[Poll] Should the marine codex be split into two armies - Primaris and Firstborn

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**Mr Morden**

stonehorse wrote:
Hairesy wrote:
Split them up. I'm tired of my army being used to prop up the new line while they figure out how to maximize profits.

Also, as Primaris get more and more stuff with each edition it is just going to mean that a single Codex gets too big, and too many things to even attempt at balancing.

.

Happened years ago thats why is a vast bloated mess but split them up and you end with two vast bloated codexes at the same price. No one wins

**Eldarsif**

Blackie wrote:
oni wrote:
Something needs to happen. GW cannot stay on the present course they're on with SM's. They cannot keep adding more and more units. Infinite expansion is not realistic.

Why do SM need new stuff? I mean new units with new datasheets. Most of the other factions' releases are just new kits of already existing units/models. And primaris already have a pretty wide range.

Replacing in terms of updating, instead of expanding. GW (and the fanbase) lived for decades without tons of new SM stuff every year, the new line of models shouldn't be the excuse to throw countless new kits every edition, which are totally unnecessary both modelwise and rulewise.

Sadly that is the MO for GW Poster boys and gals. I mean, in AoS we are just three editions in and already we have Stormcast(70+) closing in on the number of units Space Marines have(100+).

The curse of the poster factions is that they get way too much new toys that just makes the faction bloated and unwieldy.

**Blackie**

stonehorse wrote:

Also, as Primaris get more and more stuff with each edition it is just going to mean that a single Codex gets too big, and too many things to even attempt at balancing.

Without separating anything lots of units could be merged into one profile and balance wise it wouldn't change anything while the codex would be smaller. Terminators, Assault Terminators and Relic Terminators are all the same thing, just like the three Land Speeders, the three Storm Speeders and the three Gladiators. Both Predators can be be one profile, some dreads too. Lots of almost identical weapons can also be merged into a single profile. And so on.

**jeff white**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the Tacticool Marines besides the fact they were made into two separate troops for no good reason.

Disagree. Put them in a book for GI Joe and his crew, then. That is my vote. Nast.

**Hecaton**

Wyldhunt wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:They should just throw both lines together. A Marine with a plasma gun is a marine with a plasma gun, we don't need 4 different kinds of Marines with a plasma gun where only the Marine player can see the difference, especially with the scale 40K has nowadays. I'm using my old Plague Marines from third edition right next to Plague Marines from 8th edition. Let loyalists do the same and don't force them to buy 2 Codizes + whatever supplement.

Nevelon wrote:Keep them together, but consolidate. A marine is a marine. Intercessor squad? That’s just a tac squad, maybe with an AGL as a special. Swap in a hellblaster model if you want a plasma gun. Assault intercessors? Assault marines without JPs.

Make sure each box can build a legal unit, but trim all the bloat you can. You want an option allowed on the datasheet but not in the box? Kitbash or swap parts around. The marine range is deep and interchangable.

These. The primaris models really seem to be a modeling choice (truescale marines), but GW was worried that such a major scale creep on their most popular/profitable faction would turn people away. Plus, it's harder to sell tall tactical marines (intercessors) than it is to sell a "new" unit with a beefier statline. So they came up with fluff about a super secret but also really expansive project that has been in the works for 10,000 years to explain the sudden introduction of tall marines.

We can't really put that major of a fluff genie back in the bottle, but we can spare ourselves unnecessary bloat of datasheets. An intercessor and a bolter marine can just use the same datasheet. Fluff your dudes as primaris or firstborn as you see fit, but ultimately it's a T4 W2 Sv3+ guy with a bolter. We don't have to split hairs on whether one guy's bolter has better AP than the other's. They're essentially the same thing. Hellblasters are your new plasmagun marines. Eradicators are your new melta/multi-melta marines. It's fine. Sticking a hellblaster in the same squad as some intercessors hasn't made Death Watch overpowered, and it won't make smurfs or space puppies overpowered either.

I'd be tempted to make the heavy/assault variants of intercessor and hellblaster weapons into a benefit you unlock via chapter tactics. So certain chapters might have the option to fire the heavy version of their guns on turns that they hold still. Other chapters might get the Assault 3 versions of those guns on turns that they advance.

Intercessors/eradicators/hellblasters/heavy intercessors = marines with bolters and special weapons. Just use them as tac/dev/sternguard squads. I think I'd be okay with gravis armor just being mechanically the same as power armor.
Assault Intercessors = assault marines. GW already has a jump pack kit that looks pretty okay when you replace the backpack with it.
Reivers = either assault marines or scouts (with melee options). Alternatively, just lump reivers, infiltrators, and off-brand-infiltrators (the haywire mine guys) into a single unit. Possibly alongside scouts. Basically the Spectrus kill team from Death Watch.
Primaris and non-primaris versions of characters are 95% the same already. Just ditch the primaris-specific limitations on primaris buffs, and let the tech priests have their weapon options regardless of primaris status.
Outriders = bikes with optional chainsword upgrades.
Transports can carry both primaris/non-primaris models because the "primaris" keyword can just go away. We already have to pretend a rhino can carry 10 marines; who cares if they're slightly bulkier than before? It's a clown car either way.
Dreads... probably have to stay split up. Although some of them could probably just become a wargear or upgrade option for others. (What is a ven dread but a normal dread with a statline boost and a special rule?)

Do that, and you remove what? About 12 datasheets from the codex? More if you find a clean way to combine phobos and non-phobos versions of characters.

This is a pretty reasonable take and I agree. Plus, it would open up more opportunities to model units differently - you could have a mix of Primaris and Firstborn models (on 32mm bases) to represent a squad that is made from marines of different ages, or you could have them all be the same.

Honestly, I just want truescale MK VI and VII armor, along with terminator armor, but that might not be in the cards.

**Voss**

stonehorse wrote:
Hairesy wrote:
Split them up. I'm tired of my army being used to prop up the new line while they figure out how to maximize profits.

From a fluff point, it also opens up the possibility of doing a schism between chapters that are against Primaris and those that are in favour of them.

They raised that fluff point all the way back at the beginning of 8th. Certain chapters (Flesh Tearers and Dark Angels definitely spring to mind, with the FT chapter master ranting at Dante about it at the end of Devastation of Baal, about how it would spell the end of everything they are) didn't trust or want primaris. They teased us with that and the 'no mutations... yet' aspect of primaris (particularly for space woofs). And then they said, 'Naw, its all fine. All the named chapters took them in, there are Inner Circle Primaris now, and BA primaris get the black and red thirsts just like everybody else. Primaris are perfectly normal (but vaguely better) marines and all that ominious hinting and foreshadowing was meaningless. The end.'

**Gert**

Voss wrote:
They raised that fluff point all the way back at the beginning of 8th. Certain chapters (Flesh Tearers and Dark Angels definitely spring to mind, with the FT chapter master ranting at Dante about it at the end of Devastation of Baal, about how it would spell the end of everything they are) didn't trust or want primaris. They teased us with that and the 'no mutations... yet' aspect of primaris (particularly for space woofs). And then they said, 'Naw, its all fine. All the named chapters took them in, there are Inner Circle Primaris now, and BA primaris get the black and red thirsts just like everybody else. Primaris are perfectly normal (but vaguely better) marines and all that ominious hinting and foreshadowing was meaningless. The end.'

The whole situation is quite funny IMO because the anti-Primaris crowd decried the fact these new Marines could be clean of the flaws and curses that came to define the likes of the Blood Angels and Space Wolves, then GW added in that not only do the Primaris show the same flaws but in some cases show greater susceptibility and more extreme end results, and then people complained yet again.
Almost like nothing will please that crowd

I mean sure, there wasn't a whole lot of diving into the cultural changes the Primaris caused and what the effects of these curses and flaws would be but hey it's not like there's a new book series dedicated to actually looking into stuff like that, no siree.

**Hellebore**

What they should do, is say that everyone has been rubiconed, or is primaris.

Then as they slowly release new versions of old units, they primaris the models.

In a few years the tactical squad will be primaris and so on.

**NinthMusketeer**

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
They should just throw both lines together. A Marine with a plasma gun is a marine with a plasma gun, we don't need 4 different kinds of Marines with a plasma gun where only the Marine player can see the difference, especially with the scale 40K has nowadays. I'm using my old Plague Marines from third edition right next to Plague Marines from 8th edition. Let loyalists do the same and don't force them to buy 2 Codizes + whatever supplement.

I agree that there is a LOT of condensing they could do. Making Primaris an upgrade option for characters for +X points and consolidating alternate dataslates simply for different equipment options could eliminate probably a quarter of the slates in the Codex right now with no invalidation of miniatures. When people talk about excessive bloat, that is exactly the sort of thing they mean.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gert wrote:
Voss wrote:
They raised that fluff point all the way back at the beginning of 8th. Certain chapters (Flesh Tearers and Dark Angels definitely spring to mind, with the FT chapter master ranting at Dante about it at the end of Devastation of Baal, about how it would spell the end of everything they are) didn't trust or want primaris. They teased us with that and the 'no mutations... yet' aspect of primaris (particularly for space woofs). And then they said, 'Naw, its all fine. All the named chapters took them in, there are Inner Circle Primaris now, and BA primaris get the black and red thirsts just like everybody else. Primaris are perfectly normal (but vaguely better) marines and all that ominious hinting and foreshadowing was meaningless. The end.'

The whole situation is quite funny IMO because the anti-Primaris crowd decried the fact these new Marines could be clean of the flaws and curses that came to define the likes of the Blood Angels and Space Wolves, then GW added in that not only do the Primaris show the same flaws but in some cases show greater susceptibility and more extreme end results, and then people complained yet again.
Almost like nothing will please that crowd
I mean sure, there wasn't a whole lot of diving into the cultural changes the Primaris caused and what the effects of these curses and flaws would be but hey it's not like there's a new book series dedicated to actually looking into stuff like that, no siree.

Hm, in my locale it was regarded as pretty obvious Cawl was full of it when he made those claims and that they would be proven false. I don't know a single person who was surprised by Primaris Death Company.

**Insectum7**

Hellebore wrote:
What they should do, is say that everyone has been rubiconed, or is primaris.

Then as they slowly release new versions of old units, they primaris the models.

In a few years the tactical squad will be primaris and so on.

Eww. F that. They should find a horrible flaw with the Primaris geneseed and turn them all into penal legions, barring Marines that Rubiconned, and just revert Calgar back to his old self, as though awakening from a fever dream.

**Wyldhunt**

Hellebore wrote:What they should do, is say that everyone has been rubiconed, or is primaris.

Then as they slowly release new versions of old units, they primaris the models.

In a few years the tactical squad will be primaris and so on.

That would work pretty well, I think. Just throw in a snippet of fluff about how the rubicon process (or whatever it's called) has been refined over time so that marines don't lose half of their tiny population just for +1 Attacks.

Gert wrote:
Voss wrote:
They raised that fluff point all the way back at the beginning of 8th. Certain chapters (Flesh Tearers and Dark Angels definitely spring to mind, with the FT chapter master ranting at Dante about it at the end of Devastation of Baal, about how it would spell the end of everything they are) didn't trust or want primaris. They teased us with that and the 'no mutations... yet' aspect of primaris (particularly for space woofs). And then they said, 'Naw, its all fine. All the named chapters took them in, there are Inner Circle Primaris now, and BA primaris get the black and red thirsts just like everybody else. Primaris are perfectly normal (but vaguely better) marines and all that ominious hinting and foreshadowing was meaningless. The end.'

The whole situation is quite funny IMO because the anti-Primaris crowd decried the fact these new Marines could be clean of the flaws and curses that came to define the likes of the Blood Angels and Space Wolves, then GW added in that not only do the Primaris show the same flaws but in some cases show greater susceptibility and more extreme end results, and then people complained yet again.
Almost like nothing will please that crowd
I mean sure, there wasn't a whole lot of diving into the cultural changes the Primaris caused and what the effects of these curses and flaws would be but hey it's not like there's a new book series dedicated to actually looking into stuff like that, no siree.

I mean, I think it's fair to be displeased with both the initial "no more flaws!" thing and with the way all that buildup just got swept away for no payoff. I think that's how I feel about it. The previously unheard of Cawl coming out of nowhere and suddenly being able to improve on the marine making process felt kind of fanfic-y and unearned. Especially given that you have various bits of fluff (including Fabius Bile's whole gimmick) suggesting that doing so is all but impossible. So saying that Cawl not only made better marines than the Emperor but also fixed all those pesky gene flaws (that accounted for a lot of what makes certain chapters interesting) just added to the fanfic-yness.

Building up the possibility of internal conflict surrounding the forced assimilation of primaris into chapters was one of the few potentially interesting angles to the ham-fisted fluff that was very transparently trying to address the scale creep of the models. So in addition to being anticlimactic, ditching the built up marine civil war angle took away most of the interesting narrative hooks of the ham-fisted fluff. Oh, primaris and firstborn are actually totally cool now? Basically just bigger versions of the dudes we had before? Then why bother with the better-than-Fabius tech priest and the abundance of redundant datasheets at all?

Plus, it kind of smells of narrative being interrupted by marketing decisions, which is generally kind of unpleasant to catch a whiff of.

jeff white wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the Tacticool Marines besides the fact they were made into two separate troops for no good reason.

Disagree. Put them in a book for GI Joe and his crew, then. That is my vote. Nast.

I'm with EviscerationPlague. I don't love some of the tacticool heads, but I like the super duper special marine tech. I buy that something like an eliminator's special sniper rounds or a haywire mine or the infiltrator's thingy that prevents deepstriking near them would all be too expensive to make and hard to use for such equipment to be mass produced and put in the hands of guardsmen. Showing off equipment that only transhumans can reliably get use out of helps strengthen marine identity and sort of helps me mentally justify their existence. Like, marines that are just tougher, punchier sisters of battle kind of make you question the wisdom of creating them. Surely you'd be better off just taking those promising marine recruits and giving them some training and some power armor. Sure, they won't spit acid or be able to eat brains to gather intel, but you also won't kill off 90% of your recruits via over-the-top training and dangerous implantation surgeries either.

The shoot-around-corners sniper rounds are maybe a tad much, but I like that eliminators feel like they couldn't be replaced by a squad of guardsmen with sniper rifles. Scouts sort of do feel like they're failing to leverage transhuman muscle.Or maybe I'm just a sucker for cool gadgets. I really like the new doodads craftworlders can be equipped with.

**Blackie**

Hellebore wrote:
What they should do, is say that everyone has been rubiconed, or is primaris.

Then as they slowly release new versions of old units, they primaris the models.

In a few years the tactical squad will be primaris and so on.

Exactly. Re-do and update the already existing kits like the intercessors squad rather than expanding the army's roster. Possibly without invalidating older models/squad, aka banning certain currently possible loadouts or messing too much with the models' sizes.

**Hellebore**

Insectum7 wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
What they should do, is say that everyone has been rubiconed, or is primaris.

Then as they slowly release new versions of old units, they primaris the models.

In a few years the tactical squad will be primaris and so on.

Eww. F that. They should find a horrible flaw with the Primaris geneseed and turn them all into penal legions, barring Marines that Rubiconned, and just revert Calgar back to his old self, as though awakening from a fever dream.

lol.

Once all marines have been rubiconed then primaris is dropped because they're all just space marines then.

**jeff white**

I hope so… so called primaris, when they were at least third. Ridiculous.

**Skinnereal**

If Firstborn players are ever to add Primaris to their army, they really don't want to buy another Codex to use them.
Admittedly, if most changes from here on in are going to be to Primaris units, then a Firstborn codex does make sense. Upgrade the codex that gets updated, and leave the other alone.

I shelved my SM army long ago, as I could not keep up with the costant Codex updates.

I voted 'no', to keep the SM armies joined. But, as an ex-SM player, 2 parallel codex releases makes some sense. And, for new SM players, it keeps the Primaris options tidily trimmed.

**Karol**

Wyldhunt 804223 11332079 wrote:
Surely you'd be better off just taking those promising marine recruits and giving them some training and some power armor. Sure, they won't spit acid or be able to eat brains to gather intel, but you also won't kill off 90% of your recruits via over-the-top training and dangerous implantation surgeries either.

Without the training, conditioning and implants the humans in power armour would not be able to perform the jobs only space marines can perform. a force of unaugmented, GK without the proper training would just turn in to 100+ warp gates the moment they face any demonic force.

**The_Real_Chris**

I mean currently a bunch of chaos players use the marine codex as its better than theirs.

For Killteam now all the first born guys are using or are thinking of use the new chaos tea profile.

It would surprise me when the Chaos dex comes out people will switch to that and use their first born armies as counts as.

**vipoid**

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I mean currently a bunch of chaos players use the marine codex as its better than theirs.

I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if some Chaos players had been using the relevant Space Marine codex instead of their own since 4th edition.

**EviscerationPlague**

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I mean currently a bunch of chaos players use the marine codex as its better than theirs.

For Killteam now all the first born guys are using or are thinking of use the new chaos tea profile.

It would surprise me when the Chaos dex comes out people will switch to that and use their first born armies as counts as.

Perfect reason to do your own color scheme! I more than encourage people to do counts as. Nobody should be punished because GW messed up doing Word Bearers.

**Ventus**

Gert wrote:
The whole situation is quite funny IMO because the anti-Primaris crowd decried the fact these new Marines could be clean of the flaws and curses that came to define the likes of the Blood Angels and Space Wolves, then GW added in that not only do the Primaris show the same flaws but in some cases show greater susceptibility and more extreme end results, and then people complained yet again.

You just made that second part up. What actually happened is that by the time they tried to patch all the holes in the primaris rollout lore nobody gave a gak, and nobody was going to be satisfied with whatever Frankenstein lore they cooked up to reconcile all the mistakes. If anything you would expect people who actually LIKED Bigger Batmen to be complaining that in lore they actually aren't any bigger except in some sort of ineffable abstract way that nobody can articulate.

If anyone's salty seems like it's you cuz your choice of marine is (and will continue to be) the source of scorn and ridicule.

**Gert**

Lol ok.

**The Newman**

I like that the average response seems to be "no, and just roll firstborn into the Primaris line already and be done with it".

**Togusa**

How about we just DoDo the Firstborn and be done with it? That's what I'd like to see.

**catbarf**

Hellebore wrote:
What they should do, is say that everyone has been rubiconed, or is primaris.

Then as they slowly release new versions of old units, they primaris the models.

In a few years the tactical squad will be primaris and so on.

I can't think of any particularly good reason why Intercessors and Primaris-ified Tacticals should exist in the same army.

Give Intercessors the option to take special and heavy weapons and they can just be the same unit.

**G00fySmiley**

Karol wrote:
Wyldhunt 804223 11332079 wrote:
Surely you'd be better off just taking those promising marine recruits and giving them some training and some power armor. Sure, they won't spit acid or be able to eat brains to gather intel, but you also won't kill off 90% of your recruits via over-the-top training and dangerous implantation surgeries either.

Without the training, conditioning and implants the humans in power armour would not be able to perform the jobs only space marines can perform. a force of unaugmented, GK without the proper training would just turn in to 100+ warp gates the moment they face any demonic force.

I'd read that book. some chapter on the fringe takes all aspirants, some unfit for service but they give them armor and do what they can. chaos incursion ensues as they are not properly conditioned when facing down the enemies of the imperium and bringing taint home.

**PenitentJake**

Voss wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
Hairesy wrote:
Split them up. I'm tired of my army being used to prop up the new line while they figure out how to maximize profits.

From a fluff point, it also opens up the possibility of doing a schism between chapters that are against Primaris and those that are in favour of them.

They raised that fluff point all the way back at the beginning of 8th. Certain chapters (Flesh Tearers and Dark Angels definitely spring to mind, with the FT chapter master ranting at Dante about it at the end of Devastation of Baal, about how it would spell the end of everything they are) didn't trust or want primaris. They teased us with that and the 'no mutations... yet' aspect of primaris (particularly for space woofs). And then they said, 'Naw, its all fine. All the named chapters took them in, there are Inner Circle Primaris now, and BA primaris get the black and red thirsts just like everybody else. Primaris are perfectly normal (but vaguely better) marines and all that ominious hinting and foreshadowing was meaningless. The end.'

The Torchbearer Fleet Crusade rules are pretty cool storytelling tools for the recruitment of Primaris into existing chapters, and there are a ton of potential stories to be told on the tabletop, including a parent chapeter which accepts its Greyshields reluctantly or not at all.

It's 40k- there is no "the end."

Just because a schism hasn't happened yet in the lore doesn't mean it won't, and even if it never happens in the lore, that doesn't mean it can't happen on your table.

**Sgt. Cortez**

Btw you don't need separate Codizes to have factions face each other. With Daemons, CSM and Orks we have three Codizes that do more infighting than fighting against any other faction

. It’s also the reason why Fallen should be in the Dark Angels supplement but oh well...

**jeff white**

Togusa wrote:
How about we just DoDo the Firstborn and be done with it? That's what I'd like to see.

Except that restartes are already the Doh… Doh… marines, so, how about we make the new models fit the OG lore and retcon the heretical Cawlsian nonsense and be done with it?

**EviscerationPlague**

jeff white wrote:
Togusa wrote:
How about we just DoDo the Firstborn and be done with it? That's what I'd like to see.

Except that restartes are already the Doh… Doh… marines, so, how about we make the new models fit the OG lore and retcon the heretical Cawlsian nonsense and be done with it?

Cawl isn't a heretic, he just doesn't keep the setting infinitely stagnate for the neckbeards that refuse any change in the setting.

**jeff white**

Cawl is obviously a heretic, and could be represented that way, should be…

But I guess any progress is good progress, huh? Just have to go somewhere, huh, for the sake of change, right, because new is always better when attention spans are measured in twits rather than chapters, right?

Yeah, neckbeard… sure. Keep your insults to yourself.

Cawl is an obvious heretic.

Welcome to the ignore pile, and plague is right.