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 ClockworkZion wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Custodes.

Worst 9th book.

Well, that's a hot take all right. So hot I think it's melted.

It's gonna be after the overnerfs. Give it a couple more tournaments and watch.

So it's going to be worse than NECRONS? Worse than ORKS? Worse than GENESTEALER CULTS?

Easy there, you might cut yourself on the edge you're waving around there.

LOL okay maybe not Orks but I'll give it to Genestealer Cults and Necrons as they've been getting more and more buffs

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Toofast wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
Wraithbone is tougher than ceramite as far as I'm aware so fire dragons and dark reapers should be prime candidates for a similar buff right?

I think at this point it's safe to assume that game balance is separate from fluff since a bunch of flashlights can down a warlord titan

Given Grots have always been able to take down Terminators even with some difficulty. This has always been the case. Fluff influences game balance. It should not dictate it.

Umm… yeah, the fluff there was terminators getting over run, grots tugging at wires, twisting sensors, grots brains exploding into joints and gumming up parts, shooting point blank into crevices and vents, using weapons as powerful as lasguns, whereas lasguns from distance attacking a terminator scaled up in every way to the dimensions of a four story building ummm… a bit different.

Toofast wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
Wraithbone is tougher than ceramite as far as I'm aware so fire dragons and dark reapers should be prime candidates for a similar buff right?

I think at this point it's safe to assume that game balance is separate from fluff since a bunch of flashlights can down a warlord titan

Sorry, was just being facetious to make a point to certain power armour fanboys. I forgot to add a to make it more obvious.

 jeff white wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Toofast wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
Wraithbone is tougher than ceramite as far as I'm aware so fire dragons and dark reapers should be prime candidates for a similar buff right?

I think at this point it's safe to assume that game balance is separate from fluff since a bunch of flashlights can down a warlord titan

Given Grots have always been able to take down Terminators even with some difficulty. This has always been the case. Fluff influences game balance. It should not dictate it.

Umm… yeah, the fluff there was terminators getting over run, grots tugging at wires, twisting sensors, grots brains exploding into joints and gumming up parts, shooting point blank into crevices and vents, using weapons as powerful as lasguns, whereas lasguns from distance attacking a terminator scaled up in every way to the dimensions of a four story building ummm… a bit different.

There are some that would argue that given that a terminator managed to survive being stomped by a Titan in one of the books, but would not be supported by game balance as a result (3-7th had instant death mechanics should one have stomped them.. I am actually not clear on 8th and above rules for titans)


It's mostly that there is some aspect of fluff you can argue is unrealistic for the game balance. God knows Chaos has felt it for the longest time ever since they were unsure how to progress the CSM book forward since 3.5. The idea that you can shoot out the icon of a squad and they lose their marks was such a strange thing in 4th edition.

 bullyboy wrote:

Karol wrote:
.

And the spaming thing. Well try playing a limited option without spaming at 2000pts. Try harlequins or DE without transports, no meat mountain, harlequins without transports and no voids. Or GK without interceptors and NDKs. Does armies aren't just a bit worse, then the real deal. They are borderline unfun to play, and in some cases you risk getting tabled, if you run something else. Drone farm was a horrible, boring, but efficient list for tau in 8th. Yet every tau played it. Why? because no spaming shield drones, trying to play suits etc ment you had a really bad time.

Yeah, calling hard BS right here. Super easy to run harlies without spamming. HQs, jester, solitaire, troupes in transports, sky weavers, a couple voidweavers, done.
That’s the same with any army, including grey knights. Spamming is a conscious choice, not a forced result.

Not to mention that more than 3 voidweavers have always been illegal before this codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Custodes.

Worst 9th book.

Well, that's a hot take all right. So hot I think it's melted.

Yes, they're the ugliest army in 40k, both models wise and rules wise, not considering knights of course (they are on their own league of ugliness).

But they're certainly a top tier army.

 Blackie wrote:
Yes, they're the ugliest army in 40k, both models wise and rules wise, not considering knights of course (they are on their own league of ugliness).

I don't see what this wildly subjective comment on aesthetics has to do with anything...

 Blackie wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Karol wrote:
.

And the spaming thing. Well try playing a limited option without spaming at 2000pts. Try harlequins or DE without transports, no meat mountain, harlequins without transports and no voids. Or GK without interceptors and NDKs. Does armies aren't just a bit worse, then the real deal. They are borderline unfun to play, and in some cases you risk getting tabled, if you run something else. Drone farm was a horrible, boring, but efficient list for tau in 8th. Yet every tau played it. Why? because no spaming shield drones, trying to play suits etc ment you had a really bad time.

Yeah, calling hard BS right here. Super easy to run harlies without spamming. HQs, jester, solitaire, troupes in transports, sky weavers, a couple voidweavers, done.
That’s the same with any army, including grey knights. Spamming is a conscious choice, not a forced result.

Not to mention that more than 3 voidweavers have always been illegal before this codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Custodes.

Worst 9th book.

Well, that's a hot take all right. So hot I think it's melted.

Yes, they're the ugliest army in 40k, both models wise and rules wise, not considering knights of course (they are on their own league of ugliness).

But they're certainly a top tier army.

Did you miss the rules balance that kneecapped custodes?

stratigo wrote:


Did you miss the rules balance that kneecapped custodes?

Not at all, they needed a strong nerf. They just don't auto win now, but they're still top tiers. Just like tau and harlequins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Yes, they're the ugliest army in 40k, both models wise and rules wise, not considering knights of course (they are on their own league of ugliness).

I don't see what this wildly subjective comment on aesthetics has to do with anything...

Nothing to be honest, just a response to another subjective comment which I though it was agreeing with my feelings .

In what other sense did you mean "worst" 9th book?

If you can't say anything nice etc - but the take away of the last few months is just that Custodes players are utterly deluded about how powerful their book was.

 bullyboy wrote:


Yeah, calling hard BS right here. Super easy to run harlies without spamming. HQs, jester, solitaire, troupes in transports, sky weavers, a couple voidweavers, done.
That’s the same with any army, including grey knights. Spamming is a conscious choice, not a forced result.

So the difference between that and a tournament list is the 3 to 6 void weavers. As I said people either under estimate what bad armies play like, they are super protective of their own armies power or all of the above at the same time. As I said the difference between your army and a tournament lists is minimal. Which means the list would be weaker vs an optimised tournament list from other factions. BUT if I were to believe that does are only played in tournaments , we get a situation where johny space marine is going to have great fun with his non optimised marine army playing vs a 75-80% full power tournament harli list.


And yeah spamming is a concious choice, only other choice is to play open and pick units at random. Try playing GK without spamming NDKs and interceptors, or even a mix, each game your are going to be thinking why do I take a lets say a dreadnought, when for practicaly no extra points I can run a more deadly, faster, more resilient NDK? not enough points to run him, let cut those 200pts per 5 termintors from the list and replace them with a cheaper unit of strikes, which is point for point, more resilient, better in melee, better in shoting etc And when you do run the strikes, soon you find out that for again little extra points you can run interceptors instead of strikes and get the same thing, but double the movment. People don't spam stuff only if either they are somehow forced in to playing highlander or if their codex actually has multiple options valid per slot. But for many armies this ain't the case, and for armies like knights, custodes, GK, harlis etc even more so.

Not at all, they needed a strong nerf. They just don't auto win now, but they're still top tiers. Just like tau and harlequins.

But they weren't auto win. they had lower win rates then harlis, and had bad match ups in to tau, eldar and tyranids.

 Blackie wrote:

stratigo wrote:


Did you miss the rules balance that kneecapped custodes?

Not at all, they needed a strong nerf. They just don't auto win now, but they're still top tiers. Just like tau and harlequins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Yes, they're the ugliest army in 40k, both models wise and rules wise, not considering knights of course (they are on their own league of ugliness).

I don't see what this wildly subjective comment on aesthetics has to do with anything...

Nothing to be honest, just a response to another subjective comment which I though it was agreeing with my feelings .

In what other sense did you mean "worst" 9th book?

Lol, literally every competitive player in the game looked at the nerfs and went "These guys are out of the meta". There wasn't a single dissenting voice, everyone agrees they're done.

You: "They still top tier lul!"

They are not even mid tier now.

stratigo wrote:


Lol, literally every competitive player in the game looked at the nerfs and went "These guys are out of the meta". There wasn't a single dissenting voice, everyone agrees they're done.

You: "They still top tier lul!"

They are not even mid tier now.

Typical custodes (or SM) player response. If they can't autowin against at least most of the factions their army sucks. Really, what's better than custodes? Tau, Aeldari, Drukhari, Tyranids. Nothing else.

And I'd really like to know those competitive players, I bet they're the same ones who said orks were going to be OP due their T5 and Ap-1 choppas .

 Blackie wrote:

stratigo wrote:


Lol, literally every competitive player in the game looked at the nerfs and went "These guys are out of the meta". There wasn't a single dissenting voice, everyone agrees they're done.

You: "They still top tier lul!"

They are not even mid tier now.

Typical custodes (or SM) player response. If they can't autowin against at least most of the factions their army sucks. Really, what's better than custodes? Tau, Aeldari, Drukhari, Tyranids. Nothing else.

And I'd really like to know those competitive players, I bet they're the same ones who said orks were going to be OP due their T5 and Ap-1 choppas .

https://www.goonhammer.com/the-april-2022-40k-balance-dataslate-competitive-roundtable/

Scroll down to "Custodes: Fixed? Or did they go too far?".

Opinions vary from "a bit to far" to "way to far".

Richard and John like it... other players don't exist.

Roll on the weekend and we can find out.

I think Goonhammer's predictions on the meta so far in 2022 have not been great. But maybe they have more clarity on this.

Custodes were a 70%~ win rate faction except versus the 2022 codexes. They needed significant nerfs - not a minor knock and "don't worry, we expect everyone who isn't playing Custodes to run pointy ears, Tau and Tyranids."

To edit. The problem is - as we see throughout these discussions. At least for me, "Middle of the pack" is the desirable result of balance changes. Not "okay that 65% win rate is a bit much... we really think it should be something sensible. Like 60%". Such motivations are why DE were top tier for the best part of a year. GW thinking "oh don't worry, in a few months time we'll release books that make DE look tame by comparison" isn't great for the game.

Tyel wrote:
Roll on the weekend and we can find out.

I think Goonhammer's predictions on the meta so far in 2022 have not been great. But maybe they have more clarity on this.

Custodes were a 70%~ win rate faction except versus the 2022 codexes. They needed significant nerfs - not a minor knock and "don't worry, we expect everyone who isn't playing Custodes to run pointy ears, Tau and Tyranids."

To edit. The problem is - as we see throughout these discussions. At least for me, "Middle of the pack" is the desirable result of balance changes. Not "okay that 65% win rate is a bit much... we really think it should be something sensible. Like 60%". Such motivations are why DE were top tier for the best part of a year. GW thinking "oh don't worry, in a few months time we'll release books that make DE look tame by comparison" isn't great for the game.

Exactly right, all codexes should be as close to 50% as possible. It's never going to be possible to achieve perfect balance with so many overlapping/conflicting rules between armies and units but, ideally everyone should be in the 45-55% range.

As for external balance 45-55% is fine and that's hard enough to do.
Then balancing each codex internally is a whole different beast.

no other faction whines quite like Custodes. Yes its a big nerf, yes it might be a little more then was needed. But there is no way in hell Custodes is one of the worst books of 9th.

And trying to claim that Custodes are not auto-win because they had lower win rates then Harlequins is just hilarious. So because you lose vs 1, struggle with a 2nd and auto-win against almost everything else you didn't need to get slapped by a serious nerf?

Custodes are crybabies.

 kingheff wrote:

Toofast wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
Wraithbone is tougher than ceramite as far as I'm aware so fire dragons and dark reapers should be prime candidates for a similar buff right?

I think at this point it's safe to assume that game balance is separate from fluff since a bunch of flashlights can down a warlord titan

Sorry, was just being facetious to make a point to certain power armour fanboys. I forgot to add a to make it more obvious.

Fair point. Wraithbone is supposed to be stronger than Ceramite and adamantium, and despite the "heavy" Aspects being less bulky than a Marine, they still had the same save in previous editions to represent that. But they don't have the same save as Marine anymore, do they? Marines have a 3+, while the heavy Aspects have a 3+ 5++ now. So, drop the 5++ and give the heavy Aspects AoC, so they have the "same" save as a Marine again?

 Ordana wrote:
no other faction whines quite like Custodes. Yes its a big nerf, yes it might be a little more then was needed. But there is no way in hell Custodes is one of the worst books of 9th.

And trying to claim that Custodes are not auto-win because they had lower win rates then Harlequins is just hilarious. So because you lose vs 1, struggle with a 2nd and auto-win against almost everything else you didn't need to get slapped by a serious nerf?

Custodes are crybabies.

If you ain't first, you're last.

Sounds like something you'd put on a bumper sticker.

Edit: this is what competitive Warhammer has become, btw.

 Ordana wrote:
no other faction whines quite like Custodes. Yes its a big nerf, yes it might be a little more then was needed. But there is no way in hell Custodes is one of the worst books of 9th.

And trying to claim that Custodes are not auto-win because they had lower win rates then Harlequins is just hilarious. So because you lose vs 1, struggle with a 2nd and auto-win against almost everything else you didn't need to get slapped by a serious nerf?

Custodes are crybabies.

I wouldn't say all Custodes players are. Canhammer has competetive Custodes players and they are much more relaxed about it and mostly point at it making more builds look interesting in the book (one of them mentioned Solar Watch looking more interesting).

 Ordana wrote:
no other faction whines quite like Custodes.

Are there Custodes players in this thread "whining"?

There's Strat, who seems to have gone snooker loopy claiming that they're trash-tier, but who else is crying about the golden boys?

I for one was super glad we got nerfed. It was that or continue listening to all you theory crafters complain about how hard the competitive scene was taking it from the Golden Horrors. Now? Literally silence about the other elephants in the room.

I think, unpopular opinion as it is, we need to see how things pan out after the changes.
Until some actual data comes out it's all untested theories and speculation.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
no other faction whines quite like Custodes.

Are there Custodes players in this thread "whining"?

There's Strat, who seems to have gone snooker loopy claiming that they're trash-tier, but who else is crying about the golden boys?

Kind of more the forum (and beyond) than this thread specifically. But even before Harlequins, when Custodes were proudly standing there with Tau as "best faction" with a 65%~ win rate (above 70% taking out mirrors and games versus Tau) we had people going "no you can't nerf them, they'll be terrible if you change literally anything. I can just... just... about see my way to Trajann being 180~ points. Maybe. Really the problem though is that [literally every other character in the game] sucks."

By contrast, while I'm sure they are out there, I've not encountered "no, we needed near army-wide LOS ignoring shooting with infinite AP" from Tau players. Quite how badly they are impacted by the changes seems to be producing debate - with some players still going through Marines like they aren't there, others bouncing quite badly and others having a much more neutral and closer game. Which, realistically, is probably what you'd expect from a dice game where the odds are somewhat fair.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I for one was super glad we got nerfed. It was that or continue listening to all you theory crafters complain about how hard the competitive scene was taking it from the Golden Horrors. Now? Literally silence about the other elephants in the room.

The numbers spoke for themselves. Custodes winrate was oppressively high, only for GW to masterfully one-up themselves with Harlequins. The reason there's no complaining about specific factions being too strong right now is because we have no data. The changes haven't been used in enough tournaments yet to get a good idea of what they've done to the tournament meta, and the same can be said of Tyranids not being out long enough yet.

I know you love your kneejerk reactions and hyperbole, but blaming others for taking a more measured approach only leaves you looking even more ridiculous.

They updated the Balance Dataslate!

To re-add the Knight stuff from the last one.

Agreed. I remember Eihnlazer saying Custodes Terminators needed buffs

Haven't seen any defense of the cheese from Tau players either. More from the Harlequins players than Tau, but definitely less than Custodes.

Crusher and Levi Banned: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/XTEpZheWFGC2pWI3.pdf

Looks like the Balance Datasalte has been updated.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/zNYDiBPKGflEhGZp.pdf