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Just had a thought as well - I wouldn't be surprised to see some "Company Command" - Think Company Commander into Creed. The others are less obvious... There's already a Comisar and Lord Comisar. I suppose we could see upgrades to the psyker and Lord Comisar.

 carldooley wrote:

 kurhanik wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

 kurhanik wrote:
You know, for the purpose of not rolling hundreds of dice for little gain, I think at this point I'd just like to see the lasgun get a sidegrade that has similar effect to current setup but without all the dice rolling. Say instead of rapid fire and FRFSRF boosting the shots even more, give it 1 shot, and then rolls of 4 = 1 hit, roll of 5 = 2, roll of 6 = 3 hits. Maybe change FRFSRF to increase all hits by 1 so that 4 = 2 hits, 5 = 3 hits, and 6 = 4 hits.

Just one of those things where you are rolling 1/2 to 1/4 of the dice but with the exploding numbers are still getting a reasonable number of hits in.

At least I'd prefer that to the solution of giving lasguns more shots and then having to roll literal buckets of dice for a single squad.

complains about rolling too many dice, and his solution? more dice, More Dice, MORE DICE!!!

Um...I'm confused? How is rolling 10 dice for a squad of lasguns more rolling than 19 (rapid fire) or 37 (rapid fire + FRFSRF)?

Your suggestion was progressively more exploding hits on a bunch of hits. How do you resolve them? Are they auto-wounding? or would you need MORE DICE!!!?

Um no? It was - roll 10 dice instead of however many more, then every 4 is a single successful hit, every 5 is 2 successful hits, and 6 is 3 successful hits, which you um, roll damage for as normal? It gets the idea of massed fire across without having to actually roll a ton of shots. I'm just not sure where you get progressively more hits from that statement. Its just a shortcut to save on rolling and counting quite as many dice.

So if you rolled an attack of a squad with 9 lasguns and 1 laspistol, and say got 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6. You would have 7 hits in total (or 11 with frfsrf) to resolve damage from. Like I said, just simpler than rolling and tracking 19 dice, or 37 with frfsrf.

Not even saying its a good idea. I'm just confused by the reaction that rolling between 1/2 and close to 1/4 of the dice somehow equals more dice rolling.

 kurhanik wrote:


Not even saying its a good idea. I'm just confused by the reaction that rolling between 1/2 and close to 1/4 of the dice somehow equals more dice rolling.

For one, it sounds like you're skipping rolling to wound. A quarter of the dice when you've only eliminted roughly a third on average?

Breton wrote:

 kurhanik wrote:


Not even saying its a good idea. I'm just confused by the reaction that rolling between 1/2 and close to 1/4 of the dice somehow equals more dice rolling.

For one, it sounds like you're skipping rolling to wound. A quarter of the dice when you've only eliminted roughly a third on average?

Normal sequence for shooting a squad of 10 Guardsmen in Rapid Fire with FRFSRF is...

37 shots, average of 18-19 hits (we'll call it 18)
18 more rolls for wounding
Total of 55 dice rolled.

Their suggestion is to roll 10 dice, then get hits based on the rolls. Average of 15 hits with FRFSRF. Total of 25 dice rolled, with 10 dice for the hits and 15 for the wounds.
If Rapid Fire also adds +1 hit to the 4+ results, that increases to 20 hits and 30 dice total.

So a quarter is exaggerating, but half is about right.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 kurhanik wrote:


Not even saying its a good idea. I'm just confused by the reaction that rolling between 1/2 and close to 1/4 of the dice somehow equals more dice rolling.

For one, it sounds like you're skipping rolling to wound. A quarter of the dice when you've only eliminted roughly a third on average?

Normal sequence for shooting a squad of 10 Guardsmen in Rapid Fire with FRFSRF is...

37 shots, average of 18-19 hits (we'll call it 18)
18 more rolls for wounding
Total of 55 dice rolled.

Their suggestion is to roll 10 dice, then get hits based on the rolls. Average of 15 hits with FRFSRF. Total of 25 dice rolled, with 10 dice for the hits and 15 for the wounds.
If Rapid Fire also adds +1 hit to the 4+ results, that increases to 20 hits and 30 dice total.

So a quarter is exaggerating, but half is about right.

Yeah, essentially this. The 1/4 bit was in reference to rolls to hit. Auto wounding lasguns seem like they would be a bit like opening a can of worms.

Unless your dice are on fire, the wound rolls will always be fewer than the number of dice you are rolling to hit after all (without exploding hits). I mean theoretically you could currently get 37 hits and roll 37 wound dice yes, for a total of 74 dice. Unlikely but physically possible. With just rolling 10 attack dice, even if you get all 6s, its 30 hits (or 40 with frfsrf) for a total of 40/50 dice rolls - still fewer than the theoretical max of 74.

Like I said, not necessarily saying it is a fantastic idea, and obviously it would need to be hammered out. I'd just rather something like that to shorthand the effect of lots of shots to giving them even more shots.

Rather than autowounding I'd find something like giving FRFSRF exploding hits. Maybe tie it into the new orders system so the more units affected by the same order that shoot the same target the better the hits explode on (unmodified 6+ for one unit, 5+ for two units, 4+ for three or more units).

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Rather than autowounding I'd find something like giving FRFSRF exploding hits. Maybe tie it into the new orders system so the more units affected by the same order that shoot the same target the better the hits explode on (unmodified 6+ for one unit, 5+ for two units, 4+ for three or more units).

The last thing the army needs is more dice. I would rejoice if stuff like orders reduced dice rolls. So FRFSRF instead of doubling shots now auto hits. Burn Them Out! means you do max hits. Bring it down does an extra auto wounding hit on a 6. Etc. Just imagine if the army got quicker to play...

I think if you aren't going for a radical overhaul or abilities like GSC (for example doing 'suppression*' in some form rather than crossfire and so on) you have to buff the firepower but in a humdrum way. For me that would be including basic heavy and special weapons into a squad price, and sponson and secondary weapons into vehicle prices. While keeping those prices low. Cutting down the options should also help min maxing be ironed out a bit. So similar number of bodies but an increase in firepower.

Hell given free reign I would go further. Start combining entries. For example...
Heavy weapon, special weapon and infantry squad replaced with...
Imperial Guard Squad - 50 points
Fluff, many and varied, outfitted number of tasks etc etc
Sarge - pistol and sword or lasgun
Comms - Lasgun wielding guardsmen with Vox
5 Guardsmen with lasguns
1 Guardsman with sniper rifle (+5 points to change for other special weapon)
2 Guardsmen with special weapons (flamer or grenade, +5 points each to change to melta, plasma or Hve flamer)
Options
Replace up to 3 special weapons with heavy weapons. Each team replaces 1 special weapon and 1 las gun. +5/+10 (las/missile) each

Conscripts get regular guard stats, come in 20-30 man blobs, can take up to 3 flamers/grenade launchers for +5 points each. 80/110 points per squad

Veterans/Command squad merged similar ideas as above.

Running theme is making there be a lot of decent weapons sprinkled in, without significantly reducing numbers.


*If i got to bring a suppression mechanic into the game I would go wild with a variety of ideas...

I'm against auto-hits being an order. My thought was replacing extra shooting attacks with auto hits. Under the system I mentioned a single unit on rapid fire range would, on average, get 20 shots, hit 10 times, gain 3 bonus hits and then roll to wound. Two units in rapid fire would 20 times, gain 8 bonus hits. Three units would get 60 shots, 30 would hit and they'd gain 30 auto hits.

Basically the whole point is a compounding bonus the more you commit against a single target which fits the Guard MO.

Plus it's not hitting as much as wounding where the lasgun falls short the most thanks to only being S3.

In the guard, the last thing I want is explosive auto-wounding, or armor rending mechanics for the humble laser guns. This does not feel right, and would not save much time compared to FRFSRF, because they involve tedious dice selection and separate resolution. However, seeing the significant boosts to basic trooper weapons from recent codexes, I think GW should do something for our line infantrymen. Skitarii, Aeldari guardians, Tau firewarriors, Kroots have now quite potent rifles. The laser gun is very lackluster in comparison, and for 55 points a squad, I expect more from it. In comparison with other armies, it is sad that we need to rely on the FRFSRF order to make our troop worth something in shooting. Many times, the situation on the board dictates that we use another order, or we have no officer on the right spot for a specific squad. The most simple buff I see would be to make lasguns straight "rapid fire : 2" weapons. Yes, it would imply intensive dice rolling, but I woult take such a change happily. We would then rely on orders for more tactical moves rather than micro-managing numbers of shots. Get back to the fight, rerolls, advance and shoot, improved advances, doing an action then shooting normally, would all be quite nice if we had garanteed 2 or 4 shots from a lasgun.

Here's a question - if we assume a standard Infantry squad, without upgrades (and, unfortunately, without a lasgun on the Sergeant), what should the expected return for a turn of firing be these days?

I feel like, and correct me if im wrong here. I feel like a lot of people seem to be of the mindset that guard infantry is meant to be good.
I have always viewed guard infantry as the tax you take in order to take the better things. Guard infantry is really just there to be bubble wrap, objective holding, and speed bumps for the enemy while their actual power units.IE their artillery, tanks, elite units, and supporting craft do the emperors work for them.

Whihc goes back to my point on, i think the way you fix guard is you need to fix their vehicles to be appealing and viable agian. Right now, they are not at all because vehicles suck in 9th ed.

Guard need to have their artillery getting the blast rule on units of 5 or more, not 10 or more. Or need to make it so they double 1's and 2s when they are rolling for number of shots. Recall that back in the days of templates, you did not roll to hit like you do now. So back in the day, you only had 2 rolls to determine the damage you did, you had your scatter roll which would determine the number of things you hit by template, anything under it hit then you rolled for wounds.
Vs now
Roll for number of hits, roll to hit, then roll to wound, that removes a lot of dice from the pool with that one extra roll.

The other thing they need to do is give guard vehicles more defensives with bein able to ignore rending of weapons that are not equal or greater then their toughness value, or have them ignore profiling

The issue too with guard vehicles is that you dont need to kill them, you just need to profile them. A russ hitting on 5s is not a big threat, a rull hitting on a 6 is even less of a threat that can just be ignored.

I think people focusing on infantry is the wrong thing.

To Dysartes, i would answer your question this way, I expect nothing from infantry firing, i gauge them on how much firing they can take for their point cost.

I get the desire to want the infantry to be good.
I was wanting to start an Imperial Guard army for a long time, years and years.
I always dreamed of mechanised infantry driving up in Chimeras, Veterans jumping out to give 'em what-for with shotguns. That sort of thing.

But recently I realised - that isn't possible anymore. Imperial Guard are still locked into the same old T3 with S3 lasguns. But the game has just left that so far in the dirt it's not even funny. It started with 2W Astartes, then we've got T5 Orks, not to mention Custodes and whatever else.
I realised IG infantry can be nothing but speed bumps, so I went to play a different army (Tau) that let me do that (albeit perhaps a little too well now...)

There's some stuff you can do to lean into and improve that though.
Either add back platoons, or at least the blobbing up part. Or give Heavy/Special Weapons Teams some sort of protection. Right now they suck because they just evaporate, but make them useful.

Infantry should be a valid playstyle, but that doesn't necessarily mean the lasgun needs to be useful.

I'm not even sure what fancy shenanigans you can give IG vehicle. They're always survived by just brute-forcing their way through problems. T8/2+ was one example of how they brute force their way through survivability problems. They don't really have any gubbinz to ignore vehicle profiling like Tau AI or Eldar Spirit Stones or whatever.

I don't even know what they can do with the guns - a Demolisher Cannon already exists on the SM Vindicator which would appear to hard-lock how much firepower that gun can have, and by extension the rest of the turret guns.
Unless they add an "Leman Russ Demolisher" variant which is inexplicably better, granted they've done it before.

IG are in a real predicament with 9th edition. I genuinely don't know what they can do - I dislike all the options.

Again, my opinion, the only option is to make their vehicles good and buff them further. T8/2+ means jack all in 9th ed when you can be profiled by a single weapon and be useless the entire game.

Their big guns that were template based in past ed need to be buffed to be able to hit more targets base. In a world where 10 man or less sized squads are common place, rolling anything less then 5 hits on a basilisks feels really really bad when you also have to hit on 4s before modifiers.
God forbid you roll a 1 on your battle canon and are already profiled. Feels really bad fielding a nice tank to have it earn exactly zero of its points back.

One wild idea I once had for the vehicles with multiple weapons (just a wild idea, it's not completely thought through): If one says Xenos, SM etc. have better stats, Inv., -1 damage and the like because they have more advanced tech, space magic, whatever you could as well say: every gun on a baneblade has a guy behind it targeting it with the most basic targeting equipment (hence the BS 4+), so even if the Baneblade turret gets evaporated... that should not really reduce the performance of the gunner in sponson turret #4.

I don't know how exactly to implement it but just for the sake of the argument: imagine the Baneblade brackes not be BS4+/BS5+/BS6+ but instead: you have 1. the turret/Casemat main weapon 2. the twin Bolter/Demolisher Hull weapon 3. the optional first sponson pair 4. the optional second sponson pair. For each bracket, one of those gets disabled. That would for example mean a Shadowsword with two pairs of sponsons could fire at full BS until it's last wound by "sacrificing" the sponsons when it gets bracketed.

Simultanously for the Leman Russ: 1. Turret, 2. Hull weapon 3. Sponsons. Each bracket sacrifices one of those. In a variation you could also "sacrifice" your engine, so when bracketed you can choose to let the vehicle count as immobilized but still firing at full efficiency.
It would just mean that while a serious hit at... lets say a Hammerhead does such a mess with its electrics that the whole vehicle degrades (but still uses all its weapons and motorization at reduced efficiency) guard vehicle is so "low tech", that a hit in the engine deck just destroyes that without really affecting the dude ramming ammo into the breach of the main gun and aiming it per hand.



@ Infantry performance: I personally (but as you know, I have no gaming perspective, so that's purely theoretical wishing) don't expect much firepower from them. But I would love to see mechanics that leaves a serious chance to have some dudes around in the later turns without the nessecity to start with 200 because they just get mowed down. So if some kind of defense boost/recycling mechanic/suppression/digging in can be done: I would love this much more than better lasguns.

Well, good news Kiro, even with a s3 lasgun, guardsmen are just as effective against t5 orks as t4 orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For infantry I’d like to see a sort of reserve thing that’s been brought up, but just for conscripts. Just let you respawn em once the squad dies at board edge or something, would make them like 2.5 points in effect.
Maybe also if I’m being very very hopeful, some sort of way to run em as melee troops. Combat blades or something like in HH militia and cults would be fun.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

The last thing the army needs is more dice. I would rejoice if stuff like orders reduced dice rolls. So FRFSRF instead of doubling shots now auto hits. Burn Them Out! means you do max hits. Bring it down does an extra auto wounding hit on a 6. Etc. Just imagine if the army got quicker to play...

This. Any competitive players know there's no point rolling for lasguns. It's a waste of time on the clock.

Personally I'd make FRFSRF autowound on 6's to hit. Basically make lasgun radium weapons when under that order. Reduces rolling significantly.

I wouldn't mind something like Warmachine's Combined Ranged Attack. Fewer shots at higher strength. Trading rate of fire for finding weak points, essentially.

 Dysartes wrote:
Here's a question - if we assume a standard Infantry squad, without upgrades (and, unfortunately, without a lasgun on the Sergeant), what should the expected return for a turn of firing be these days?

Death by a thousand cuts. The plastic embodiment of the phrase Quantity Has A Quality All Its Own.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
In the guard, the last thing I want is explosive auto-wounding, or armor rending mechanics for the humble laser guns. This does not feel right, and would not save much time compared to FRFSRF, because they involve tedious dice selection and separate resolution. However, seeing the significant boosts to basic trooper weapons from recent codexes, I think GW should do something for our line infantrymen. Skitarii, Aeldari guardians, Tau firewarriors, Kroots have now quite potent rifles. The laser gun is very lackluster in comparison, and for 55 points a squad, I expect more from it. In comparison with other armies, it is sad that we need to rely on the FRFSRF order to make our troop worth something in shooting. Many times, the situation on the board dictates that we use another order, or we have no officer on the right spot for a specific squad. The most simple buff I see would be to make lasguns straight "rapid fire : 2" weapons. Yes, it would imply intensive dice rolling, but I woult take such a change happily. We would then rely on orders for more tactical moves rather than micro-managing numbers of shots. Get back to the fight, rerolls, advance and shoot, improved advances, doing an action then shooting normally, would all be quite nice if we had garanteed 2 or 4 shots from a lasgun.

The last thing we need is even more meaningless dice rolls for Lasguns. What we need is actually meaningful rules for Orders to lift Lasguns from baseline flashlights to effective weapons against the increase defenses of enemy units.

If I was writing the rules, I would go back to the more impactful Order rules from 5th Edition Codex for inspiration:

Some Orders are for Company Commanders (aka Senior Officer) only, while others are shared with the Platoon Commanders (Officers) and Veteran Squads

Company Commanders are 1 per detachment, but Platoon Commanders are 2 per HQ Slot

Units can be under the effects of two orders at a time, but only one of them must have issued by a Senior Officer

Orders given by Officers affect the targeted unit and all <Regiment> Core Infantry units within 3" of that unit

Officers may issue an order to a unit within 6", while Senior Officers may order units within 12". Additionally, an Officer within 3" of a Vox Caster may order any unit with a Vox Caster. Veteran Squads issue orders to themselves only.

Orders are given in the Command Phase of the turn of the player's turn.

Bring It Down (Senior Officers only): Select an enemy unit the Senior Officer can see. The ordered unit has a +1 to Wound the selected unit until the end of the next Shooting Phase.

Fire On My Target (Senior Officers only): Select an enemy unit the Senior Officer can see. The ordered unit has a +1 to Hit the selected unit until the end of the next Shooting Phase.

Get Back in the Fight (Senior Officers only): Until the end of the turn, the ordered unit may Fall Back and then either Shoot in the Shooting phase or Charge in the Charge phase. It may not do both.

First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!: Lasguns in the ordered unit count the target unit as being within 1/2 range and are AP -1 until the end of the shooting phase.

Fix Bayonets: Models in the ordered unit armed with Lasguns or melee weapons gain an additional attack when they fight until the end of the turn.

Move! Move! Move!: When the ordered unit make its move during the Movement phase, if it Advances it rolls 3d6 for it's Advance roll and takes the highest die. If the unit Falls Back, it may add 1d6 to its Move characters for its Fall Back move.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
One wild idea I once had for the vehicles with multiple weapons (just a wild idea, it's not completely thought through): If one says Xenos, SM etc. have better stats, Inv., -1 damage and the like because they have more advanced tech, space magic, whatever you could as well say: every gun on a baneblade has a guy behind it targeting it with the most basic targeting equipment (hence the BS 4+), so even if the Baneblade turret gets evaporated... that should not really reduce the performance of the gunner in sponson turret #4.

I don't know how exactly to implement it but just for the sake of the argument: imagine the Baneblade brackes not be BS4+/BS5+/BS6+ but instead: you have 1. the turret/Casemat main weapon 2. the twin Bolter/Demolisher Hull weapon 3. the optional first sponson pair 4. the optional second sponson pair. For each bracket, one of those gets disabled. That would for example mean a Shadowsword with two pairs of sponsons could fire at full BS until it's last wound by "sacrificing" the sponsons when it gets bracketed.

Simultanously for the Leman Russ: 1. Turret, 2. Hull weapon 3. Sponsons. Each bracket sacrifices one of those. In a variation you could also "sacrifice" your engine, so when bracketed you can choose to let the vehicle count as immobilized but still firing at full efficiency.
It would just mean that while a serious hit at... lets say a Hammerhead does such a mess with its electrics that the whole vehicle degrades (but still uses all its weapons and motorization at reduced efficiency) guard vehicle is so "low tech", that a hit in the engine deck just destroyes that without really affecting the dude ramming ammo into the breach of the main gun and aiming it per hand.

I've pitched a couple ideas along these lines in the past.

A.) The first idea was that, instead of keeping track of degrading statlines, a vehicle that hits a certain wound threshold (basically the thresholds where damage brackets are now) would suffer one of the following:
1. Weapon destroyed. A weapon of the attacking player's choice is out of commission for the rest of the game. (Various repair/healing abilities could undo this.)
2. Immobilized. The vehicle is Movement 0 for the rest of the game. (Various repair/healing abilities could undo this.)
3. Stunned. The vehicle can't do anything during its next turn.
Not sure if it would be better to let the controlling player choose which of those 3 kicks in or have players roll for it. The idea was to capture a bit of the cinematic nature of damage from past editions while reducing the number of statlines players have to remember.

B.) The second idea was to give some models (specifically superheavies) targetable "weak points." When a model shoots at a unit with weak points, they can choose to target a weak point instead of attacking normally. Targeting a weak point imposes a -1 to hit. Attacks made against weak points use the Toughness, Wounds, Save, etc. of the weak point rather than the vehicle's main statline. Damage done to weak points is tracked independently from damage done normally. Reducing a weak point to 0 wounds imposes some kind of debuff on the vehicle. So for instance, an imperial knight might have the following weak points:
* Legs: When destroyed, it loses its stomp attack and reduces its movement by half.
* Shield Generator: At the end of the phase in which this is destroyed, the knight loses its invuln save for the rest of the game.
* Secondary Weapon: Loses access to the weapon in the "secondary weapon" slot. (Losing the primary weapon is probably too punishing on such an expensive model).

So instead of just throwing all your shots at the superheavy and hoping you bracket or kill it, you can target specific systems. This means you're not making progress towards actually killing it, but you can take steps to reduce its damage output in the short term or strip away defenses for when you hit it on the following turn. A bit more book keeping, but theoretically adds a lot of interesting decision making when a vanilla list faces a skew list (such as a knight army). Note that the exact weak spots would vary from datasheet to datasheet. Obviously a baneblade doesn't have an invul save to turn off, but maybe you could attack its Advanced Auspex to lower its BS or something.

 alextroy wrote:

Move! Move! Move!: When the ordered unit make its move during the Movement phase, if it Advances it rolls 3d6 for it's Advance roll and takes the highest die. If the unit Falls Back, it may add 1d6 to its Move characters for its Fall Back move.

I'd add some version of "And must follow any rules for Advancing if it has any ability to ignore the rules for Falling Back".

A question that I hope might spark some additional thoughts:

What would happen if Guard got a rule that made everything (infantry, tank, flier, etc) of theirs obsec and it was based on wound count (so vehicles/*gryn would count for more than a single model)?

Obviously, this does nothing if the unit is shot off in a single round, but it's a thought I had and I'm curious what impact y'all think it might have (if any at all).

(Also, getting back into 40k after last playing around the time guard got their 5th ed codex has been a jarring experience... I miss my pie plates and the chaos of scatter dice lol...also I swear terrain wasn't anywhere near this complicated heh)

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
A question that I hope might spark some additional thoughts:

What would happen if Guard got a rule that made everything (infantry, tank, flier, etc) of theirs obsec and it was based on wound count (so vehicles/*gryn would count for more than a single model)?

Obviously, this does nothing if the unit is shot off in a single round, but it's a thought I had and I'm curious what impact y'all think it might have (if any at all).

(Also, getting back into 40k after last playing around the time guard got their 5th ed codex has been a jarring experience... I miss my pie plates and the chaos of scatter dice lol...also I swear terrain wasn't anywhere near this complicated heh)

I'm for all Infantry getting ObSec no matter which slot. Fliers (by which I'm guessing you mean Aircraft) should never get it.

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
A question that I hope might spark some additional thoughts:

What would happen if Guard got a rule that made everything (infantry, tank, flier, etc) of theirs obsec and it was based on wound count (so vehicles/*gryn would count for more than a single model)?

Obviously, this does nothing if the unit is shot off in a single round, but it's a thought I had and I'm curious what impact y'all think it might have (if any at all).

(Also, getting back into 40k after last playing around the time guard got their 5th ed codex has been a jarring experience... I miss my pie plates and the chaos of scatter dice lol...also I swear terrain wasn't anywhere near this complicated heh)

Terrain wasn't this complicated, no. It also mattered a lot more.
Can't say I'll ever miss scatter and templates, however.

ObSec for infantry would work for me. Tanks... not so much, and flyers no, never. Aircraft and ground objectives can't ever be rationalized. Boots on the ground count when taking ground.

One of the things we have to do is drop FRFSRF. FRFSRF is a 100% boost in output, while most +1TH/TW/AP is just a 16% boost. So FRFSRF makes all other orders pointless. It also hides how underpowered the guard infantry are, when FRFSRF is the only offensive order worth giving, and lasguns still aren't worth shooting (even at that 100% boost).

I fundamentally disagree that Guard infantry should do nothing. No other army in the game is required to take 6 squads (330 points or more) of models that do absolutely nothing. Ya, they are supposed to screen, but without durability, guard infantry can't even do that. All recent 9th codexes can clear a 10-man squad of guard and then charge what's behind it with no problem. And taking 330 points of models that don't do anything means guard is taking 1700 points to a 2k game, which is a major contributor to the 35% win rate. Then, only being able to take 6 squads means in any hold 2/3/more game, we can only play the first 3 turns before out screens (assuming they worked perfectly) before our tanks get touched and we're out of the game (we're getting tabled turn 3 by Custodes and Tau right now).

I agree that individually, lasguns should suck. But taken in volume, lasguns should do some work. Admech rangers and Tau Breachers do about 2W per 50 points before buffs (haven't had time to do the math yet on Eldar). Having Guard do the same seems entirely reasonable. (Oh noes... guard infantry killed ONE marine! Oh the horror...).

Furthermore, having guard infantry do nothing means the tanks have to do even more, but our tanks already under powered. LRBTs are 1) low durability 2) half the firepower of equivalent 9th edition units, and 3) overcosted for their T8 (which is the breakpoint for S4 Intercessor bolters). So having infantry do nothing means tanks have to be undercosted and overpowered to balance a 2K list. With tanks then being undercosted & OP, that leads to skew lists, which almost nobody wants.

Edit: One of the fixes I would do is make Forwards, for the Emperor! allow a unit to advance and either 1 - shoot or 2 - perform an action (but not both). I also think Scions should be able to perform an action and shoot without orders, or advance, shoot and perform an action under FftE!.

brainpsyk wrote:

I agree that individually, lasguns should suck. But taken in volume, lasguns should do some work. Admech rangers and Tau Breachers do about 2W per 50 points before buffs (haven't had time to do the math yet on Eldar). Having Guard do the same seems entirely reasonable. (Oh noes... guard infantry killed ONE marine! Oh the horror...).

Real-talk, but using Rangers as a default metric is a bit misleading. Remember that Rangers are sitting on a Heavy 2 weapon, requiring a stratagem to be Rapid Fire 2...and burning that stratagem is basically as much of an "autotake" as FRFSRF. Their gun's statline is a relic of them having Precision Shots on it.


One of the things that could 100% be utilized for Guard is actually adding an 'overcharge' to the Lasgun. Remember that lasguns have variable slides on most patterns, allowing for you to fire most of a power pack in a few shots if you so chose.
Want to hit like Skitarii Rangers? Ditch the RF for Heavy, and fire "Overcharged" at the expense of being unable to perform Actions for the turn.
"Standard" fire is the normal fire mode. Nothing to write home about but also nothing awful.

Another thing that I'm kinda hopeful for and 100% prepared to not see, because GW's designers are cowards when it comes to rocking the boat, is the ability to field different patterns of las weaponry. Remember that "lasguns" aren't the only kind of laser weapons the Guard are supposed to have! There's lasfusils, laslocks, things that are basically laser shotguns, lascarbines which are designed for assault/mechanized/airborne troops, and the "heavy lasguns" which are effectively lasguns with strengthened barrels and twin power-packs installed.

Have said before and will say again that the solution to Orders isn't to do nonsense like locking them to the Command Phase.

It's to redefine them entirely, and have some of them used as an overall force modifier called by the army's Warlord(EX: "Move! Move! Move!" becomes a single turn auto-highest possible advance for Infantry keyworded units if they use it to claim an Objective) while others are locked to a squad leader utilizing them(FRFSRF becoming a "staggered" fire for the unit, with half firing immediately and the other half firing after the initial shots are fully resolved and casualties removed but both instances not interrupting usage of an action).
Add a few smaller orders here and there on the non-Warlord Officers and you get some interesting usage potentials.

What would be the point in FRFSRF literally making you roll the attack sequence twice, other than doubling the already-too-long amount of time it takes to deal piss all damage?

If FRFSRF is to stay it should be "any hit inflicts two hits". No need to roll a bucket of dice, no need to pick out individual dice values, just quick and easy.
An "overcharge lasguns" order, giving AP1 or something, would be nice. It's already in Killteam, so seems entirely plausible.

The problem with different types of lasguns is the game just isn't granular enough for that level of distinction.
Then again, we have like 15 arbitrarily different sorts of bolt weapon so what do I know.

brainpsyk wrote:
...I fundamentally disagree that Guard infantry should do nothing. No other army in the game is required to take 6 squads (330 points or more) of models that do absolutely nothing. Ya, they are supposed to screen, but without durability, guard infantry can't even do that. All recent 9th codexes can clear a 10-man squad of guard and then charge what's behind it with no problem. And taking 330 points of models that don't do anything means guard is taking 1700 points to a 2k game, which is a major contributor to the 35% win rate. Then, only being able to take 6 squads means in any hold 2/3/more game, we can only play the first 3 turns before out screens (assuming they worked perfectly) before our tanks get touched and we're out of the game (we're getting tabled turn 3 by Custodes and Tau right now)...

Could not agree more with this - we already have Conscripts for "lol ablative wounds", we don't need both of the two <Regiments> Troop choices we have to function as unnecessarily granular damage math before the Special/Heavy Weapon goes away.

As for what to do with lasguns to make them useful...I'm not entirely sure. I kind of like the though of giving lasguns a choice of power setting due to that being a longstanding part of lore (something like, say, "Rapid Fire 2 @ S3 AP- D1" vs "Rapid Fire 1 @ S4 AP- D1"). I'm not sure how exactly that would play out, but the basic idea would be that the lasguns have a choice of being good vs light infantry or heavy infantry, with the end goal of making it so that the lasguns are actually something you want to take and use and which your opponent has to take into account.

Edit: gak, probably shoulda read Kanluwen's post before making my own General agreement there too. Also, IIRC the new Ghosts units comes with Lascarbines that are, what, Assault 3 or something? With some luck, that might pull over to the main 'dex as another option.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
What would be the point in FRFSRF literally making you roll the attack sequence twice, other than doubling the already-too-long amount of time it takes to deal piss all damage?

It literally, as I said, is to split the attacks of the unit and to allow for you to perform an Action without interrupting it.

If FRFSRF is to stay it should be "any hit inflicts two hits". No need to roll a bucket of dice, no need to pick out individual dice values, just quick and easy.

Then ditch it, because it shouldn't be anything remotely like that. FRFSRF is timed fire patterns, not just everyone firing wildly like it's a GI Joe battle sequence.

An "overcharge lasguns" order, giving AP1 or something, would be nice. It's already in Killteam, so seems entirely plausible.

Or just put it on the bloody Lasguns from the outset. It doesn't need to give them a crazy boost--just bump the Strength and AP for that shooting sequence while turning it Heavy and making it so they cannot perform actions until the next turn.

The problem with different types of lasguns is the game just isn't granular enough for that level of distinction.
Then again, we have like 15 arbitrarily different sorts of bolt weapon so what do I know.

It absolutely is "granular enough" when the distinction has to do with ranges, weapon strength, numbers of shots, or anything of that nature.

I'm not calling for Kantrael-pattern Lasguns to do something different to Mars or Lucius patterns. I'm calling for opening up the bloody toolbox and starting to add some different weapons.

 Kanluwen wrote:

An "overcharge lasguns" order, giving AP1 or something, would be nice. It's already in Killteam, so seems entirely plausible.

Or just put it on the bloody Lasguns from the outset. It doesn't need to give them a crazy boost--just bump the Strength and AP for that shooting sequence while turning it Heavy and making it so they cannot perform actions until the next turn.

The problem with different types of lasguns is the game just isn't granular enough for that level of distinction.
Then again, we have like 15 arbitrarily different sorts of bolt weapon so what do I know.

It absolutely is "granular enough" when the distinction has to do with ranges, weapon strength, numbers of shots, or anything of that nature.

I'm not calling for Kantrael-pattern Lasguns to do something different to Mars or Lucius patterns. I'm calling for opening up the bloody toolbox and starting to add some different weapons.

I agree with Kanluwen here. If you have an overcharge setting on a S3 AP0 weapon, when would you not overcharge? Really, the answer is only if you're firing at a T2/AV- model. It would be better to up the base profile. J/K, if you over charged to S4 against a T2 model, you'd go to wounding on 2s....

 Kanluwen wrote:

Real-talk, but using Rangers as a default metric is a bit misleading. Remember that Rangers are sitting on a Heavy 2 weapon, requiring a stratagem to be Rapid Fire 2...and burning that stratagem is basically as much of an "autotake" as FRFSRF. Their gun's statline is a relic of them having Precision Shots on it.

While not perfect, it is a fair & reasonable comparison. The Rangers can do 2W at 30", with a 4+/6++ before strats. Having Lasguns do 2W at 12" for the same points cost without the 6++ isn't an unreasonable ask (if anything, it's too low). Rangers do that damage thru better weapons and accuracy, Guard do it thru volume. Guard would still have far more variability, and still be lacking a doctrina/imperative type bonus, and still have worse strats. However, Guard have orders to reduce the variability and more mobility with FftE! & MMM!. And that only brings Guard firepower to just below a unit that isn't even Meta anymore.

That's why I want Platoons back. The Lt provides re-rolls to wound & upping the orders. That gives us 7-18 squads of guardsmen to screen our tanks without costing us CP for additional detachments. Individual, unbuffed lasguns would still suck. But in volume, With AP bonus, re-rolls to wound and TA! or BID!, Lasguns would just about get the job done. But it would also take good commanders to get those units into range with buffs where they are needed. But with the latest codexes, Guard would probably still be underpowered.