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kirotheavenger wrote: I see them all as completely different; gaming, painting, and reading are all completely different things using entirely different skillsets reasons for being enjoyable.
You consume each one revolving around the same theme/universe, but I don't see them as being in any way comparable.
But if it's all the same theme/universe with these activities associated with them, why isn't the umbrella of 40k the hobby? I'm not painting models, I'm painting 40k models. I'm not just reading books, I'm reading 40k books.
If you play the game of 40k but never use any 40k miniatures, is it still 40k? Are you still a 40k hobbyist when you only play the game?
I don't say that; I say they're not 40k hobbyists because 40k is not a hobby.
Unsurprising coming from you.
Backspacehacker wrote: Im the same way, but at that point i would say that your hobby is miniature painting, and you just like painting the 40k miniatures.
But if this individual is only painting 40k, then why isn't 40k the hobby? If they only have an interest in 40k models then how can it be just model painting as a hobby when 40k would be more descriptive of what that individual is actually doing.
Regardless of this, all of this "you're not a 40k hobbyist if you don't play the game" is elitist gatekeeper nonsense. It's just disappointing to see it when it's not even something GW promotes.
kirotheavenger wrote: I see them all as completely different; gaming, painting, and reading are all completely different things using entirely different skillsets reasons for being enjoyable.
You consume each one revolving around the same theme/universe, but I don't see them as being in any way comparable.
But if it's all the same theme/universe with these activities associated with them, why isn't the umbrella of 40k the hobby? I'm not painting models, I'm painting 40k models. I'm not just reading books, I'm reading 40k books.
If you play the game of 40k but never use any 40k miniatures, is it still 40k? Are you still a 40k hobbyist when you only play the game?
I don't say that; I say they're not 40k hobbyists because 40k is not a hobby.
Unsurprising coming from you.
Backspacehacker wrote: Im the same way, but at that point i would say that your hobby is miniature painting, and you just like painting the 40k miniatures.
But if this individual is only painting 40k, then why isn't 40k the hobby? If they only have an interest in 40k models then how can it be just model painting as a hobby when 40k would be more descriptive of what that individual is actually doing.
Regardless of this, all of this "you're not a 40k hobbyist if you don't play the game" is elitist gatekeeper nonsense. It's just disappointing to see it when it's not even something GW promotes.
If someone loves painting landscapes, and never paints people, can you really call that person a painter? or are they just a landscape painter?
If someone plays the guitar, but only plays rock music, and never plays classica, can you really say they are a guitarist?
You are using the skill of miniture painting to paint things you like, if the only things you like just happen to be 40k, then you jsut paint 40k, but that skill in painting minitures is not limited to JUST 40k models, you can just as easily apply it to AoS, bolt action, scale models, trains, busts to a degree.
Im not saying you are not a 40k fan if all you do is paint them, or you are not part of the 40k scene, but i think saying the 40k hobby implies the whole shabang of it. Building, painting, and playing, its basically 3 hobbies rolled under a singe umbrella. Thats why if the question is asked, is 40k and game, or a hobby? i would say its a game, that has multiple hobbies as a part of it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/02 19:25:54
My thought is that the "game" portion of 40k is the most visible part, but the bulk of sales of 40k are for the hobby aspects for painting and modeling. The people that get in a few games a year (or none at all) represent the largest market share, but have a lower spending per person compared to whales and tournament folks who buy exceptional amounts themselves.
To answer your question since GW wants to maximize sales they appeal to both crowds, with media and visibility on gameplay and tournaments but also doing an exceptional job pushing out beautiful models that make hobbyist continue to purchase even if they are not going to field them. So a little of both.
But if it's all the same theme/universe with these activities associated with them, why isn't the umbrella of 40k the hobby? I'm not painting models, I'm painting 40k models. I'm not just reading books, I'm reading 40k books.
If you play the game of 40k but never use any 40k miniatures, is it still 40k? Are you still a 40k hobbyist when you only play the game?
What I learned is it's the difference between a 'hobby' and an 'interest'. From what I've read (admittedly, briefly!) Hobbies tend to be more 'active' in scope. Hobbies/interests can be borne of the other, one can include the other but there are fundamental differences. 40k as the 'umbrella term' is the 'interest', it can have hobby components ie how you explore/interact with it (eg painting, reading, buying plastic crack). Or not.
The other thing to be aware of is people often use 'hobby' and 'interest' interchangeably when, as mentioned there are differences. Its worth reading up on.
Like I said earlier - my hobby is, say, the napoleonic wars. I think I was incorrect in putting it that way - its probably
more accurate to say 'the napoleonic wars are a topic of interest to me' (or words to that effect) and hobbies, such as reading etc can
be extensions of that interest or just interlinked. But it gets grey then - as I said earlier though I enjoy the transmetropolitan and life is strange comics, I couldn't consider 'reading comics' to be a hobby - to me that would imply I'm into lots of comics and not just one or two particular 'brands'.
To be fair in the real world, it's all academic really and kind of splitting hairs.
But if this individual is only painting 40k, then why isn't 40k the hobby? If they only have an interest in 40k models then how can it be just model painting as a hobby when 40k would be more descriptive of what that individual is actually doing.
In a practical sense they can be synonymous for sure. 'I'm into warhammer' is perfectly accurate and a fair statement.
Regardless of this, all of this "you're not a 40k hobbyist if you don't play the game" is elitist gatekeeper nonsense. It's just disappointing to see it when it's not even something GW promotes.
Oh I agree here. The great thing qbout 40k is its no one 'thing' and there's no 'proper' or 'correct' way to do it though we will all have our own perceptions. But lets face it, the wargaming community is nothing if not tribal and happy to lash out at the 'different' and the 'other'.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/02 19:45:22
The Red Hobbit wrote: My thought is that the "game" portion of 40k is the most visible part, but the bulk of sales of 40k are for the hobby aspects for painting and modeling. The people that get in a few games a year (or none at all) represent the largest market share, but have a lower spending per person compared to whales and tournament folks who buy exceptional amounts themselves.
To answer your question since GW wants to maximize sales they appeal to both crowds, with media and visibility on gameplay and tournaments but also doing an exceptional job pushing out beautiful models that make hobbyist continue to purchase even if they are not going to field them. So a little of both.
I would disagree with that, any more the primary reason for sales are not for the hobby aspect, paitning and modeling, but are for the game aspect. Its why whenever you see the new hotness come out, that model sells out super quick.
If the hobby aspects of the game were really the driving factor, you would see a lot more models going out of stock based on rule of cool, but you dont, you mostly see out of stock on the new meta hotness anymore.
Look at how popular the tournaments are, look at how big adepticon is. More people are showing up to play, rather then to enter the painting contents there.
You see multiple massive events centered around 40k for gaming, you dont see that level of attendance for the hobby part.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/02 19:48:17
I would disagree with that, any more the primary reason for sales are not for the hobby aspect, paitning and modeling, but are for the game aspect. Its why whenever you see the new hotness come out, that model sells out super quick.
Why wouldn't hobbyists and modellers also buy the new shiny? I mean, I find it hard to believe that someone who has been waiting for new eldar models for 20 years wouldn't go out and buy all the new releases... or in my case - i buy the new primaris in large part because I love the models- theyre what I wished marines were fifteen years ago. its not just about 'they're broken!'
If the hobby aspects of the game were really the driving factor, you would see a lot more models going out of stock based on rule of cool, but you dont, you mostly see out of stock on the new meta hotness anymore.
New stuff isn't always meta breaking nonsense. And As above how do you know it's the painters and modellers that aren't buying the new stuff? I dont think its the gamers buying all the primaris lieutenants out there, eh? Plus consider gw marketing- are things going out of stock brcause they deliberately limited the number of kits they manufactured.
Look at how popular the tournaments are, look at how big adepticon is. More people are showing up to play, rather then to enter the painting contents there.
You see multiple massive events centered around 40k for gaming, you dont see that level of attendance for the hobby part.
To be fair, tournaments and conventions are important - but bear in mind the hobby aspect is more of a 'solo' endeavour than a team sport. I'm 97% painted, probably have painted 2,000+ models in my time and I don't think I've ever seriously considered entering a painting competition, though I love the hobby aspect. Gw said a few years back something like 80% of their buyers didn't play the game.
Undoubtedly tournaments and conventions are huge but they're not just for the 'gaming-first' portion of the player base. 2 of my closest go to conventions to see the 'bring-and-buy' second hands, boutique stalls and for me its to catch up with friends rather than game and to get stuff - its a hobby themed shopping day. Of our close group of 5, I'm the only one who tournamented, and I've not been in one in years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/02 20:30:15
Gert wrote: But if this individual is only painting 40k, then why isn't 40k the hobby? If they only have an interest in 40k models then how can it be just model painting as a hobby when 40k would be more descriptive of what that individual is actually doing.
Because 40k itself is not an activity. GW also has a lot of bad-faith gak going on with their attempts at defining things as "The Games Workshop hobby" or the "Warhammer hobby" in pretending that other minis games don't exist.
Hobbies are activities, and by nature don't involve passive consumption - but businesses within capitalism have a hardon for passive consumption, hence their pushing of passive consumption as a "hobby." I won't call it that.
Gert wrote: Regardless of this, all of this "you're not a 40k hobbyist if you don't play the game" is elitist gatekeeper nonsense. It's just disappointing to see it when it's not even something GW promotes.
GW promotes something worse, as I mentioned. But nobody's making the claim you're mentioning, so it's a strawman - if someone paints a whole bunch but doesn't play, then their "hobby" is painting minis. Which is fine.
Why wouldn't hobbyists and modellers also buy the new shiny?
I never said they did not buy them, but if they sat there all that time, and only then went outta stock AFTER GW decided to update them and buff the hell outta them. Logically who is the ones pushing that? The hobbiests? or the people playing the game wanting to win?
I would disagree with that, any more the primary reason for sales are not for the hobby aspect, paitning and modeling, but are for the game aspect. Its why whenever you see the new hotness come out, that model sells out super quick.
Why wouldn't hobbyists and modellers also buy the new shiny? I mean, I find it hard to believe that someone who has been waiting for new eldar models for 20 years wouldn't go out and buy all the new releases... or in my case - i buy the new primaris in large part because I love the models- theyre what I wished marines were fifteen years ago. its not just about 'they're broken!'
I own a ton of Primaris as well as the models look great(well except for the ATV and Invictor which I didn't buy) but when I write a 40k list I don't feel it with Primaris. Whereas my FB lists feel much more in line with the setting. It's not due to a lack of options/choice as the models I do have echo FB units I already have.
40K doesn't really appeal to me much anymore with the CCG crap becoming more & more the focus. While1 Seasons singlehandedly killed any enthusiasm I had for it.
I still love 40k as a whole, but the game is less and less of a reason I interact with it. Lore, building minis/terrain & painting them are really what interests me.
As for a game tho, Necromunda has me covered. Basically 2nd ed & I'm 100% cool with that!
Backspacehacker wrote: If someone loves painting landscapes, and never paints people, can you really call that person a painter? or are they just a landscape painter?
If someone plays the guitar, but only plays rock music, and never plays classica, can you really say they are a guitarist?
The answer is both but you've not proved your point instead you've enhanced mine. You are saying that someone who only paints 40k models isn't a 40k hobbyist but rather a model painter hobbyist. Which is vaguer? That you do 40k as a hobby or that you paint models? IMO it's the latter because "models" covers a huge range of things whereas Warhammer 40k is very specific.
You are using the skill of miniture painting to paint things you like, if the only things you like just happen to be 40k, then you jsut paint 40k, but that skill in painting minitures is not limited to JUST 40k models, you can just as easily apply it to AoS, bolt action, scale models, trains, busts to a degree.
Cool but it's not that for many people. It might be for me and it might be for you but that's not what I would have said about myself 7 years ago when I was only playing 40k and that's not what people who are the same will say.
Im not saying you are not a 40k fan if all you do is paint them, or you are not part of the 40k scene, but i think saying the 40k hobby implies the whole shabang of it. Building, painting, and playing, its basically 3 hobbies rolled under a singe umbrella. Thats why if the question is asked, is 40k and game, or a hobby? i would say its a game, that has multiple hobbies as a part of it.
It's a needless and divisive definition though. What purpose does it serve to say to someone who enjoys Warhammer novels and discussions on forums that they aren't a 40k hobbyist because they don't play the game? What if you live somewhere remote where the only way you can interact with Warhammer is through building/painting models and sharing them via social media? What if someone only plays with unpainted models, do they not get to be a 40k hobbyist because they didn't jump through all the hoops?
Backspacehacker wrote: I would disagree with that, any more the primary reason for sales are not for the hobby aspect, paitning and modeling, but are for the game aspect. Its why whenever you see the new hotness come out, that model sells out super quick.
If the hobby aspects of the game were really the driving factor, you would see a lot more models going out of stock based on rule of cool, but you dont, you mostly see out of stock on the new meta hotness anymore.
That is probably the biggest load of bullgak I've read in this thread so far and there have been some doozies.
Look at how popular the tournaments are, look at how big adepticon is.
Both of which are dwarfed by casual hobbyists who don't even play the game. Seriously it's not even a competition.
More people are showing up to play, rather then to enter the painting contents there.
That's because they are primarily gaming events. Why the hell would you show up to a gaming event and expect to sit down and paint models or talk about books?
You see multiple massive events centered around 40k for gaming, you dont see that level of attendance for the hobby part.
Because you don't need an event to sit at a table and paint models you mushroom. You do it at home.
PenitentJake wrote: I think the OP's question is more about "What is 40k to YOU" than it is about "What's the definition of the word hobby" or "Is 40k Objectively more of a hobby or a game."
Spoiler:
Personally, for me it's a hobby. I'm a campaign creator/ storyteller/ roleplayer and that's what I tend to do with the raw material 40k gives me. Coordinating story arcs from the bespoke Crusade content of many dexes with the evolving story of the Indomitus Crusade era has given me more tools to work with than I've ever had.
I've always been a slow painter and modeler- I'm trying to improve that this year, so we'll see how that goes.
Yes, exactly.
Dude, I have been painting the same armies for thirty years. That is I guess another reason it is primarily a hobby for me. If it were primarily about a game, I might have gotten a bunch more done faster! And when I was able to game more often, basically back in Uni sooo… twenty five to thirty years ago, I did paint faster, even in grad school twenty years ago, and then I didn’t pick up a brush much until I about finished my doctorate.
Of course its a needlessly divisive definition, because the question asked in the thread is a needlessly divisive question.
I always refer to 40k as a hobby, even though i would answer the thread as its a game more then a hobby above anything.
Just because someone does not agree with it does not make it any more not right. Fact is, painting miniatures is, in itself, a hobby that can be applied to any miniature Not just 40k. Just because you choose to only apply it to 40k, does not make it any less of a miniature painting hobby, nor does it make 40k strictly painting, just like just playing 40k games makes 40k any more just a game rather then a hobby.
I my self coequally refer to it as the 40k hobby and discuss it as, the hobby.
I have to be divisive in the answer because again, the question, for what its worth, is horribly stupid, so i have to give an equally stupid divisive answer to it.
40k is many things rolled into a single umbrella, its painting, its modeling, its games, its terrain building, its lore, its story, its a whole lot of multiple hobbies rolled into a single one. Thats why if you are looking for a specific answer here, mine is that 40k is a game more then a single hobby because modeling is not exclusively 40k, miniature painting is not exclusively 40k. Wanna know something that is exclusively 40k? Playing the 40k game. IE 40k is more of a game then a hobby.
As for the the reason things sell, thats something that i dont argue or go over, i just put out my opion, and my reasoning on it, and let others take it, leave it, or post about it but thats all i say on the subject becuase 9/10 times it just goes round and round with no one happy with the answer and mods having to tell others to calm down.
Dude, I have been painting the same armies for thirty years. That is I guess another reason it is primarily a hobby for me. If it were primarily about a game, I might have gotten a bunch more done faster! And when I was able to game more often, basically back in Uni sooo… twenty five to thirty years ago, I did paint faster, even in grad school twenty years ago, and then I didn’t pick up a brush much until I about finished my doctorate.
Happy to know I'm in good company.
I've been doing monthly pledges on another forum; I twiddled my thumbs until January 29th, and then decided to get in, so my first pledge was a single GSC Purestrain from Space Hulk... But I finished it, and it completed a Purestrain Fire Team for the new Kill Team Game.
In February, I pledged five more Space Hulk Purestrains- a second Fire Team. Got those finished too.
I just finished making my most ambitious pledge so far- a seven member Fire Team of Threshers (Count as Guardsmen) and a five member Fire Team of Druhkari Wyches.
The former are due by the end of March; while the latter aren't technically due until May, I want to try to take care of them this month too, because I've already planned my April challenges, and they are connected to my gaming schedule.
Sorry for the tangent, but I couldn't help myself.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
A part of the 40k universe is the game, a part of it is the miniature hobby assembly and painting, and other parts are novels, games, and TV shows.
So I find it pointless to think of it as a hobby or a game due to how all encompassing the universe has become. I remember a lecture with Dan Abnett where he talked about how the Horus Heresy novels opened up the universe to people who have no desire to ever touch upon the game or miniatures. Same probably goes for a lot of the 40k games and potentially the TV shows.
Which is why I think 40k is a universe of things to enjoy, and not something that can be distilled into something like a game or a hobby, and I do feel like GW is sensing that as they have been expanding more and more into other venues.
I do feel like GW is sensing that as they have been expanding more and more into other venues.
What GW is sensing is that 3d printing is going to kill the business model because nobody will have to pay their prices for miniatures of equal quality as the technology improves.
I am at the point now that i know enough people with both resin and plastic printers i no longer need to really buy anything other than STL files if i really need something. there are plenty of designers out their doing their own unique versions of things i can use for any games including 40K.
They no longer have a stranglehold over the game side of things so all they have left is the IP to expand upon. that is why so much effort has been put into warhammer + along with retail toys.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/03 09:55:10
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP
3d printing isn't the threat people who are into 3d printing claim it is. Largely because it's a whole secoondary hobby with a decent barrier to entry and it has shortcomings (the best material to print minatures with is SLA resin thanks to it's greater detail over filament printing but unless you're recasting that into a more durable resin you now have a very brittle model) and generally people don't always have the space or living conditions to bring that into their life (such as tiny apartments, kids or pets all being barriers).
Backspacehacker wrote:If someone loves painting landscapes, and never paints people, can you really call that person a painter? or are they just a landscape painter?
They're whatever they call themselves. If they call themselves a painter, they're a painter. If they call themselves a landscape painter exclusively, then they're a landscape painter.
If someone plays the guitar, but only plays rock music, and never plays classica, can you really say they are a guitarist?
Actually, this one is already a thing - they'd be very adequately called a rock guitarist, in much the same way as a jazz trumpeter uses very different skills and styles from a military trumpeter, even though they *could* both do the same thing if they wanted. At the end of the day, the instrumentalist can say and define what *they* are.
You are using the skill of miniture painting to paint things you like, if the only things you like just happen to be 40k, then you jsut paint 40k, but that skill in painting minitures is not limited to JUST 40k models, you can just as easily apply it to AoS, bolt action, scale models, trains, busts to a degree.
The same techniques used in miniature painting could also be applied to more than just minis. Would we call all mini painters just "painters"? And by that logic, painting is only a constituent part of creating art, so we could just call them all "artists"?
It's a slippery slope when we start taking people's self-definitions out of their hands. If someone defines themselves as only a 40k hobbyist, why isn't that okay for them to self-define?
Im not saying you are not a 40k fan if all you do is paint them, or you are not part of the 40k scene, but i think saying the 40k hobby implies the whole shabang of it. Building, painting, and playing, its basically 3 hobbies rolled under a singe umbrella. Thats why if the question is asked, is 40k and game, or a hobby? i would say its a game, that has multiple hobbies as a part of it.
But if you don't play, or playing with the minis isn't the main reason you engage with 40k, why is it defined as a game if you engage with everything else more?
ClockworkZion wrote: 3d printing isn't the threat people who are into 3d printing claim it is. Largely because it's a whole secoondary hobby with a decent barrier to entry and it has shortcomings (the best material to print minatures with is SLA resin thanks to it's greater detail over filament printing but unless you're recasting that into a more durable resin you now have a very brittle model) and generally people don't always have the space or living conditions to bring that into their life (such as tiny apartments, kids or pets all being barriers).
3D printing isn't exclusively the realm of setting up your own printer at home. I just bought a bunch of printed Bretonnians from Etsy for a fraction of the price that GW would charge if they made them. The (Not) Green Knight would easily be around €60 if GW made it and I paid €15 and the detail isn't far off GW plastics, just a little softer (and a lot less plain untextured surfaces).
ClockworkZion wrote: 3d printing isn't the threat people who are into 3d printing claim it is. Largely because it's a whole secoondary hobby with a decent barrier to entry and it has shortcomings (the best material to print minatures with is SLA resin thanks to it's greater detail over filament printing but unless you're recasting that into a more durable resin you now have a very brittle model) and generally people don't always have the space or living conditions to bring that into their life (such as tiny apartments, kids or pets all being barriers).
3D printing isn't exclusively the realm of setting up your own printer at home. I just bought a bunch of printed Bretonnians from Etsy for a fraction of the price that GW would charge if they made them. The (Not) Green Knight would easily be around €60 if GW made it and I paid €15 and the detail isn't far off GW plastics, just a little softer (and a lot less plain untextured surfaces).
Now you're talking about 3rd party minis, which have never really rocked the boat beyond Chapter House who got a little too into GW's wheelhouse.
ClockworkZion wrote: 3d printing isn't the threat people who are into 3d printing claim it is. Largely because it's a whole secoondary hobby with a decent barrier to entry and it has shortcomings (the best material to print minatures with is SLA resin thanks to it's greater detail over filament printing but unless you're recasting that into a more durable resin you now have a very brittle model) and generally people don't always have the space or living conditions to bring that into their life (such as tiny apartments, kids or pets all being barriers).
3D printing isn't exclusively the realm of setting up your own printer at home. I just bought a bunch of printed Bretonnians from Etsy for a fraction of the price that GW would charge if they made them. The (Not) Green Knight would easily be around €60 if GW made it and I paid €15 and the detail isn't far off GW plastics, just a little softer (and a lot less plain untextured surfaces).
Now you're talking about 3rd party minis, which have never really rocked the boat beyond Chapter House who got a little too into GW's wheelhouse.
Semantics aside do you not think that might have been because access to the equipment to produce 3rd party minis (not 3D printers) was much less accessible? 3D printing was barely a thing even 5 years ago, let alone when the Chapterhouse stuff went down.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/03 11:44:55
ClockworkZion wrote: 3d printing isn't the threat people who are into 3d printing claim it is. Largely because it's a whole secoondary hobby with a decent barrier to entry and it has shortcomings (the best material to print minatures with is SLA resin thanks to it's greater detail over filament printing but unless you're recasting that into a more durable resin you now have a very brittle model) and generally people don't always have the space or living conditions to bring that into their life (such as tiny apartments, kids or pets all being barriers).
3D printing isn't exclusively the realm of setting up your own printer at home. I just bought a bunch of printed Bretonnians from Etsy for a fraction of the price that GW would charge if they made them. The (Not) Green Knight would easily be around €60 if GW made it and I paid €15 and the detail isn't far off GW plastics, just a little softer (and a lot less plain untextured surfaces).
Now you're talking about 3rd party minis, which have never really rocked the boat beyond Chapter House who got a little too into GW's wheelhouse.
Semantics aside do you not think that might have been because access to the equipment to produce 3rd party minis (not 3D printers) was much less accessible? 3D printing was barely a thing even 5 years ago, let alone when the Chapterhouse stuff went down.
Sure there are more of them, but let's not pretend that many prominent 3rd party creators haven't been around for more than a decade and where casting resin or pewter to make their minis for years before this tech was really workable.
Chapterhouse just flew a little too close to the sun, notably I believe they used actual GW names instead of adjacent names.
Even then they won half the case and forced GW to retreat to their own silly names they can more effectively copyright.
kronk wrote: I spend between 100x and 1000x more time painting and modeling than I do playing.
For me, it's a hobby that I get to play once in a while.
I think it all depends, in the end, on the perspective. I spend a lot more time doing different types of training, then actually compeating in real wrestling events. But I wouldn't say that training is the real thing and wrestling itself just an additional aspect of it. What , although this is my opinion here, really matters is what makes people happy and what brings joy to them. I have seen guys play 12 times a year at bigger store events, they never paint, don't read lore , and that is w40k to them. On the other hand there is also one of the clerks at the store who runs a paint studio service. Since the start of 9th, when I met him, I never saw him play or even touch a dice. He always sits in the corner paints. Only moves out of there if someone has to pay for stuff and if his wife or daugher bring him food. There are guys in my town for who w40k is recasting, 3d sculpting etc. So maybe mr Backspacehacker is on the nose with the description what the hobby is.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Plus consider 
