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Made in nl
Deadshot Weapon Moderati






JakeSiren wrote:
ObSec is an ability that has additional conditions, and over rides the normal rules for determining which player controls an objective marker. An ObSec Aircraft in range of an ObSec unit interacts with that units ObSec rule, and not the Objective Markers rules, which it is excluded from. That's simple to understand, is it not?


Except that you're told to "exclude these units [Aircraft units and units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role] when determining which player controls an objective marker". So let's look at Objective Secured again:

Some units have an ability called Objective Secured. A player controls an objective marker if they have any models with this ability within range of that objective marker, even if there are more enemy models within range of that objective marker. If an enemy model within range of an objective marker also has this ability (or a similar ability), then the objective marker is controlled by the player who has the most models within range of that objective marker as normal.


Okay, so A player controls an objective marker if... that means these rules are telling us how to determine which player controls an objective marker. Hmm If an enemy model within range of an objective marker also has that ability, lets check, well that 10 man unit doesn't have it, and I'm excluding that aircraft over there... Nope no enemy model within range of this objective marker has that ability, so the objective is mine.

I hope that clears it up for you, but I doubt it will.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/16 12:40:35


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

There’s not actually any doubt here, just people trying to find unintended advantage. Luckily the wording of the rule precludes their extrapolation working, but it appears we’re at that point in the thread where blinkers go on and people bark the same thing til thread lock. Nothing new is being said.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





St. Louis, Missouri USA

If everyone wearing a hat gets a high five except Timmy, then Timmy puts on a hat, Timmy still doesn't get a high five.

Timmy is excluded from high fives with or without a hat.

 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

JakeSiren wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
That's a disappointing response DeathReaper. We have a rule that excludes one specific thing. Checking if another unit in range has the same ability isn't that thing. But I think you understand that given your response, do you not?
Disappointing? Not sure why you would say that.

We have a rule that excludes one specific thing.

Why are you trying to include that one specific thing?
Disappointing because you haven't explained how you came to your conclusion, and you still have not.

I have though, it is in the definition of excluded. ("AIRCRAFT... cannot control objective markers." this is saying to exclude AIRCRAFT)

It's obvious that you haven't explained what exclusion you think you are using and why it applies, is it not? I've addressed the exclusion that I believe is common knowledge, and addressed the fact that it has no bearing checking if another unit in range has the same ability. Yet you baselessly assert otherwise with no substance in your retort.
We are specifically told to exclude Aircraft for control of Objectives.

Checking if another unit in range for control of the objective is against the rules if you are trying to check for an AIRCRAFT, as "AIRCRAFT... cannot control objective markers."

You can not check if AIRCRAFT are in range, because they "cannot control objective markers"

The Objective marker rules make it clear that Objective markers are controlled by player with most models in range, excluding AIRCRAFT. to try to use ObSec from an AIRCRAFT to control an Objective marker is expressly forbidden.

Objective marker: 40mm round marker
Model in range of objective marker if within 3" horizontally and 5" vertically.
Objective marker controlled by player with most models in range.
AIRCRAFT and Fortifications cannot control objective markers.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




@Slipspace and M0ff3l,
This is a simple case of direct vs indirect. The aircraft is not directly determining which player controls an objective marker. It's directly interfering with an enemy unit's ObSec ability (which it's not excluded from doing) which in turn means the Aircraft indirectly affects who controls an objective maker.

Consider when an Aircraft is sitting on top of an objective marker directly interferes with an enemy's movement so it indirectly means they can't control an objective marker. This is exactly the same, the Aircraft directly interferes with an enemy's ability to do something, and in turn indirectly affects who controls the objective maker.

@deviantduck, thanks for the false equivalent. This is why we use the rules in a rules discussion.


@DeathReaper,
DeathReaper wrote:You can not check if AIRCRAFT are in range, because they "cannot control objective markers"
Being in range of something and being in control are two completely different concepts. You are not excluded from checking if an AIRCRAFT is within range of an objective. It would be unwise for a person to excluded more than has been expressly stated by the exclusion.

DeathReaper wrote:The Objective marker rules make it clear that Objective markers are controlled by player with most models in range, excluding AIRCRAFT. to try to use ObSec from an AIRCRAFT to control an Objective marker is expressly forbidden.
The Aircraft isn't trying to control the objective though. It's interfering with an enemy unit's ObSec ability, which it's not excluded from doing. I'll refer you to my response above to Slipspace and M0ff3l about direct vs indirect.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

JakeSiren wrote:

@DeathReaper,
DeathReaper wrote:You can not check if AIRCRAFT are in range, because they "cannot control objective markers"
Being in range of something and being in control are two completely different concepts. You are not excluded from checking if an AIRCRAFT is within range of an objective. It would be unwise for a person to excluded more than has been expressly stated by the exclusion.

DeathReaper wrote:The Objective marker rules make it clear that Objective markers are controlled by player with most models in range, excluding AIRCRAFT. to try to use ObSec from an AIRCRAFT to control an Objective marker is expressly forbidden.
The Aircraft isn't trying to control the objective though. It's interfering with an enemy unit's ObSec ability, which it's not excluded from doing. I'll refer you to my response above to Slipspace and M0ff3l about direct vs indirect.
Being in range of something and being in control are two completely different concepts if they werent both talking about control of an objective. Aircraft ist trying to control the objective because you are trying to use ObSec from the AIRCRAFT to control the Objective, which can not be done.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in nl
Deadshot Weapon Moderati






Objective Secured is a rule used to determine who controls an objective. Aircraft are excluded when determining who controls an objective.

Objective Secured does not have a "second ability" to turn off ObSec on other units, its all part of the same rule used to determine who controls an objective, ergo Aircraft can not be counted for any part of it.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




@DeathReaper and M0ff3l,
The Aicraft isn't determining who controls the objective though, and I'm not claiming it does.

As you would both know, Objective Secure is an ability that over rides the default way to determine who controls the objective. The rules for ObSec say that you determine who controls the objective either by method A (you control it regardless of number of enemy models), or, if a condition is met, by method B instead (number of models in range).

I don't believe the exclusion on "can't control an objective" is sufficient to invalidate the Aircraft from the ObSec condition check (is there an enemy unit with ObSec in range of the objective marker?)
   
Made in nl
Deadshot Weapon Moderati






When you check who controls which objective, yes or no, are you "determining which player controls an objective marker"?

Doesn't matter if the units in question have obsec or not, you are still determining which player controls an objective marker right?

AIRCRAFT units and units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role can never control objective markers – exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker.


Think of it like the shooting phase, you go through different steps. In this case checking if you have any obsec units is step one, checking if the opponent has any obsec units is step two, but because you are currently determining who controls an objective you are told to exclude aircraft.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/16 22:20:54


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




I see what you are saying M0ff3l, however I disagree. To me ObSec is about determining which controlling method to use, which is distinct from the determination itself.
   
Made in nl
Deadshot Weapon Moderati






Objective Secured literally starts with: A player controls an objective marker if...

It's not about determining which method to use, its telling you how to determine who controls the objective.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 M0ff3l wrote:
Objective Secured literally starts with: A player controls an objective marker if...

It's not about determining which method to use, its telling you how to determine who controls the objective.
When we are told how to do something, that's a method. Which method do we use? Well that depends on if there is an enemy ObSec unit in range of an objective.

In the default rules, how do you determine which player controls an objective marker? Answer: "a player controls an objective maker while they have more models within range of it than their opponent does". So when we talk about Aircraft, and how they "exclude these units when determining which player controls and objective maker", that's precisely talking about which player has more models within range of the marker and excluding their Aircraft. Anything else is an incorrect extrapolation of the exception.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

We use the method that excludes Aircraft, as that is what the Objective markers rules say to do.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 DeathReaper wrote:
We use the method that excludes Aircraft, as that is what the Objective markers rules say to do.
That's an odd way to agree with my second paragraph, but I'll take it.
   
Made in nl
Deadshot Weapon Moderati






You can't skip the first part of obsec to fit your narrative.

Yes if the second part was separate, maybe it would work with aircraft. However, the first part will always come first, you can't go to a rule and start halfway through. ObSec is a rule about determining who controls an objective, in such determinations you exclude aircraft, that means you exclude aircraft for all purposes within that rule.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Do we agree that the Aircraft has the ObSec ability in the first place, and that it can be in range of an Objective?

My point has nothing with how the Aircraft may utilise it's own instance of the ObSec ability, and is certainly not about starting half way though an ability.

Rather this is fully about how the other ObSec unit utilises their ability. When that unit uses their ObSec ability there is a check, is there an enemy unit within range of an Objective that has the ObSec ability? I contend that yes, an Aircraft with ObSec in range of an objective fulfills these conditions, and as of such the objective marker is controlled by the player who has the most models within range of that objective marker as normal. The exclusion only exists for the model count, and no for any other rules purposes.
   
Made in nl
Deadshot Weapon Moderati






I know exactly what you are trying to say. I'm just trying to tell you that ObSec is a rule to determine who controls an objective, you go through some steps (first check if you have obsec near an objective, then check if any enemy models have obsec near that objective etc.) However you are told to exclude aircraft when determining who controls an objective.

And yeah, there is an aircraft with obsec in range of that objective, that doesn't stop it from being excluded when determining who controls an objective. The exclusion is not just model count, it's to be excluded "when determining who controls an objective".

If you are taking the aircraft into account while you are determining who controls an objective (which you are doing by saying it hinders a different units obsec), you are breaking this rule.

Let me use a simple metaphor:

You are told to select what type of cake to order. You are told to exclude lactose intollorant people.

You have to check if anyone has a peanut allergy, if so you can't order a peanut butter cake. Timmy is lactose intollorant and has a peanut allergy.

Do you ask Timmy about his peanut allergy?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/17 09:05:55


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




I think we fundamentally disagree with what the exclusion does and doesn't actually include or influence. I provided my reasoning on why I believe it to be for model count purposes, and you have provided your reasoning for why it's more than that. The rule outcomes vary as a result of this difference. Yet I think neither of us are convinced of the others reasoning. I'm happy to leave it here as I feel further discussion will likely rehash the same points.
   
Made in nl
Deadshot Weapon Moderati






Sure. I wish you luck trying to argue this if it ever comes up in a game.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yep, I disagree with Jake as well
It is absolutely in range, but you cannot use the aircraft to determine who controls an objective. Period. The objective secured rule is a rule that determines who controls an objective. You cannot use this rule.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

JakeSiren wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
We use the method that excludes Aircraft, as that is what the Objective markers rules say to do.
That's an odd way to agree with my second paragraph, but I'll take it.
If you thought I agreed, you did not understand what I wrote.

As Nos said, The Aircraft with ObSec is in range, but you cannot use Aircraft to determine who controls an objective. Ob Sec lets you determine who controls an objective. So Ob Sec from an Aircraft can not be used.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





JakeSiren wrote:


ObSec is an ability that has additional conditions, and over rides the normal rules for determining which player controls an objective marker. An ObSec Aircraft in range of an ObSec unit interacts with that units ObSec rule, and not the Objective Markers rules, which it is excluded from. That's simple to understand, is it not?


The abilities on an excluded model are excluded.

AIRCRAFT units and units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role can never control objective markers – exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker.


It doesn't say skip counting the model, it says exclude it from determining control - so you exclude it from everything related to determining control up to and including its abilities - like Objective Secured.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in jp
Drone without a Controller




So under the rules of this forum.
"Conflicts With Another Rule
If you've provided a set of premises that support your argument, but they are in conflict with another rule, your argument will not hold. It's important to remember to "Break No Rule"."

That said if in the objective markers rules it states to exclude aircraft in cotrol of objectives and in objective secured it gives the unit, the aircraft in question, the ability to take control of objectives and as you cannot be in conflict with any of these rules, thus the aircraft would not be allowed to contest objective control with the ability objective secured.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




I was going to leave this, but seeing as there are so many passionate posters, I feel it's only fair to reciprocate the effort that everyone has made.

@M0ff3l,
Not too much of a risk of that. Chaos Daemons aren't know for their aircraft.

@nosferatu1001,
If you re-read my comments, I am not using the aircraft to determine who controls the objective (To quote myself from above: how do you determine which player controls an objective marker? Answer: "a player controls an objective maker while they have more models within range of it than their opponent does"). The condition on the ObSec rule (range + enemy unit with ObSec) is not a part of determining who controls the objective.

@DeathReaper,
To be honest, your response ignored the context of what I had written, and was in essence, not actually objecting to anything. I responded in kind. Maybe rather than trying for witty one liners, you explain yourself and provide reasoning. Not just for the person you are conversing with, but for anyone else who is reading the thread.

@Breton,
If you read later in the thread, you can see where I addressed this very concern to M0ff3l. The exclusion only applies to what is outlined as "determining control" in the "objective makers" header, which is 100% model count. *That* is what the Aircraft is excluded from. Anything else is an incorrect extrapolation.

@FunkAztec,
I'm not even suggesting the Aircraft is controlling the objective. I'm saying that if you have an ObSec unit on an Objective, and an enemy Aircraft with ObSec comes up to the objective, then when you check your ObSec unit, that fulfills the condition on their ObSec ability of "If an enemy model within range of an objective marker also has this ability (or similar ability)".
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





JakeSiren wrote:


@Breton,
If you read later in the thread, you can see where I addressed this very concern to M0ff3l. The exclusion only applies to what is outlined as "determining control" in the "objective makers" header, which is 100% model count. *That* is what the Aircraft is excluded from. Anything else is an incorrect extrapolation.

AIRCRAFT units and units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role can never control objective markers – exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker.

A player controls an objective marker if they have any models with this ability


Sounds to me like Objective Secured is part of "Determining Control" The Model is excluded, the ability is excluded.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Breton, this is basically the same argument that M0ff3l put forwards. I'ld rather not repeat the whole thread again. I'm sure other readers can make up their mind without recycling the same discussion.

In short, I find the argument unconvincing as you are not reading the exclusion in context. Maybe include the rest of the paragraph where it talks about how controlling an objective is based on model count - this is what Aircraft are excluded from participating in. Extrapolating it for other rules purposes is incorrect. There are many other situations where an Aircraft indirectly influences who controls an objective (think shooting, movement blocking, etc), yet I doubt you would try to apply this exclusion to those situations because it's absurd. An ObSec Aircraft forcing an ObSec unit to go back to model count for determining who controls an Objective is just another indirect way that the Aircraft can influence who controls an objective.

Unless you can present something that hasn't yet been discussed by others, I don't see the benefit in rehashing this any further.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





JakeSiren wrote:
Breton, this is basically the same argument that M0ff3l put forwards. I'ld rather not repeat the whole thread again. I'm sure other readers can make up their mind without recycling the same discussion.

In short, I find the argument unconvincing as you are not reading the exclusion in context. Maybe include the rest of the paragraph where it talks about how controlling an objective is based on model count - this is what Aircraft are excluded from participating in. Extrapolating it for other rules purposes is incorrect. There are many other situations where an Aircraft indirectly influences who controls an objective (think shooting, movement blocking, etc), yet I doubt you would try to apply this exclusion to those situations because it's absurd. An ObSec Aircraft forcing an ObSec unit to go back to model count for determining who controls an Objective is just another indirect way that the Aircraft can influence who controls an objective.

Unless you can present something that hasn't yet been discussed by others, I don't see the benefit in rehashing this any further.


Which is why you're... rehashing it?

Its pretty simple. Aircraft are excluded. There's more to "determining control" than counting despite your unsubstantiated claim. That's the whole thrust of the premise Objective Secured doesn't require a model count if its just the aircraft. Objective Secured and count (or modified count with some abilities) within distance, and Battlefield Role all apply. And no ObSec is not indirect. Its direct.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Breton wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
Breton, this is basically the same argument that M0ff3l put forwards. I'ld rather not repeat the whole thread again. I'm sure other readers can make up their mind without recycling the same discussion.

In short, I find the argument unconvincing as you are not reading the exclusion in context. Maybe include the rest of the paragraph where it talks about how controlling an objective is based on model count - this is what Aircraft are excluded from participating in. Extrapolating it for other rules purposes is incorrect. There are many other situations where an Aircraft indirectly influences who controls an objective (think shooting, movement blocking, etc), yet I doubt you would try to apply this exclusion to those situations because it's absurd. An ObSec Aircraft forcing an ObSec unit to go back to model count for determining who controls an Objective is just another indirect way that the Aircraft can influence who controls an objective.

Unless you can present something that hasn't yet been discussed by others, I don't see the benefit in rehashing this any further.


Which is why you're... rehashing it?

Its pretty simple. Aircraft are excluded. There's more to "determining control" than counting despite your unsubstantiated claim. That's the whole thrust of the premise Objective Secured doesn't require a model count if its just the aircraft. Objective Secured and count (or modified count with some abilities) within distance, and Battlefield Role all apply. And no ObSec is not indirect. Its direct.
I was stating my reasoning in brief for your convenience as I presumed you didn't read the whole thread (notice how I used the word further). Otherwise I don't understand why you would have put forwards the same argument that has already been discussed and remains unconvincing.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





JakeSiren wrote:
I was stating my reasoning in brief for your convenience as I presumed you didn't read the whole thread (notice how I used the word further). Otherwise I don't understand why you would have put forwards the same argument that has already been discussed and remains unconvincing.


It seems convincing to a lot of people

Objective Secured wrote:A player controls an objective marker if they have any models with this ability within range of that objective marker


Objective Markers wrote: AIRCRAFT units and units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role can never control objective markers – exclude these units when determining which player controls an objective marker.
Objective Secured is part of determining control, and aircraft are excluded from determining control. It doesn't say ignore these models when counting like you claimed. It says when determining. You exclude the unit, you exclude the ability.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

JakeSiren, the argument seems only to be unconvincing to you. Notice the number of people disagreeing with you? That’s called consensus. ;-)

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
 
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