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Then ending a charge within an inch of the crew means you finished in engagement range. Either you can measure engagement range to the crew or you can't. If you can't you can walk right up to them. If you can, then the charge succeeds. Can't have it both ways.
You can't measure RANGES to the crew. You can measure DISTANCE to the crew.
You cant measure engagement range to the crew. In order to determine whether you are within engagement range, or not, you need to measure distance. And distances/ranges are always measured to the gun itself, not the grots. If you are within 1" of a grot, you probably arent within engagement range of the gun, when the grot is between the gun and your model.
Artillery and Crew: Each Mek Gun and its crew are treated as a single model for all rules purposes (crew models must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun model). This means that the crew models cannot be targeted or attacked separately and that visibility and all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models.
And the unit counts as 7 models on an objective which it should.
No, its one model. The rule is very clear about this.
Artillery and Crew: Each Mek Gun and its crew are treated as a single model for all rules purposes (crew models must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun model). This means that the crew models cannot be targeted or attacked separately and that visibility and all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models.
You do not succeed a charge if you dont end within engagement range, and if all ranges has to be measured to the Mek Gun itself, thats pretty self explainatory for why this is a problem.
For all intends and purposes the gun and crew are considered one model, but NOT for vision or ranges. ALL vision and ALL ranges. This is because it explicitly states this. engagement "RANGE" is a range. The moment you even consider bringing out your ruler, its related to range. That range goes to the Mek Gun, not the Grots.
You are just trying to make it work when it doesnt. The rule is busted. Accept it.
- Mek guns count as one model on objectives - Grots cant hold objectives, only the Mek Gun itself can - Explosions cant hit the grots and thus the Mek Gun. Because the explosion range has to be measured to the Mek Gun - You cant repair a Mek Gun because you can reach a grot. You have to reach the Mek Gun.
As i said dont try to make sense of a rule that doesnt make sense. Because it doesnt make sense.. Yes it also states they are considered one model, and they are, for all purposes except one that requires VISION or RANGE. All the points above requires range. Range to the explosion, range to repairs, range to the objective, and range to be in engagement range.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2022/03/02 07:39:19
Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.
DeathReaper wrote: Yes, you need to be in "Engagement Range of an enemy unit." or "within ½" of another model from their own unit that is within ½" of an enemy unit" (This means you need a model within 1/2 of an enemy unit, which would be in engagement range sine 1/2 inch is closer than the 1 inch engagement range).
And you can have a model within 1/2 inch of a crew model, but that does not count for the rules for fighting because you can not measure to the crew.
They would need to be within 1/2 inch of the gun model, as "all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models."
This means you need a model within 1/2 of an enemy unit, which would be in engagement range sine 1/2 inch is closer than the 1 inch engagement range
Then ending a charge within an inch of the crew means you finished in engagement range. Either you can measure engagement range to the crew or you can't. If you can't you can walk right up to them. If you can, then the charge succeeds. Can't have it both ways.
You can't measure RANGES to the crew. You can measure DISTANCE to the crew.
and that visibility and all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models.
A grot within 6" of an explosion is within 6" and triggers the mortal wounds.
A grot within 3"/5" of an objective is within 3"/5" of an objective.
A Mek within 3" of a Grot can repair the Mekgun (because the Grot is part of the Mekgun VEHICLE model).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote: So you don't think distance between two units is also a range?
I think if you're going to parse the crew rules in a strictly literal manner, everyone else should parse the lack of "range" in the measuring distances rule just as strictly. Engagement Range is a range because it has range in the name, Measuring Distance is not called a range thus not a range.
I think they meant shooting range not engagement range when they wrote the rule - especially with the inclusion of "visibility and all ranges" which isn't required for charging.
I think the 6 fight attacks the gun has represents the riggers, and GWshould have just copied and pasted the rules for the Techmarine Gunner and Thunderfire Cannon, because that also returns the riggers to their normal strength (from their statline) not the gun's.
And the unit counts as 7 models on an objective which it should.
Other people have posted why some of your post was incorrect, I wanted to address a few points.
You said "A grot within 6" of an explosion is within 6" and triggers the mortal wounds." This is not true as "all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models."
You said "A Mek within 3" of a Grot can repair the Mekgun (because the Grot is part of the Mekgun VEHICLE model)." This is not true as "all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models."
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
nosferatu1001 wrote: No, its range. Not Range. The natural parsing of range is used
Are you in range when shooting? You measure between two units to find that out...
All measurement to find out how far you are from the mek gunz is done from the gun itself. You never have permission to ever measure any sort of distance to the crew.
So you're saying you can never measure the within 1" between the Mekgun and the crew to... the crew?
Are you saying you can't deploy the Mekgun in the first place because you can't measure the distance to - and thus have all models entirely within your deployment zone from... the crew?
Or are there distances that are not ranges?
All thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs. Its likely (there may be some range somewhere that isn't a measurement in inches) all ranges are measurements, but definitely not all measurements are ranges.
You do not succeed a charge if you dont end within engagement range, and if all ranges has to be measured to the Mek Gun itself, thats pretty self explainatory for why this is a problem.
For all intends and purposes the gun and crew are considered one model, but NOT for vision or ranges. ALL vision and ALL ranges. This is because it explicitly states this. engagement "RANGE" is a range. The moment you even consider bringing out your ruler, its related to range. That range goes to the Mek Gun, not the Grots.
You are just trying to make it work when it doesnt. The rule is busted. Accept it.
I agree the rule is busted - but read the whole post. And you're almost getting my point. If Engagement Range is a range, you can walk up to the crew, because you measure to the gun. If its not a range you can't walk up to the crew (because you can't walk into engagement range), but a charge move that ends close enough IS successful. Those are mutually exclusive. You can't have it both ways.
[spoiler]
- Mek guns count as one model on objectives
- Grots cant hold objectives, only the Mek Gun itself can
- Explosions cant hit the grots and thus the Mek Gun. Because the explosion range has to be measured to the Mek Gun
- You cant repair a Mek Gun because you can reach a grot. You have to reach the Mek Gun.
As i said dont try to make sense of a rule that doesnt make sense. Because it doesnt make sense.. Yes it also states they are considered one model, and they are, for all purposes except one that requires VISION or RANGE. All the points above requires range. Range to the explosion, range to repairs, range to the objective, and range to be in engagement range.
- I said they SHOULD/WOULD count as 7 - so while I didn't explicitly state that it currently counts as 1, I thought it was pretty clearly implied.
- Would you please cite the rule that explosions are a range? The rule for explosions I see most often says all models (moreso than even all enemy models) within X inches. It doesn't say "Explosion Range:"
- Same with the Repair Rule -
Mekaniak: At the end of your Movement phase, this model can repair one friendly <CLAN> VEHICLE model within 3" of it. That VEHICLE model regains 1 lost wound. Each model can only be repaired once per turn.
Could you show me where that says Repair Range?
Also that rule sucks too, either make it D3 like the Techmarine or allow it to be repaired up to 3 times.
And the unit counts as 7 models on an objective which it should.
No, its one model. The rule is very clear about this.
Um. That was part of the "how I would play it" by copy/pasting the Thunderfire Cannon Crew rule and giving the grots a statline. You kind of snipped the rest of it.
I think the 6 fight attacks the gun has represents the riggers, and GW should have just copied and pasted the rules for the Techmarine Gunner and Thunderfire Cannon, because that also returns the riggers to their normal strength (from their statline) not the gun's.
And the unit counts as 7 models on an objective which it should.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/02 08:21:07
Beardedragon wrote: a range doesnt have to state "range" in order to be a range.
When an explosion occurs the unit just have to be within 6 inches, or often 6 inches that is.
You take the measurement device, then measure whether the mek gun is within 6 inches of the explosion occuring.
When it says all ranges it means all ranges.
the moment anything requires a measuring device, its a range.
So you're saying you can never measure the within 1" between the Mekgun and the crew to... the crew?
Are you saying you can't deploy the Mekgun in the first place because you can't measure the distance to - and thus have all models entirely within your deployment zone from... the crew?
Or are there distances that are not ranges?
All thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs. Its likely (there may be some range somewhere that isn't a measurement in inches) all ranges are measurements, but definitely not all measurements are ranges.
Breton wrote: So you're saying you can never measure the within 1" between the Mekgun and the crew to... the crew?
The rules on the Mek Gun Dataslate actually specifically state that "crew models must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun model" so it is more specific than the rule that says "all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model"
Are you saying you can't deploy the Mekgun in the first place because you can't measure the distance to - and thus have all models entirely within your deployment zone from... the crew?
The rules on the Mek Gun Dataslate actually specifically state that "crew models must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun model" so it is more specific than the rule that says "all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model"
Or are there distances that are not ranges?
All distances are ranges. Everything that is measured in inches is a range, as that is how the English language works.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/02 09:30:16
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
Beardedragon wrote: a range doesnt have to state "range" in order to be a range.
When an explosion occurs the unit just have to be within 6 inches, or often 6 inches that is.
You take the measurement device, then measure whether the mek gun is within 6 inches of the explosion occuring.
When it says all ranges it means all ranges.
the moment anything requires a measuring device, its a range.
So you're saying you can never measure the within 1" between the Mekgun and the crew to... the crew?
Are you saying you can't deploy the Mekgun in the first place because you can't measure the distance to - and thus have all models entirely within your deployment zone from... the crew?
Or are there distances that are not ranges?
All thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs. Its likely (there may be some range somewhere that isn't a measurement in inches) all ranges are measurements, but definitely not all measurements are ranges.
i feel like talking to you is like taking a class on philosophy. Dont over think these things.
Also i have no idea what you're saying. You measure to the Mek Gun. thats just how it is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/02 09:52:00
Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Breton wrote: Just did some specific rule reading - By Raw, you can legally charge the Mek Gun unit and end up in engagement range. Engagement Range only requires ending within 1" of enemy models not that specific enemy model - and the riggers are still enemy models by themselves and/or by rule part of the MekGun model (which is also still an enemy model).
You are not allowed to measure to the gunners, therefore this doesn't work. You can be in base contact with as many crewmen as you like, you are still more than 1" away from the model due to how measuring works. You can never in engagement range of a mek gun unit unless you are within 1" of the actual mek gun. If you are not within 1" you are not allowed to make attacks, no matter how you got there.
Jidmah wrote: How much and how high is the gun? Does the tip of the gun stick out more than an inch from the base while being 5" or less high? What about a Just under 1inch block under the gun? i.e. from the top of the base to the bottom of the gun then out?
There is no reason to point the gun towards the enemy. In addition, at least the KMK and smasha have bits below them that are closer than 1" to the ground.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
You are not allowed to measure to the gunners, therefore this doesn't work. You can be in base contact with as many crewmen as you like, you are still more than 1" away from the model due to how measuring works. You can never in engagement range of a mek gun unit unless you are within 1" of the actual mek gun. If you are not within 1" you are not allowed to make attacks, no matter how you got there.
No, that second part isn't quite true -
When a unit makes close combat attacks, only the models in that unit that are either within Engagement Range of an enemy unit, or that are within ½" of another model from their own unit that is itself within ½" of an enemy unit, can fight.
Emphasis mine.
Now to select the unit to fight they have to be in engagement range of SOMETHING but it doesn't have to be the Mekgun, Models within 1/2 of 1/2 to the crew can select the Mekgun unit as long as their unit can be selected in the fight phase.
i feel like talking to you is like taking a class on philosophy. Dont over think these things.
Also i have no idea what you're saying. You measure to the Mek Gun. thats just how it is.
I feel like you're avoiding the questions. How do you measure grots within 1" of the mekgun if you can't measure to... the grots? If all measuring is ranges you can never measure coherency or Deployment zone legal to the grots so you can't even deploy the Mekgun in the first place. These are Core Rules, one of which is even mentioned in the special rule and causes a major issue with the claim all measurements are ranges. Which is probably why you're avoiding the question
Breton wrote: So you're saying you can never measure the within 1" between the Mekgun and the crew to... the crew?
The rules on the Mek Gun Dataslate actually specifically state that "crew models must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun model" so it is more specific than the rule that says "all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model"
Are you saying you can't deploy the Mekgun in the first place because you can't measure the distance to - and thus have all models entirely within your deployment zone from... the crew?
The rules on the Mek Gun Dataslate actually specifically state that "crew models must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun model" so it is more specific than the rule that says "all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model"
Or are there distances that are not ranges?
All distances are ranges. Everything that is measured in inches is a range, as that is how the English language works.
So all distances are ranges,
the rule specifies ranges can never be measured to the crew,
but the distance between the mekgun and the crew is therefore a range
and MUST be measured to the crew.
But cannot be measured to the crew per the rule.
Tell me more about how the English language works.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/03/02 19:01:43
Breton wrote: Now to select the unit to fight they have to be in engagement range of SOMETHING but it doesn't have to be the Mekgun, Models within 1/2 of 1/2 to the crew can select the Mekgun unit as long as their unit can be selected in the fight phase.
Emphasis mine.
The underlined is absolutely not true. How are you measuring 1/2 inch to the crew models exactly, when there is an explicit rule that tells you "all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model" 1/2 inch is a range, therefore you can not measure that to the crew. You would have to measure to the gun itself, not the crew models.
If you measure 1/2 inch to the crew models, you are breaking the rules. .
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/03/02 19:39:31
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
DeathReaper wrote: How are you measuring 1/2 inch to the crew models exactly,
The same way the player owning the Mekgun measures within 1" from the Mekgun to the crew.
Which you are explicitly told you can not do...
"all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model" 1/2 inch is a range, therefore you can not measure that to the crew.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
DeathReaper wrote: How are you measuring 1/2 inch to the crew models exactly,
The same way the player owning the Mekgun measures within 1" from the Mekgun to the crew.
Which you are explicitly told you can not do...
"all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model" 1/2 inch is a range, therefore you can not measure that to the crew.
Then the player owning the Mekgun can't measure 1" to the grots. Its the same wording. So despite your claim it's a range without anything to substantiate it, the very rules that say you can't measure ranges to the grots but does require you to measure within 1" to the grots pretty strongly suggests the wording within X" is in fact not a range.
DeathReaper wrote: How are you measuring 1/2 inch to the crew models exactly,
The same way the player owning the Mekgun measures within 1" from the Mekgun to the crew.
Which you are explicitly told you can not do...
"all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model" 1/2 inch is a range, therefore you can not measure that to the crew.
Then the player owning the Mekgun can't measure 1" to the grots. Its the same wording.
Yes they can, I said this before, but you may have ignored it. They can because the rules on the Mek Gun Dataslate actually specifically state that "crew models must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun model" so it is more specific than the rule that says "all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model"
Breton wrote: So despite your claim it's a range without anything to substantiate it,
Except for, you know, the English language...
In English, when you measure 1 inch away, that is a range. Anything measured in feet and inches in relation to two objects is a range. This is how English works.
Breton wrote: the very rules that say you can't measure ranges to the grots but does require you to measure within 1" to the grots pretty strongly suggests the wording within X" is in fact not a range.
You can't measure ranges to the grots.
You can measure within 1" to the grots because the rules specifically tell you to, those are more specific than the rule about not measuring to the crew.
It is still a range because of how the English language works.
Your statements are not correct.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
You are not allowed to measure to the gunners, therefore this doesn't work. You can be in base contact with as many crewmen as you like, you are still more than 1" away from the model due to how measuring works. You can never in engagement range of a mek gun unit unless you are within 1" of the actual mek gun. If you are not within 1" you are not allowed to make attacks, no matter how you got there.
No, that second part isn't quite true -
When a unit makes close combat attacks, only the models in that unit that are either within Engagement Range of an enemy unit, or that are within ½" of another model from their own unit that is itself within ½" of an enemy unit, can fight.
Emphasis mine.
Now to select the unit to fight they have to be in engagement range of SOMETHING but it doesn't have to be the Mekgun, Models within 1/2 of 1/2 to the crew can select the Mekgun unit as long as their unit can be selected in the fight phase.
Please read what "engagement range" is. Being in engagement range to a model requires you to be within 1" of it. You cannot be within 1" of the crewmen because you cannot measure to them, even if they are in physical contact with you.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Then the player owning the Mekgun can't measure 1" to the grots. Its the same wording.
Yes they can, I said this before, but you may have ignored it. They can because the rules on the Mek Gun Dataslate actually specifically state that "crew models must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun model" so it is more specific than the rule that says "all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model"
The rule does not make an allowance to measure within 1" to the Grots. It merely states a requirment without - under your interpretation of ranges and measuring - giving an exemption allowing fulfillment. Crew must be within 1" - but you STILL have no permission to measure to the crew. There's far more support "in how English works" supporting my interpretation - that not all measurements are ranges - because the things I listed all use the same wording. i.e. within x" and not the word range. In fact they're working pretty hard NOT to call it Coherency Range here -
UNIT COHERENCY
A unit that has more than one model must be set up and finish any sort of move as a single group, with all models within 2" horizontally and 5" vertically of at least one other model from their unit. While a unit has six or more models, all models must instead be within 2" horizontally and 5" vertically of at least two other models from their unit. This is called unit coherency. If a unit cannot end any kind of move in unit coherency, that move cannot be made. Units are primarily moved in the Movement phase, but they can also be moved in the Charge phase and the Fight phase.
Some rules allow you to add models to a unit during the battle; such models must always be set up in unit coherency with the unit they are being added to. Sometimes there will be insufficient room to set up all the models from a unit, or it will not be possible to set up all the models so that they are in unit coherency. When this is the case, any models that cannot be set up are considered to have been destroyed.
Jidmah wrote:Please read what "engagement range" is. Being in engagement range to a model requires you to be within 1" of it. You cannot be within 1" of the crewmen because you cannot measure to them, even if they are in physical contact with you.
Please read the second part of the Who can fight requirments after the bolded, highlighted, underlined, and italicized word "or". Also I would point out you cannot measure RANGES to them. I contend not all measurements are ranges as you can see above.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/03 13:04:54
Like who even cares. the rule is busted, but not so fething busted that you cant move Mek Gunz. if that was the case why would they give it a movement characteristic of 3?
I will move my grots as i please
Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Breton wrote: The rule does not make an allowance to measure within 1"
Except it literally does.
As nosferatu1001 said, "It gives you a requirement to fulfil,,so it's the exception. It's more specific"
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
nosferatu1001 wrote: It gives you a requirement to fulfil,,so it's the exception. It's more specific
A distance from x to y is the range of y from x
Where is that in the rules?
Here is the text for measuring distances:
MEASURING DISTANCES
Distances are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such as is the case with many vehicles, measure to the closest point of any part of that model; this is called measuring to the model’s hull. You can measure distances whenever you wish.
If a rule refers to the closest unit or model, and two or more are equidistant, then the player who is controlling the unit that is using the rule in question selects which unit is the closest for the purposes of resolving that rule.
Distances measured in inches (").
Always measure closest distance between bases (or hulls).
Hull = Any part of a model that does not have a base.
Can measure distances whenever you want.
If several units tied for closest, player resolving the rule selects which is closest.
WITHIN AND WHOLLY WITHIN
If a rule says it applies ‘within’ a certain distance, it applies at any distance that is not more than the specified distance. For example, within 1" means any distance that is not more than 1" away.
If a rule says it affects models that are ‘within’, then it applies so long as any part of the model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance. If a rule says it affects models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if every part of the model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance.
If a rule says it affects units that are ‘within’, then it applies so long as any part of any model’s base (or hull) in that unit is within the specified distance. If a rule says it affects units if ‘every model in that unit is within’ then that rule applies so long as any part of every model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance. If a rule says it affects units that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if every part of every model’s base (or hull) in that unit is within the specified distance.
Model within = any part of model’s base (or hull).
Model wholly within = every part of model’s base (or hull).
Unit within = any model within.
Unit wholly within = every model wholly within.
I tried to CTRL+F the word "range", and I can't find it in that quote. Can you requote and show me?
Auras are a range. In fact, if all measurements are ranges as you claim, the entire Aura rule is redundant -
AURA ABILITIES
Some abilities affect models or units in a given range – these are aura abilities. A model with an aura ability is always within range of its effect. The effects of multiple, identically named aura abilities are not cumulative (i.e. if a unit is within range of two models with the same aura ability, that aura ability only applies to the unit once).
Aura abilities are within a given range, not a measured distance while they appear to have gone out of their way in the "Measured distance" section to avoid "given range".
Shooting is a range.
Explodes. Perils, (probably) Smite(and other powers), Mekaniak,and a host of other non-aura within X" are a measured distance.
Like who even cares. the rule is busted, but not so fething busted that you cant move Mek Gunz. if that was the case why would they give it a movement characteristic of 3?
I will move my grots as i please
So you're saying the measured distance you move is in fact NOT a range?
NORMAL MOVE
When a unit makes a Normal Move, each model in that unit can move a distance in inches equal to or less than the Move (M) characteristic shown on its datasheet, but no model can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models.
And Deployment Zones are not a range? I mean before you move it you have to deploy it and show all models are wholy within the measured distance of your deployment zone.
As for who cares? Nobody really. The scenario I'm pointing out by the same strict reading everyone does on this rule and Engagement Range does say this scenario works but the scenario is so very rare and niche, one in a million. You'd need a unit that wants to smack the gun instead of shoot the gun AND not have a way to get over/around the Grots (I'd guess this just eliminted over 90% of the units in the game based on my quick check earlier), AND be stuck on the wrong side of the gun, AND have a second enemy unit close enough to get in engagement range of IT AND while two models remain within a half inch of a half inch.
There are two part of this that is entertaining to me -
Finding the loopholes in the loopholes of broken rule
Watching people dig the hole even deeper rather than admit they were even a little wrong and loopholes to the loopholes exist. Or that one busted rule can't bust another one. Or two rules can't be busted at the same time
I've had to revise the extremely narrow way to make it work a couple times as adding a new rule changes the previous rules interactions - i.e. Who Can Fight still requires the unit itself to be eligible to be chosen which creates a complication for Heroic Intervention and/or just walking up to the crew. so it required a second enemy unit close enough. And instead of stepping back to look at the entire scenario people have instead tried to claim all measurements are ranges - without any supporting evidence from the rule book - and all without giving a thought to deployment, movement, and so on.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/04 05:17:27
nosferatu1001 wrote: It gives you a requirement to fulfil,,so it's the exception. It's more specific
A distance from x to y is the range of y from x
Where is that in the rules?
It comes from the English language, as the term "Range" is not defined in the 40K ruleset.
It defined "Ranged Attack" and "Ranged Weapon" but not "Range" so we need to use the basic English definition of "Range" Which is of course A distance from x to y is the range of y from x.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
nosferatu1001 wrote: It gives you a requirement to fulfil,,so it's the exception. It's more specific
A distance from x to y is the range of y from x
Where is that in the rules?
It comes from the English language, as the term "Range" is not defined in the 40K ruleset.
It defined "Ranged Attack" and "Ranged Weapon" but not "Range" so we need to use the basic English definition of "Range" Which is of course A distance from x to y is the range of y from x.
Actually it DOES define range. In the Shooting Section.
In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range (i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic)
Next?
Also now you have a Grand Master/Supreme Grandmaster problem. If range is defined in the shooting phase, and now requires a range characteristic Engagement Range does not have a range characteristic, has another word, and a captital R - so it may well be that Engagement Range is not part of all ranges which is also lowercase on the special rule.
This means that the crew models cannot be targeted or attacked separately and that visibility and all ranges are measured to and from the Mek Gun’s model, not the crew models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/04 07:11:26
Beardedragon wrote: No Breton im saying i have a movement characteristic of 3, that means i can move 3 inches.
I cant move if i cant move the grots, so obviously i move the grots.
If i told the TO that you told me i cant move my mek gun despite it having a movement characteristic of 3, he would laugh at you.
And you tell me I can't measure engagement range to the grots. So how are you measuring your movement "range" to the grots? How are you measuring your deployment "range"?
And if you could, please quote a rule that then trumps the crew rule as you've interpreted it. Because I Said So is starting to get overused.
No, that does not define the general term "range", of course it doesn't. It defines what is meant to be able to target, as the "ie" is to the whole sentence.
Next.
It is still English language taking me to range being the distance from y to x. As that's what range means.
So you cannot measure your half inch as this is not a range (from the target unit to you) you are allowed to measure. Ever.
Breton wrote: Actually it DOES define range. In the Shooting Section.
In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range (i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic)
Yeas, that doers not define the term "range"
Read the whole sentence.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/03/04 09:44:10
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
Breton wrote: Actually it DOES define range. In the Shooting Section.
In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range (i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic)
Yeas, that doers not define the term "range"
Read the whole sentence.
range=within the distance of the Range characteristic
To paraphrase you - It comes from the English language - i.e. ABBREVIATION
that is to say (used to add explanatory information or to state something in different words).
Or did you finally quote something in support and I missed it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/04 10:29:44
Beardedragon wrote: No Breton im saying i have a movement characteristic of 3, that means i can move 3 inches.
I cant move if i cant move the grots, so obviously i move the grots.
If i told the TO that you told me i cant move my mek gun despite it having a movement characteristic of 3, he would laugh at you.
And you tell me I can't measure engagement range to the grots. So how are you measuring your movement "range" to the grots? How are you measuring your deployment "range"?
And if you could, please quote a rule that then trumps the crew rule as you've interpreted it. Because I Said So is starting to get overused.
It's part of the movement rules, first section. You measure movement from the base/hull, so you use the part of gun itself which is moving the furthest to figure out the distance. Technically, you can even move the gretchin further than the guns maximum movement distance, as long as they remain within 1" and adhere to the rules of that section.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/04 10:35:20
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
