if it included a withdrawal of financial support, rather than just asking politely. Money is the only thing GW cares about after all.

 alextroy wrote:
I have to wonder if they could fix Custodoes by just rescinding the unit cost correction PDF and going with the Codex unit cost?

Wouldn't be enough IMO. I think they need bigger points rises than that and there's still a problem of many strats being very low cost for what they do. The EC Shieldhost is also clearly the best, which needs looking at.

These are the win rates against them for this past weekend to show who is capable of beating them.

Sisters and Eldar seem to be able to take on Tau.

Do note I only have one week of data here so I wouldn't draw any hard conclusions. The past two weeks combined favors Custodes a lot more so people have made some headway learning to fight them. Last weekend Tau also lost handily to Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh, and CW. CK have a 44% while IK have 19% against them.

what do you do?
Wait 3 months for GW to put out an FAQ that nerfs them and taunts the next overpowered army to buy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I have to wonder if they could fix Custodoes by just rescinding the unit cost correction PDF and going with the Codex unit cost?

Honestly? Probably not unless they have a lot of bikes. Trajann went down 10 and bikes went down 5. You might push a model or two out of the list.

The other end of it is transhuman and turning off rerolls for 1CP among some other things. I don't have enough experience against the new book to elaborate further though so I welcome other points of view.

Yeah, Trajann needs to go up quite a bit, and probably the bikes.

It's really the strats that need to go up though, that's where a significant amount of the power is. The EC and at least one, if not both, of the defensive strats need to go up to 2 CP. Or at least make the Defensive strats 2 CP for Bikes all the time.

I don't think there needs to be a ton of points updates across the board. Start with the major offenders like Trajann and the strats, and go from there. We don't need to dumpster the army outright. With such a small model count, it'd be very easy to go too far.

Tau on the other hand, I have no idea. They feel more like Ad Mech or DE where if you nerf one thing, another is going to pop up.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Okay so you nerf Custodes and they're no longer busted. Then the Tyranids book comes out and THEY'RE busted. So they get nerfed. Then the Guard codex comes out and THAT is busted. And round and round it goes forever and ever until the players get sick of it, leave and then GW goes "11th Ed is the MOST PLAYTESTED EDITION EVER FOR REAL THIS TIME

There is the potential for other books to restart the clock. There isn't much we can do about that - they're in the pipeline and affected by whatever mismanaged process they were made, but not every book is nuts.

The difference now is we have outlets with 6 month points and 3 month slates, but those are insufficient to deal with these immediate problems.

I'll be continuing to apply pressure weekly. Each successive week without communication or change I'll ramp up my position.

GW tried their best at killing my interest in the game with the last "balance update" to Death Guard. At this point I just don't know what crazy plan they are following.

 Eldarsif wrote:
GW tried their best at killing my interest in the game with the last "balance update" to Death Guard. At this point I just don't know what crazy plan they are following.

i heard they're gonna hotfix necrons and increase their cost, they really overdid it with the last buffs to them



/s

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
GW tried their best at killing my interest in the game with the last "balance update" to Death Guard. At this point I just don't know what crazy plan they are following.

i heard they're gonna hotfix necrons and increase their cost, they really overdid it with the last buffs to them
/s

On a more serious note Necrons hit 52% WR on 141 games. Without the abyssmal performance against Custodes and Tau they'd be real contenders for a strong army ( over half their games were against these two ).

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Okay so you nerf Custodes and they're no longer busted. Then the Tyranids book comes out and THEY'RE busted. So they get nerfed. Then the Guard codex comes out and THAT is busted. And round and round it goes forever and ever until the players get sick of it, leave and then GW goes "11th Ed is the MOST PLAYTESTED EDITION EVER FOR REAL THIS TIME

There is the potential for other books to restart the clock. There isn't much we can do about that - they're in the pipeline and affected by whatever mismanaged process they were made, but not every book is nuts.

The difference now is we have outlets with 6 month points and 3 month slates, but those are insufficient to deal with these immediate problems.

I'll be continuing to apply pressure weekly. Each successive week without communication or change I'll ramp up my position.

If only you had ‘ramped up’ your position for the last year of admech and drukhari, maybe I would think this was something more than a specific army reaction.

The scuttlebutt is that Custodes were playtested vs the new Eldar so the playtesters' feedback (ie that Custodes needed to be cheaper) is based on that level of "power".
And Eldar are dropping in 4 days time

 Aenar wrote:
The scuttlebutt is that Custodes were playtested vs the new Eldar so the playtesters' feedback (ie that Custodes needed to be cheaper) is based on that level of "power".
And Eldar are dropping in 4 days time

They got a subfaction with FOUR traits. I hate this rules team.

 Aenar wrote:
The scuttlebutt is that Custodes were playtested vs the new Eldar so the playtesters' feedback (ie that Custodes needed to be cheaper) is based on that level of "power".
And Eldar are dropping in 4 days time

books are not only play tested against one army. its not like custodes vs only the new eldar book. unfortunately most of the playtesting is farmed out to volunteers from the tournament community so you often see codexes getting adjustments based on what the current tournament winning armies are. so custodes was built facing dark eldar, admech, freeboota orks and a few other builds mostly

Question about your Custodes data, Daed - how're the Custodes managing to win 52% of games... against the Custodes?

Have you tried unplugging it and plugging it back in?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Don't put words in my mouth.

I'm not, dude, it's gak *you* said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:
GW tried their best at killing my interest in the game with the last "balance update" to Death Guard. At this point I just don't know what crazy plan they are following.

The point was to fix the faction's internal balance (at the expense of external balance) to sell more things in the line.

I have a decent chunk of DA models that I could repair and paint, but I just can't imagine myself ever coming back to 40k at this stage. I came back to these forums around 8th after playing a few casual games with the new system. I followed the change to 9th and the tournament scene, but I just can't see how this game as it stands is enjoyable.

It feels like it's time to sell the models as a lot and jump ship to Battletech.

Tyel wrote:
It just feels like we've hit the clownfiesta stage of the edition where they throw out whatever because there's going to be something of a reset and therefore it doesn't matter. Although I guess you could argue that started with DE a year ago.

Its impossible to believe these books were playtested - and if they were (with some claiming the Custodes points drops were on the back of playtesters saying they were weak) it raises questions about that process.

Its a shame really because I quite like 9th's base rules, and I think if every codex had been sort of comparable with the Necron book on release it could have been a nice edition. But GW can't seem to stop themselves. And my worry is that the playtesters are now cheering them on.

Its a meme at this point - but if Eldar are the Daemons in 7th edition WHFB codex, I really wouldn't be surprised. Although I've only looked at the abilities rather than seen any points - so things could all be overcosted. But I wouldn't bet on it.

Again, I reiterate my point that books coming out now would be products of GW working remote from Covid. We're seeing the least playtested and most poorly coordinated books coming out now.

It feels like it's time to sell the models as a lot and jump ship to Battletech.

I moved across country last year and did just that. I had a fire sale. Some of the stuff I couldn't even GIVE away so I threw it in the dumpster.

As a long time Battletech player, my time has been much more enjoyable but I feel that is because there is no massive tournament scene over there and players aren't stuck to some meta and tournament standard so the games are all different and enjoyable for someone like me.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tyel wrote:
It just feels like we've hit the clownfiesta stage of the edition where they throw out whatever because there's going to be something of a reset and therefore it doesn't matter. Although I guess you could argue that started with DE a year ago.

Its impossible to believe these books were playtested - and if they were (with some claiming the Custodes points drops were on the back of playtesters saying they were weak) it raises questions about that process.

Its a shame really because I quite like 9th's base rules, and I think if every codex had been sort of comparable with the Necron book on release it could have been a nice edition. But GW can't seem to stop themselves. And my worry is that the playtesters are now cheering them on.

Its a meme at this point - but if Eldar are the Daemons in 7th edition WHFB codex, I really wouldn't be surprised. Although I've only looked at the abilities rather than seen any points - so things could all be overcosted. But I wouldn't bet on it.

Again, I reiterate my point that books coming out now would be products of GW working remote from Covid. We're seeing the least playtested and most poorly coordinated books coming out now.

Your point would have merit if we hadn't seen this nonsense every single edition for the companies lifespan. I can not blame COVID when GW has been able to screw everything up without outside influence for the past 30+ years. Plus, their play testing team is probably a small group of the same people that have tested all the other codexs to date and I would hazard a guess that they didn't stop play testing (AKA setting up ridiculous White Dwarf batreps,) during lock downs. Why is it so hard to admit for the 30+ years of evidence that GW just doesn't care about making the game fun or playable as long as they sell their "premium" product?

Well.. once again we realise that all books for factions and their rules should've been released at the START of a edition in order to finetune it. ALAS that would mean no more new shiny release book, etc.

Also yikes those numbers , sooooo many tau and bannanas.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
It may not be surprising based on my flair, but I'm not ready to assert that we've hit the cascading point of no return in terms of new book power level. Yes, Custodes and Tau are pretty busted right now, but Daedalus is right, a few targeted nerfs may be all we need to rein them in (or not, as the case may be; people said that about Dark Eldar also...). But GSC seems strong without being too strong, and the Eldar leaks have had lots more restrictions than we were expecting at first. Yes, it'll still be pretty easy to run lots of Bright Lances, but a lot of the other boogeymen (JSJ via Battle Focus, crazy unkillable Wraiths, OP mobs of Aspect Warriors) either don't seem to be there (Battle Focus looks a little eh to me honestly! Besides for things like Warp Spiders) or are shut down by unit size restrictions and one-per-game Exarch powers (think Dark Reapers, Shining Spears). Plus, like you said, points are still a knob that is twiddle-able. Anyway, this could all be atomic-grade cope but I am optimistic Eldar won't be nuts.

I've seen a few people saying "don't worry they can fix this with points adjustments", which is a technically true statement. Unfortunately, "they won't fix this with points adjustments because of the way they do the points adjustments" is also true.

If they are putting out a physical points book every six months, the next set of points for the book most likely will have already been set in stone and sent to the publisher shortly after the last book released (maybe even before). They will probably nerf Dark Eldar and Grey Knights (who were on top before Custodes and Tau came out) while throwing out some buffs to Eldar and Tyranids "based on playtesting feedback" despite those books probably dominating the meta in the months leading up the physical release of the book.

Also, in two chapter approveds so far we've seen very little "buff up the bad actions with better points" action. Necrons finally have had a partial points buff (some units are now probably too good, while others were ignored) but Space Marines were largely untouched while Death Guard got the full clownfiesta flying circus treatment of nerfs rather than buffs to a woeful faction. By the time the next chapter approved is due out several 9th edition factions out of Sisters, Ad Mech, Orks, TSons, Grey Knights will be in the same position as Death Guard were last month and will be in need of points buffs.

From the sounds of it GSC seem quite powerful into other 9th edition codexes excluding Custodes and Tau. They can murder Death Guard, Sisters, Space Marines, AdMech etc. I've not had a chance into them with TSons yet but suspect they will be able to cleanly trade up with overwatch denial and fight last into two units per turn and can probably do the same into GK. Orks maybe with the shooting they have might have a chance? They seem very strong into anyone who wants to hit them in combat.

This remote working excuse seems a bit fishy to me. Do they chisel all the rules in stone tablets at the Nottingham HQ or are they stored digitally do you think?

Does nobody here remember the Leafblower armies? Or how Eldar used to be pre 8th? Nothing in this edition so far comes close to that broken, at least now there are several armies that can compete with each other.

Not an excuse really for GWs very bad rules writing, but honestly this chicken little stuff about Custodes and Tau is ridic.

caladancid wrote:
Does nobody here remember the Leafblower armies? Or how Eldar used to be pre 8th? Nothing in this edition so far comes close to that broken, at least now there are several armies that can compete with each other.

Not an excuse really for GWs very bad rules writing, but honestly this chicken little stuff about Custodes and Tau is ridic.

by several you mean the clear powerspikes provided by adeptus mechanicus and drukhari which only now got overtaken by custards and Tau? Which seem to have gotten Quite the population for their new iterations ?
There are quite a few dexes out there that can probably spike this even more.