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I want to make sure I'm understanding Battle Focus correctly. Here's the relevant bit of the rule:

In your Shooting phase, after this unit has finished making its attacks, unless it Fell Back or Advanced this turn, this unit can make a Battle Focus move

My initial take on this was carried over from how the Fire and Fade stratagem worked and I have been playing it as:

-The unit has to make a shooting attack in order to make a Battle Focus move
-The Battle Focus move is resolved immediately, before shooting with another unit

However, I have seen the argument made that a unit doesn't have to make attacks to have "finished making its attacks". I would probably be uncomfortable trying to make that argument in real life.
The rule also doesn't seem to say the Battle Focus move is made immediately, just at some point "after this unit has finished making its attacks". So it could be argued that Battle Focus moves are dealt with like this:

-Resolve all your shooting
-Before the end of the shooting phase, do a 2nd movement phase where you make Battle Focus moves with any units that have the rule, as long as they didn't Fall Back or Advance.


Which is it? Or is it something in between?

Select unit

Declare shooting attacks or null shooting

Resolve shooting

Resolve battle focus unless it advanced or fellback

Select next unit

...

U02dah4 wrote:
Select unit

Declare shooting attacks or null shooting

Resolve shooting

Resolve battle focus unless it advanced or fellback

Select next unit

...

So if I shoot with some Dire Avengers, then shoot with some Jetbikes, then go back to try and Battle Focus the Avengers, you would say that's not allowed? It's still "In your Shooting phase" and "after this unit has finished making it's attacks" is it not?

You need to finish making attacks, which means you need to shoot something. Not shooting with a unit and then making a battle focus move is not allowed. You cannot finish something that you didnt start. There is nothing in the rule about timing. You can shoot your entire army and use battle focus move after all units have finished their attacks.

I would argue that you don't have to shoot to be finished shooting. Otherwise Tau would never finish their psychic phase. At worst all that would be needed is the ability to shoot. Whether you shoot or not is irrelevant to finishing making attacks.

Did you make an attack? Yes, then you are finished making your attacks.

Did you make an attack? No, then you are finished making your attacks.

You are finished making your attacks when you can not or do not have any attacks left to make.

SHOOTING PHASE
Start your Shooting phase by selecting one eligible unit from your army to shoot with. An eligible unit is one that has one or more models equipped with ranged weapons. Units that Advanced this turn, and units that Fell Back (other than TITANIC units) this turn are not eligible. If you have no eligible units, your Shooting phase ends. After you have shot with one of your eligible units, you can then select another of your eligible units to shoot with, and so on, until you have shot with as many of your units as you wish.

You cannot make a battle focus move in the shooting phase when you didnt start your shooting phase. No shooting phase, no battle move, because battle move happens in your shooting phase. The shooting phase starts by selecting one eligible unit from your army to shoot with. When a unit shoots, select targets then resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.

 p5freak wrote:

SHOOTING PHASE
Start your Shooting phase by selecting one eligible unit from your army to shoot with. An eligible unit is one that has one or more models equipped with ranged weapons. Units that Advanced this turn, and units that Fell Back (other than TITANIC units) this turn are not eligible. If you have no eligible units, your Shooting phase ends. After you have shot with one of your eligible units, you can then select another of your eligible units to shoot with, and so on, until you have shot with as many of your units as you wish.

You cannot make a battle focus move in the shooting phase when you didnt start your shooting phase. No shooting phase, no battle move, because battle move happens in your shooting phase. The shooting phase starts by selecting one eligible unit from your army to shoot with. When a unit shoots, select targets then resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.

But you can select one eligible unit from your army to shoot with, and only use a grenade, because you can "resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons" then that unit "has finished making its attacks"

Heres another question: Why would you not just advance with the unit if you werent gonna shoot it anyway?

I get that theres times when you were planning on shooting something and it mabey died early due to rolling hot with another unit, but that should rarely ever happen.

So, if a unit was never planning to shoot, why would it wait to battle focus, when it could have just rolled an advance to begin with?

1) you forgot to advance it

2) you changed your mind after the movement phase

3) your opponent did something unexpected that changed things e.g. pulled off there own shooting attack when they died and took you off an objective


As to the other problem "after this unit has finished making its attacks" is after this unit it has made its attacks. not after the next unit has made its attacks or at any time you like in the phase.

If you select another unit and finish its shots you are now after that units attacks and it is too late to move the original unit

If it wanted you to do it at the end of the shooting phase it would say at the end of the shooting phase

AFTER = DIRECTLY AFTER

The alternate definition of after the open definition breaks the game lets look at some other instances.

In this case it doesn't specify this battle round so if your going to use a broad definition of after if I fired it last battle round but am ineligible to shoot this battle round I can still do it because its in my shooting phase and it's after last battlerounds shooting.

or how about deployment

"If both players have units with abilities that allow them to be set up after both armies have deployed, the players must roll off after all
other units have been set up and alternate setting up these units, starting with the winner."

So I'm going to take the open-ended definition and role off to deploy infiltrators after turn 5 finish's because turn 5 is after both players have deployed and I don't have any infiltrators and until I roll off my opponent can't deploy them

The command reroll stratagem says "after you have made a hit roll...... Reroll that roll, test or saving throw". So maybe I will reroll that invul save from 2 turns ago that didn't matter then but kind of does now.

In short open ended breaks the game therefore it is directly after in GW usage

 p5freak wrote:

SHOOTING PHASE
Start your Shooting phase by selecting one eligible unit from your army to shoot with. An eligible unit is one that has one or more models equipped with ranged weapons. Units that Advanced this turn, and units that Fell Back (other than TITANIC units) this turn are not eligible. If you have no eligible units, your Shooting phase ends. After you have shot with one of your eligible units, you can then select another of your eligible units to shoot with, and so on, until you have shot with as many of your units as you wish.

You cannot make a battle focus move in the shooting phase when you didnt start your shooting phase. No shooting phase, no battle move, because battle move happens in your shooting phase. The shooting phase starts by selecting one eligible unit from your army to shoot with. When a unit shoots, select targets then resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.

This was FAQed last edition and it looks like they need to do so again. From the WARHAMMER 40,000 RULEBOOK Official Update Version 1.6 (8th edition)...

Q: Can I ever skip a phase, or part of a phase? For example, if my army contains no Psykers, can I skip my Psychic phase?

A: No. You must play out all of the phases in a turn, and all parts of each phase. In the example you give, your opponent may have rules or Stratagems that are used in your Psychic phase, and so you cannot skip it

I see no reason to play it differently in this edition as there are no clear rules that say we skip a phase just because you're not going to take any actions in that phase due to the reasons listed in the previous FAQ I quoted.

Does not need an FAQ, you simply can not skip a phase. If anyone thinks they can skip a phase, they would need a rules quote allowing them to do so.

However none exist.

Yes its clear you can't skip a phase except colloquially as agreement where both players have no actions e.g psychic phase with two non psychic armies

 DeathReaper wrote:
But you can select one eligible unit from your army to shoot with, and only use a grenade, because you can "resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons" then that unit "has finished making its attacks"

Yes, and then only that unit can make a battle focus move.

U02dah4 wrote:

As to the other problem "after this unit has finished making its attacks" is after this unit it has made its attacks. not after the next unit has made its attacks or at any time you like in the phase.

If you select another unit and finish its shots you are now after that units attacks and it is too late to move the original unit

If it wanted you to do it at the end of the shooting phase it would say at the end of the shooting phase

Citation please. If it wanted you to do it immediately, or directly after shooting, it would say so.

It does it says "after"

Its a matter of evidence based RAI not RAW based on GW consistant useage. I provided you with citations of gw usage you have cropped them out. You won't get a direct citation of after = directly after But takeing an open ended view breaks the game



if you adopt an open ended definition of after a whole bunch of GW rules break so RAI it doesn't work that way.

In all those citations I provied it's obvious after means directly after and the game breaks if not. I would ask if you can you provide a citation on why this use is different to those uses. But its rhetorical because you can't.

E.g. Command rerolls use of after means directly after the dice has rolled not in another phase or turn even though these would be after the dice roll in an open ended definition so I can't reroll my invul from 2 turns ago.

If you adopt the open ended for battle focus you need to explain why I can't reroll my invul two turns later amongst a bunch of others game breakages

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
But you can select one eligible unit from your army to shoot with, and only use a grenade, because you can "resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons" then that unit "has finished making its attacks"

Except that you can select a unit to shoot and choose a grenade attack as the only shooting model on a unit that is not within range of the grenade, but is within range of the other guns, so those units would have also "finished making its attacks" so they could move as well.

U02dah4 wrote:
It does it says "after"

Its a matter of evidence based RAI not RAW based on GW consistant useage. I provided you with citations of gw usage you have cropped them out. You won't get a direct citation of after = directly after But takeing an open ended view breaks the game

You havent provided any rule citations. Battle focus move is done after a unit finishes attacks in the shooting phase, so it happens at any time during the shooting phase, after the unit has shot.

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
It does it says "after"

Its a matter of evidence based RAI not RAW based on GW consistant useage. I provided you with citations of gw usage you have cropped them out. You won't get a direct citation of after = directly after But takeing an open ended view breaks the game

You havent provided any rule citations. Battle focus move is done after a unit finishes attacks in the shooting phase, so it happens at any time during the shooting phase, after the unit has shot.

"resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons" includes 0 ranged weapons. So yea.

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
It does it says "after"

Its a matter of evidence based RAI not RAW based on GW consistant useage. I provided you with citations of gw usage you have cropped them out. You won't get a direct citation of after = directly after But takeing an open ended view breaks the game

You havent provided any rule citations. Battle focus move is done after a unit finishes attacks in the shooting phase, so it happens at any time during the shooting phase, after the unit has shot.

Ignoring my citations and cropping them out because it doesn't suit your argument doesn't make them go away it just evidences your wrong I will requite them

In deployment

"If both players have units with abilities that allow them to be set up after both armies have deployed, the players must roll off after all
other units have been set up and alternate setting up these units, starting with the winner."

Doesn't mean I can roll off five turns later

The command reroll stratagem says "after you have made a hit roll...... Reroll that roll, test or saving throw".

Doesn't mean I can reroll in another turn

"In your Shooting phase, after this unit has finished making its attacks, unless it Fell Back or Advanced this turn, this unit can make a Battle Focus move"

Doesn't mean I can move this shooting phase because I was eligible to move last shooting phase.

After means directly after or the game breaks. How many more examples do you need

Theres 3 I notice you have provided 0 citations

For you to be right you need to explain why these dont mean directly after

Because its obvious the first two mean directly after and for the battle focus example it shows the inconsistency in yours you have to argue both that it is any point after and that the previous turn does not count as after. Showing that after has a cap but your not able to evidence where it is

Directly after always functions and is consistent

U02dah4 wrote:

In deployment

"If both players have units with abilities that allow them to be set up after both armies have deployed, the players must roll off after all
other units have been set up and alternate setting up these units, starting with the winner."

Doesn't mean I can roll off five turns later

Deployment is done in the deployment step. You cant deploy when the deployment step is over.

U02dah4 wrote:

The command reroll stratagem says "after you have made a hit roll...... Reroll that roll, test or saving throw".

Doesn't mean I can reroll in another turn

True. Battle focus move specifies when to make that move. In your shooting phase, and after the unit finished making its attacks.

U02dah4 wrote:

For you to be right you need to explain why these dont mean directly after

Because the rule doesnt say directly after. If GW wanted it to be directly after, the rule would say so.

1) deployment is done in the deployment step which is my point its obvious to anyone what was intended. Even you.

but that use of after doesn't specify in the deployment step. So by your open definition I shouldn't have to I should be able to do so at anypoint if your right you need to explain why not

2) it doesn't matter that Battle focus specifies in the shooting step that's an additional restriction - the crux of the issue is about the use of after and it is clear you can't command reroll 2 turns later. Why not it has no such phase based restriction - if after doesn't mean directly after

3) so your ok with me doing so while ineligible to fire because I was eligible to fire last turn. Because I meet both the requirements of after and being in my shooting phase



You have clear problems here applying your answer so im guessing your going to start arbitrarily saying it applies one way sometimes and not the other. With no explanation other than that's the way it works. Which just proves your answer is inconsistent and doesn't work and that therefore the consistent answer of direct is better

Just to further point out P5's inconsistency it also doesn't say the end of your shooting phase so feel free to make you battle focus move at any time in his turn since that is after whatever shooting phase that the battle focus could have been used.


Sometimes I think P5 just likes to troll people with his comments.

Well that poll suggests it's not very clear. I think the most simple RAI is option one on the poll. Any other option requires some slightly strained " well technically..." arguments. An FAQ to clear it up might be nice.

Depends which question 19 votes vs 5 for shoot BF immediately seems pretty consensused.

The other is an even split though but it is much more ambiguous

It’s fairly obvious it’s intended to be “shoot with unit then do BF for that unit right away” unless deliberately being difficult, but we’ll have to wait for the FAQ to shut the rules-twisters up. Right now they have enough elbow room for a “well ackshually”, despite intent being damn clear. Same old same old.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Heres another question: Why would you not just advance with the unit if you werent gonna shoot it anyway?

I get that theres times when you were planning on shooting something and it mabey died early due to rolling hot with another unit, but that should rarely ever happen.

So, if a unit was never planning to shoot, why would it wait to battle focus, when it could have just rolled an advance to begin with?

To trigger abilities that happen instead of making a battle focus move, like the swooping hawks redeployment.