Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I never bought anything that wasn't at least 3-4 years older.

I really don't understand why people fight to buy new releases, what's behind the hype about new releases on a specific faction I mean. It's not like, barring a few exceptions, they already have anything else and already painted so they finally got new plastic to paint from GW after a long wait. I can understand the hype about a wave of releases of something extremely old like sisters or eldar though.

I was thinking about the snaggas, since my main army is orks. Unless someone already has 10k points of painted orks or is enthusiast about how they look why on earth buying that models?

Toofast wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Voss wrote:

But every new sale of an ancient Tyranids model (cos GW have not exactly been kind to the faction) is a sort of cross against this idea that nothing sells outside of when its new and shiny.

Majority of sales when new =/= nothing sells when old.
Don't fall for rejecting logical reasoning.

Things sell well when new =/= the majority of sales for miniature kits happen in the first year. Don't fall for rejecting logical reasoning.

Except GW has flat out said this and would be risking charges for lying to investors by lying about something that can be verified with their sales data.

That would be exactly the sort of thing I've been looking for, can you provide a source?

 Blackie wrote:
I never bought anything that wasn't at least 3-4 years older.

I really don't understand why people fight to buy new releases, what's behind the hype about new releases on a specific faction I mean. It's not like, barring a few exceptions, they already have anything else and already painted so they finally got new plastic to paint from GW after a long wait. I can understand the hype about a wave of releases of something extremely old like sisters or eldar though.

I was thinking about the snaggas, since my main army is orks. Unless someone already has 10k points of painted orks or is enthusiast about how they look why on earth buying that models?

Because new or old, it is often the case that without the good stuff an army is borderline unplayable. Playing GK, as new player, without NDKs or power armoured models, because they are sold out, is not a fun expiriance to have. Probably not worth to start the army at all. And if you wait 2-3 month when the stuff is back in the stores, you may want to rethink buying the army at all, because it just got nerfed and other armies hard counter the one you wanted to play.

Tyel wrote:

Toofast wrote:
It's also human nature to like the new shiny thing. If you don't like it when it's new and shiny, you aren't going to suddenly like it 2-3 years later. Items like warhammer models, video games, and jordan shoes selling like hotcakes when they release and having a small trickle of sales a year later makes perfect sense if you spend 3 secs thinking about how human psychology shapes purchasing behavior.

But the issue is that the obsolescence factor in 40k doesn't exist as it does with other things.

For example, GW are just about to release a new Tyranid book. That makes various Tyranid units more desirable than they have ever been.
So... some people are probably going to buy those kits. (Indeed some already seem to be widely sold out.) Some people will decide today's the day to buy a new Tyranid Army. (And some people are doing this for everything in the range all the time.)

Looking at TV say - nothing stops people going and watching a TV show that came out 5-10 years ago (well - at least by the power of Netflix etc). But if everyone does so, that's in the face of every TV marketing budget on the planet trying to get them to watch stuff being released "today". That show is effectively buried by an avalanche of other content that is competing for your attention.

And this undoubtedly does apply to a degree to GW - and why they go for this codex cycle rather than releasing them all at once. It effective stirs the hype. But every new sale of an ancient Tyranids model (cos GW have not exactly been kind to the faction) is a sort of cross against this idea that nothing sells outside of when its new and shiny.

Tyel, you make some good points, but there are different ways to capture the zeitgeist of an era than to profit take on a perpetual hype cycle that is simply noise, spinning wheels that go nowhere. 40k originally was a bit of a parody on empire and the church, blind nationalism, speciesism, and exploited standing sci fi and fantasy tropes mixed with football hooligans and pre cyber punk post punk aesthetics… the parody aspect is something missing, and maybe today people are a bit too thin skinned for it but the point here is that this is one way to stay relevant and more substantially than codex creep and the new mega shiny super Killy alien monster to end them all which, next edition let’s be clear, will be nerfed to trash.

There is nothing parodic about w40k, if you are from my part of the world. But that is no wonder, a game writen in UK for mostly people in UK and US, is going to be rather specific in how it deals with anything.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Toofast wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Voss wrote:

But every new sale of an ancient Tyranids model (cos GW have not exactly been kind to the faction) is a sort of cross against this idea that nothing sells outside of when its new and shiny.

Majority of sales when new =/= nothing sells when old.
Don't fall for rejecting logical reasoning.

Things sell well when new =/= the majority of sales for miniature kits happen in the first year. Don't fall for rejecting logical reasoning.

Except GW has flat out said this and would be risking charges for lying to investors by lying about something that can be verified with their sales data.

That would be exactly the sort of thing I've been looking for, can you provide a source?

They've mentioned it in several earnings calls and showed sales data to support it in the chapterhouse case. I don't have voice recordings of it but it's not just a figment of our collective imaginations.

Karol wrote:
There is nothing parodic about w40k, if you are from my part of the world. But that is no wonder, a game writen in UK for mostly people in UK and US, is going to be rather specific in how it deals with anything.

Karol, yours remains a Christian country, with grand cathedrals and so on, no?

that is a tricky question. the originals got destroyed durning wars. some got rebuild, like those in big cities or got really lucky and not blown up like the ones in Cracow. ortodox and grecocatholic ones were destroyed in 1917, 1938, 1939-45 and then finished off durning operation vistula. Those that were left look nice, but they are no where near the size or wealth of gilding they had pre WWI.
Post 1945, communists didn't like churches to be build, post 1989 building a church became a sure way to become a deacon, so unless the people are really really poor, most catholic priests started to build ugly concret mini cathedral. They look like tall bunkers with stained glass. Some are litteral squares. Then there is the monumental architecture, we were forbiden to build durning 1776-1921 time, and later one we build other stuff and then we had WWII and more rebuilding. Now we build gigant Jesus status with military satallite dishes hidden by a burger king crown and of course we build the promised in 1791 Temple of Gods Providance. Of course then it was suppose to be a masonic temple, but now it is a catholic temple. Looks like a military rocket silos and is Huge. I have been in it twice and it is really big.

And if someone thinks I am overhyping or joking. google swiatynia opatrznosci narodowej or the statu of Jesus King of All Mankind in Świebodzin.

In more rural areas in the east we also have a lot of old churches, they are nice and small. often build by private owners and then nationalised.

Karol wrote:
that is a tricky question. the originals got destroyed durning wars. some got rebuild, like those in big countries. ortodox and grecocatholic ones were destroyed in 1938, 1939-45 and then finished off durning operation vistula. Those that were left look nice, but they are no where near the size or wealth of gilding they had pre WWI.
Post 1945, communists didn't like churches to be build, post 1989 building a church became a sure way to become a deacon, so unless the people are really really poor, most catholic priests started to build ugly concret mini cathedral. They look like tall bunkers with stained glass. Some are litteral squares. Then there is the monumental architecture, we were forbiden to build durning 1776-1921 time, and later one we build other stuff and then we had WWII and more rebuilding. Now we build gigant Jesus status with military satallite dishes hidden by a burger king crown and of course we build the promised in 1791 Temple of Gods Providance. Of course then it was suppose to be a masonic temple, but now it is a catholic temple. Looks like a military rocket silos and is Huge. I have been in it twice and it is really big.

And if someone thinks I am overhyping or joking. google swiatynia opatrznosci narodowej or the statu of Jesus King of All Mankind in Świebodzin.

In more rural areas in the east we also have a lot of old churches, they are nice and small. often build by private owners and then nationalised.

It's not a tricky question, Poland remains an Ultra-religious country when compared to the rest of the occident.

The tricky part is regarding to the "do you have cathedrals".
Also I live on the eastern border. We pick up TVs from other countries. When everyday news tell you that "today orcs did X, Y orc tanks were destroyed and Z orcs were killed" it generally gives you a different perspective on so called fiction. But I think I wrote about it before. I can litterally find places near me where the "crazy" w40k stuff was being done for real in span of less then 100-110 years.

I have no idea what happened to this thread. Polish orcs, ok.

 bullyboy wrote:
I have no idea what happened to this thread. Polish orcs, ok.

Just Karol baiting us with his low level comprehension

Karol wrote:
And if someone thinks I am overhyping or joking. google swiatynia opatrznosci narodowej or the statu of Jesus King of All Mankind in Świebodzin.

It looks like a planetary defence turret.

 jeff white wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Toofast wrote:
It's also human nature to like the new shiny thing. If you don't like it when it's new and shiny, you aren't going to suddenly like it 2-3 years later. Items like warhammer models, video games, and jordan shoes selling like hotcakes when they release and having a small trickle of sales a year later makes perfect sense if you spend 3 secs thinking about how human psychology shapes purchasing behavior.

But the issue is that the obsolescence factor in 40k doesn't exist as it does with other things.

For example, GW are just about to release a new Tyranid book. That makes various Tyranid units more desirable than they have ever been.
So... some people are probably going to buy those kits. (Indeed some already seem to be widely sold out.) Some people will decide today's the day to buy a new Tyranid Army. (And some people are doing this for everything in the range all the time.)

Looking at TV say - nothing stops people going and watching a TV show that came out 5-10 years ago (well - at least by the power of Netflix etc). But if everyone does so, that's in the face of every TV marketing budget on the planet trying to get them to watch stuff being released "today". That show is effectively buried by an avalanche of other content that is competing for your attention.

And this undoubtedly does apply to a degree to GW - and why they go for this codex cycle rather than releasing them all at once. It effective stirs the hype. But every new sale of an ancient Tyranids model (cos GW have not exactly been kind to the faction) is a sort of cross against this idea that nothing sells outside of when its new and shiny.

Tyel, you make some good points, but there are different ways to capture the zeitgeist of an era than to profit take on a perpetual hype cycle that is simply noise, spinning wheels that go nowhere. 40k originally was a bit of a parody on empire and the church, blind nationalism, speciesism, and exploited standing sci fi and fantasy tropes mixed with football hooligans and pre cyber punk post punk aesthetics… the parody aspect is something missing, and maybe today people are a bit too thin skinned for it but the point here is that this is one way to stay relevant and more substantially than codex creep and the new mega shiny super Killy alien monster to end them all which, next edition let’s be clear, will be nerfed to trash.

I always, ALWAYS hate the 'this generation is too thin skinned' thing when this comes up. Like...what era did you think had thicker skin? The era of married couples sleeping in separate beds on TV? The era of a black person being the star of the movie being a major political statement? The era where they put 'parental guidance' stickers on CDs because of swearing? The era where DnD was considered satanism?

What era was it, exactly, where moral guardians and people with too much time on their hands DIDN'T whine about SOMETHING ridiculous? Which, by the way, isn't even what the main problem with 40k as parody is.

The problem with 40k as parody isn't AT ALL that people will be """"offended"""" by the hilariously over the top religious extremism, fascism, blind nationalism, etc. The problem with 40k as parody today is that you can't make it ridiculous enough to stop certain...subsections of the population cheering it on completely unironically. We VERY RECENTLY had a major political figure referred to as 'God Emperor' completely unironically with absolutely ZERO of the nuance or understanding of the satirical nature of that title (i.e., that the god emperor of mankind faces eternal torment entombed on the golden throne, forced to watch as his once "great" empire collapses around him, entirely due to his own hubris. Or that he was just straight up a huge moron with social and emotional intelligence of a pinecone .)

ERJAK wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Yup, and the aggravating thing is that they have a system to go back and slap some fresh paint on the older books, but they haven't been using it for that very much. They could be using these dataslates to buff older codexes just as much as nerf the newer ones. They did it for Necrons and some of the 8th edition codexes in the first one, but then they decided to just use them to play Wack-a-Mole with overperforming tournament lists. And that's what I expect they'll do with this one too.

I think the problem is there has to be some general point reduction - and instead its a kind of random, lackluster review.

I feel the Necron changes for instance were good if you want to boost up Necrons. But there's something cynical about cutting destroyer & flayed one points (hello new kits) while leaving a range of other datasheets that clearly have issues. I'm sure someone somewhat wants to run Praetorians.

I guess the equivalent would be going "Sisters aren't cutting it any more, quick, 15-20% cuts on Sacresants and War Suits".

But it seems unclear on whether this will include points changes or not.

I was referring to the rules changes in the first dataslate: adding CORE to multiple Necron units, the change to DTTFE, etc. Actual rules changes, not just points drops. But agreed on the points in the CA, they're incredibly haphazard and random, seemingly. And usually not enough to make much of a difference.

That's true of EVERY point change in that CA. The nerfs were nonsensical in a world where custodes got drops at the same time and the buffs were COMPLETELY irrelevant (again, outside of pushing custodes from 65% winrate to 70%).

CA2022 is arguably the worst rules supplement GW has ever released. It did precisely the opposite of what it was supposedly intended to do (i.e. balance the game) and made you pay like 35$ for the priviledge.

The game as a whole would have been better off if that book had never been released.

No disagreement. That CA buffed armies/units that didn't need to be buffed, while simultaneously nerfing other armies/units that didn't need nerfing. It was pretty bad all around. Though I'd say it's in contention for "Worst CA" with the first CA of 9th (CA2020?), which IMO, only did one thing right: moving Dreadclaws to Dedicated Transports. But even that didn't last, as the Compendium moved them right back to FA, where they've stayed ever since.

Toofast wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Toofast wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Voss wrote:

But every new sale of an ancient Tyranids model (cos GW have not exactly been kind to the faction) is a sort of cross against this idea that nothing sells outside of when its new and shiny.

Majority of sales when new =/= nothing sells when old.
Don't fall for rejecting logical reasoning.

Things sell well when new =/= the majority of sales for miniature kits happen in the first year. Don't fall for rejecting logical reasoning.

Except GW has flat out said this and would be risking charges for lying to investors by lying about something that can be verified with their sales data.

That would be exactly the sort of thing I've been looking for, can you provide a source?

They've mentioned it in several earnings calls and showed sales data to support it in the chapterhouse case. I don't have voice recordings of it but it's not just a figment of our collective imaginations.

Theoretically, the chapter house case should still be public record right?

 oni wrote:
1st bring back the 4th mode of play from 8th edition, Competitive Play
2nd Introduce W40K's first ever banned & restricted list for Competitive Play
3rd Grab popcorn and watch the mob descend on GW.

Do you trust GW to get something like this right? They'd immediately ban Hive Tyrants and Hive Guard because they were too good in 8th (start of 8th, in the case of Tyrants).

If you don't think this generation is softer, nothing I say will change your mind. I know in a couple generations we went from 18 year olds storming the beaches at Normandy to 18 year olds calling it a hate crime if someone doesn't call them by the pronoun they made up yesterday. I have a couple friends who were DIs recently and they have endless stories about how soft recruits are now compared to when we were going through boot. I remember being forced to strip my bed and make my bed over and over again for 3 hours with a master chief screaming in my ear, skipping breakfast, because 1 guy out of 88 didn't get it right. Now you can't even raise your voice at a recruit. It's similar in schools, my wife is a teacher and went from HS down to preschool-K because she wasn't allowed to hold her students accountable for not doing their work or disrupting class. When my dad was going to school, the teachers used belts and rulers to keep kids in line. I've also noticed it in the work environment. I tell a 30+ year old "hey, you did this wrong because of x, y and z" and they say "oh my bad". I tell the same thing the same way to a 20 year old fresh out of school and they go to corporate and say that I'm singling them out and I should address concerns to all the employees at once so they don't feel like they're getting "picked on".

ERJAK wrote:
Theoretically, the chapter house case should still be public record right?

I went through the transcript, but I couldn't find any reference to year, drop, sales, etc that was relevant. I think there was a chart someone posted somewhere that inferred that info, but it isn't present in the transcript, of course.

ERJAK wrote:
I always, ALWAYS hate the 'this generation is too thin skinned' thing when this comes up. Like...what era did you think had thicker skin? The era of married couples sleeping in separate beds on TV? The era of a black person being the star of the movie being a major political statement? The era where they put 'parental guidance' stickers on CDs because of swearing? The era where DnD was considered satanism?

What era was it, exactly, where moral guardians and people with too much time on their hands DIDN'T whine about SOMETHING ridiculous? Which, by the way, isn't even what the main problem with 40k as parody is.

The problem with 40k as parody isn't AT ALL that people will be """"offended"""" by the hilariously over the top religious extremism, fascism, blind nationalism, etc. The problem with 40k as parody today is that you can't make it ridiculous enough to stop certain...subsections of the population cheering it on completely unironically. We VERY RECENTLY had a major political figure referred to as 'God Emperor' completely unironically with absolutely ZERO of the nuance or understanding of the satirical nature of that title (i.e., that the god emperor of mankind faces eternal torment entombed on the golden throne, forced to watch as his once "great" empire collapses around him, entirely due to his own hubris. Or that he was just straight up a huge moron with social and emotional intelligence of a pinecone .)

A complaint as old as Tacitus whinging that Rome had grown too soft and effeminate and was in decadence-induced decline (ironically, several hundred years before its peak), and again expressed all-too-familiarly throughout history.

I don't think the issue is that today's generation is too soft (which is nonsense), but I don't think it's that people don't recognize satire either. If anything, GW as a corporate entity has diluted the satirical elements in favor of more surface-level mass-market appeal (where you need 'good guys' to rally around). There isn't anything really satirical about the 9th Ed rulebook cover, any critical edge to imply that you are not meant to be rooting for the Renaissance angel (complete with halo). Throw in a bunch of writers who have done their best to justify the Imperium's idiocy in-universe, and marketing that unironically portrays Marines as noble crusading knights, and it's no surprise the franchise attracts unironic Imperium fans.

ERJAK wrote:
Theoretically, the chapter house case should still be public record right?

Yes, and I can find multiple references to a spreadsheet that apparently documented sales on specific kits year-by-year, but I cannot find any hard evidence to support the claim that kits make most of their money in the first year.

Hello everyone, the whole generational thing is best left to some OT thread rather than here. Thanks!

 Manchu wrote:
Hello everyone, the whole generational thing is best left to some OT thread rather than here. Thanks!

No kidding!

 bullyboy wrote:
I have no idea what happened to this thread. Polish orcs, ok.

Orc is netslang amongst eastern europeans (and now most of the rest of the world) for Russians.

Karol wrote:
There is nothing parodic about w40k, if you are from my part of the world. But that is no wonder, a game writen in UK for mostly people in UK and US, is going to be rather specific in how it deals with anything.

Just because you don't understand/can't recognize the parody doesn't mean it isn't (or wasn't) there.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Willfully obtuse framing of irrelevant trivia as evidence set the bar. Like, asking for evidence GW has changed after Kirby? That's borderline trolling.

Asking for evidence in this specific way? Nah. It's very relevant to this discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

You mean cherry pick to fit a narrative based on speculation.

Nah, you're the one infamous for the bad math arguments around here.

Hecaton wrote:
Nah, you're the one infamous for the bad math arguments around here.

I'm not sure someone who thinks GW nerfed orks to punish the lack of sales on Snaggas has a good logical foundation so I'm not surprised you feel that way.

Karol wrote:
There is nothing parodic about w40k, if you are from my part of the world.

Bruh at this point the idea that you're anything other than someone playing a part to make Poles into a laughingstock is wearing thin.

Are you gonna say something racist about Estonians or whoever again?

Hecaton wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Willfully obtuse framing of irrelevant trivia as evidence set the bar. Like, asking for evidence GW has changed after Kirby? That's borderline trolling.

Asking for evidence in this specific way? Nah. It's very relevant to this discussion.

The thread itself renders the differences self evident; it is discussing a quarterly balance update, released for free download, on the Warhammer community site. There is a mountain of evidence inherent to the topic, making such a request willfully obtuse at best. Personally I feel such a degree of bad faith breaks rule 1 outright, even.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Nah, you're the one infamous for the bad math arguments around here.

I'm not sure someone who thinks GW nerfed orks to punish the lack of sales on Snaggas has a good logical foundation so I'm not surprised you feel that way.

You missed my point. My point was that non-Snagga models were made worse in the codex to punish players for wanting to play with non-Snagga models prior to release. They made some buggies OP by accident, sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

The thread itself renders the differences self evident; it is discussing a quarterly balance update, released for free download, on the Warhammer community site. There is a mountain of evidence inherent to the topic, making such a request willfully obtuse at best. Personally I feel such a degree of bad faith breaks rule 1 outright, even.

Ooooh! Gw is releasing rules updates on their website! So beneficent on their part...

You can feel it breaks rule 1, but your feelings aren't reality.

Hecaton wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

You mean cherry pick to fit a narrative based on speculation.

Nah, you're the one infamous for the bad math arguments around here.

To his defense, those bad math arguments tend to be about comparing units or armies. Daedalus' posts which don't contain any math are far more valuable the people going full Karen here because they have been asked to provide proof for their claims.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:
My point was that non-Snagga models were made worse in the codex to punish players for wanting to play with non-Snagga models prior to release.

Uhm, is there any proof of that?

They surely nerfed boyz into the ground, but they also released new boyz at the same time, so that doesn't really fit your argument, does it?
Pretty much everything else, including models in direct competition with beastsnagga units, got a lot better since the last codex.

We also know that playtesters didn't test a single beastsnagga entry before the codex release, so it's hard to claim a coordinated effort to push them when there apparently has been no coordination whatsoever.