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 Kanluwen wrote:


Light Infantry Squad--No tripod mounted HW, limited specials, lascarbines and a lighter 5+ armor save with a bonus to moving across terrain features.
"Regular" Infantry Squad--Tripod HWs, normal specials, lasguns, 4+ save with no native bonuses.
"Heavy" Infantry Squad--No tripod HWs, expanded specials options, lasguns OR "heavy"/"shotgun" lasguns mentioned elsewhere in the lore. 3+ armor saves; stupid expensive points-wise.

Conscripts--5+ armor save, autoguns or autopistol/ccws as standard, upgradeable to Lasguns. No specials, no heavies

These are just plain bad on so many fronts

* fails to address the basic guard needs of improved output
* with all the AP in 9th, this makes changes that have zero impact in the game, so it fails to address durability
* breaks basic lore (lasguns everywhere, which are better than autoguns)
* our units can still be targeted with 100 indirect shots, meaning our infantry just gets picked up without firing a shot in return
* Fails to even understand the basic lethality of 9th, where it's a trading game. This would pump points into useless units.
* Fails to bring guard up to the original 9th edition marine codex, which is ~18 months old and already surpassed by every codex released since.
* Fails to even begin to accomplish its goal of meaningful choices, much less being able to play the game

With this, there's no point in even getting a new codex, as then everybody except the most rabid fanboys would bin the army.

Kanluwen wrote:No thanks. I'll just bin the army if any of those suggestions remotely come close to what they do..

We could only hope, as that would be the best of both worlds.

Imperial Guard using autoguns is definitely a thing in the lore, although normally listed as an exception rather than a rule.
Autoguns tend to float at about the same overall quality as a lasgun though, which specific differences that are irrelevant to the 40k scale (ammunition supply, rate of fire, accuracy, etc).

So I agree there is no point having separate stats for autoguns. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest it's better not to to let people choose how to model their units.

I do like the idea of better differentiating Guard squads though in general. I would like a system similar to the old doctrines.

brainpsyk wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


Light Infantry Squad--No tripod mounted HW, limited specials, lascarbines and a lighter 5+ armor save with a bonus to moving across terrain features.
"Regular" Infantry Squad--Tripod HWs, normal specials, lasguns, 4+ save with no native bonuses.
"Heavy" Infantry Squad--No tripod HWs, expanded specials options, lasguns OR "heavy"/"shotgun" lasguns mentioned elsewhere in the lore. 3+ armor saves; stupid expensive points-wise.

Conscripts--5+ armor save, autoguns or autopistol/ccws as standard, upgradeable to Lasguns. No specials, no heavies

These are just plain bad on so many fronts

* fails to address the basic guard needs of improved output

As opposed to "BLOB ALL THE THINGS TOGETHER!" making "improved output"?

* with all the AP in 9th, this makes changes that have zero impact in the game, so it fails to address durability

Uh, going to a 4+ save base for the regular Infantry Squad has a fairly hefty change. As does putting Conscripts in their proper place of the rockbottom points-cost bracket with little to offer outside of bodies.

* breaks basic lore (lasguns everywhere, which are better than autoguns)

Conscripts aren't necessarily Guardsmen, you know that right?

* our units can still be targeted with 100 indirect shots, meaning our infantry just gets picked up without firing a shot in return

lol, okay yes. because that's not a problem for any army in the game except Guard?

* Fails to even understand the basic lethality of 9th, where it's a trading game. This would pump points into useless units.
* Fails to bring guard up to the original 9th edition marine codex, which is ~18 months old and already surpassed by every codex released since.
* Fails to even begin to accomplish its goal of meaningful choices, much less being able to play the game

With this, there's no point in even getting a new codex, as then everybody except the most rabid fanboys would bin the army.

If it gets rid of the mathhammer crowd from one of my favorite armies, I'll take having a crummy book for awhile.

Kanluwen wrote:No thanks. I'll just bin the army if any of those suggestions remotely come close to what they do..

We could only hope, as that would be the best of both worlds.

Same to you, chuckles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Imperial Guard using autoguns is definitely a thing in the lore, although normally listed as an exception rather than a rule.
Autoguns tend to float at about the same overall quality as a lasgun though, which specific differences that are irrelevant to the 40k scale (ammunition supply, rate of fire, accuracy, etc).

So I agree there is no point having separate stats for autoguns. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest it's better not to to let people choose how to model their units.

There's already separate stats for autoguns. Genestealer Cultists have them on their Neophytes. Sisters of Battle have them on the Novitiates. CSM have them on Cultists.

The WHOLE POINT is to allow for a differentiation between "Conscripts"(IE: the Hive Scum given a gun and pressed into service) and Conscripts (IE: the Cadian Whiteshields). Have Conscripts be Auxilia, with the addition of the Lasgun also granting the <Regiment> trait and it makes a difference as to what you're seeing.

I do like the idea of better differentiating Guard squads though in general. I would like a system similar to the old doctrines.

Stop just saying "old doctrines". Are you talking about the 3.5 book, which required meaningful sacrifices for the different traits or are you talking about the watered down blandhammerfest that was Cruddace's book where "doctrines" only existed on Veteran Squads?

 Kanluwen wrote:

There's already separate stats for autoguns. Genestealer Cultists have them on their Neophytes. Sisters of Battle have them on the Novitiates. CSM have them on Cultists.

Remind me what the stats on an autogun are again?
Oh that's right, 24", Rapidfire 1, S3, AP0, D1.
It's the same stats, just with a different name for theme.

If all you want to do is add <Regiment> you don't need to piss about with changing the name of their gun for the sake of it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Stop just saying "old doctrines".

I say "doctrines" because I'm not talking about copy+pasting any specific interation of them.
I mean the concept which should be applied in whatever way is best for 9th.
There's no point channeling how much you hate Cruddance into this new book, it's about coming up with what works for 9th, not championing how much you hated something from years ago.

We already kinda have the groundwork. "command bonuses" or whatever you want to call them - points upgrades for specific things. Mostly they're for characters, but I believe Dark Angel's version is Inner Circle which can also be applied to a few units?

Since 9th operates in "equivalent abilities" for armies, take that and apply it to Guard.
You can buy Grenadiers, Recon, Jungle Fighters, Mechanised, Armoured, whatever, upgrades.

 Kanluwen wrote:


If anything, Heavy and Special Weapon Squads need to be treated like vehicle squadrons: bought as X numbers within the unit then deployed separately with a pseudo-character protection layered onto them and given a few other perks that actually make them more appealing than just loading up Command or Infantry Squads with the same options.

waitwaitwaitwaitwait you want heavy weapons squads to be untargetable? yeah, i'm gonna dismiss everything you propose lol.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


If anything, Heavy and Special Weapon Squads need to be treated like vehicle squadrons: bought as X numbers within the unit then deployed separately with a pseudo-character protection layered onto them and given a few other perks that actually make them more appealing than just loading up Command or Infantry Squads with the same options.

waitwaitwaitwaitwait you want heavy weapons squads to be untargetable? yeah, i'm gonna dismiss everything you propose lol.

As is tradition when it comes to Kanluwen's posts about game mechanics.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

There's already separate stats for autoguns. Genestealer Cultists have them on their Neophytes. Sisters of Battle have them on the Novitiates. CSM have them on Cultists.

Remind me what the stats on an autogun are again?
Oh that's right, 24", Rapidfire 1, S3, AP0, D1.
It's the same stats, just with a different name for theme.

And for interactions with keywords, abilities, etc...which is the whole point of putting them onto Conscripts.

If all you want to do is add <Regiment> you don't need to piss about with changing the name of their gun for the sake of it.

They already have bloody <Regiment>. They shouldn't because Conscripts do not necessarily equal Guardsmen or even Guard related elements.

They've never been established as Guardsmen proper. It's always been made clear that they're either in training to become Guardsmen, pressed into service locals to serve as expendable elements, etc.
Hive Gangers pressed into service? They aren't Armageddon Steel Legion. Whiteshields? They aren't Cadian Shock Troops.

Conscripts on well-off worlds might have lasguns and PDFs on those same worlds might have lasguns...but that isn't necessarily the standard thing across the entirety of the Imperium. Remember that Guardsmen get lasguns to cut down on the necessity of supply trains.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Stop just saying "old doctrines".

I say "doctrines" because I'm not talking about copy+pasting any specific interation of them.
I mean the concept which should be applied in whatever way is best for 9th.
There's no point channeling how much you hate Cruddance into this new book, it's about coming up with what works for 9th, not championing how much you hated something from years ago.

We already kinda have the groundwork. "command bonuses" or whatever you want to call them - points upgrades for specific things. Mostly they're for characters, but I believe Dark Angel's version is Inner Circle which can also be applied to a few units?

Since 9th operates in "equivalent abilities" for armies, take that and apply it to Guard.
You can buy Grenadiers, Recon, Jungle Fighters, Mechanised, Armoured, whatever, upgrades.

The problem is that when you say "doctrines", you're referring to two wildly different things and might not even be realizing it. The 3.5 book(the only thing really worth mentioning with "Doctrines") was a monster when it comes to what you could do with it. You actually gave up unit choices in order to alter the dynamics of your army, and certain things did not stack at all(No carapace with Jungle Fighters or Light Infantry for example)
The Cruddace book has zero reason to even be discussed in the same breath as "Doctrines". They were exclusive to Veteran Squads and didn't really do anything meaningful beyond "This unit gets a 4+ save!" or "This unit gets Snare Mines and Camo Capes". They were effectively "Veteran Skills" and nothing more, given the name "Doctrines" for some unknown reason.



Real-talk, but you cannot discuss "fixing Guard" without acknowledging that one of three things needs to happen:
1) Guard Infantry Squads get branched out into different categories, with different options, and different Regiments give bonuses to those specific types of Infantry Squads over others.
2) <Regiment> becomes a fixed keyword for specific "Big Names" and they effectively become "Legendary Elements" in the Guard list.
3) The "Big Name" regiments lose their current flavor and looks to become genericized into what's in plastic now.


Bluntly it's why one of my hopes for the post-Dark Imperium world was Guilliman bullying the High Lords into recreating the "Imperial Army" as a thing, but Guillimaning it up more: standard uniform, standard armor, standard everything. If we're not going to have meaningful differences in the way things are portrayed on the tabletop then what's the bloody point of doing it in the lore? Might as well just have "Guardsmen", "Sneaky Guardsmen", and "Heavy Guardsmen" all with their own kits then and a shared aesthetic to boot.

 waefre_1 wrote:
Infantry Squads in particular are already nearly the highest they've ever been on a PPM basis (and the extra .5 PPM still just feels a bit petulant, at least to me - if GW can't justify 5 PPM Guard in the current paradigm, I'd figure that's a call to rethink the apparent 5 PPM floor they've decided on, not a call to make Guard more expensive). Unless they do make everything else more expensive to match (spoiler: that's even less likely than GW rethinking the 5 PPM floor), I'd say that our current performance would be reasonable rationale to make Guardsmen cheaper.

I agree the squad price shouldn't drop, but I think they should get more effective. That means for me as a minimum that the vox rules are built into the squad, they get a special weapon for free (can add a second), and if they add a heavy weapon you add an entire heavy weapon team (for the same cost as a current heavy weapon), not convert 2 guardsmen into one.

That is in effect a points drop, but while making the squad matter more at the same low cost.
So before - Sarge (also, I would let him take a lasgun...), 5 men, Vox, Plasma, Hve Bolter - 75 points
After - Sarge, 7 men, Vox, Plasma, Heavy Bolter - 65 points and 2 more wounds

Also get the bonus of having more effective squads rather than the bare bones common sight now (which I think should be for conscripts...)

(And please gods have orders make things happen automatically, not give more dice rolls - for example
FRFSRF - lasgun auto hits (speeds things up, gives a counter to armies with lots of -1's and means you actually use the weapons rather than skip them to save time)
Take Aim - 6 to hit negates all saves
Bring it down - 6 to hit auto wounds)

The way 40k is set up presently you can't really get the first weapon free.
Either you pay for every weapon, or you get them free.

Personally, I think your individual Guardsman should be worth more than your individual GSC. This is a trained, professional, army - it should be better than an untrained rabble.

Unfortunately they don't have any real room to better on their stat card, but IMO orders should be very important and very effective. This will also encourage leading your men with officers in a realistic way.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


If anything, Heavy and Special Weapon Squads need to be treated like vehicle squadrons: bought as X numbers within the unit then deployed separately with a pseudo-character protection layered onto them and given a few other perks that actually make them more appealing than just loading up Command or Infantry Squads with the same options.

waitwaitwaitwaitwait you want heavy weapons squads to be untargetable? yeah, i'm gonna dismiss everything you propose lol.

Not what I said, but okay.

The general idea would be to address the supposed "squishiness" of HWTs if they are moved from being a blob which dies quick (a relatively common criticism of Heavy Weapon Squads from what I've seen) to individual HWTs that are harder to target without proper tools being employed. A points bump would be needed for the initial "body", but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Especially if they're done up as multiple "types" of HWS/SWS and specialized a bit.

What would be the benefit of having HWT as separate units rather than part of the squad?

It would open them up to being abused by having an infantry team hiding behind a building, with HWTs sat besides and behind them blasting away, invulnerable to enemy fire.

That's not normally a huge problem for characters because characters to either be aura points (in which case they could just as easily hide themselves), beatsticks (in which case hiding and sniping isn't doing them much good), or just generally bring a very limited amount of firepower for their points.

None of the above would apply a HWT.

Granted it has the benefits that they wouldn't suffer morale from Guardsmen dying and could be left behind whilst Guardsmen advance.

I think the bullshittery of them being "characters" outweighs the benefits.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Real-talk, but you cannot discuss "fixing Guard" without acknowledging that one of three things needs to happen:
1) Guard Infantry Squads get branched out into different categories, with different options, and different Regiments give bonuses to those specific types of Infantry Squads over others.

Why? Seriously, why? Why is this needed to fix Guard? What does this actually bring to address the current big time threats like Custodes and Tau? Or even middle of the pack factions like Necrons and Death Guard? Please be specific here.

2) <Regiment> becomes a fixed keyword for specific "Big Names" and they effectively become "Legendary Elements" in the Guard list.
3) The "Big Name" regiments lose their current flavor and looks to become genericized into what's in plastic now.

Weren't you the one who said:

I'm not wasting my time going forward playing Guard in a manner that is not actually what Guard are supposed to be.

So, you want to change how the Guard are supposed to be, but don't want to play Guard I'd they change what they’re supposed to be?

Also, same question as above on how this helps us address current top tier and middle tier factions, with specific examples.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The way 40k is set up presently you can't really get the first weapon free.
Either you pay for every weapon, or you get them free.

Sure you can. You just explicitly note it in the datasheet.

Personally, I think your individual Guardsman should be worth more than your individual GSC. This is a trained, professional, army - it should be better than an untrained rabble.

Unfortunately they don't have any real room to better on their stat card

Say it with me here:
4
PLUS
SAVE
BASE
REGULAR
INFANTRY
SQUAD

Seriously. This crap isn't hard. Carapace is undervalued right now, and we've seen a big shift with the Aeldari book. If Aeldari Guardians are 4+ saves now, then why can't Cadians be? Why can't Scions or Kasrkin be a 3+ save?
If GSC are getting 5+ saves from wearing jumpsuits, why can't DKoK get the same from a long coat, shoulderpads, and a helmet?

but IMO orders should be very important and very effective.

Or they should be tied to the Sergeant, not the Officer who isn't always there.

This will also encourage leading your men with officers in a realistic way.

No, it really won't. Because "in a realistic way", the officer's way in the back monitoring the communications while orchestrating the different elements of their force.

They're getting reports from scouting elements, redirecting fire support missions and escalating requests from their own forces upwards as necessary.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Imperial Guard using autoguns is definitely a thing in the lore, although normally listed as an exception rather than a rule.
Autoguns tend to float at about the same overall quality as a lasgun though, which specific differences that are irrelevant to the 40k scale (ammunition supply, rate of fire, accuracy, etc).

So I agree there is no point having separate stats for autoguns. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest it's better not to to let people choose how to model their units.

I do like the idea of better differentiating Guard squads though in general. I would like a system similar to the old doctrines.

Well originally autoguns were range 32". then in 2nd ed lasguns were -1 sv and autoguns were -. They will never change them now, but given power over reality I would make...
Autoguns 32", Str 3, -, RF
Lasguns 24", Str 3, -1, RF

I think the guard squads could get a lot more attention as part of the 'big' regiments. Wouldn't be that difficult. Hell in wildest dreams I would have a codex with generic rules and then mini dex's for the named ones with different unit choices and rules.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
What would be the benefit of having HWT as separate units rather than part of the squad?

What's the benefit of having Heavy Weapon SQUADS be a single unit right now?
They don't have Voxes, so can't benefit from Orders issued at range.
The only thing they do is be a Heavy Support slot.

It would open them up to being abused by having an infantry team hiding behind a building, with HWTs sat besides and behind them blasting away, invulnerable to enemy fire.

The prefix pseudo- (from Greek ψευδής, pseudes, "lying, false") is used to mark something that superficially appears to be (or behaves like) one thing, but is something else. Subject to context, pseudo may connote coincidence, imitation, intentional deception, or a combination thereof.

Sorry I used such big words for y'all. It's "pretend character protections", not all the exploity trash that you lot never seem to say anything about when it exists for characters but constantly use as a negative here.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The way 40k is set up presently you can't really get the first weapon free.
Either you pay for every weapon, or you get them free.

Personally, I think your individual Guardsman should be worth more than your individual GSC. This is a trained, professional, army - it should be better than an untrained rabble.

Unfortunately they don't have any real room to better on their stat card, but IMO orders should be very important and very effective. This will also encourage leading your men with officers in a realistic way.

Have you seen some of the datafax's...
As it is its childs play. Just change the Infantry squad list to 1 Sergeant, 1 guardsman with a grenade launcher, 8 guardsmen with lasguns.
Have Vox Caster as a keyword/special rule
Say for options
Sarge stuff
Replace grenade launcher with any special weapon
Add special weapon X points
Add heavy weapons team and heavy weapon for x points


(Oh and I would add heavy stubber as a special weapon and twin heavy stubber as heavy weapon, because I am using those reality warping powers)

But you get them looking like a better option than a bunch of cultists with better saves/heavier firepower/etc. I would go for heavier firepower to represent training and organisation.

 Kanluwen wrote:

What's the benefit of having Heavy Weapon SQUADS be a single unit right now?
They don't have Voxes, so can't benefit from Orders issued at range.
The only thing they do is be a Heavy Support slot.

You're the one that ones the HWT to split off and be there own squad.
The rest of us want them to be a part of the squad.
Do you want them to benefit from voxes or not? Or do you just want to arbitrarily split them off then add in a whole host more special rules to let them count as part of the squad?

Sorry I used such big words for y'all. It's "pretend character protections", not all the exploity trash that you lot never seem to say anything about when it exists for characters but constantly use as a negative here.

Well what the bloody hell do you mean by "pseudo character protection" if not Look Out Sir (just without the CHARACTER keyword themselves)? Because that's literally all there is to character protection.
You need to be specific and cut out the pretentious bollocks.

Arcanis161 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Real-talk, but you cannot discuss "fixing Guard" without acknowledging that one of three things needs to happen:
1) Guard Infantry Squads get branched out into different categories, with different options, and different Regiments give bonuses to those specific types of Infantry Squads over others.

Why? Seriously, why? Why is this needed to fix Guard? What does this actually bring to address the current big time threats like Custodes and Tau? Or even middle of the pack factions like Necrons and Death Guard? Please be specific here.

Please be specific as to what the point of designing a faction based upon an everchanging meta is.

Go play Infinity if you want rock paper scissors garbage. They're catering more towards your "BUT I WANNA TOURNAMENT" mindset anyways.

2) <Regiment> becomes a fixed keyword for specific "Big Names" and they effectively become "Legendary Elements" in the Guard list.
3) The "Big Name" regiments lose their current flavor and looks to become genericized into what's in plastic now.

Weren't you the one who said:

I'm not wasting my time going forward playing Guard in a manner that is not actually what Guard are supposed to be.

So, you want to change how the Guard are supposed to be, but don't want to play Guard I'd they change what they’re supposed to be?

So, you don't know actual Guard fluff and want to try to use my words against me? Coolcoolcool.

The first bit actually is more in line with the lore than the current nonsense is.
The second bit involves nothing more than retconning. It's not like Tallarn, Steel Legion, Vostroyans, Valhallans, or Mordians have models for sale right now anyways.

Also, same question as above on how this helps us address current top tier and middle tier factions, with specific examples.

I'll let you figure it out. But you won't. Because you don't seem to grasp that not everyone cares about number-crunched Paint by Number Armylists.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The way 40k is set up presently you can't really get the first weapon free.
Either you pay for every weapon, or you get them free.

Personally, I think your individual Guardsman should be worth more than your individual GSC. This is a trained, professional, army - it should be better than an untrained rabble.

Unfortunately they don't have any real room to better on their stat card, but IMO orders should be very important and very effective. This will also encourage leading your men with officers in a realistic way.

Have you seen some of the datafax's...
As it is its childs play. Just change the Infantry squad list to 1 Sergeant, 1 guardsman with a grenade launcher, 8 guardsmen with lasguns.
Have Vox Caster as a keyword/special rule
Say for options
Sarge stuff
Replace grenade launcher with any special weapon
Add special weapon X points
Add heavy weapons team and heavy weapon for x points


(Oh and I would add heavy stubber as a special weapon and twin heavy stubber as heavy weapon, because I am using those reality warping powers)

If you can take a grenade launcher as a weapon option, that means the grenade launcher will have a points value. That means you pay those points for the first grenade launcher as well.
40k points aren't structured like that anymore - that's the point.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Go play Infinity if you want rock paper scissors garbage. They're catering more towards your "BUT I WANNA TOURNAMENT" mindset anyways.

??????????

yeah, infinity is totally rock scissor paper lmao. get off your high horse

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

What's the benefit of having Heavy Weapon SQUADS be a single unit right now?
They don't have Voxes, so can't benefit from Orders issued at range.
The only thing they do is be a Heavy Support slot.

You're the one that ones the HWT to split off and be there own squad.

Do you not know that there's literally a thing called "Heavy Weapon Squad"? It's the Heavy Support slot option, giving you 3x Heavy Weapon Teams as a single unit.

That's literally the one I'm referring to in my post. Not the one from Infantry Squads.

The rest of us want them to be a part of the squad.
Do you want them to benefit from voxes or not? Or do you just want to arbitrarily split them off then add in a whole host more special rules to let them count as part of the squad?

How are they going to benefit from voxes if they can't take them?

 Kanluwen wrote:

How are they going to benefit from voxes if they can't take them?

by changing voxes?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

How are they going to benefit from voxes if they can't take them?

by changing voxes?

Sorry, can't do that. It's not in the kit.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

How are they going to benefit from voxes if they can't take them?

by changing voxes?

Sorry, can't do that. It's not in the kit.

man, you're a gem.

Obviously making it so vox act like auras so you can relay orders to nearby units isnt possible because its not in the kit -.-

 Kanluwen wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Real-talk, but you cannot discuss "fixing Guard" without acknowledging that one of three things needs to happen:
1) Guard Infantry Squads get branched out into different categories, with different options, and different Regiments give bonuses to those specific types of Infantry Squads over others.

Why? Seriously, why? Why is this needed to fix Guard? What does this actually bring to address the current big time threats like Custodes and Tau? Or even middle of the pack factions like Necrons and Death Guard? Please be specific here.

Please be specific as to what the point of designing a faction based upon an everchanging meta is.

Go play Infinity if you want rock paper scissors garbage. They're catering more towards your "BUT I WANNA TOURNAMENT" mindset anyways.
I'll let you figure it out. But you won't. Because you don't seem to grasp that not everyone cares about number-crunched Paint by Number Armylists.

We're on Dakka Dakka. Of the threads in the General chat that deal with game play, the majority of them relate to competitive play.

Speaking of:

However nothing has been able to stick in a competitive scene. Which brings us this very quandary...how do we fix guard?

This was the entire point of this thread.

This isn't about fixing Guard fluff.

This isn't about fixing how Guard plays in Narrative play or Crusades.

This thread is about fixing how Guard plays in a competitive scene.

But it's clear you just want to push your "fix" with the exclusion of any other ideas rather than engage and have an actual discussion. If you're not willing to participate in an actual discussion, I see no reason why I should try.

Moving on.

I can attest to having free special weapons, Vox, and Heavy Weapons in Infantry Squads. I've been playing a crusade and maxed out my Squads with each, and my Infantry Squads actually feel like they're doing their worth, and it's even not all that much. 3 Squads with Plasma, Autocannon, and taking the Take Aim order took out 6 of a 10 man Marine Squad in a turn, and that seems to feel just about right to me.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

How are they going to benefit from voxes if they can't take them?

by changing voxes?

Sorry, can't do that. It's not in the kit.

man, you're a gem.

Sorry not sorry. I've had people constantly throwing that trash at me for months now over the Skitarii weapon changeup which invalidated my triple Arquebus Ranger Squads overnight.

Said before, saying again though:
GW didn't repack the Heavy Weapon Team into the reissued Cadian Squad. There's a reason for that, from what the rumormongers are saying, and it's not because the Cadians are going away.

Obviously making it so vox act like auras so you can relay orders to nearby units isnt possible because its not in the kit -.-

Sorry, but why is a Guard radio acting like an aura while being an imitation of the Mechanicus' far superior data-tether or the Tempestus' Clarion Vox and neither of which do so?

Also, there's another answer that actually fits better:
Vox Network as an "overall superfaction rule" ala Doctrina Imperatives and Data-Tethers. All Guardsmen have Vox-Beads(whether headsets, earbuds+throat mics, or big bulky helmet apparatus) allowing them to get Orders relayed to them, while Vox-casters add a layer of an additional benefit to the Orders because of clarity.

If I'm shouting a whole spiel at you and you're using a headset while being fired at--you might not get all the details. The Vox-Caster clarifying the reception and rebroadcasting it lets you get the whole spiel instead of you just getting the gist of it.

Bonus!
It lets you bring back the concept of "Inspired Tactics" in a new way: more than one Order being applied to the target units.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Also, there's another answer that actually fits better:
Vox Network as an "overall superfaction rule" ala Doctrina Imperatives and Data-Tethers. All Guardsmen have Vox-Beads(whether headsets, earbuds+throat mics, or big bulky helmet apparatus) allowing them to get Orders relayed to them, while Vox-casters add a layer of an additional benefit to the Orders because of clarity.

but you can't do that because they don't have models!!!!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

What's the benefit of having Heavy Weapon SQUADS be a single unit right now?
They don't have Voxes, so can't benefit from Orders issued at range.
The only thing they do is be a Heavy Support slot.

You're the one that ones the HWT to split off and be there own squad.

Do you not know that there's literally a thing called "Heavy Weapon Squad"? It's the Heavy Support slot option, giving you 3x Heavy Weapon Teams as a single unit.

That's literally the one I'm referring to in my post. Not the one from Infantry Squads.

The rest of us want them to be a part of the squad.
Do you want them to benefit from voxes or not? Or do you just want to arbitrarily split them off then add in a whole host more special rules to let them count as part of the squad?

How are they going to benefit from voxes if they can't take them?

I don't even know what you're talking about frankly.

I know damn well what a heavy weapon squad is, and I'm saying they should be blended into Infantry squads.
You're saying you want them to get some sort of character protection that's totally different to regular character protection?
what do you want?
Of course I know heavy weapon squads can't take voxes, that's why I'm saying let them merge with infantry teams who do. You're the one saying you want them to be separate squads... meaning they wouldn't get voxes.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

I don't even know what you're talking about frankly.

That's obvious.

I know damn well what a heavy weapon squad is,

Sure didn't seem that way.

and I'm saying they should be blended into Infantry squads.

Why? Why the actual hell would you want to do that? Seriously. What would be the point of even having Heavy Weapon Squads at that point? Just make it a big unit called "Whatever" and do a Heavy Weapon Team per 10 models. Give them a 6+ save though, because "balance".

You're saying you want them to get some sort of character protection that's totally different to regular character protection?
what do you want?

I want Guard to be able to flood the board with targets, mandating people actually have to target prioritize. People seem to be laser-focused on the idea that "Horde" needs to mean "Huge Squads".

Of course I know heavy weapon squads can't take voxes, that's why I'm saying let them merge with infantry teams who do.

Or you could, y'know, give the Chimera the "Vox" keyword if you're so desperate to tie things explicitly to voxes.

You're the one saying you want them to be separate squads... meaning they wouldn't get voxes.

They're ALREADY separate squads who can't get voxes.

I'm the one saying that I want Heavy Weapon Squads(which already exist) to be divided into Mortar, Fire Support, and Tank Hunter Squads--each of which would then be made up of 3 Heavy Weapon Teams with selected weapons that are then split out and deployed separately with a series of rules giving each squad a notable role within the army at large and Weapon Teams to be given a measure of protection that is not as robust as a LOS but also is not immediately counterable with regular weapon profiles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Also, there's another answer that actually fits better:
Vox Network as an "overall superfaction rule" ala Doctrina Imperatives and Data-Tethers. All Guardsmen have Vox-Beads(whether headsets, earbuds+throat mics, or big bulky helmet apparatus) allowing them to get Orders relayed to them, while Vox-casters add a layer of an additional benefit to the Orders because of clarity.

but you can't do that because they don't have models!!!!

Hey, we're already pretending that Catachans(who had a 6+ save, per the Jungle Fighter rules) are really a 5+ save. We at least have lore that says the vox-beads are in the helmet padding.

Oh I forgot you wanted every individual 2 man base to be a separate unit. I thought you were saying take the squads in like groups of 9 then split them into 3s!
Bollocks to that, that's ridiculous. It was obnoxious when Tau drones did it and it'll be obnoxious when Guard HWTs do it.

You still haven't explained what this magical character protection that isn't character protection is though.
I think that's an important part of your master plan.

The point of integrating heavy weapon squads into larger infantry squads is that it prevents the heavy weapons from all being immediately killed, without needing to resort to easily exploitable character protection.
It also allows them to benefit from voxes and more easily get orders.
It'll be like the old platoon structure that allowed you to combine everything together, although I suggest on a smaller scale.