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 kirotheavenger wrote:
This is just Pfreak bending himself into ever increasing pretzels because he can't accept he's ever slightly wrong.
When someone unironically uses the sentence "I'm not claiming the aircraft is controlling the marker... but the aircraft is controlling the marker" you know there is nothing left to argue.

No, its you who doesnt understand that its not the aircraft that is controlling the marker. And i never said that the aircraft is controlling the marker.

If it isn't the aircraft controlling the objective what is?
The model of the aircraft?
Listen to yourself.

P5 freak except you are saying that. The ability requires the model to be there to control the objective. Yet the model csn NEVER under any circumstance control an objective. You've got a model controlling an objective despite that being explicitly disallowed.

 p5freak wrote:
I am NOT saying the model controls the marker. I am saying the obsec ability lets me control the marker, which is exactly what the obsec rule says. There are two ways to control a marker. First is having models in range, excluding aircraft. Second is having any model with the obsec ability in range, not excluding aircraft.

Emphasis mine, the underlined is 100% false because we know aircraft are excluded always.

Models are the only thing that are expressly allowed to control Objective markers.

The rules for Objective markers are clear, but your arguments ignore them.

"Objective marker: 40mm round marker
Model in range of objective marker if within 3" horizontally and 5" vertically. Objective marker controlled by player with most models in range. AIRCRAFT and Fortifications cannot control objective markers."

If it helps, I think this is what p5freak is saying:

He is not saying the model controls the marker.

Instead his point is linguistic.

He is saying that he, the PLAYER, is controlling the marker, and his argument is based on:

In the rules discussing objective secured, it states that the PLAYER controls the marker so long as a model with the objective secured ability is in range of it.

On this basis, his argument flows that the restriction preventing AIRCRAFT from controlling markers is irrelevant because it isn't the aircraft doing so on this occasion, it is the PLAYER.



I am not commenting on whether this position is right or wrong under RAW (it's obviously incorrect under RAI)--though I do suspect it is also incorrect under RAW.

But if this helps prevent people from arguing in circles, I hope it assists.

If the PLAYER controlled the marker, then the rule that says "AIRCRAFT and Fortifications cannot control objective markers." Would be meaningless, as players would control the markers.

This is of course false, because controlling a marker is dependent on who has the "most models in range."

 DeathReaper wrote:

This is of course false, because controlling a marker is dependent on who has the "most models in range."

Not true. You can have a trillion models on a marker, but if i have just a single model with obsec on that same marker, i (the player, not the model) control that marker.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

This is of course false, because controlling a marker is dependent on who has the "most models in range."

Not true. You can have a trillion models on a marker, but if i have just a single model with obsec on that same marker, i (the player, not the model) control that marker.

But it is true... It is the base rule.

Ob Sec just alters the base rule.

Either way "AIRCRAFT cannot control objective markers." so you do not count an AIRCRAFT at any time. To do so is breaking the rules.

P.S. I can see you are not arguing in good faith, so it seems we are done here.

This thread is quite something. Come on p5freak, give it a rest trying to prove that up = down.

sieGermans wrote:
If it helps, I think this is what p5freak is saying:

He is not saying the model controls the marker.

Instead his point is linguistic.

He is saying that he, the PLAYER, is controlling the marker, and his argument is based on:

In the rules discussing objective secured, it states that the PLAYER controls the marker so long as a model with the objective secured ability is in range of it.

On this basis, his argument flows that the restriction preventing AIRCRAFT from controlling markers is irrelevant because it isn't the aircraft doing so on this occasion, it is the PLAYER.



I am not commenting on whether this position is right or wrong under RAW (it's obviously incorrect under RAI)--though I do suspect it is also incorrect under RAW.

But if this helps prevent people from arguing in circles, I hope it assists.

Right, but the rules for objective markers specifically instruct us to "exclude" AIRCRAFT models when determining which player controls an objective.

So even if you are arguing on a linguistic basis, the player is not permitted to use AIRCRAFT to work out if they control an objective or not.

One aspect that I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that an ObSec Aircraft (regardless of if it can control an objective or not), can wipe out an opponents ObSec ability.

For example, imagine you have 10 warriors on an objective and an opponent uses an ability to remove their obsec, while at the same time moving a unit of 5 troops with obsec onto the objective. At this stage your opponent controls the objective. If the obsec Aircraft moves up within range of the objective marker, it then forces it back to model count of 10 warriors vs 5 troops, at which point the objective is yours again.

Wrong, Jake, due to “ exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker”. As you aren’t counting them it doesn’t matter what objective control ability they may or may not have conferred on them… you exclude them and thus their ability is excluded.

Aircraft simply cannot control Objectives or count towards them. It’s black and white. No stapling together of rules will make it happen, no matter how much p5 contorts themself.

 Cheex wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
If it helps, I think this is what p5freak is saying:

He is not saying the model controls the marker.

Instead his point is linguistic.

He is saying that he, the PLAYER, is controlling the marker, and his argument is based on:

In the rules discussing objective secured, it states that the PLAYER controls the marker so long as a model with the objective secured ability is in range of it.

On this basis, his argument flows that the restriction preventing AIRCRAFT from controlling markers is irrelevant because it isn't the aircraft doing so on this occasion, it is the PLAYER.



I am not commenting on whether this position is right or wrong under RAW (it's obviously incorrect under RAI)--though I do suspect it is also incorrect under RAW.

But if this helps prevent people from arguing in circles, I hope it assists.

Right, but the rules for objective markers specifically instruct us to "exclude" AIRCRAFT models when determining which player controls an objective.

So even if you are arguing on a linguistic basis, the player is not permitted to use AIRCRAFT to work out if they control an objective or not.

(Just an FYI, I am not advocating for this--I was just re-stating his position to provide clarity for the discussion.)

Kinda sounds like a corner case at best. You land an aircraft with Objective Secured.... it counts as zero models, but allows your superior numbers of other models to claim the objective back from your opponent with objec secured but with fewer models.

Maybe... But zero chance that the aircraft can otherwise count to claim the objective, it counts as zero models in any case. And a player is not a controlling interest in an objective, models are.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Kinda sounds like a corner case at best. You land an aircraft with Objective Secured.... it counts as zero models, but allows your superior numbers of other models to claim the objective back from your opponent with objec secured but with fewer models.

Maybe... But zero chance that the aircraft can otherwise count to claim the objective, it counts as zero models in any case. And a player is not a controlling interest in an objective, models are.

As mentioned by me and others above, you exclude the Aircraft, it doesn’t count as zero. It is excluded, so your method doesn’t work. Aircraft just don’t come into objective control full stop.

I will use the relevant portions quoted below to try to help explain my interpretation of the necron aircraft vs obsec ability granted by Eternal Conquerors interaction.

The objective markers quote: " AIRCRAFT units and units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role can never control objective markers – exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker."

The objective secured quote:" Some units have an ability called Objective Secured.A player controls an objective marker if they have any models with this ability within range of that objective marker, even if there are more enemy models within range of that objective marker."

The yellow text is just a general rule of aircraft and fortifications never being able to control and objective marker.

The red text in both quotes are the relevant portions to this argument.

you can see it never talks about a unit or model controlling the objective marker it specifically states a player controlling the objective marker. With this specific wording the Obsec quote says: "A player controls an objective marker if they have any models with this ability within range of that objective marker" but the Objective marker quote says: "exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker."

So according to the rules present with the Necron Flyer having Obsec from Eternal Conquerors, yes your aircraft has OBSEC added to its abilities but, as broken down above, Obsec allows a PLAYER to control the objective and because the objective markers rules of excluding aircraft of being able to give PLAYERS control of an objective the OBSEC for the necron flyer would then be a useless ability and not be useable.

Interesting read. Obviously from reading the rules seems clear to me and even intention.

Can I ask you, would you ever argue this with your opponent or in a tournament bring this up?

This seems like if unclear email the tournament organiser before hand, because 99.9% of people will say no. If the tournament organiser said yes (you will hear 10 million screams of why didn't I know from most players) make sure make it clear to opponents before game, because it will be a mega surprise.

This game is about fun and being a mate and not being that "rules guy", and not to spring it on someone if was ruled in your favour, just suggesting.

An ob sec aircraft will not control an objective marker.

For the same reason an aircraft cannot control an objective marker, the rules prohibit aircraft from controlling objective markers.

Objective secured on an aircraft would cancel
objective secured for relevant models at that objective.

The comments that it is a player controlling the objective is completely ignoring all the use of "if they have any models...". So yes players control objectives but per the raw that control is based on models, and plainly written aircraft are ignored for this purposes. There is no other basis for controlling objectives in the rules other than through models.

blaktoof wrote:
An ob sec aircraft will not control an objective marker.

For the same reason an aircraft cannot control an objective marker, the rules prohibit aircraft from controlling objective markers.

Objective secured on an aircraft would cancel
objective secured for relevant models at that objective.

No it wouldn't for the same reason the Aircraft doesn't count in the first place. Aircraft models - and thus the abilities they have - are excluded from the ObSec portion of tonight's festivities.

The comments that it is a player controlling the objective is completely ignoring all the use of "if they have any models...". So yes players control objectives but per the raw that control is based on models, and plainly written aircraft are ignored for this purposes. There is no other basis for controlling objectives in the rules other than through models.

The player/model thing started with someone claiming they controlled the objective because of the wording on ObSec going around the model count. The rest of the quotes on player/model control is just pointing out the wording is such that the player controls - via models - and uses this language to keep scoring/obsec/Controlling Objectives in the same relation - i.e. The Player controls, the player scores,

It’s all some attempted rules-stapling-together that simply doesn’t work.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Wrong, Jake, due to “ exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker”. As you aren’t counting them it doesn’t matter what objective control ability they may or may not have conferred on them… you exclude them and thus their ability is excluded.

Aircraft simply cannot control Objectives or count towards them. It’s black and white. No stapling together of rules will make it happen, no matter how much p5 contorts themself.

I'm not counting the Aircraft for controlling the objective, so I don't understand your objection. I'm doing a plain reading the second sentence of Objective Secured that says "If an enemy model within range of an objective marker also has this ability (or a similar ability), then the objective marker is controlled by the player who has the most models within range of that objective marker as normal."

So in my example, the 5-man ObSec ability checks, is there an enemy model within range of this objective marker that also has ObSec (or similar ability)? The answer is yes, the Aircraft is within range of the objective marker and has the Objective Secured ability. As you would know, we then go onto "then the objective marker is controlled by the player who has the most models within range of that objective marker as normal", which in this case we know that the aircraft doesn't count towards controlling the objective, but the 10 warriors would win out against the 5-man unit.

Except you are specifically told to exclude Aircraft.

Exactly. All the interpretations treating the aircraft as “zero models” but applying other rules aren’t valid, as they are still using the aircraft in some way. We’re told to exclude it, so exclude it. Those interpretations then fall apart.

Can either of you quote me the exact rules purposes that you exclude Aircraft and explain how it's relevant?

As you would know the core rule book says "Aircraft and Fortifications cannot control objective markers". However that isn't a catch all of "all rules purposes", nor does it give you permission to exclude Aircraft when considering abilities like Objective Secured.

Again, the 5-man ObSec unit, when checking if there is another ObSec unit within range of the objective, would find that yes, the Aircraft is in range of the objective, and that yes, it has the ObSec ability. So therefore need to go to model count (which the Aircraft *is* excluded from being included in that tally)

Just look up the definition of "Exclude"

Since the 40K rules do not define it, we need to use basic English to do so.

That's a disappointing response DeathReaper. We have a rule that excludes one specific thing. Checking if another unit in range has the same ability isn't that thing. But I think you understand that given your response, do you not?

JakeSiren wrote:
That's a disappointing response DeathReaper. We have a rule that excludes one specific thing. Checking if another unit in range has the same ability isn't that thing. But I think you understand that given your response, do you not?

Disappointing? Not sure why you would say that.

We have a rule that excludes one specific thing.

Why are you trying to include that one specific thing?

JakeSiren wrote:
Can either of you quote me the exact rules purposes that you exclude Aircraft and explain how it's relevant?

As you would know the core rule book says "Aircraft and Fortifications cannot control objective markers". However that isn't a catch all of "all rules purposes", nor does it give you permission to exclude Aircraft when considering abilities like Objective Secured.

Again, the 5-man ObSec unit, when checking if there is another ObSec unit within range of the objective, would find that yes, the Aircraft is in range of the objective, and that yes, it has the ObSec ability. So therefore need to go to model count (which the Aircraft *is* excluded from being included in that tally)

Yes.

“Exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker.”

As this has no limiters such as “except for” we follow plain English and ignore the model and all it’s rules. Plain English.

 DeathReaper wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
That's a disappointing response DeathReaper. We have a rule that excludes one specific thing. Checking if another unit in range has the same ability isn't that thing. But I think you understand that given your response, do you not?

Disappointing? Not sure why you would say that.

We have a rule that excludes one specific thing.

Why are you trying to include that one specific thing?

Disappointing because you haven't explained how you came to your conclusion, and you still have not. It's obvious that you haven't explained what exclusion you think you are using and why it applies, is it not? I've addressed the exclusion that I believe is common knowledge, and addressed the fact that it has no bearing checking if another unit in range has the same ability. Yet you baselessly assert otherwise with no substance in your retort.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Can either of you quote me the exact rules purposes that you exclude Aircraft and explain how it's relevant?

As you would know the core rule book says "Aircraft and Fortifications cannot control objective markers". However that isn't a catch all of "all rules purposes", nor does it give you permission to exclude Aircraft when considering abilities like Objective Secured.

Again, the 5-man ObSec unit, when checking if there is another ObSec unit within range of the objective, would find that yes, the Aircraft is in range of the objective, and that yes, it has the ObSec ability. So therefore need to go to model count (which the Aircraft *is* excluded from being included in that tally)

Yes.

“Exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker.”

As this has no limiters such as “except for” we follow plain English and ignore the model and all it’s rules. Plain English.

Yes.

ObSec is an ability that has additional conditions, and over rides the normal rules for determining which player controls an objective marker. An ObSec Aircraft in range of an ObSec unit interacts with that units ObSec rule, and not the Objective Markers rules, which it is excluded from. That's simple to understand, is it not?

JakeSiren wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Can either of you quote me the exact rules purposes that you exclude Aircraft and explain how it's relevant?

As you would know the core rule book says "Aircraft and Fortifications cannot control objective markers". However that isn't a catch all of "all rules purposes", nor does it give you permission to exclude Aircraft when considering abilities like Objective Secured.

Again, the 5-man ObSec unit, when checking if there is another ObSec unit within range of the objective, would find that yes, the Aircraft is in range of the objective, and that yes, it has the ObSec ability. So therefore need to go to model count (which the Aircraft *is* excluded from being included in that tally)

Yes.

“Exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker.”

As this has no limiters such as “except for” we follow plain English and ignore the model and all it’s rules. Plain English.

Yes.

ObSec is an ability that has additional conditions, and over rides the normal rules for determining which player controls an objective marker. An ObSec Aircraft in range of an ObSec unit interacts with that units ObSec rule, and not the Objective Markers rules, which it is excluded from. That's simple to understand, is it not?

Are you using the Aricraft in any way to determine control of an objective? If so you're not excluding it "when determining which player controls an objective marker.”

That's it. That's all you need to determine. You don't need mental gymnastics over how it's not the model but the concept of ObSec that controls an objective.