Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Of course they are overpowered - they sell well. When they stop selling well / the initial spike in purchases is over, they will get nerfed for the next big hotness.

Imperial Guard doesn't sell as well, so it'll be a little bit "meh" claiming they have listened to the community, before they then release Space Marines v2 to super-buff them to remind people to buy them.

Sumilidon wrote:
Of course they are overpowered - they sell well. When they stop selling well / the initial spike in purchases is over, they will get nerfed for the next big hotness.

Imperial Guard doesn't sell as well, so it'll be a little bit "meh" claiming they have listened to the community, before they then release Space Marines v2 to super-buff them to remind people to buy them.

Right, that's why GSC are also just killing it? Or why Thousand Sons dominated and then got heavily nerfed?

I'm just glad they finally put Death Guard in their place!

Posit a specific scenario, then. I can run the numbers.

Edit: this was at Breton.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Sumilidon wrote:
Of course they are overpowered - they sell well. When they stop selling well / the initial spike in purchases is over, they will get nerfed for the next big hotness.

Imperial Guard doesn't sell as well, so it'll be a little bit "meh" claiming they have listened to the community, before they then release Space Marines v2 to super-buff them to remind people to buy them.

Right, that's why GSC are also just killing it? Or why Thousand Sons dominated and then got heavily nerfed?

I'm just glad they finally put Death Guard in their place!

In the top tables with the best players yeah, they are doing great. The OP however has much more concern however on accessibility to such an overpowered army (notably Custodes) which filters down to the local club level. From my experience, GSC on a club level suck.

Also remember that those armies are doing really well following a supplement that people theoretically need to buy to get the rules to make them awesome....

Shoot a Custodian Guard squad with Transhuman up with a lascannon and an MM.

Sumilidon wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Sumilidon wrote:
Of course they are overpowered - they sell well. When they stop selling well / the initial spike in purchases is over, they will get nerfed for the next big hotness.

Imperial Guard doesn't sell as well, so it'll be a little bit "meh" claiming they have listened to the community, before they then release Space Marines v2 to super-buff them to remind people to buy them.

Right, that's why GSC are also just killing it? Or why Thousand Sons dominated and then got heavily nerfed?

I'm just glad they finally put Death Guard in their place!

In the top tables with the best players yeah, they are doing great. The OP however has much more concern however on accessibility to such an overpowered army (notably Custodes) which filters down to the local club level. From my experience, GSC on a club level suck.

Also remember that those armies are doing really well following a supplement that people theoretically need to buy to get the rules to make them awesome....

Speed Freaks isn't catapulting Orks. Neither is anything for the Sisters. Phobos army says what? DE supplement didn't make or break that army. AdMech and had the only supplement that truly amps them barring Nids, which is interacting with an old codex that has double shoot - a mechanic that is going away.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Shoot a Custodian Guard squad with Transhuman up with a lascannon and an MM.

Is this assuming a D3+3 LC? Because otherwise it's no contest unless the range is 25"+.

Tyel wrote:
Shoot a Custodian Guard squad with Transhuman up with a lascannon and an MM.

That’s two shots, hitting on a 3+ (probably), wounding on a 4+, saving on a 4+, for d6 or d+2 damage. As opposed by one identical shot, except it only ever gets d6 damage.

That’s not worth mathing out-two shots is better than one shot when the shots are identical.

GH is up with a roundtable with some good suggestions.

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-roundtable-fixing-tau-and-custodes/

Sorry yes - I meant an Ad Mech Lascannon.
Should have just said a Bright Lance.

Oh boy, one of them suggested nerfing Crisis Suits by doing the "what's in the box" loadout. I'm shocked he doesn't work for GW already!

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Oh boy, one of them suggested nerfing Crisis Suits by doing the "what's in the box" loadout. I'm shocked he doesn't work for GW already!

There's some over the top as well as some very silly suggestions.

I do like this one:

Add “When firing at models not within line of sight, attacks made with this weapon are always made at -1 to the hit roll, cannot receive positive modifiers of any kind, and hit, wound, and damage rolls cannot be re-rolled” to all weapons which are eligible to fire at targets not in line of sight

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Sorry yes - I meant an Ad Mech Lascannon.
Should have just said a Bright Lance.

I presume you mean a single cognis LC otherwise it goes way in the other direction.

Such a LC can kill a Custodes 15.4% of the time ( 26.7% if a twin ). MM at range is 17.8% and 25.8 in half.

yeah, nerfing non-LoS is sorely needed to future proof the edition.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
GH is up with a roundtable with some good suggestions.

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-roundtable-fixing-tau-and-custodes/

I think they are a little harsh on custodes myself. I think there is a bit of an underestimation on how the nerfs will affect the whole army. It's not an ad mech/DE situation that huge depth of stuff to pull from.

That being said, they clearly need some nerfs. Trajan, Bikes and some of the stratagems need to go up for sure. I think just making the defensive stratagems cost 2 by default for non-infantry units is the right way to price them. but +15 for Salvo Launchers or making them D6 just seems overboard.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
yeah, nerfing non-LoS is sorely needed to future proof the edition.

So much crap has stemmed from those weapons. It's dumb that they're priced like regular guns, but suffer no drawbacks. And you can't just jack the points up to make them glass cannon. We definitely need a rule to deal with them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Oh boy, one of them suggested nerfing Crisis Suits by doing the "what's in the box" loadout. I'm shocked he doesn't work for GW already!

There's some over the top as well as some very silly suggestions.

I do like this one:

Add “When firing at models not within line of sight, attacks made with this weapon are always made at -1 to the hit roll, cannot receive positive modifiers of any kind, and hit, wound, and damage rolls cannot be re-rolled” to all weapons which are eligible to fire at targets not in line of sight

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Sorry yes - I meant an Ad Mech Lascannon.
Should have just said a Bright Lance.

I presume you mean a single cognis LC otherwise it goes way in the other direction.

Such a LC can kill a Custodes 15.4% of the time ( 26.7% if a twin ). MM at range is 17.8% and 25.8 in half.

Yeah I think a simple "Take a -1 to hit" would've sufficed.

Its an interesting discussion.

Really, what you choose to do reflects whether your thinking is "okay, 70%+ win rates against non-Custodes/Tau is a bit much, lets try and keep them still the best faction, but only with say a 60%~ win rate"...
Or "these two factions both need to be brought down to earth with massive cuts so they are not obviously better than say Death Guard".

The first proposal is probably closest to what I'd do day 1 - and what I expect GW to do. But as the weeks go past, I'm increasingly minded that its too soft. It will just produce a DE style scenario where Custodes and Tau remain the top factions until some new tier of overpoweredness shows up.

Its this statement:

Glancing down the page at what others have written, I think the things I’d specifically try and avoid doing are hitting Auspice and Alchemy at the same time (for the reasons outlined above) and taking CORE off Broadsides (because I think they become irrelevant and outmoded outside maybe Tau Sept if you do).

that I think hits the divide. To my mind you can only say taking CORE from Broadsides would make them "irrelevent", if "relevancy" is "regularly featuring in GT winning lists due to being quite blatantly overpushed". Which feels like a rather ludicrous bar for balance - and can only get that "hey, we nerfed them a 65% win rate, why aren't you happy?" result.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
yeah, nerfing non-LoS is sorely needed to future proof the edition.

Why would you need to future proof the edition? It'll just go away summer of '23/summer '24 & everything will reset.

ccs wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
yeah, nerfing non-LoS is sorely needed to future proof the edition.

Why would you need to future proof the edition? It'll just go away summer of '23/summer '24 & everything will reset.

ok i'll spell it out : We need to reign in non-LoS before the guard codex comes out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


So much crap has stemmed from those weapons. It's dumb that they're priced like regular guns, but suffer no drawbacks. And you can't just jack the points up to make them glass cannon. We definitely need a rule to deal with them.

yeah, its the same reason why flyers got a blanket nerf, anything that makes terrain irrelevant is a mistake IMO (heck, i'd remove the breachable keyword too)

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

ccs wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
yeah, nerfing non-LoS is sorely needed to future proof the edition.

Why would you need to future proof the edition? It'll just go away summer of '23/summer '24 & everything will reset.

ok i'll spell it out : We need to reign in non-LoS before the guard codex comes out.

Ah, I see. You're trying to deny the Guard players one of the strengths of their faction.
This is nothing but the mewling cry of the bad player. Whatever the strength of a faction (except yours of course)? Nerf it into the ground!

ccs wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

ccs wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
yeah, nerfing non-LoS is sorely needed to future proof the edition.

Why would you need to future proof the edition? It'll just go away summer of '23/summer '24 & everything will reset.

ok i'll spell it out : We need to reign in non-LoS before the guard codex comes out.

Ah, I see. You're trying to deny the Guard players one of the strengths of their faction.
This is nothing but the mewling cry of the bad player. Whatever the strength of a faction (except yours of course)? Nerf it into the ground!

sure, i'm a bad player because i recognize that in a game as lethal as 40k, removing the main interaction i can have with my opponent (terrain) from the equation is problematic.

guard can still be a good mortar faction by having access to more mortars than other faction.

And no, i've called out bs stuff even if they are in my factions or not.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Oh boy, one of them suggested nerfing Crisis Suits by doing the "what's in the box" loadout. I'm shocked he doesn't work for GW already!

It'd only be fair.

Hecaton wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Oh boy, one of them suggested nerfing Crisis Suits by doing the "what's in the box" loadout. I'm shocked he doesn't work for GW already!

It'd only be fair.

yeah, as much as i dislike the rule, i dislike it not being applied equally to every faction.

but in an ideal world, i'd let people put whatever they want on their squads

ccs wrote:

This is nothing but the mewling cry of the bad player. Whatever the strength of a faction (except yours of course)? Nerf it into the ground!

Nah. Winning against better players because your codex is overpowered is not something Tau (or IG players) are entitled to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


yeah, as much as i dislike the rule, i dislike it not being applied equally to every faction.

but in an ideal world, i'd let people put whatever they want on their squads

Yes, although the Plague Marine datasheet is ridiculous and has gone too far.

Either everyone should be restricted to what's in the box or no one should.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
(heck, i'd remove the breachable keyword too)

Hmm...well...maybe? I think the double edged sword there is that you suddenly make stuff with FLY the best units in the game.

I don't think its an issue if every codex has some limited - and relatively overcosted on planet bowling ball - ignore LOS options.

Its the counter to "I'm going to hide behind cover until you come out and then I can run round the corner and get my shooting phase off first". Which should in turn be sort of countered by "my stuff has M16" and just shoots across the table to do whatever it likes".

Its points values that are the problem.

Hecaton wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


yeah, as much as i dislike the rule, i dislike it not being applied equally to every faction.

but in an ideal world, i'd let people put whatever they want on their squads

Yes, although the Plague Marine datasheet is ridiculous and has gone too far.

Either everyone should be restricted to what's in the box or no one should.

Bold to assume they'd go with the latter. Best not speak of the idea out loud.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
(heck, i'd remove the breachable keyword too)

Hmm...well...maybe? I think the double edged sword there is that you suddenly make stuff with FLY the best units in the game.

i mean, fly *should* give an advantage over being on foot

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
(heck, i'd remove the breachable keyword too)

Hmm...well...maybe? I think the double edged sword there is that you suddenly make stuff with FLY the best units in the game.

i mean, fly *should* give an advantage over being on foot

Yea, but you know how it goes - only units with FLY will get used and anything without it suffers.

I don't want to discount the possibility as I am only speculating, however, the slow units at the point become really slow. Terminators don't get anywhere. Harlequins would walk circles around people just jumping over cover when you get too close.

Feels a lot like older editions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
I don't think its an issue if every codex has some limited - and relatively overcosted on planet bowling ball - ignore LOS options.

Its the counter to "I'm going to hide behind cover until you come out and then I can run round the corner and get my shooting phase off first". Which should in turn be sort of countered by "my stuff has M16" and just shoots across the table to do whatever it likes".

Its points values that are the problem.

I don't agree that points can solve this. You have units that ignore LOS from soft infantry all the way to tanks. If two armies square off with glass cannon level no LOS shooting then the person that either goes first or has the more durable platform will get the edge.

Giving no LOS shooting a penalty that goes away when they can spot the target rewards movement and gives choice between focusing on something more important that isn't in LOS.

Battlefield choices are so much better, in my opinion.

Sumilidon wrote:
Of course they are overpowered - they sell well. When they stop selling well / the initial spike in purchases is over, they will get nerfed for the next big hotness.

Imperial Guard doesn't sell as well, so it'll be a little bit "meh" claiming they have listened to the community, before they then release Space Marines v2 to super-buff them to remind people to buy them.

This is the single dumbest recurring myth in 40k.

I WISH GW was competent enough to push rules for strong sellers. At least then the system would make sense.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
yeah, nerfing non-LoS is sorely needed to future proof the edition.

So much crap has stemmed from those weapons. It's dumb that they're priced like regular guns, but suffer no drawbacks. And you can't just jack the points up to make them glass cannon. We definitely need a rule to deal with them.

Also, I don't care HOW thematic it is: No weapon should EVER ignore both LoS AND cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sumilidon wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Sumilidon wrote:
Of course they are overpowered - they sell well. When they stop selling well / the initial spike in purchases is over, they will get nerfed for the next big hotness.

Imperial Guard doesn't sell as well, so it'll be a little bit "meh" claiming they have listened to the community, before they then release Space Marines v2 to super-buff them to remind people to buy them.

Right, that's why GSC are also just killing it? Or why Thousand Sons dominated and then got heavily nerfed?

I'm just glad they finally put Death Guard in their place!

In the top tables with the best players yeah, they are doing great. The OP however has much more concern however on accessibility to such an overpowered army (notably Custodes) which filters down to the local club level. From my experience, GSC on a club level suck.

Also remember that those armies are doing really well following a supplement that people theoretically need to buy to get the rules to make them awesome....

Space marines have historically sold better than any TWO other factions. Anecdotal evidence has suggested that in some cases they sold better than ALL the rest of 40k combined. And yet, they're by and large terrible. ESPECIALLY their fancy new primaris kits.

Such an easy theory to disprove.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I don't want to discount the possibility as I am only speculating, however, the slow units at the point become really slow. Terminators don't get anywhere. Harlequins would walk circles around people just jumping over cover when you get too close.

i get that it feels bad, but thats pretty much how it should play, termis are tough as hell and slow, clowns are squishy but fast and hit hard