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 ImAGeek wrote:
I’m not a fan, I don’t think, but I like it quite a bit more in the same scheme as the other infantry (photo from Twitter):

Agreed, I think the paint scheme chosen for these models is a large factor in a lot of the feedback here. Different colour choices would be a big improvement.

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
I guess I must be a unicorn of sorts, because I like the idea of Dwarves in space, and I think that what GW have produced is a tasteful nod towards that archetype. The more that I look at all of the models shown so far, the more that I like them, honestly.

But I also think it's probably good to remember that the LoV are supposed to be more than just Dwarves in space. Among other things, they are a relatively "rational" faction, with a sound grasp of the technology they're using (and presumably the science behind it, also). Honestly, this is a pretty dwarfish characteristic, it seems to me - an evolution of the "master craftsman" archetype for a sci-fi setting, and specifically the 40k setting, where the biggest faction is characterized by a complete degeneration of scientific knowledge. Given that, it makes sense to me that their arms and armour would be functional first and foremost, with small gestures towards their culture.

Just my thoughts, though. Really liking the new Ernest Hemingway Guard.

...actually, the only thing that I don't like about the faction so far is the silly proprietary spelling. :p

Same, particularly the hover trike. My opinion of it has risen each time I go back to it, I was kinda eh on it originally.

This design is very good. The only thing that really bothered me is the head, which is why I photoshoped it out to see how it looks. This really needed a beard and a badass when they originally showed it off. I assume they have different head options in the kit. Sunglasses, beard, massive shotty. The combination of 1950s atom-punk cast metal that has complex curving planes and concave points combined with the almost post apocalypse feel of the the leather duster and big feth off shotgun. The shovel on the back for prospecting as they scout out new locations for mines. They knew exactly what they were doing painting it that green, making it reminiscent of both DAoT, atompunk and the kinds of post apocalypse robots that you see in Fallout. It gives it an almost old vibe while also feeling futuristic.

I really like their take on dwarves, as you said, they feel more rational. Like they functionally live inside the 40k universe first and foremost.





And chuck a monster carcass in the back after slaying it with the shotty to haul off and sell to the local system trader.

 xttz wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I’m not a fan, I don’t think, but I like it quite a bit more in the same scheme as the other infantry (photo from Twitter):

Agreed, I think the paint scheme chosen for these models is a large factor in a lot of the feedback here. Different colour choices would be a big improvement.

Yeah, whilst hospital greens w/labcoat is certainly a look, is it a good look?

That version of the Necromunda squats in deep red with a white stripe down the centreline was bold and impactful and probably pretty easy to do at scale with the new contrasts and washes. Maybe try that on the Votann?

 Albertorius wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, as much as I dislike Kharadons, they at least look distinct and you can tell they are meant to be dwarfs.

Here, they just look like short terran marines with a couple of decals slapped onto them. Very uninspiring and kind of bland.

I'll say it won't take the 3d modelling community more than 72 hours post official release/in hand to have variant metal bearded helmets up for sale/download.

...I mean...

Spoiler:

...yeah? ^^

Ooh, those are pretty. I like them a lot more than GW's models, but tastes differ.

Plenty about those renders I don't like, but they're extremely well (and quickly) executed alternatives. The tactical axe with the prybar attachments is wonderful.

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
I guess I must be a unicorn of sorts, because I like the idea of Dwarves in space, and I think that what GW have produced is a tasteful nod towards that archetype. The more that I look at all of the models shown so far, the more that I like them, honestly.

But I also think it's probably good to remember that the LoV are supposed to be more than just Dwarves in space. Among other things, they are a relatively "rational" faction, with a sound grasp of the technology they're using (and presumably the science behind it, also). Honestly, this is a pretty dwarfish characteristic, it seems to me - an evolution of the "master craftsman" archetype for a sci-fi setting, and specifically the 40k setting, where the biggest faction is characterized by a complete degeneration of scientific knowledge. Given that, it makes sense to me that their arms and armour would be functional first and foremost, with small gestures towards their culture.

Just my thoughts, though. Really liking the new Ernest Hemingway Guard.

...actually, the only thing that I don't like about the faction so far is the silly proprietary spelling. :p

I've not really seen many people say the fluff doesn't feel like dwarves in space. There's been the occasional "wow I love the lore because it's not dwarves in space!" which just feels like a desperate reactionary response to people saying they don't like the lack of grimdarkness but on a whole I've not seen much disagreement about the lore feeling like dwarves in space.

The problem with the lack of distinctive dwarfiness is in the models. If they weren't in dwarf bodies people would have a lot of trouble differentiating them from a 3D printed proxy marine army.

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
. Given that, it makes sense to me that their arms and armour would be functional first and foremost, with small gestures towards their culture.

And the problem is they don't even have "small gestures towards their culture". Whether you like it or not, the Dwarf aesthetic is the direction for the Leagues culture in terms of its look, and we've been told that lore-wise their heritage, culture, the Votann and Ancestors all are extremely important to them. That's great, in-line with what you'd expected of the Space Dwarfs they undeniably are meant to be.

But then we have models that don't actually show that well at all. Not even to the same extent as the Tau, Necrons or Genestealer Cults.

As I pointed out, Grendl Grendlsen has not been stated to be from the Leagues, albeit it is sort of implied. He has far more League-themed decoration (a whole 3 small Dwarf face icons in fairly reasonable places) than the Leagues basic infantry themselves do.

 Albertorius wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, as much as I dislike Kharadons, they at least look distinct and you can tell they are meant to be dwarfs.

Here, they just look like short terran marines with a couple of decals slapped onto them. Very uninspiring and kind of bland.

I'll say it won't take the 3d modelling community more than 72 hours post official release/in hand to have variant metal bearded helmets up for sale/download.

...I mean...

Spoiler:

...yeah? ^^

I like the Papiskels biker. I'd have preferred an option where it's more of a two wheels in the front hover trike to differentiate it from the official plastic kit. I had to check out the other offerings after you posted this and they're pretty awesome (especially the more body horror engineers!).

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

As I pointed out, Grendl Grendlsen has not been stated to be from the Leagues, albeit it is sort of implied. He has far more League-themed decoration (a whole 3 small Dwarf face icons in fairly reasonable places) than the Leagues basic infantry themselves do.

Not every random face is "League-themed decoration". Sometimes a face is just a face.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

As I pointed out, Grendl Grendlsen has not been stated to be from the Leagues, albeit it is sort of implied. He has far more League-themed decoration (a whole 3 small Dwarf face icons in fairly reasonable places) than the Leagues basic infantry themselves do.

Not every random face is "League-themed decoration". Sometimes a face is just a face.

Missing the point entirely. You are aware that the Leagues worship AI in the shape of Giant heads, that they have a Dwarf/Votann head as their faction icon, and even have it as decoration on their walls, and have the whole Ancestor reverence thing, right? A guy who hasn't even been said to actually be part of the Leagues includes more that's in-line with the sort of thing that would show the Leagues culture on the models than than they have themselves. Whether Grendls actually are that or not is irrelevant.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
. Given that, it makes sense to me that their arms and armour would be functional first and foremost, with small gestures towards their culture.

And the problem is they don't even have "small gestures towards their culture". Whether you like it or not, the Dwarf aesthetic is the direction for the Leagues culture in terms of its look, and we've been told that lore-wise their heritage, culture, the Votann and Ancestors all are extremely important to them. That's great, in-line with what you'd expected of the Space Dwarfs they undeniably are meant to be.

But then we have models that don't actually show that well at all. Not even to the same extent as the Tau, Necrons or Genestealer Cults.

As I pointed out, Grendl Grendlsen has not been stated to be from the Leagues, albeit it is sort of implied. He has far more League-themed decoration (a whole 3 small Dwarf face icons in fairly reasonable places) than the Leagues basic infantry themselves do.

If you looked at only eldar guardians, wraith guard and a bike would you get a sense of elf-ness? I don't think so - the visual richness of the range comes from the whole range- the Avatar, the Warlocks, the Farseer and the variety of the aspects. We have still only seen two units and one bike and not even all the options to those. We have seen no characters or any of the rest of the range. seeing these things in isolation also distorts the feel of the faction.
Also the original squats did not have large beards or ancestor runes/marks/masks other than the warlord and the exo suits [which also didn't have legs just feet].
Grendelson looks to me like a complete cliche which the big beard, ancestor faces and imperial weapons - its a throw back to an old idea to me. Again there are folks who love that look- they are very invested In the old school look, so these are bound to disappoint them.
The build of a model totally suggested its origins - ive got the new squat prospectors [which look a lot better in real life] and they have no ancestor markings or big beards and they definitely have a dwarf quality.
I get these didn't float float your boat and you were expecting something else but personally, as a dwarf collector fro years I'm delighted. They have done what I hoped and created a dwarf like culture in space which is exhibiting a sense of high tech capabilities. They are their own thing, the design queues referencing an early shared heritage with humanity without the baroque over stylings of dogged religion of the Imperium.
The criticism that they look like Terran marines is incredibly lazy - there are similarities yes because they both are humanoid figures with fitted sci-fi plate armour, they also both have shared heritage that the Terrans are an altered space marine design and the Votann have a shared tech heritage with the Imperium. But beyond that the armour designs are very different- even the bubble helmets are different - the Terrans have an astronaut type helm and the Kin have a heavy shield with a designed eye visor. The chest, leg and feet armour is a totally different design.

I like that GW did what they did with the Kharadron and took them in their own direction, imagining what a dwarf like culture would be in space, developed in isolation from humanity with their tech intact. My impression is that, yes some folks are disappointed they don't look "dwarf" enough and thats fine, a good few folk are very excited by them and I think they will do well. The Kharadron got a similar reaction when they arrived and they seem to be very popular.
we haven't seen everything and I'm not saying they might not massively drop the ball with the rest of the release but I'm pretty confident with what I've seen, especially with a different scheme and a little converting as all factions need, they will look brilliant and stand apart from other factions in 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

As I pointed out, Grendl Grendlsen has not been stated to be from the Leagues, albeit it is sort of implied. He has far more League-themed decoration (a whole 3 small Dwarf face icons in fairly reasonable places) than the Leagues basic infantry themselves do.

Not every random face is "League-themed decoration". Sometimes a face is just a face.

Missing the point entirely. You are aware that the Leagues worship AI in the shape of Giant heads, that they have a Dwarf/Votann head as their faction icon, and even have it as decoration on their walls, and have the whole Ancestor reverence thing, right? A guy who hasn't even been said to actually be part of the Leagues includes more that's in-line with the sort of thing that would show the Leagues culture on the models than than they have themselves. Whether Grendls actually are that or not is irrelevant.

You are missing the point that they are described as pragmatic and not superstitious so they aren't likely add lots of Votann icons to their armour the way imperium factions do. Plus the cog icon etc might be what represents specific Votann. The Ancestor faces could well pop up with the heroes or the larger vehicles. The art does seem to suggest a few heroes might have something similar to ancestor masks.

As someone who's pragmatic and not superstitious IRL, I find the lack of ornamentation to not be a major problem. If my unlikely theory about the dark secret of the Votann is correct, it'd even be pretty flavorful.

What dark secret? GW told us there ain't no dark secret, they big AI brains are just falling apart. Without them, they'd still be very noble and tolerant and technically advanced.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I’m not a fan, I don’t think, but I like it quite a bit more in the same scheme as the other infantry (photo from Twitter):

Yeah, the monocolor paint scheme they want with doesn't do any favor to the models.
Imagine an ultramarine all solid blue with no other colors.

 (HN) wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I’m not a fan, I don’t think, but I like it quite a bit more in the same scheme as the other infantry (photo from Twitter):

Yeah, the monocolor paint scheme they want with doesn't do any favor to the models.
Imagine an ultramarine all solid blue with no other colors.

You mean, like this one?

More I stare at these new Votann, less I like them. I like that they're high tech, but the massive shoulders & scify power armour makes them just short primaris marines. And I love primaris marines, but I don't think that's a good look for squats. Necromunda squats have far better dwarfy silhouette.

 Olthannon wrote:
With the fairly recent Necromunda Squat character releases (was that 2017 or something?), that was a clear design choice that placed them in the universe. So when the Votanni were being finalised, it was clear they had to make them look very different to the Squats.

That doesn't really make sens tho is you conciser the fact that one of the reason they are "bringing back the squats" (votann) is because of how well the squats they have sprinkled in Necromunda were received.
They nailed it that proof of concept and that's why they finally realized that the people memeing about the return of the squats for 3 decades may have been on something after all.

 Albertorius wrote:

...I mean...

Spoiler:

...yeah? ^^

Thos Cyberforge guys are honestly strictly superior to GW design.
I dont even like their armor (which is very close to GW's) but the dwarf heads and mele weapons suddenly make the unit work.

Yes that ultramarine is boring as hell in that scheme although the gold trim does lift it a little..

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

You mean, like this one?

Even worse than that, the marine here have a golden trims on the rim of the shoulders wich really help giving volumes to the thing. Imagine that same mini, but with blue trims and aquilla too.
Imagine a MK5 but without molecular bonds to ad details on the armor.

 (HN) wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

You mean, like this one?

Even worse than that, the marine here have a golden trims on the rim of the shoulders wich really help giving volumes to the thing. Imagine that same mini, but with blue trims and aquilla too.

So a Crimson Fist, got it.

 silverstu wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
. Given that, it makes sense to me that their arms and armour would be functional first and foremost, with small gestures towards their culture.

And the problem is they don't even have "small gestures towards their culture". Whether you like it or not, the Dwarf aesthetic is the direction for the Leagues culture in terms of its look, and we've been told that lore-wise their heritage, culture, the Votann and Ancestors all are extremely important to them. That's great, in-line with what you'd expected of the Space Dwarfs they undeniably are meant to be.

But then we have models that don't actually show that well at all. Not even to the same extent as the Tau, Necrons or Genestealer Cults.

As I pointed out, Grendl Grendlsen has not been stated to be from the Leagues, albeit it is sort of implied. He has far more League-themed decoration (a whole 3 small Dwarf face icons in fairly reasonable places) than the Leagues basic infantry themselves do.

the original squats did not have large beards or ancestor runes/marks/masks other than the warlord and the exo suits [which also didn't have legs just feet].

Doesn't have much relevance when lot of things back then were lacking in iconography outside of champions/elites. Space Marines and Imperial Guard didn't really have any on their basic infantry, either.

ive got the new squat prospectors [which look a lot better in real life] and they have no ancestor markings or big beards and they definitely have a dwarf quality.

You seem to have somehow completely missed the big bearded skull faction icon on their belt, then.

I get these didn't float float your boat and you were expecting something else but personally, as a dwarf collector fro years I'm delighted. They have done what I hoped and created a dwarf like culture in space which is exhibiting a sense of high tech capabilities. They are their own thing, the design queues referencing an early shared heritage with humanity without the baroque over stylings of dogged religion of the Imperium.
I like that GW did what they did with the Kharadron and took them in their own direction, imagining what a dwarf like culture would be in space, developed in isolation from humanity with their tech intact. My impression is that, yes some folks are disappointed they don't look "dwarf" enough and thats fine, a good few folk are very excited by them and I think they will do well. The Kharadron got a similar reaction when they arrived and they seem to be very popular.

You are missing the point that they are described as pragmatic and not superstitious so they aren't likely add lots of Votann icons to their armour the way imperium factions do. Plus the cog icon etc might be what represents specific Votann. The Ancestor faces could well pop up with the heroes or the larger vehicles. The art does seem to suggest a few heroes might have something similar to ancestor masks.

It's getting a little annoying how being disappointed with the lack of iconography and culture shown keeps getting strawmanned to "You want to stick icons and runes all over them armour in a heavy-handed way!" when it's about wanting small bits of the identity that has already been established as part of the Leagues in both their lore and artwork to be present throughout their range. The Leagues have been said to place a big importance on their culture, heritage, the ancestors and the Votann. So actually show that rather than just telling it. Utterly absurd how wanting at the very least their faction icon on the models in a reasonable place is far too much to some people.

And it's strange to use the "their pragmatic and not superstitious" to try and justify the lack of it when the Theyns are going around with big bulky animal banners over their heads, as well as the whole "Ancestors are always watching" thing.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

It's getting a little annoying how being disappointed with the lack of iconography and culture shown keeps getting strawmanned to "You want to stick icons and runes all over them armour in a heavy-handed way!" when it's about wanting small bits of the identity that has already been established as part of the Leagues in both their lore and artwork to be present throughout their range. The Leagues have been said to place a big importance on their culture, heritage, the ancestors and the Votann. So actually show that rather than just telling it. Utterly absurd how wanting at the very least their faction icon on the models in a reasonable place is far too much to some people.

And it's strange to use the "their pragmatic and not superstitious" to try and justify the lack of it when the Theyns are going around with big bulky animal banners over their heads, as well as the whole "Ancestors are always watching" thing.

First time on DakkaDakka?
You've presented a reasonable argument, which is your first mistake.

Second is wanting a rational debate on the Internet, especially DakkaDakka.

The problem being no faction motifs, small faction motifs and lots of motifs are all valid options

And 2 people looking at the same things can disagree where on that spectrum things lie

There's no real debate to be had. It's just a back and forth of subjectivity.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
What dark secret? GW told us there ain't no dark secret, they big AI brains are just falling apart. Without them, they'd still be very noble and tolerant and technically advanced.

It's just my pet theory I've been drafting up, based on the "Omelas provision", that anything that looks too Utopian must have some horrible, dark, festering terror at the heart of it to be in any way believable and sustainable. As I said, it's not particularly well supported by the facts on the table so far, but we'll see. There's still enough gaps in what we know about the Leagues. If my theory turns out not to be true after all, I will naturally be disappointed since I do consider myself a better writer than the simpletons GW employs, and as such, hold my ideas more highly than theirs. :-)

 silverstu wrote:


If you looked at only eldar guardians, wraith guard and a bike would you get a sense of elf-ness? I don't think so - the visual richness of the range comes from the whole range- the Avatar, the Warlocks, the Farseer and the variety of the aspects. We have still only seen two units and one bike and not even all the options to those. We have seen no characters or any of the rest of the range. seeing these things in isolation also distorts the feel of the faction.
Also the original squats did not have large beards or ancestor runes/marks/masks other than the warlord and the exo suits [which also didn't have legs just feet].
Grendelson looks to me like a complete cliche which the big beard, ancestor faces and imperial weapons - its a throw back to an old idea to me. Again there are folks who love that look- they are very invested In the old school look, so these are bound to disappoint them.
The build of a model totally suggested its origins - ive got the new squat prospectors [which look a lot better in real life] and they have no ancestor markings or big beards and they definitely have a dwarf quality.
I get these didn't float float your boat and you were expecting something else but personally, as a dwarf collector fro years I'm delighted. They have done what I hoped and created a dwarf like culture in space which is exhibiting a sense of high tech capabilities. They are their own thing, the design queues referencing an early shared heritage with humanity without the baroque over stylings of dogged religion of the Imperium.
The criticism that they look like Terran marines is incredibly lazy - there are similarities yes because they both are humanoid figures with fitted sci-fi plate armour, they also both have shared heritage that the Terrans are an altered space marine design and the Votann have a shared tech heritage with the Imperium. But beyond that the armour designs are very different- even the bubble helmets are different - the Terrans have an astronaut type helm and the Kin have a heavy shield with a designed eye visor. The chest, leg and feet armour is a totally different design.

I like that GW did what they did with the Kharadron and took them in their own direction, imagining what a dwarf like culture would be in space, developed in isolation from humanity with their tech intact. My impression is that, yes some folks are disappointed they don't look "dwarf" enough and thats fine, a good few folk are very excited by them and I think they will do well. The Kharadron got a similar reaction when they arrived and they seem to be very popular.
we haven't seen everything and I'm not saying they might not massively drop the ball with the rest of the release but I'm pretty confident with what I've seen, especially with a different scheme and a little converting as all factions need, they will look brilliant and stand apart from other factions in 40k.

Exactly. One of the most reasonable and level headed takes in this entire thread.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:


It's getting a little annoying how being disappointed with the lack of iconography and culture shown keeps getting strawmanned to "You want to stick icons and runes all over them armour in a heavy-handed way!" when it's about wanting small bits of the identity that has already been established as part of the Leagues in both their lore and artwork to be present throughout their range. The Leagues have been said to place a big importance on their culture, heritage, the ancestors and the Votann. So actually show that rather than just telling it. Utterly absurd how wanting at the very least their faction icon on the models in a reasonable place is far too much to some people.

And it's strange to use the "their pragmatic and not superstitious" to try and justify the lack of it when the Theyns are going around with big bulky animal banners over their heads, as well as the whole "Ancestors are always watching" thing.

You keep saying the lore should cause them to have more iconography Mentlegen... But should it?

"These hardy clone warriors form the core of the Kinhosts, and unlike the Adeptus Astartes, they are not bred solely for war. These soldiers are citizens drawn from the populace of the Holds, regardless of gender, job, or social role. They’re Kin who have undergone rigorous martial training, yes, but they also have fulfilling lives outside of war."

The Hearthkyn aren't like the incredibly zealous soldiers of the imperium who live for war, or have no time for anything else. Similarly with most xenos races.

They have families and lives outside of soldiering, they have actual careers in fields other than soldiering, and judging by their tool belt aesthetic it seems likely that they are huge on crafting and building things.

So they are part soldiers part crafters and familymen with other careers. That guy on the trike I photoshopped is not just a soldier, but a woodsman and big game hunter too, a frontiersman.

It's broadly true that crafters and part-time civilians and hunters etc outside of a military have less use or like for patriotic iconography than the pure zealous soldier fighting a righteous war.

This seems like a pretty good lore explanation honestly. And judging by how carefully and thought out this faction has been so far? I think this could be the intent.

The higher you rise in the military the less time you have for the civilian stuff, and the more draped in honour and prestige and iconography you become, the more you become a hardcore soldier like in other factions.

It really seems like the Votann functionally live inside the 40k universe first and foremost.




Considering how the models we have seen so far seem to be matching the concept art fairly closely, I'd assume that a general or named character is going to look very dwarfy.

Such as this guy:

 Olthannon wrote:


Second, which really ties into the first, when the original Squats were out they didn't sell well. Jes Goodwin and others really didn't like the range and when it came down to it they were nixed early on. Now obviously time has passed and actually some people do like the old Squats but that remains a small amount. Again, I think fear of a Squats release repeat will have led to the design shifting fairly far from "Dwarfy".

They sold more than several other lines. The leathercoats on bikes idea just didn't appeal to anybody on studio as squats had failed to evoke dwarf feel then.

So funnily enough not going dwarf style they are risking repeating what got squats squatted in the first place.

derpherp wrote:

Considering how the models we have seen so far seem to be matching the concept art fairly closely, I'd assume that a general or named character is going to look very dwarfy.

Such as this guy:

Hey, wait a minute, are the big bulky guys in the back supposed to be the Hearthkyn Exosuits? Why didn't they go with that design? I like it much better, the shoulderpads don't feel so out of place

It would be a mistake to read too much into similarities between an event that happened over 30 years ago, and the Leagues' potential sales potential today. Die Welt is nicht wie sie war.

Has it been said anywhere if the Einhyr Hearthguard are going to be along the lines of terminator equivalents rather than power armour equivalents?

tneva82 wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:


Second, which really ties into the first, when the original Squats were out they didn't sell well. Jes Goodwin and others really didn't like the range and when it came down to it they were nixed early on. Now obviously time has passed and actually some people do like the old Squats but that remains a small amount. Again, I think fear of a Squats release repeat will have led to the design shifting fairly far from "Dwarfy".

They sold more than several other lines. The leathercoats on bikes idea just didn't appeal to anybody on studio as squats had failed to evoke dwarf feel then.

So funnily enough not going dwarf style they are risking repeating what got squats squatted in the first place.

I've seen a lot people claim "They were removed for being fantasy Dwarfs in space!" when the reason they were removed was supposedly the opposite; the Silly bikers named Squats thing turned the proud, noble fantasy Dwarf archetype into a joke rather than being a serious take on it.

Aye, that explanation is in the Jervis letter - and I think it was either in that, or in a Q&A, where he confirmed that sales definitely weren't the reason for what happened to them.