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 xeen wrote:


I actually disagree. I think codex creep is much less worse now. I remember the 5th/6th edition necrons and GK. 7th edition elder. Yikes. This power creep is nothing compared to those.

I agree, people do seem to have short memory. And don't forget that now GW fixes the issues, sometimes really really soon. So most of the stuff that is OP on paper and crushed one or two main events in real life never happens for a very large portion of players. Like the 9 squigbuggies and 5 flyers that outraged the world, how many of the posters here have actually played against such infamous list, let alone played against it multiple times? In 7th the most OP armies stayed OP for very long without touching anything. Even drukhari in 9th, which have been top tiers for a while, had to rework their lists pretty heavily after a couple of fixes by GW.

Codex creep on paper isn't really an issue if such creep only last a few months.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Every game feels like its being played in a clean room, its serialized, standardized, its soulless.

This is the players' fault, entirely. There are actual official rules to play different formats, missions, styles of games.

Every-turn scoring requires a sudden death end game trigger. Warmachine does it well - you score points every turn but if at any point a player has a specified lead (5 Control Points in case of WM) the game ends instantly with his win.

One of the golden rules of game design is that a game should last only up to the point when outcome is obvious and not a moment longer. It's one of the things WH40K does badly.

how many of the posters here have actually played against such infamous list, let alone played against it multiple times?

As somebody who has been playing 40K for 20 years and still plays miniature games regularly every week (including 40K), lets go through them shall we

.nid zilla-check
.chaos double lash prince-check
.iron warriors 3rd ed version-check
.riptide spam-check
.eldar corsairs FW army list-check
.DKOK FW army list-check
.elysians FW army list-check
.5th ed GKs-check
.chaos demon summoning spam-check
etc...

I have fought these types of lists multiple times over hundreds if not thousands of games, even against the toughest of lists i have had good games as long as the players involved had the right mind set.

I have also faced rather mediocre lists that were terrible games because of the people i was playing against. codex creep is a thing that GW uses for marketing, even more now than they did before. they may attempt to fix it faster now, however the fact it gets released in the state it has been without proper play testing or even a cursory understanding of the game is more of an issue for me. but then GW left the sphere of a Napoleonic style wargame in favor of a war themed game a long time ago.

My point is that currently there might even no need of the right mind now set since infamous lists are doomed to be axed in a short period of time, unlike in previous editions.

 catbarf wrote:

A lot of games nowadays instead use an action system, typically two actions per unit, so you can move + charge or shoot + charge but not move + shoot + charge. Apocalypse does something similar, where the Assault order allows a formation to move twice and fight in melee, but not shoot.

I agree with the problem of "added action" in 40k, and the example of move+shoot+charge vs move+advance does show the problem perfectly.

I would love a two action system.

However, I think the problem if a simple doube move charge would still be there.
Bikes charging 28" (like 32" on Eldar bikes!) is ridiculous when rifles have a maximum range of 24" and an effective range of 12". Eldar bikes would literally be able to charge you from further away than you could ever hope to move+shoot them.
Meanwhile my Terminator Assault Squad is charging just 10"...

Many games use a move+X system instead, so we might have a M+6 or M+2d3 or similar. This lowers the excesses of high speed, and means there's not such a huge gulf between fast and slow.

That said, assault unitd varying from 5" move all the way up to 16" would still be a huge difference, I'd like to reduce movement speed across the board.
This would also (and more importantly) make the board feel a little bit larger.
Say 5" standard for infantry, 7-9"ish for bikes and jumppacks.
Whilst we're at it reduce weapon ranges as well. Small arms should *cap* at 24", 18" being fairly common.
It's just dumb when my army's standard rifle can reach most of the way across the board.

I would go back to 4th, where the problem lists were durability related rather than lethality.

It is frustrating not to be able to kill something, but even more frustrating to be tabled.

Cyel wrote:
Every-turn scoring requires a sudden death end game trigger. Warmachine does it well - you score points every turn but if at any point a player has a specified lead (5 Control Points in case of WM) the game ends instantly with his win.

One of the golden rules of game design is that a game should last only up to the point when outcome is obvious and not a moment longer. It's one of the things WH40K does badly.

Certainly true in matched, where the win is all that matters.

But in Crusade, I might not be playing to win the mission- I might be trying to succeed at an Agenda or a trial of sorts, which is worth experience points, but no VP. This is probably the biggest functional difference between Crusade and Matched.

I think there were also some tournament formats where your VP total counted for something regardless of strict wins vs losses, so ending a game prematurely due to an inability to win could screw those players over too. As a guy who doesn't play tournaments, or even matched play, I have no idea if this is still common at tournaments or whether they've devised a work-around.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

A lot of games nowadays instead use an action system, typically two actions per unit, so you can move + charge or shoot + charge but not move + shoot + charge. Apocalypse does something similar, where the Assault order allows a formation to move twice and fight in melee, but not shoot.

I agree with the problem of "added action" in 40k, and the example of move+shoot+charge vs move+advance does show the problem perfectly.

I would love a two action system.

However, I think the problem if a simple doube move charge would still be there.
Bikes charging 28" (like 32" on Eldar bikes!) is ridiculous when rifles have a maximum range of 24" and an effective range of 12". Eldar bikes would literally be able to charge you from further away than you could ever hope to move+shoot them.
Meanwhile my Terminator Assault Squad is charging just 10"...

Many games use a move+X system instead, so we might have a M+6 or M+2d3 or similar. This lowers the excesses of high speed, and means there's not such a huge gulf between fast and slow.

That said, assault unitd varying from 5" move all the way up to 16" would still be a huge difference, I'd like to reduce movement speed across the board.
This would also (and more importantly) make the board feel a little bit larger.
Say 5" standard for infantry, 7-9"ish for bikes and jumppacks.
Whilst we're at it reduce weapon ranges as well. Small arms should *cap* at 24", 18" being fairly common.
It's just dumb when my army's standard rifle can reach most of the way across the board.

Infinity, which does double action, has two move characteristics, where you move the first one your first move, and the second your second move. So a 6-2 move,, you'd move 8 inches total. Also, bikes could be changed pretty drastically to work within even just making it so charges are double move at the beginning of movement. All you have to do is have certain vehicle types have set charges, like how Fly did in WHFB.