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That and don't forget those were hand sculpted and had to be then hand cut into parts to be made into moulds. It was also from the earlier days so chances are once GW found a style or pose that "worked" it would get copied into other models by the designers because they'd know what angles they could work with.

The "spear one hand gun raised in the other" is a classic style that we see repeated over quite a few models from that era.

 dan2026 wrote:
Their armour look like 4+ armour to me.
Better than Guardsman, worse than Space Marines.
They'll probably have an elite unit with a 3+.

If this is a 4+?


Then so are bloody Genestealer Neophytes and Guardsmen. Scions would be a 3+.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Their armour look like 4+ armour to me.
Better than Guardsman, worse than Space Marines.
They'll probably have an elite unit with a 3+.

If this is a 4+?

Spoiler:

Then so are bloody Genestealer Neophytes and Guardsmen. Scions would be a 3+.

Full torso hard armor with soft arms/legs has been classic 4+ carapace armor since forever.

Gurardsmen have lighter vests, can’t speak to neophytes.

But the new guy is solidly in 4+ territory.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Their armour look like 4+ armour to me.
Better than Guardsman, worse than Space Marines.
They'll probably have an elite unit with a 3+.

If this is a 4+?

Spoiler:

Then so are bloody Genestealer Neophytes and Guardsmen. Scions would be a 3+.

Full torso hard armor with soft arms/legs has been classic 4+ carapace armor since forever.

Except when it's represented differently, I guess?

Gurardsmen have lighter vests

Nope. They have Flak Armor. Flak Vests are their own thing, which had rules tying them to "Jungle Fighters" for a time. 6+ save but gained some bonuses.

can’t speak to neophytes.

It's the same gear as the Leaguer's, for all intents and purposes. The main difference is a few extra plates in lieu of the ribbing for the chest armor.

And reminder:
For some stupid reason this Neophyte is considered to be as protected wearing mining gear as a Cadian or Vostroyan(who were said to be wearing carapace armor).

But the new guy is solidly in 4+ territory.

Then a lot of units need to be adjusted.

Because this?

This is not what you described for Carapace Armor.

That has a lot of unarmored parts. It's not even full torso armor. It's basically a couple of plates strapped to the front of a voidsuit.

This looks like a Squat .


This is a fat bearded bloke cosplaying a Tau.


And that's me done on the topic.

Thank god. We could not have survived without such a useful hot take on a controversial subject. We can only hope you live up to your promise and never speak of this matter again.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's the same gear as the Leaguer's, for all intents and purposes. The main difference is a few extra plates in lieu of the ribbing for the chest armor.

And the plates are thicker, and with better coverage.

Thus as the Neophyte already has a 5+, the better armored Kin should have a 4+.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
This looks like a Squat .


This is a fat bearded bloke cosplaying a Tau.


And that's me done on the topic.

That top one was never released so can’t really be used as the “archetype” squat. These are what squats looked like.

That new guy, he looks good to me. Better than abandoned second edition fantasy dwarf with a gun.

Coverage isn't all that matters when it comes to armor. Material counts. For a real world example, a level 3a stab vest gives you far more coverage than level 4 plates, but only one of those will stop a rifle round. Craftsmanship and quality of the material matter, too. There's a world of difference between old steel body armor that was only good for shrapnel and modern AR550 single press armor that will easily stop a direct hit at close range from a .30-06.
Squat and GSC gear may look similar and have the same origins, but GSC gear is made for civilian use to protect from hazardous work. I wouldn't expect it to stop a bullet as well as actual battle armor can.

No One Important wrote:
modern AR550 single press armor that will easily stop a direct hit at close range from a .30-06.

Sure but the spalling will kill you. Steel plates suck which is why we haven't issued them in 30 years. Ceramic is much better and has the same stopping power

Spalling has been fairly well solved by modern steel plates. Not the average ar500 plates for sure, but the higher end pieces come with very effective spall coats as standard that act very similar to either a thin layer of ceramic or a layer of weak plastic armor that allows for some give or captures the spalling in event of partial penetration and shattering on the steel layer.
At this point, the value of ceramics over steel is in the weight, cost (compared to high end steel armor), and that it can stop things even the best steel can't. At least for the first few hits.
Plastics are well on the way to surpassing them both. Lighter than either, no spalling, no powdering. Eventually should combine the safety of ceramic with the durability of steel.

Andykp wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
This looks like a Squat .


This is a fat bearded bloke cosplaying a Tau.


And that's me done on the topic.

That top one was never released so can’t really be used as the “archetype” squat. These are what squats looked like.

That new guy, he looks good to me. Better than abandoned second edition fantasy dwarf with a gun.

Most of the catalog pic you posted isn't really representative of the majority of the range either. The warriors are more representative.

I'm inclined to agree with Andykp. Tau/genestealer squats are pretty uninspiring.

Has anyone else in the preceding 30 pages noted that they have more in common with Mantic Forgefathers than with classic Squats.

I bought some Forgefathers but eventually just redoubled my efforts to acquire more Squats.

Andykp wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
This looks like a Squat .


This is a fat bearded bloke cosplaying a Tau.


And that's me done on the topic.

That top one was never released so can’t really be used as the “archetype” squat. These are what squats looked like.

That new guy, he looks good to me. Better than abandoned second edition fantasy dwarf with a gun.

I can see the unreleased model fitting a mental image for a lot of people... but GW wasn't feeling it back in 2nd edition or now, based on that new model. I like that new model too. It feels like it fits in with the design direction GW is going with.

I'm actually wondering if the new model we've seen is a special unit of some kind. A lot of people have been assuming its a standard trooper... but what if it's like a "Guild Engineer Salvager". The shadowed models one has a pickaxe, and another maybe a shoulder mounted mining laser. We may yet see the standard trooper? Who knows!

For those discussing armor that catalog pic (I think from WD 111) has a nice mix of old stuff in it. Top square is mostly 6+ with the Hearthguard and Warlord having a carapace breastplate and helm giving them 5+. I think that was upped to 4+ in 2nd edition. Bottom right is the Exo-armor which was 2+ and the bottom middle is 3+. Personally I can see the new model being 4+, especially if it's some sort of special engineer unit rather than a standard trooper.

No One Important wrote:
Spalling has been fairly well solved by modern steel plates. Not the average ar500 plates for sure, but the higher end pieces come with very effective spall coats as standard that act very similar to either a thin layer of ceramic or a layer of weak plastic armor that allows for some give or captures the spalling in event of partial penetration and shattering on the steel layer.
At this point, the value of ceramics over steel is in the weight, cost (compared to high end steel armor), and that it can stop things even the best steel can't. At least for the first few hits.
Plastics are well on the way to surpassing them both. Lighter than either, no spalling, no powdering. Eventually should combine the safety of ceramic with the durability of steel.

The anti spall coating is just truck bed liner and flakes off really quick. I would much rather be wearing ceramic if I'm gonna take multiple hits. The weight difference is also huge, my Lv4 ceramics are about half the weight of steel plates. I've seen some nasty spall injuries on guys in ME/Africa that were using makeshift steel armor. They still took a bullet, just in 100 tiny fragments all over their neck and face.

gravitywell wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
This looks like a Squat .


This is a fat bearded bloke cosplaying a Tau.


And that's me done on the topic.

That top one was never released so can’t really be used as the “archetype” squat. These are what squats looked like.

That new guy, he looks good to me. Better than abandoned second edition fantasy dwarf with a gun.

I can see the unreleased model fitting a mental image for a lot of people... but GW wasn't feeling it back in 2nd edition or now, based on that new model. I like that new model too. It feels like it fits in with the design direction GW is going with.

Squats weren't removed because of their Sci-fi Fantasy Dwarf aspects. They were removed because they "felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice"; removed because they weren't the dwarfs archetype done properly but instead they'd turned what in Fantasy and other settings was a "proud and noble race" into something with an entirely silly name and given them an absurd biker theming. The way they were in Epic with their big well-crafted war-machines to fit in with the artisan aspects of the Dwarf archetype was said to be more in line with how they wanted them to be.

I'm actually wondering if the new model we've seen is a special unit of some kind. A lot of people have been assuming its a standard trooper... but what if it's like a "Guild Engineer Salvager". The shadowed models one has a pickaxe, and another maybe a shoulder mounted mining laser. We may yet see the standard trooper? who knows!

No, people aren't assuming it's a standard trooper, we've been told it's a standard trooper in the reveal article;

...as you can see from even this basic trooper.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Squats weren't removed because of their Sci-fi Fantasy Dwarf aspects. They were removed because they "felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice"; removed because they weren't the dwarfs archetype done properly but instead they'd turned what in Fantasy and other settings was a "proud and noble race" into something with an entirely silly name and given them an absurd biker theming. The way they were in Epic with their big well-crafted war-machines to fit in with the artisan aspects of the Dwarf archetype was said to be more in line with how they wanted them to be.

Right, but the quote from Jervis on Squats doesn't exclude appearance... it explicitly mentions the "short bikers motif" as a negative. Design and aesthetics were probably a big part of it, and the post further describes;

The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us...

Maybe the space Vikings with bolters and copy-and-paste fantasy slayers were not a stumbling block then, but maybe they were. I think that seeing the unreleased models is a window into how they were playing with the appearance. What we know is they didn't move forward with it in 2nd, and they haven't moved forward with that now (yet?).

That all said, there may be new blood at GW now that does feel inspired and is rolling with it. Hopefully they do the Votann as dwarves justice. Though, this quote from April 10th has me a little worried they'll try and get too zany:

Old-time fans will enjoy the references and twists, while new fans will be into their funky tech, unusual appearance, and unique playstyle.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

I'm actually wondering if the new model we've seen is a special unit of some kind. A lot of people have been assuming its a standard trooper... but what if it's like a "Guild Engineer Salvager". The shadowed models one has a pickaxe, and another maybe a shoulder mounted mining laser. We may yet see the standard trooper? who knows!

No, people aren't assuming it's a standard trooper, we've been told it's a standard trooper in the reveal article;

...as you can see from even this basic trooper.

Right, looks like I didn't see that in the April 2nd article. I'm actually OK with the new model as a baseline... but we'll have to see where they go from here.

So do we think are these guys going to be team IOM ?

The earlier work suggest that's the case in terms of having tech priests, but GW is not beholden to that.

Unpopular opinion I expect...

Maybe the squat is currently a one off 3D printed and painted model, announced to excite the old nostalgia and keep disillusioned 40k players from drifting to Mantic's Fire Fight v2 release.
Much like square bases announcement tactic for the old world when Mantic moved to KoW v3?

I know in real terms Mantic is a minnow compared to the leviathan of GW, but being so geographically close and having staff that know each other, maybe makes it more like competition than it really is.

Unlikely. Whilst sculpting, printing and painting a 3D print can be reasonably fast, the lead time to cut, design moulds, produce moulds, order box art, ship box contents from China and then mass produce, pack and ship. All that is months of work.

Furthermore its big costs for GW to do on their scale so its not something they can just push into the release schedule on a whim. Even before Corona messed up their release pattern, right now I'd wager they are cutting releases just to keep some sense of order to the major ones (eg big edition releases) to keep things going.


So nope, I don't think this is a one model teaser that's designed to get us all fired up so GW can go away and make something. This model might well be a 3D print, but the moulds and such are likely already produced or in production and the box art designed, ordered and somewhere in the process of being printed/shipped around.

 Overread wrote:
Unlikely. Whilst sculpting, printing and painting a 3D print can be reasonably fast, the lead time to cut, design moulds, produce moulds, order box art, ship box contents from China and then mass produce, pack and ship. All that is months of work.

Furthermore its big costs for GW to do on their scale so its not something they can just push into the release schedule on a whim. Even before Corona messed up their release pattern, right now I'd wager they are cutting releases just to keep some sense of order to the major ones (eg big edition releases) to keep things going.


So nope, I don't think this is a one model teaser that's designed to get us all fired up so GW can go away and make something. This model might well be a 3D print, but the moulds and such are likely already produced or in production and the box art designed, ordered and somewhere in the process of being printed/shipped around.

Besides, they also showed off silhouettes of a few more.

and said the release is months away

and GW has shown of 3D printed models in promo-pics because the production model was not available when the pics were made

so the preview Squat being a 3D printed model to have something to show at the start of April does not contradict anything else

that the preview is shown early is unusual for GW not matter what, so the conclusion that someone decided to put it in as distraction months early is not far off
question is just, to distract the community from what, increased prices, bad rules, release delays, other companies?

Seems like it was released specifically for April fools day so they could do the is it a joke or not thing.

We've known Squats were on the horizon for quite a while, don't think this is a last minute thing thrown together.

The model being a 3-d print isn't significant I think as all the promo models are 3-d prints as it gives the studio time to get them painted and photographed for the codex/box art and magazine articles. Its definitely not just thrown together. One of the BL authors and 40k background writers said on twitter he was relieved they had been finally announced as he's been looking forward to taking about them for a long time.

 silverstu wrote:
The model being a 3-d print isn't significant I think as all the promo models are 3-d prints as it gives the studio time to get them painted and photographed for the codex/box art and magazine articles. Its definitely not just thrown together. One of the BL authors and 40k background writers said on twitter he was relieved they had been finally announced as he's been looking forward to taking about them for a long time.

Furthermore, I believe at least one person said that he finished painting the new Castellan Crowe model around two years before the official reveal?

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 silverstu wrote:
The model being a 3-d print isn't significant I think as all the promo models are 3-d prints as it gives the studio time to get them painted and photographed for the codex/box art and magazine articles. Its definitely not just thrown together. One of the BL authors and 40k background writers said on twitter he was relieved they had been finally announced as he's been looking forward to taking about them for a long time.

Furthermore, I believe at least one person said that he finished painting the new Castellan Crowe model around two years before the official reveal?

Yep -

gravitywell wrote:

The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us...

Maybe the space Vikings with bolters and copy-and-paste fantasy slayers were not a stumbling block then, but maybe they were. I think that seeing the unreleased models is a window into how they were playing with the appearance. What we know is they didn't move forward with it in 2nd, and they haven't moved forward with that now (yet?).

That all said, there may be new blood at GW now that does feel inspired and is rolling with it. Hopefully they do the Votann as dwarves justice. Though, this quote from April 10th has me a little worried they'll try and get too zany:

Don't forget the huge part of the equation that isn't mentioned: profitability. I assume there is some part of this release that is intended to capture an audience (market share) that otherwise isn't interested in 40k. That's why I think the "hard-sci fi" motif has potential, with just enough grimdark to make it fit the setting.

 Argive wrote:
So do we think are these guys going to be team IOM ?

The earlier work suggest that's the case in terms of having tech priests, but GW is not beholden to that.

I'm not sure what the split is, but the other camp (I'm in) wants them to be Xenos.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Unpopular opinion I expect...

Maybe the squat is currently a one off 3D printed and painted model, announced to excite the old nostalgia and keep disillusioned 40k players from drifting to Mantic's Fire Fight v2 release.
Much like square bases announcement tactic for the old world when Mantic moved to KoW v3?

I know in real terms Mantic is a minnow compared to the leviathan of GW, but being so geographically close and having staff that know each other, maybe makes it more like competition than it really is.

Except their article literally says it's a full army coming later in the year, and showed off a further 4 other sculpts blacked out, with obvious things such as mechanical arms and mohawks.

beast_gts wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 silverstu wrote:
The model being a 3-d print isn't significant I think as all the promo models are 3-d prints as it gives the studio time to get them painted and photographed for the codex/box art and magazine articles. Its definitely not just thrown together. One of the BL authors and 40k background writers said on twitter he was relieved they had been finally announced as he's been looking forward to taking about them for a long time.

Furthermore, I believe at least one person said that he finished painting the new Castellan Crowe model around two years before the official reveal?

Yep -

Spoiler:

If grey knights were all that scale/dimensions I would build me some of those. Shame.

 Togusa wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Unpopular opinion I expect...

Maybe the squat is currently a one off 3D printed and painted model, announced to excite the old nostalgia and keep disillusioned 40k players from drifting to Mantic's Fire Fight v2 release.
Much like square bases announcement tactic for the old world when Mantic moved to KoW v3?

I know in real terms Mantic is a minnow compared to the leviathan of GW, but being so geographically close and having staff that know each other, maybe makes it more like competition than it really is.

Except their article literally says it's a full army coming later in the year, and showed off a further 4 other sculpts blacked out, with obvious things such as mechanical arms and mohawks.

Where was this? I didn't see any silhouettes.