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Yes, i know aircraft cant control markers. But aircraft can gain obsec. For example, necron aircraft with the custom dynasty eternal conquerors get obsec. The obsec rule says :

OBJECTIVE SECURED​
Some units have an ability called Objective Secured. A player controls an objective marker if they have any models with this ability within range of that objective marker, even if there are more enemy models within range of that objective marker. If an enemy model within range of an objective marker also has this ability (or a similar ability), then the objective marker is controlled by the player who has the most models within range of that objective marker as normal.

The obsec rule says that i control an objective marker if i have any models with obsec in range of that objective marker. It doesnt say that the models have to be able to control objective markers. The ability obsec is what makes me control that marker, not the model(s).

ETERNAL CONQUERORS
Units with this code have the Objective Secured ability. If a model in such a unit already has this ability, that model counts as one additional model when determining control of an objective marker.

 p5freak wrote:
Yes, i know aircraft cant control markers. But aircraft can gain obsec. For example, necron aircraft with the custom dynasty eternal conquerors get obsec. The obsec rule says :

OBJECTIVE SECURED​
Some units have an ability called Objective Secured. A player controls an objective marker if they have any models with this ability within range of that objective marker, even if there are more enemy models within range of that objective marker. If an enemy model within range of an objective marker also has this ability (or a similar ability), then the objective marker is controlled by the player who has the most models within range of that objective marker as normal.

The obsec rule says that i control an objective marker if i have any models with obsec in range of that objective marker. It doesnt say that the models have to be able to control objective markers. The ability obsec is what makes me control that marker, not the model(s).

ETERNAL CONQUERORS
Units with this code have the Objective Secured ability. If a model in such a unit already has this ability, that model counts as one additional model when determining control of an objective marker.

No Aircraft and Fortifications can never control an objective.

Objective marker: 40mm round marker
Model in range of objective marker if within 3" horizontally and 5" vertically.
Objective marker controlled by player with most models in range.
AIRCRAFT and Fortifications cannot control objective markers.

As that and Objective Secured are both in the rulebook, I'd assume they don't trump, so you're stuck with Aircraft unable to control the objective, but theoretically able to force the most models in the area - but you still can't count the aircraft.

You dont seem to understand that its not the aircraft that is controlling the marker. Its the ability objective secured which lets me control that objective marker. Its irrelevant that the aircraft cannot control objective markers.

Obsec merely gives you the ability to claim an objective regardless of whether there are greater number of enemy models around the said objective.

It doesn't give you the ability to hold an objective; proximity and lack of explicit exception is what enables a model to hold an objective.

 p5freak wrote:
The obsec rule says that i control an objective marker if i have any models with obsec in range of that objective marker. It doesnt say that the models have to be able to control objective markers. The ability obsec is what makes me control that marker, not the model(s).

Underlined is incorrect.

OBJECTIVE SECURED​
Some units have an ability called Objective Secured. A player controls an objective marker if they have any models with this ability within range of that objective marker, even if there are more enemy models within range of that objective marker. If an enemy model within range of an objective marker also has this ability (or a similar ability), then the objective marker is controlled by the player who has the most models within range of that objective marker as normal.

Obsec is a rule that allows you to contest and claim an objective even if there are more enemies than your unit that is contesting it, and it is not a rule that gives a model/unit the ability to hold an objective.

Thats not what the obsec rule is saying. It says that i control the marker when a unit with the obsec ability is in range of that marker. It doesnt require a model which is able to hold that marker. Please cite the part in the obsec rule where it says that a model is needed to hold the marker.

This probably needs an FAQ.

The last paragraf under Objective markes states: Aircrafts and Fortifications are spesifically called that they cannot cotrol objective markers.

In the next paragraf on the same page it talks about objective secure. A player controlls an objective marker if they have any models with objective secure within range.

One could argue that objective secure is the genral rule and that calling out aircrafts and fortifications to not beeing able to hold them is the more spesific rule. You can also land on the other side of the coin with the same arguments, just flipping them around. (Coin, get it?) You can also argue that controlling with objective secure has to be read into contect of 'even if the enemy has more models then you' but that is very ambigius.

Anyway, send an email to GW, discuss it with your opponent or tournament organizer beforehand. Arguing it further here unless there is some information I have missed (like an FAQ) will probably lead nowhere. Hopefully GW will adress this at some point if we send them the emails.

Models control Objective markers.

Aircraft and Fortifications can never control an objective.

It is pretty clear when they say AIRCRAFT and Fortifications cannot control objective markers.

The rules for Objective Markers state "Aircraft units and units with the Fortification Battlefield Role can never control objective markers -- exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker."

I will also note that the sentence above is literally the last sentence before the Objective Secured rule in the rulebook.

So, it doesn't matter how you want to parse what Objective Secured says or doesn't say, Aircraft units can never control objective markers.

Pretty clear Aircraft can’t claim an objective, and a rule that says “I claim objectives better than your doods” means squat if you can’t control an objective with that Aircraft.

 alextroy wrote:


So, it doesn't matter how you want to parse what Objective Secured says or doesn't say, Aircraft units can never control objective markers.

Even moreso, it says

exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker

ObSec may not be worded to prevent an AIRCRAFT, but the objective rules do. The model has ObSec, the model is still excluded. I would say that also ruins the ObSec Aircraft puts you back on most models in range idea.

Look you are arguing back and forth just as I stated.

Interpretation 1. Aircrafts can't hold objectives. But objective secure is a spesific rule that overules this. (Not unjustefied.)

Interpretation 2. Aircrafts can't hold objectives. But objective secure. Does not overule this. (Not unjustefied.)

Both sides can be argued quite pasionetly. We need an FAQ:

 Niiai wrote:
Look you are arguing back and forth just as I stated.

Interpretation 1. Aircrafts can't hold objectives. But objective secure is a spesific rule that overules this. (Not unjustefied.)

Interpretation 2. Aircrafts can't hold objectives. But objective secure. Does not overule this. (Not unjustefied.)

Both sides can be argued quite pasionetly. We need an FAQ:

an FAQ really is not needed, as Interpretation 1 is not correct. there is nothing in the objective secured rule that over-rides the rule about AIRCRAFT and Objectives.

 p5freak wrote:
Thats not what the obsec rule is saying. It says that i control the marker when a unit with the obsec ability is in range of that marker. It doesnt require a model which is able to hold that marker. Please cite the part in the obsec rule where it says that a model is needed to hold the marker.

The rules for objective markers literally instructs the player to "exclude these units [i.e. AIRCRAFT and Fortifications] when determining which player controls an objective marker."

Obsec doesn't need to call out AIRCRAFT because you are simply not permitted to use them to determine which player holds the objective.

 Cheex wrote:


Obsec doesn't need to call out AIRCRAFT because you are simply not permitted to use them to determine which player holds the objective.

Exactly - to use the summary above -

Interpretation 1. Aircrafts can't hold objectives. But objective secure is a spesific rule that overules this. (Not unjustefied.)

Interpretation 2. Aircrafts can't hold objectives. But objective secure. Does not overule this.

Problem 1. Neither interpretation probably matters because you can't get to ObSec from the Aircraft because it's excluded.

Only valid interpretation because aircraft can never hold objectives

Aircraft can't hold the objective but is objective secured

Why this matters

In a situation in which the opposing player has an obsec unit on the objective having the aircraft there means that obsec is nullified and you go to number of models the aircraft doesn't count but a second friendly non obsec unit would

(If both players have an obsec unit you go to number of models not number of obsec models)

U02dah4 wrote:
Only valid interpretation because aircraft can never hold objectives

Aircraft can't hold the objective but is objective secured

Why this matters

In a situation in which the opposing player has an obsec unit on the objective having the aircraft there means that obsec is nullified and you go to number of models the aircraft doesn't count but a second friendly non obsec unit would

(If both players have an obsec unit you go to number of models not number of obsec models)

Even that doesn't work. The Aircraft model is excluded so you never get to it's ObSec.

It's excluded from control not obsec

U02dah4 wrote:
It's excluded from control not obsec

Except ObSec says

OBJECTIVE SECURED​
Some units have an ability called Objective Secured. A player controls an objective marker if they have any models with this ability within range of that objective marker, even if there are more enemy models within range of that objective marker. If an enemy model within range of an objective marker also has this ability (or a similar ability), then the objective marker is controlled by the player who has the most models within range of that objective marker as normal.

Emphasis mine.

So it clearly is excluded from Ob Sec.

 DeathReaper wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
It's excluded from control not obsec

Except ObSec says

OBJECTIVE SECURED​
Some units have an ability called Objective Secured. A player controls an objective marker if they have any models with this ability within range of that objective marker, even if there are more enemy models within range of that objective marker. If an enemy model within range of an objective marker also has this ability (or a similar ability), then the objective marker is controlled by the player who has the most models within range of that objective marker as normal.

Emphasis mine.

So it clearly is excluded from Ob Sec.

Is the aircraft in range of that marker ? Yes. Is the aircraft any model ? Yes. Does the aircraft have obsec ? Yes. I control that marker.

Again, its not the aircraft that controls the marker (because its excluded), but its any model that is within range of that marker, and it has the obsec ability.

So even though the aircraft model cannot control it, you're claiming the aircraft model can control it?

The rule prohibiting aircraft from ever controlling an objective is far more specific.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So even though the aircraft model cannot control it, you're claiming the aircraft model can control it?

The rule prohibiting aircraft from ever controlling an objective is far more specific.

100% this.

p5freak, The aircraft model cannot control it, yet you are claiming the aircraft model can control it...

So maybe do not make false claims.

 p5freak wrote:
Again, its not the aircraft that controls the marker (because its excluded), but its any model that is within range of that marker, and it has the obsec ability.

This of course is 100% false because AIRCRAFT cannot control objective markers.

"Objective marker: 40mm round marker
Model in range of objective marker if within 3" horizontally and 5" vertically.
Objective marker controlled by player with most models in range.
AIRCRAFT and Fortifications cannot control objective markers."

Objective markers are controlled by player with most models in range, but AIRCRAFT cannot control objective markers. So you ignore AIRCRAFT since they cannot control objective markers.

Breton wrote:
Even moreso, it says

exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker

ObSec may not be worded to prevent an AIRCRAFT, but the objective rules do. The model has ObSec, the model is still excluded. I would say that also ruins the ObSec Aircraft puts you back on most models in range idea.

I was unconvinced until this was brought up, but it seems pretty cut-and-dry. Aircraft are literally not taken into consideration when determining who has what objective, so therefore they are incapable of using ObSec no matter whether they would have "counted" otherwise.

 DeathReaper wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
It's excluded from control not obsec

Except ObSec says

OBJECTIVE SECURED​
Some units have an ability called Objective Secured. A player controls an objective marker if they have any models with this ability within range of that objective marker, even if there are more enemy models within range of that objective marker. If an enemy model within range of an objective marker also has this ability (or a similar ability), then the objective marker is controlled by the player who has the most models within range of that objective marker as normal.

Emphasis mine.

So it clearly is excluded from Ob Sec.

Your emphasised quote is irrelevant. it is the rule that says the aircraft can't control objectives that means the part you emphasise is overridden. It doesn't however state the whole rule is overridden

The part you didn't emphasise still applies

"If an enemy model within range of an objective marker also has this ability (or a similar ability), then the objective marker is controlled by the player who has the most models within range of that objective marker as normal"

The only requirement for this clause is that an enemy in range has this ability so an aircraft with obsec would activate the clause as control is not a requirement

Just the aircraft wouldn't count as a model because it can't control an objective

If a melee model gets a +1 to shooting attacks, can they now shoot?
Aircraft cannot claim objectives. If they can claim better with ObSec, they still cannot claim.

Though, it does seem to read that an Obsec aircraft in range of an objective gives other friendly models Obsec:

A player controls an objective marker if they have any models with this ability within range of that objective marker

It does not seem to imply that the models claiming the objective have to be the ones with ObSec. To claim it, they need a model to claim the objective, and an Obsec model control that claim. Maybe. Just to confuse things.

But, an aircraft model cannot be the model that claims the objective.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So even though the aircraft model cannot control it, you're claiming the aircraft model can control it?

The rule prohibiting aircraft from ever controlling an objective is far more specific.

I am not claiming that the aircraft is controlling the marker. I already agreed that the aircraft model is excluded when it comes to determine who has control of a marker. However, an aircraft is any model which has the obsec ability, and thats enough to make me control that marker, as per the obsec rule.

So the aircraft MODELcannot control, but you're saying the model...can...control?

There are no circumstances where the aircraft can be used to determine why controls the marker. It's completely excluded.

 p5freak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So even though the aircraft model cannot control it, you're claiming the aircraft model can control it?

The rule prohibiting aircraft from ever controlling an objective is far more specific.

I am not claiming that the aircraft is controlling the marker. I already agreed that the aircraft model is excluded when it comes to determine who has control of a marker. However, an aircraft is any model which has the obsec ability, and thats enough to make me control that marker, as per the obsec rule.

False, as AIRCRAFT cannot control objective markers.

An aircraft is any model which has the obsec ability, but AIRCRAFT cannot control objective markers, so it having the obsec ability means nothing.

If one rule says you can do something, and another rule says you can not do something, the only way to adhere to both rules is to not do that thing.

I am NOT saying the model controls the marker. I am saying the obsec ability lets me control the marker, which is exactly what the obsec rule says. There are two ways to control a marker. First is having models in range, excluding aircraft. Second is having any model with the obsec ability in range, not excluding aircraft.

This is just Pfreak bending himself into ever increasing pretzels because he can't accept he's ever slightly wrong.
When someone unironically uses the sentence "I'm not claiming the aircraft is controlling the marker... but the aircraft is controlling the marker" you know there is nothing left to argue.

 p5freak wrote:
I am NOT saying the model controls the marker. I am saying the obsec ability lets me control the marker, which is exactly what the obsec rule says. There are two ways to control a marker. First is having models in range, excluding aircraft. Second is having any model with the obsec ability in range, not excluding aircraft.

Except the ObSec ability is on a model you're explicitly told to ignore and exclude.

AIRCRAFT units and units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role can never control objective markers – exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker."

Edit: Lets try putting it another way. The ability is on the model. The model is ignored and excluded. The ability on the model is ignored and excluded.