Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The rule:
Artillery and Crew: Each Mek Gun and its crew are treated as a single model for all rules purposes (crew models must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun model). This means that the crew models cannot be targeted or attacked separately and that visibility and all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models.

So.. as I see it there are two ways to understand it, and both of them comes with its own issues.

1)
All ranges and line of sight are measured to the Mek gun itself, meaning the grots cant hold objectives, the gun has to physically stand on it, same with dense terrain, the gun itself must stand on it (or behind it) to get affected by this, and deepstrike 9 inches has to be to the mek gun too, not the grots. But if all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun itself and not the grots, wouldnt that mean i can just body block opponents trying to charge it? Simply block the charging unit with my Grots and suddenly the charge distance is much longer because they have to go around the grot crew, because the charge distance is measured to the Mek Gun, and they are hitting the Mek Gun not the grots, so the 1 inch away has to be to it, not the grots.


2)
I CAN hold objectives with the grots and doesnt have to be the gun itself, I CAN sit in dense terrain with grots rather than the gun itself and the deepstrike 9 inch distance is measured to the grots as well not just the Mek Gun. Thus the only time "distance is measured to the Mek Gun as well as line of sight" is only done during the shooting phase. Of course that comes with it its own issue of me being able to hold objectives with grots that enemies cant shoot because they have to target the Mek Gun which might be behind a terrain piece while one grot holds the objective 1 inch within the mek gun.

I cant figure out which of these two are the right one but honestly, i feel like its most likely a third option that i have yet to understand. The wording has changed since last edition, so now im confused. Can anyone help out with the understanding?

The rule as written is broken, and cannot work properly, you already spotted the issues. Talk to your opponent before the game what to do. HIWPI, dont use the grots, only put the gun on the battlefield.

To me the sensible interpretation is that the grots essentially do not exist for any rules purposes. If your opponent tried to block your charge using the grots then you should leave and never play with that person ever again.

 Bilge Rat wrote:
To me the sensible interpretation is that the grots essentially do not exist for any rules purposes. If your opponent tried to block your charge using the grots then you should leave and never play with that person ever again.

Or maybe the opponent just doesn't understand one of the most garbled rules GW have written in a long time...

To all intents and purposes only the gun counts in 9th. I’d either model the grots on the same base or leave them off the table for ease.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
To all intents and purposes only the gun counts in 9th. I’d either model the grots on the same base or leave them off the table for ease.

Well.. Mek Gunz dont come on bases. only the grots do so i cant put them on the base. And this is for a tournement so i was a bit fearful of not bringing grots and then being told that my unit is invalid.

Guess i will have to ask my TO

100%. All you have with this unit is “agree with your opponent” or “ask your TO” if it’s a tourney. Agree upfront then no-one gets salty mid-game.

Beardedragon wrote:
The rule:
Artillery and Crew: Each Mek Gun and its crew are treated as a single model for all rules purposes (crew models must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun model). This means that the crew models cannot be targeted or attacked separately and that visibility and all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models.

So.. as I see it there are two ways to understand it, and both of them comes with its own issues.

1)
All ranges and line of sight are measured to the Mek gun itself, meaning the grots cant hold objectives, the gun has to physically stand on it, same with dense terrain, the gun itself must stand on it (or behind it) to get affected by this, and deepstrike 9 inches has to be to the mek gun too, not the grots. But if all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun itself and not the grots, wouldnt that mean i can just body block opponents trying to charge it? Simply block the charging unit with my Grots and suddenly the charge distance is much longer because they have to go around the grot crew, because the charge distance is measured to the Mek Gun, and they are hitting the Mek Gun not the grots, so the 1 inch away has to be to it, not the grots.

Not really, they're treated as a single model. Meaning making contact with the grots is making contact with the Mek Gun. They just have to have enough charge range by measurement to make it to the Mek Gun, they don't even technically need to get to the Mek Gun as charges are to a unit (and they're all a unit treated as a single model which will solve the next issue with "who can fight")

Edit: or maybe not - Engagement is a range. I'd be curious how much 5 small grot bases can block though, having to be within 1" means enough gap between models will get chargers within 1" or if you're far enough apart they can't go around, they're far enough apart making B2B is probably within 1" of the Gun itself. If you max it out at .999 inches from the gun, That makes the halfway point of the grot base 1.97-ish inches from the bottom - while several bits and bobs stick out an inch or better it looks like. Chargers get 1" and 5" from anything overhanging. You may be able to block the battery box on the left side of the gun, but the spotter post on the middle right and the gun overhang may be difficult to impossible to block. I don't have one but eyeball estimates of the wheel vs a grot base (25mm roughly one inch) makes it look like the spotter post is too high to measure to from a grot base. If the wheel is grot base sized and thus just under an inch in diameter the gun sticks over an inch out the front so even if the riggers are .999 inches out, the gun is over their head and within 1"/5" = the spotter deck is also a wheel length long, over a wheel length high, so there's a 1" inch hole under the spotter platform that can also probably be 1+5 inched.

2)
I CAN hold objectives with the grots and doesnt have to be the gun itself, I CAN sit in dense terrain with grots rather than the gun itself and the deepstrike 9 inch distance is measured to the grots as well not just the Mek Gun. Thus the only time "distance is measured to the Mek Gun as well as line of sight" is only done during the shooting phase. Of course that comes with it its own issue of me being able to hold objectives with grots that enemies cant shoot because they have to target the Mek Gun which might be behind a terrain piece while one grot holds the objective 1 inch within the mek gun.

I cant figure out which of these two are the right one but honestly, i feel like its most likely a third option that i have yet to understand. The wording has changed since last edition, so now im confused. Can anyone help out with the understanding?

Again they're treated as a single model. So you can sit the grots on the objective - assuming you can sit on the objective and be 1" away from the hidden Mek Gun - so it'd be fairly niche and wacky to actually be able to take advantage of it, and two regular grots will outnumber you while still being out of sight of your mek gun. Edit: As long as the Grots aren't max range I guess. if the Grots are 6" away and the Mek Gun is 7" maybe not.. but again that'd be pretty niche to run into.

As i see it it doesnt matter that it states that its a single model. It also states that you have to draw distance and vision to the Mek Gun itself. that means no distances can be drawn to the grots.

If the case was that you could also draw distances to the grots then the entire text would be invalid and doesnt make any sense.

It looks like a royal fuckup to me from the rules department.

And the charge thing DOES make a difference. I have 5 grots per mek gun sitting on 28mm bases, that i have to move within 1 inch (but not wholly within) of the mek gun. That means i can make a wall big enough so that my enemy cant fit his bases through my grot bases, while being far enough away that he isnt within 1 inch of the mek gun, forcing him to go around, making his charge potentially 2-3 inches longer depending on terrain etc.

The only time "treated as a single model" is relevant is when i get attacked and for coherency sake. I dont need to have my grots within 2 inches of other grots, and when i take wounds i dont remove my grots. They all live and die together and leadership isnt taken for the individual grots either. The treated model thing is only there because the Mek Gun is a single piece of artillery with 5 crews considered one model for different purposes. It doesnt off set the fact that the rule also writes all distances and visions are drawn to the Mek Gun and not the grots. It even specifically states that you dont draw distance and LOS to the Grots. Why would the rule specifically state that if they invalidate that immidiately after by saying its considered one model? thats because for the sake of distances and LOS they are NOT considered one model (only the mek gun is relevant there), but they are considered one model in any other given situation. when it comes to line of sight and ranges the Mek Gun is the only thing in the "model" thats important. The grots arent.

That rule is still a thing. And thats why its a problem.

Beardedragon wrote:

And the charge thing DOES make a difference. I have 5 grots per mek gun sitting on 28mm bases, that i have to move within 1 inch (but not wholly within) of the mek gun. That means i can make a wall big enough so that my enemy cant fit his bases through my grot bases,

Looking at the model, I'm not sure you can. Because he has to be within 1" horizontally of any part of the model within 5" above them. Your 1" base has be within 1" of the closest part of the Mek Gun, which with parts more than 1" above the ground will mean the base of the Mek Gun. As I said I don't have one and can't measure, but eyeballing it - the wheel looks to be the same size as the grot base which is according to you is 28mm thus just over 1" in diameter The gun is much higher than the top of the wheel and sticks out an inch or so making the gun side pretty open. The Spotter platform on the gun's right side also looks pretty close to wheel top high and has a hollow between the wheel and the back "foot" so I'd guess its not impossible to block that face, but it's probably difficult. The side with the battery box is probably block-able because its lower. You lose the 2"/5" coherency and have to have the closest part of your grot's base within 1" of the Mekgun model which - based on the slope of the model is usually at the base of the model - especially as most of the parts that stick out are (or appear to be) over 1" over the ground.

Yeah, the rule is fudged... RAW you can use the the gretchin to block movement as the "can't place models on models/can't move through models" rules still applies and with a pair of mek guns at a choke point you can make them unchargeable.

How I play it is that I flat out tell my opponent this and then ask him whether it is ok for him if I remove the crew. If they then start mumbling garbage about how removing them is unfair advantage for you because you reduce the footprint, just play it RAW and let them deal with the awkwardness of having unkillable gretchin blocking their movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

Spoiler:

Beardedragon wrote:

And the charge thing DOES make a difference. I have 5 grots per mek gun sitting on 28mm bases, that i have to move within 1 inch (but not wholly within) of the mek gun. That means i can make a wall big enough so that my enemy cant fit his bases through my grot bases,

Looking at the model, I'm not sure you can. Because he has to be within 1" horizontally of any part of the model within 5" above them. Your 1" base has be within 1" of the closest part of the Mek Gun, which with parts more than 1" above the ground will mean the base of the Mek Gun. As I said I don't have one and can't measure, but eyeballing it - the wheel looks to be the same size as the grot base which is according to you is 28mm thus just over 1" in diameter The gun is much higher than the top of the wheel and sticks out an inch or so making the gun side pretty open. The Spotter platform on the gun's right side also looks pretty close to wheel top high and has a hollow between the wheel and the back "foot" so I'd guess its not impossible to block that face, but it's probably difficult. The side with the battery box is probably block-able because its lower. You lose the 2"/5" coherency and have to have the closest part of your grot's base within 1" of the Mekgun model which - based on the slope of the model is usually at the base of the model - especially as most of the parts that stick out are (or appear to be) over 1" over the ground.

I can assure it's perfectly possible to do, and simply napkin math is that someone charging you can't be within 1" if there is a gretchin standing at .999 blocking you with its base. Essentially you just put 5 gretchin in a half circle with less than half a base distance between them and nothing will get past them due to geometry. Even if you manage to get one or two models past them, those will be all that can fight as you also deny any second rank fighting, and a mek gun isn't that easy to kill with just one or two models.

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, the rule is fudged... RAW you can use the the gretchin to block movement as the "can't place models on models/can't move through models" rules still applies and with a pair of mek guns at a choke point you can make them unchargeable.

How I play it is that I flat out tell my opponent this and then ask him whether it is ok for him if I remove the crew. If they then start mumbling garbage about how removing them is unfair advantage for you because you reduce the footprint, just play it RAW and let them deal with the awkwardness of having unkillable gretchin blocking their movement.

I think I'd Heroically Intervene into them with what everyone is currently interpreting - that said -

Just did some specific rule reading - By Raw, you can legally charge the Mek Gun unit and end up in engagement range. Engagement Range only requires ending within 1" of enemy models not that specific enemy model - and the riggers are still enemy models by themselves and/or by rule part of the MekGun model (which is also still an enemy model).

Hurdles to clear:

Declare the Charge on at least the Mekgun Unit.

End up within 1" of enemy models only from all delcared targets (Think Multi-charge bases covered)

So your charging models within 1" of the riggers are within engagement range of an enemy model - whether the riggers are their own models or part of the Mekgun model - both ways they still count as an enemy model and you're within 1" of them (for the sake of argument you rolled a 12). Anyone have a rule that says they aren't enemy models? After all a big part of why they can block is that they're... enemy models.

So the chargers are in engagement range of the unit and make attacks into that unit - again unless someone can explain how the riggers aren't enemy models which I'm open to but so far we're all still operating on the assumption they are.

The Mekgun may not be in engagement range of the chargers and may not be able to make return attacks into that unit.

I think we interpreted this whole thing backwards and making the riggers part of the model allows the gun to fight. The Riggers don't have their own statline, the only source of fight attacks is the gun. If the riggers aren't part of the gun and just under 1" away the gun isn't within engagement range or within 1/2" of 1/2" - and can't pile in or consolidate to remedy that fact.

This comes into play with Who Can Fight -

Models in engagement range or within 1/2" of a model from their own unit within 1/2" of an enemy model. The charging unit directs their attacks into the MekGun unit. Even if the Mekgun isn't in engagement range itself, it can take the wounds - and in fact has to as it's the only statline in the unit. If the Grots aren't part of the MekGun model the mekgun model can't fight. If they are, they can. And they are by rule - At least that's how I'd play it.

I mean if people really want to say you can't end in engagement range of the Grots because you measure to the Gun, then people can walk straight up into B2B with the Grots - because you're not in engagement range, but you ARE still within 1/2" of 1/2" of an enemy model and can fight without engagement range - because again they're enemy models wihtout some sort of engagement range and that section of who can fight doesn't require engagement range(ergo the plan to Heroically Intervene.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:


I can assure it's perfectly possible to do, and simply napkin math is that someone charging you can't be within 1" if there is a gretchin standing at .999 blocking you with its base. Essentially you just put 5 gretchin in a half circle with less than half a base distance between them and nothing will get past them due to geometry. Even if you manage to get one or two models past them, those will be all that can fight as you also deny any second rank fighting, and a mek gun isn't that easy to kill with just one or two models.

How much and how high is the gun? Does the tip of the gun stick out more than an inch from the base while being 5" or less high? What about a Just under 1inch block under the gun? i.e. from the top of the base to the bottom of the gun then out?

This image even better than the GW website for illustrating what I'm talking about


That's a Grot standing right under the gun on what I've been told is a 28mm (just over and inch long) base and the gun is still further out than the base and less than 5" high. The loop of wire just over his hand doesn't get you much more space, if any. Other gun models may have different overhangs though. Even if you add a full inch to that Grot in B2B contact with the gun, he's not going to be 1+ inch away from the tip of the gun.

Breton wrote:
Just did some specific rule reading - By Raw, you can legally charge the Mek Gun unit and end up in engagement range. Engagement Range only requires ending within 1" of enemy models not that specific enemy model - and the riggers are still enemy models by themselves and/or by rule part of the MekGun model (which is also still an enemy model).

Of course you can legally charge the Mek Gun unit and end up in engagement range, but that is not always easy to do.

However "all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models."

You do not measure to the crew models so they do not count for engagement range. Also, you still can not move through the bases of the crew.

 DeathReaper wrote:


You do not measure to the crew models so they do not count for engagement range. Also, you still can not move through the bases of the crew.

So they're not enemy models? Please cite the rule. The charging unit according to the RAW so far is in engagement range. They're within an inch of enemy models. Unless you can show the crew are not enemy models. The Mekgun may not be in engagement range, but the charging models are unless the grot are not enemy models.

Engagement Range represents the zone of threat that models present to their enemies. While a model is within 1" horizontally and 5" vertically of an enemy model, those models are within Engagement Range of each other. While two enemy models are within Engagement Range of each other, those models’ units are also within Engagement Range of each other. Models cannot be set up within Engagement Range of enemy models.

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, the rule is fudged... RAW you can use the the gretchin to block movement as the "can't place models on models/can't move through models" rules still applies and with a pair of mek guns at a choke point you can make them unchargeable.

How I play it is that I flat out tell my opponent this and then ask him whether it is ok for him if I remove the crew. If they then start mumbling garbage about how removing them is unfair advantage for you because you reduce the footprint, just play it RAW and let them deal with the awkwardness of having unkillable gretchin blocking their movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

Spoiler:

Beardedragon wrote:

And the charge thing DOES make a difference. I have 5 grots per mek gun sitting on 28mm bases, that i have to move within 1 inch (but not wholly within) of the mek gun. That means i can make a wall big enough so that my enemy cant fit his bases through my grot bases,

Looking at the model, I'm not sure you can. Because he has to be within 1" horizontally of any part of the model within 5" above them. Your 1" base has be within 1" of the closest part of the Mek Gun, which with parts more than 1" above the ground will mean the base of the Mek Gun. As I said I don't have one and can't measure, but eyeballing it - the wheel looks to be the same size as the grot base which is according to you is 28mm thus just over 1" in diameter The gun is much higher than the top of the wheel and sticks out an inch or so making the gun side pretty open. The Spotter platform on the gun's right side also looks pretty close to wheel top high and has a hollow between the wheel and the back "foot" so I'd guess its not impossible to block that face, but it's probably difficult. The side with the battery box is probably block-able because its lower. You lose the 2"/5" coherency and have to have the closest part of your grot's base within 1" of the Mekgun model which - based on the slope of the model is usually at the base of the model - especially as most of the parts that stick out are (or appear to be) over 1" over the ground.

I can assure it's perfectly possible to do, and simply napkin math is that someone charging you can't be within 1" if there is a gretchin standing at .999 blocking you with its base. Essentially you just put 5 gretchin in a half circle with less than half a base distance between them and nothing will get past them due to geometry. Even if you manage to get one or two models past them, those will be all that can fight as you also deny any second rank fighting, and a mek gun isn't that easy to kill with just one or two models.

The idea of asking if my enemy wants me to remove the grots or play RAW sounds like an idea.

Ill go with that. As you say if he wants to then he can deal with the crap that comes afterwards if he wants to play RAW.

Breton - it says ALL ranges. Not some

Engagement range is a range. It is thereform measured solely to or from the meek gun, and not the grots. You can never ever measure any range to the grots.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Breton - it says ALL ranges. Not some

Engagement range is a range. It is thereform measured solely to or from the meek gun, and not the grots. You can never ever measure any range to the grots.

Are they (the grots) an enemy model? Does this rule or another make them not an enemy model?

As I pointed out Who Can Fight doesn't strictly require engagement range, that's just the usual way you get into fights. The only way you're blocking the fight is if they're not enemy models. If engagement range is measured from the gun, then opposing models can walk right up to the grots - because they can't get in engagement range with the too-far-away-gun and then still fight in the fight phase for being within a half inch of a same unit model within a half inch of an enemy model. The same RAI of RAW that says Engagement Range is a range because Range is in the name says this isn't a range, because it's not called Fight Range, it's just a within distance.

It never says they're not an enemy model

However
When you try to measure a range to the grot, you're forbidden from doing so.
In order to measure Engagement Range to the grots, you have to break a rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It never says they're not an enemy model

However
When you try to measure a range to the grot, you're forbidden from doing so.
In order to measure Engagement Range to the grots, you have to break a rule.

Again, don't need Engagement range.

Which Models Fight
When a unit makes close combat attacks, only the models in that unit that are either within Engagement Range of an enemy unit, or that are within ½" of another model from their own unit that is itself within ½" of an enemy unit, can fight.

Emphasis mine.

NORMAL MOVE
When a unit makes a Normal Move, each model in that unit can move a distance in inches equal to or less than the Move (M) characteristic shown on its datasheet, but no model can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models.

ADVANCE
When a unit makes an Advance, make an Advance roll for the unit by rolling one D6. Add the result in inches to the Move (M) characteristic of each model in that unit until the end of the current phase. Each model in that unit can then move a distance in inches equal to or less than this total, but no model can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models. A unit cannot shoot or declare a charge in the same turn that it made an Advance.

Advance: Models move up to M+D6".
Cannot move within Engagement Range of enemy models.
Units that Advance cannot shoot or charge this turn.

So if you can't charge within engagement range of the Mekgun unit because you measure Engagement Range to the MekGun, you can walk or advance straight up to B2B contact with the grots - and because you're not in engagement range open up with all your non-pistol weapons even at a different unit - and be within half an inch of a same unit model within half an inch of an enemy unit to fight in the fight phase.

How are you measuring range to the grots?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
How are you measuring range to the grots?

What range to the grots? It's not a range. It's a measured distance.

MEASURING DISTANCES
Distances are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such as is the case with many vehicles, measure to the closest point of any part of that model; this is called measuring to the model’s hull. You can measure distances whenever you wish.

If a rule refers to the closest unit or model, and two or more are equidistant, then the player who is controlling the unit that is using the rule in question selects which unit is the closest for the purposes of resolving that rule.

WITHIN AND WHOLLY WITHIN
If a rule says it applies ‘within’ a certain distance, it applies at any distance that is not more than the specified distance. For example, within 1" means any distance that is not more than 1" away.

If a rule says it affects models that are ‘within’, then it applies so long as any part of the model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance. If a rule says it affects models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if every part of the model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance.

If a rule says it affects units that are ‘within’, then it applies so long as any part of any model’s base (or hull) in that unit is within the specified distance. If a rule says it affects units if ‘every model in that unit is within’ then that rule applies so long as any part of every model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance. If a rule says it affects units that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if every part of every model’s base (or hull) in that unit is within the specified distance.

Model within = any part of model’s base (or hull).

Model wholly within = every part of model’s base (or hull).

Unit within = any model within.

Unit wholly within = every model wholly within.

Engagement Range is a range if you want to say so: its in the name and explained in the paragraph for Engagement Range. Being within 1/2 an inch of 1/2 an inch is not called a range and is explained in the paragraph titled Measuring Distances.

Breton wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You do not measure to the crew models so they do not count for engagement range. Also, you still can not move through the bases of the crew.

So they're not enemy models? Please cite the rule.

Who said they were not models?

Breton wrote:
The charging unit according to the RAW so far is in engagement range. They're within an inch of enemy models. Unless you can show the crew are not enemy models. The Mekgun may not be in engagement range, but the charging models are unless the grot are not enemy models.

Incorrect, as you never measure to the crew models because of the Mek Gunz rules.

Orks – Mek Gunz Dataslate wrote:...all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect, as you never measure to the crew models because of the Mek Gunz rules.

Orks – Mek Gunz Dataslate wrote:...all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models.

You're a few posts behind. If you want to call Engagement Range a range, then enemy models can walk up to the grot riggers and still fight.

Breton wrote:

What range to the grots? It's not a range. It's a measured distance.

Take a step back and listen to yourself, you're being ridiculous.
Stop digging that grave, walk away.

--------------------------------

Let's just agree that the dev's didn't think this rule through. The intent is clearly that the grots don't count for anything, but they're constrained to using the physical models GW sells in the way GW sells them, hence they made up some bs about not measuring to the grots.

If you're the one fielding the grot guns and are worried about this "cock blocking", maybe just don't do it?

Breton wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect, as you never measure to the crew models because of the Mek Gunz rules.

Orks – Mek Gunz Dataslate wrote:...all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models.

You're a few posts behind. If you want to call Engagement Range a range, then enemy models can walk up to the grot riggers and still fight.

Not behind, I just didn't believe you were serious when you said basically said that engagement Range was "not a range. It's a measured distance."


And you can not walk up to the grot riggers and still fight if you are not within 1 inch of the Mek Gun.

 DeathReaper wrote:


And you can not walk up to the grot riggers and still fight if you are not within 1 inch of the Mek Gun.

Who said it was engagement range. There are two criteria for who can fight. One requires engagement range. One does not. I added Emphasis to the Either-Or to make it easier to see.

When a unit makes close combat attacks, only the models in that unit that are either within Engagement Range of an enemy unit, or that are within ½" of another model from their own unit that is itself within ½" of an enemy unit, can fight.

A model can fight if it is in Engagement Range of an enemy unit.

A model can fight if it is within ½" of another model from their own unit that is within ½" of an enemy unit.

However, delving deeper while the models are eligible to fight, the unit is not eligible to be chosen unless it can get in engagement range of another nearby unit and also end up next to the riggers. This also poses an issue for the Heroic Intervention into Eligible to fight range idea I had.

Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it (see below). An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn

So Again, you CAN fight the Mekgun if you have the right combination of within half inches and a way to trigger unit-level fight phase eligibility. That second bullet point makes the models eligible to fight, but not the unit.
If we're talking 5 man 40 inch bases - Aggressors/Terminators/Melee Nid Warriors/MANZ, etc you can string almost 14 inches. 10 model 25/32mm (Kroot Carnivores/choppa boys) based modesl that can't fly or otherwise skip over the screen (flip belt) can stretch even further, but you're rapidly running out of units that want to fight instead of shoot the Gun.

Or land under the gun which is still simplest. If you absolutely have to fight the thing. Looking at base sizes made me realize very few units that can't jump over or around the screen would rather fight it than shoot it

On a side note figuring out how a unit could make a charge move and NOT be in engagement range when selected to fight - and still be able to fight - was a fun brain teaser too.

So you don't think distance between two units is also a range?

Yes, you need to be in "Engagement Range of an enemy unit." or "within ½" of another model from their own unit that is within ½" of an enemy unit" (This means you need a model within 1/2 of an enemy unit, which would be in engagement range sine 1/2 inch is closer than the 1 inch engagement range).

And you can have a model within 1/2 inch of a crew model, but that does not count for the rules for fighting because you can not measure to the crew.

They would need to be within 1/2 inch of the gun model, as "all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models."

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes, you need to be in "Engagement Range of an enemy unit." or "within ½" of another model from their own unit that is within ½" of an enemy unit" (This means you need a model within 1/2 of an enemy unit, which would be in engagement range sine 1/2 inch is closer than the 1 inch engagement range).

And you can have a model within 1/2 inch of a crew model, but that does not count for the rules for fighting because you can not measure to the crew.

They would need to be within 1/2 inch of the gun model, as "all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models."

This means you need a model within 1/2 of an enemy unit, which would be in engagement range sine 1/2 inch is closer than the 1 inch engagement range

Then ending a charge within an inch of the crew means you finished in engagement range. Either you can measure engagement range to the crew or you can't. If you can't you can walk right up to them. If you can, then the charge succeeds. Can't have it both ways.
You can't measure RANGES to the crew. You can measure DISTANCE to the crew.

and that visibility and all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models.

A grot within 6" of an explosion is within 6" and triggers the mortal wounds.

A grot within 3"/5" of an objective is within 3"/5" of an objective.

A Mek within 3" of a Grot can repair the Mekgun (because the Grot is part of the Mekgun VEHICLE model).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you don't think distance between two units is also a range?

I think if you're going to parse the crew rules in a strictly literal manner, everyone else should parse the lack of "range" in the measuring distances rule just as strictly. Engagement Range is a range because it has range in the name, Measuring Distance is not called a range thus not a range.
I think they meant shooting range not engagement range when they wrote the rule - especially with the inclusion of "visibility and all ranges" which isn't required for charging.
I think the 6 fight attacks the gun has represents the riggers, and GW should have just copied and pasted the rules for the Techmarine Gunner and Thunderfire Cannon, because that also returns the riggers to their normal strength (from their statline) not the gun's.
And the unit counts as 7 models on an objective which it should.

No, its range. Not Range. The natural parsing of range is used

Are you in range when shooting? You measure between two units to find that out...

All measurement to find out how far you are from the mek gunz is done from the gun itself. You never have permission to ever measure any sort of distance to the crew.