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What if we brought back vehicle-facing and just changed the Toughness and Armor Save profile?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Blackclad Wayfarer





Philadelphia

Hey Dakka,

My group uses some homebrew rules for playing (Still using flamer templates, playing on 6x4, we leave vehicle wrecks on the table)


A few guys wanted to properly incorporate vehicle facing into the game and we thought having a system like this after some back and forth:

Front - All vehicles get +1 T
Sides - All vehicles get -1 T and -1 armor save
Rear - All vehicles get -2 T and -1 armor save
- Vehicles are all discounted 15 each points for Imperial Guard, 10 Points for Space Marines.



We also want to add an immobilization mechanic to this system but unsure how to. We want the player to declare "I want to disable/immobilize this tank"

Current idea:

Attacker can choose to target the tracks/systems/hover plates... if they do so a successful hit and wound will do a maximum of 1 damage and the vehicle roll 1D6. on a 1,2, or 3 its immobilized. On 4,5,6 no damage/no effect. It makes it risky to blow the tracks off a rhino when you can just as easily kill it

Has anyone else done anything similar?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/04/21 20:04:20


   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





I would up armor the front more, make the sides the current front bonus, but make the back weaker. Vehicles already kinda melt, so they need durability buffs in nearly every case.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Recent thread where I complain about not liking armor facing: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804347.page

That said, some notes:
Front - All vehicles get +1 T
Sides - All vehicles get -1 T and -1 armor save
Rear - All vehicles get -2 T and -1 armor save

Seems weird that your T values are all either lower or higher than the current T values. Why not just have side values be the current T of vehicles? Not that I think side armor being the current T value is a magic bullet or anything, but it seems odd that you'll always have this gap between side/rear armor values. Like a T7 rhino would have 9/8/6, but no 7.

Also note that this means you'll be making a lot of vehicles T8+. Toughness values 7, 8, and 9 are all significant breaking points. Most common anti-tank weapons are S8, and most medium-quality-lowish-quantity weapons (like autocannons) are S7. So under this proposal, a brightlance would go from reliably wounding a vehicle on a 3+ to only wounding on a 5+ (50% decrease to number of wounds). Plus, a weaker weapon like an autocannon or uncharged plasmagun would be wounding that rhino on the same numbers as the bright lance meaning the lance loses one of its main advantages over those weapons. You could raise the strength values of anti-tank weapons, but then you'll have the side-effect of making things like auto-cannons more effective against T4 infantry.

So heads up. You're dealing with a range of Toughness values that will have a lot of sprawling implications.


Attacker can choose to target the tracks/systems/hover plates... if they do so a successful hit and wound will do a maximum of 1 damage and the vehicle roll 1D6. on a 1,2, or 3 its immobilized. On 4,5,6 no damage/no effect. It makes it risky to blow the tracks off a rhino when you can just as easily kill it

Seems like this would be broken by low-damage weapons. I was already planning to toss some bolter or shuriken cannon shots at your tank. I may as well try to immobilize it and do the same damage as before. Ignoring D1 weapons, it still seems like you'd probably always try to immobilize when using D2 or D3 weapons. Especially if your anti-tank is scattered across multiple units. I'll happily toss plasma pot shots at your melee walker until the 50% chance to immobilize it (effectively taking it out of the fight) kicks in.

Something I've liked the idea of for a long time but haven't actually used:
* Get rid of the vehicle damage brackets.
* The first time a unit with 10+ wounds is reduced to half its starting health or less, it either becomes immobilized (Movement becomes 0" and it can't Advance or Charge for the rest of the game), weapon destroyed (loses a weapon of the attacker's choice for the rest of the game), or stunned (can't move, shoot, or fight until the end of the next player turn).
* Not sure if it would be better to determine which of those 3 happens with a die roll or by letting one of the players choose.
* Could simplify the weapon destroyed result by just changing its BS to 6+ for the rest of the game. Though this means that things like hell hounds would basically ignore it.
* Could make a stratagem that lets a player choose the damage result to represent the "called shot".

I've also pitched rules for targeting vehicle sub-systems in the past, but those were really meant for things like imperial knights. It might be too much bookkeeping if you had to do it for every tank in the army.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Blackclad Wayfarer





Philadelphia

Thanks! those are great points

   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




Wyldhunt wrote:
Recent thread where I complain about not liking armor facing: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804347.page

Spoiler:
That said, some notes:
Front - All vehicles get +1 T
Sides - All vehicles get -1 T and -1 armor save
Rear - All vehicles get -2 T and -1 armor save

Seems weird that your T values are all either lower or higher than the current T values. Why not just have side values be the current T of vehicles? Not that I think side armor being the current T value is a magic bullet or anything, but it seems odd that you'll always have this gap between side/rear armor values. Like a T7 rhino would have 9/8/6, but no 7.

Also note that this means you'll be making a lot of vehicles T8+. Toughness values 7, 8, and 9 are all significant breaking points. Most common anti-tank weapons are S8, and most medium-quality-lowish-quantity weapons (like autocannons) are S7. So under this proposal, a brightlance would go from reliably wounding a vehicle on a 3+ to only wounding on a 5+ (50% decrease to number of wounds). Plus, a weaker weapon like an autocannon or uncharged plasmagun would be wounding that rhino on the same numbers as the bright lance meaning the lance loses one of its main advantages over those weapons. You could raise the strength values of anti-tank weapons, but then you'll have the side-effect of making things like auto-cannons more effective against T4 infantry.

So heads up. You're dealing with a range of Toughness values that will have a lot of sprawling implications.


Attacker can choose to target the tracks/systems/hover plates... if they do so a successful hit and wound will do a maximum of 1 damage and the vehicle roll 1D6. on a 1,2, or 3 its immobilized. On 4,5,6 no damage/no effect. It makes it risky to blow the tracks off a rhino when you can just as easily kill it

Seems like this would be broken by low-damage weapons. I was already planning to toss some bolter or shuriken cannon shots at your tank. I may as well try to immobilize it and do the same damage as before. Ignoring D1 weapons, it still seems like you'd probably always try to immobilize when using D2 or D3 weapons. Especially if your anti-tank is scattered across multiple units. I'll happily toss plasma pot shots at your melee walker until the 50% chance to immobilize it (effectively taking it out of the fight) kicks in.

Something I've liked the idea of for a long time but haven't actually used:
* Get rid of the vehicle damage brackets.
* The first time a unit with 10+ wounds is reduced to half its starting health or less, it either becomes immobilized (Movement becomes 0" and it can't Advance or Charge for the rest of the game), weapon destroyed (loses a weapon of the attacker's choice for the rest of the game), or stunned (can't move, shoot, or fight until the end of the next player turn).
* Not sure if it would be better to determine which of those 3 happens with a die roll or by letting one of the players choose.
* Could simplify the weapon destroyed result by just changing its BS to 6+ for the rest of the game. Though this means that things like hell hounds would basically ignore it.
* Could make a stratagem that lets a player choose the damage result to represent the "called shot".

I've also pitched rules for targeting vehicle sub-systems in the past, but those were really meant for things like imperial knights. It might be too much bookkeeping if you had to do it for every tank in the army.


One, I don't think armor facings work in 40k for the simple reason that it's impossible to tell the exact front, rear, and side of a lot of vehicles. Tell me where you think the front of a Fire Prism ends and I bet it's different than where I do.

Two, it's weird that majority of proposed vehicle rules just serve to make vehicles much worse. The degradation chart we have now is extremely gentle and it's already a major contributing factor as to why only a handful of tanks/transports see any play. If you get immobilized/weapon destroyed/stunned at half points then no one would ever take a non-transport vehicle ever again. Either that or you're looking at about 35pts for a Leman Russ.


 
   
 
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