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With the return if Gulliman, honestly the next Primarch I’d love to return is Fulgrim (Clonegrim) with his successor chapter The Sons of Phoenix. This will also pave the way for Daemon Fulgrim and his Emperor’s Children to make a return. I know that people want Primarchs such as the Lion, Dorn, Leman etc. to return, but the setting would be more interesting if an once traitor Primarch returned as a Loyalist. No doubt that Fulgrim’s soul (warp god) returned to his perfectly cloned body, and I’m more interested in the Galaxy’s reaction to the return of Fulgrim and the Sons of the Phoenix rather than any of the Loyalist Primarchs. Had Fulgrim never picked up the dildo blade, he and his legion would’ve never fallen to Chaos, Fulgrim and the Emperor’s Children, the legion that was never meant to fall.

Imagine some serious battle happens between the forces of Chaos, Gulliman and his forces are having a hard time trying to repel the forces of Chaos and boom out of nowhere, Trazyn pops up and pulls a card out of his deck saying, “Come out Rising Phoenix” Fulgrim appears, and his sons are summoned leaving everyone one shocked on the battlefield.




Although it’s not confirmed, Chapters such as the Red Scorpions and Death Eagles are successor chapter of Emperor’s Children, coming from their pure gene seed to the original color scheme of the Death Eagles pink and white. Merging The Sons of the Phoenix, Red Scorpions and Death Eagles under the leadership of Fulgrim and repainting their armor to original Purple/Gold color and maybe even adding White to it, looks cool though.

The community seems to want more of the loyalist primarchs returned, I mean I get it, I understand, but a former traitor primarch returning as a loyalist would be a more fun read, also maybe it would cause the traitor primarchs to take action instead of meditate in their hidden chambers (don't wanna know what Fulgrim's doing though).

Thing is: the imperium would never, ever accept clonegrim given their levels of suspicion of anything potentially tainted.

"Hey, fabius bile cloned me" is not going to get you a hearing in the 'please don't execute me' stakes, much less a reborn Legion force.

It could be interesting but any force he gets is ultimately going to be renegades.

I dunno. Nice idea, certainly and I like the fabius bile book.


I think if I wanted a new primarch or equivalent rather than one of the obvious ones I'd prefer Ferrus Manus (as ghost ferrus) as an accompaniment to redoing Legion of the Damned, or else Sar Luther (who definitely is up and about!) as an accompaniment to redoing fallen.

Daemon Angron and Daemon Fulgrim are running around in the fluff all the time, they're much more likely and I'd prefer them, too.

Also I disagree about the notion EC weren't meant to fail, they're literally representing an aspect of Slaanesh, even before their fall. It’s not great writing to blame the Daemon sword, but them falling was not surprising given what they are, just like World Eaters and Death Guard.

Well it's not that hard to figure out which legions emperor wanted to fight vs what when astartes purge was meant to happen. Everything did not go according to his plan there. So yeah EC wasn't that much meant to fall but even emperor makes mistakes.

Is there a reason that Fulgrim in the OP appears to be a Sanguinius in purple armour?

I like the idea that some chapters have genetic material from the traitor legions, it gives rise to questions about the nature of the heresy and makes for interesting plots in narrative campaigns.

However I wouldn't want to see fallen primarchs or their clones switching sides. I think that's cool if you want to run it as a narrative campaign but more generally I don't think it's good for the game.

There's always a tension in the rules between the loyalists and the chaos marines, that would be even worse if you had two near identical special characters where one comes off worse on the table top.

I'd like to see representations of Angron and Fulgrim in 40k now that the primarch flood gates are well and truly open. I'm not sure how I feel about other loyalist characters returning (even as a white scars player).

locarno24 wrote:
Thing is: the imperium would never, ever accept clonegrim given their levels of suspicion of anything potentially tainted.

"Hey, fabius bile cloned me" is not going to get you a hearing in the 'please don't execute me' stakes, much less a reborn Legion force.

It could be interesting but any force he gets is ultimately going to be renegades.

I dunno. Nice idea, certainly and I like the fabius bile book.


I think if I wanted a new primarch or equivalent rather than one of the obvious ones I'd prefer Ferrus Manus (as ghost ferrus) as an accompaniment to redoing Legion of the Damned, or else Sar Luther (who definitely is up and about!) as an accompaniment to redoing fallen.

I think Gulliman would accept Fulgrim because he's still his brother, Gulliman was saddened to see Mortarion corrupted and still called him brother. Also I don't think that Clonegrim is tainted even though the Imperium would doubt him, under the orders of Gulliman, Fulgrim and his legion would be under protection, some will accept him but others will still despise him, especially the Iron Hands.

There are tons of videos on YT covering Clonegrim's return, and that it would be epic, especially a fight between Clonegrim and Daemon Fulgrim. Daemon Fulgrim is just a walking snake corpse who no longer posses his soul (warp god), it's a fact that the soul returned to the perfect clone, to reunite with his body becoming one again.

I would also like to see Ferrus Manus return as head leader of the Legion of the Damned along with Clonegrim.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Daemon Angron and Daemon Fulgrim are running around in the fluff all the time, they're much more likely and I'd prefer them, too.

Also I disagree about the notion EC weren't meant to fail, they're literally representing an aspect of Slaanesh, even before their fall. It’s not great writing to blame the Daemon sword, but them falling was not surprising given what they are, just like World Eaters and Death Guard.

IDK man but haven't heard anything about Fulgrim running around in the lore, the most active one is Mortarion followed by Magnus and Angron.

I'm not blaming the writing, I'm just saying that Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children's fate was sealed when they took the Laer Blade. Them falling was because of the Laer Blade, had Fulgrim not picked up the sword, they would've never fallen considering how loyal Fulgrim was and the Emperor's Children. Replace Fulgrim with any Primarch and their legion and it still would've been the same unless you're Logan Grimmnar and Kaldor Draigo.

Well the traitor Primarchs and their legions were established way before the HH books and it's evident that they represent an aspect of each Chaos God. However it's evident that Fulgrim, Magnus and Mortarion would've never betrayed the Emperor, except Angron because he's badly written. Mortarion got set up by Typhus and he had no choice but to pledge himself to Nurgle, Magnus is a bit complicated but I'd still say he did nothing wrong, Fulgrim picked up the Laer and that was it.

tneva82 wrote:
Well it's not that hard to figure out which legions emperor wanted to fight vs what when astartes purge was meant to happen. Everything did not go according to his plan there. So yeah EC wasn't that much meant to fall but even emperor makes mistakes.

I honestly do know about this, but it's theorized that the Emperor planned the HH. Either that or he did make a mistake.

The Black Adder wrote:
Is there a reason that Fulgrim in the OP appears to be a Sanguinius in purple armour?

I like the idea that some chapters have genetic material from the traitor legions, it gives rise to questions about the nature of the heresy and makes for interesting plots in narrative campaigns.

However I wouldn't want to see fallen primarchs or their clones switching sides. I think that's cool if you want to run it as a narrative campaign but more generally I don't think it's good for the game.

There's always a tension in the rules between the loyalists and the chaos marines, that would be even worse if you had two near identical special characters where one comes off worse on the table top.

I'd like to see representations of Angron and Fulgrim in 40k now that the primarch flood gates are well and truly open. I'm not sure how I feel about other loyalist characters returning (even as a white scars player).

Well Clonegrim has been established so many want to see his return including me. Even if the other traitor primarchs would be cloned, their souls (warp gods) are lost, consumed by the Chaos Gods so the narrative cannot be established. Angron is lost, Magnus noble shard was used to create Janus, no return for him either, Mortarion as well. Unless the Emperor can return their souls by force from the Chaos Gods, they cannot be redeemed. At least I find it possible, let's take the Eldar as an example, their souls experience eternal suffering in the hands of Slaanesh, if Ynnead destroys Slaanesh, the Eldar souls would be free, so the Emperor could do something similar or at least trick the Gods so he can have his sons souls back, he is after all the Anathema.

Also about the image. Well Fulgrim had wings like Sanguinius, he is a after a Phoenix depicted with wings. The image is from the Lionel Heresy, if the traitor Primarchs being loyalist.

Mortarion turned against the Emperor because of several reasons. He fought for freedom and realized the Emperor is a dictator. He hated psykers and realized the Emperor, despite Nicea, wanted to use the Warp. The Emperor also robbed him of his revenge against his "father" at their very first meeting. So if you ask me Mortarion never was really loyal towards the Emperor, he merely did what he was supposed to do.

The Emperor's Children strived for perfection in all things, that alone would have made them turn to Slaanesh eventually. It's actually one of the more interesting facets of CSM if you ask me, that with the EC the "best" of the Legions turned to Chaos. World Eaters and Death Guard were poor bastards, their way from Loyalists to CSM wasn't that far and they were doomed from the beginning, but Emperor's Children were Icarus that got burned by the Sun.

Also, I admit I've never heard about "Clonegrim" before that thread, but Daemon Fulgrim turned up on several occasions since 8th edition at least.

Clonegrim sits snug in a pokeball on Trazyn planet after Fabius Bile sold the pure fulgrim son for EC gene seed.

As Cortez mentions, Mortarion was never loyal. He wasn't up for the whole Nurgle thing true, but he never jived with the Imperium either.

I think it's a neat idea for Clonegrim to come back as an official loyalist. HOWEVER while I don't think it's impossible, I think it's going to be very hard to write convincingly. There is a lot of reason to believe that not even Rob's protection would be able to save him once word got out. The number of Inquisitors that would be after him, plus the Iron Hands, likely others like Black Templars, Gman's not going to be able to keep them all at bay.

It would make one hell of a tragic story though. He comes back, completely loyal and is executed just because of who he is and what was done in the past.

The only way I could see him really taking part would be anonymously. Most if not all of the images and monuments of the traitors have been destroyed, and the Space Marines often just go do their own thing anyway. It wouldn't be easy to sus him out if he kept his head down. Cawl would be down to make Primaris from Fulgrim gene seed (and arguably is already doing so) to give him his own chapter. So long as he keeps a reasonably low profile, it's not like anyone is going to point a finger at him and say "you look an awful lot like the guy who turned into a demon 10,000 years ago, you some kinda clone or something?"

There is some solid potential with this story line. So long as they don't just hand wave him back into the limelight and everyone just kinda goes with it, that would suck.

I must confess I hadn't heard of Clonegrim prior to today. I agree his return to the Imperium is likely to result to result in his swift execution and also that only anonymity would keep him safe. I think that means keeping him well away from various significant characters who are still knocking about from the heresy or who would otherwise recognise him.

I know there are all sorts of weird primarch powers and Fulgrim might posses some that would allow him conceal himself from most people but there are going to be certain characters that can see through whatever glamour he's able to shroud himself behind. It wold also be very difficult for him to conceal his nature on the battlefield. The prowess of a primarch is going to be hard to miss!

Regarding his appearance: I see, so the image with angelic wings is an alt-history Fulgrim. I understand the phoenix imagery, but did Fulgrim have wings prior to daemon-hood? As I noted I thought that was a unique trait of Sanguinius among the primarchs.

If he didn't have wings prior to daemon-hood, then surely a clone wouldn't have wings and would therefore appear more like the forgeworld model depicts him.

(That Horus is one hell of a big boy!)

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Mortarion turned against the Emperor because of several reasons. He fought for freedom and realized the Emperor is a dictator. He hated psykers and realized the Emperor, despite Nicea, wanted to use the Warp. The Emperor also robbed him of his revenge against his "father" at their very first meeting. So if you ask me Mortarion never was really loyal towards the Emperor, he merely did what he was supposed to do.

The Emperor's Children strived for perfection in all things, that alone would have made them turn to Slaanesh eventually. It's actually one of the more interesting facets of CSM if you ask me, that with the EC the "best" of the Legions turned to Chaos. World Eaters and Death Guard were poor bastards, their way from Loyalists to CSM wasn't that far and they were doomed from the beginning, but Emperor's Children were Icarus that got burned by the Sun.

Also, I admit I've never heard about "Clonegrim" before that thread, but Daemon Fulgrim turned up on several occasions since 8th edition at least.

You are absolutely right about Mortarion, I just didn't mention that part, he was never loyal to the Emperor (well because the Big E was a dick), what we can both agree on is that Mortarion would've never turned to Chaos had Typhus not set up everything to turn the Death Guard into worship of Nurgle.

I cannot agree on Fulgrim and the EC on that part. Maybe certain characters would've turned to Slaanesh just like Erebus and Typhus, but not Fulgrim alone and majority of the legion. A lot of W40K YouTuber's have covered this topic, I mean I share the same thoughts and opinion as them on Fulgrim and the EC. I cannot say about the Death Guard because I don't know much about them as a legion, but the World Eaters were doomed when Angron forcefully implemented the Butchers Nails, their fall was inevitable.

I'm surprised that users here haven't heard about Clonegrim till now. The thing with Clonegrim is that his soul returned to his perfectly cloned body and is aware what he has done and regrets it deeply.

Karol wrote:
Clonegrim sits snug in a pokeball on Trazyn planet after Fabius Bile sold the pure fulgrim son for EC gene seed.

That's what I mentioned in my OP. I just wish Trazyn pops up and releases Fulgrim.

 Tawnis wrote:
As Cortez mentions, Mortarion was never loyal. He wasn't up for the whole Nurgle thing true, but he never jived with the Imperium either.

I think it's a neat idea for Clonegrim to come back as an official loyalist. HOWEVER while I don't think it's impossible, I think it's going to be very hard to write convincingly. There is a lot of reason to believe that not even Rob's protection would be able to save him once word got out. The number of Inquisitors that would be after him, plus the Iron Hands, likely others like Black Templars, Gman's not going to be able to keep them all at bay.

It would make one hell of a tragic story though. He comes back, completely loyal and is executed just because of who he is and what was done in the past.

The only way I could see him really taking part would be anonymously. Most if not all of the images and monuments of the traitors have been destroyed, and the Space Marines often just go do their own thing anyway. It wouldn't be easy to sus him out if he kept his head down. Cawl would be down to make Primaris from Fulgrim gene seed (and arguably is already doing so) to give him his own chapter. So long as he keeps a reasonably low profile, it's not like anyone is going to point a finger at him and say "you look an awful lot like the guy who turned into a demon 10,000 years ago, you some kinda clone or something?"

There is some solid potential with this story line. So long as they don't just hand wave him back into the limelight and everyone just kinda goes with it, that would suck.

The writers can find a way around to put him and his legion in the story even if it's anonymously I'm up for it. I know many would be after him, but I don't think they will be able to kill a Primarch, considering Gman wiped the floor with CSM when he got resurrected. So even if the Inquisition went after him and the Black Templars, they would fail at the end of the day. The only ones that would pose a threat would be the Iron Hands. And the only way to stop chasing Clonegrim and his legion would be with the intro of Ferrus Manus as the head of the Legion of the Damned and forgiving Fulgrim for what he did, bringing peace between the IH and EC.

The Black Adder wrote:
I must confess I hadn't heard of Clonegrim prior to today. I agree his return to the Imperium is likely to result to result in his swift execution and also that only anonymity would keep him safe. I think that means keeping him well away from various significant characters who are still knocking about from the heresy or who would otherwise recognise him.

I know there are all sorts of weird primarch powers and Fulgrim might posses some that would allow him conceal himself from most people but there are going to be certain characters that can see through whatever glamour he's able to shroud himself behind. It wold also be very difficult for him to conceal his nature on the battlefield. The prowess of a primarch is going to be hard to miss!

Regarding his appearance: I see, so the image with angelic wings is an alt-history Fulgrim. I understand the phoenix imagery, but did Fulgrim have wings prior to daemon-hood? As I noted I thought that was a unique trait of Sanguinius among the primarchs.

If he didn't have wings prior to daemon-hood, then surely a clone wouldn't have wings and would therefore appear more like the forgeworld model depicts him.

(That Horus is one hell of a big boy!)

I posted the videos you can check them about Clonegrim.

He's return would cause a lot of anger, but I don't think he would be executed, even if he did work anonymously, the only one who can save Fulgrim from the Imperium chasing him is non other than Ferrus Manus himself.

I honestly checked imagery but no unfortunately Fulgrim never possessed wings, but it does look epic if you ask me. It suits him really well.

Too bad, Angron is more or less confirmed to be up next.

Btw., Fulgrim was the one that killed Guilliman in the first place. That alone would make it hard to return for a "loyal" Fulgrim, as the only pragmatic, not religious fanatic guy in the Imperium, that also bears the most power, so the one that might be in a position to redeem him, is the one who got killed by Fulgrim

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Btw., Fulgrim was the one that killed Guilliman in the first place. That alone would make it hard to return for a "loyal" Fulgrim, as the only pragmatic, not religious fanatic guy in the Imperium, that also bears the most power, so the one that might be in a position to redeem him, is the one who got killed by Fulgrim

Or they could retcon the retcon and put it back into a Space Ork warlord.

Breton wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Btw., Fulgrim was the one that killed Guilliman in the first place. That alone would make it hard to return for a "loyal" Fulgrim, as the only pragmatic, not religious fanatic guy in the Imperium, that also bears the most power, so the one that might be in a position to redeem him, is the one who got killed by Fulgrim

Or they could retcon the retcon and put it back into a Space Ork warlord.

Dangerous talk there....

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Btw., Fulgrim was the one that killed Guilliman in the first place. That alone would make it hard to return for a "loyal" Fulgrim, as the only pragmatic, not religious fanatic guy in the Imperium, that also bears the most power, so the one that might be in a position to redeem him, is the one who got killed by Fulgrim

We won't know Gman's reaction to Fulgrim other than shock. The Fulgrim before the Laer was gone when Gman fought him, whatever Gman fought and will fight again, isn't the OG Fulgrim but a corpse stuffed with the powers of Slaanesh. I'm surprised the hate Fulgrim gets here as a Loyalist, I hate Fulgrim and the EC after their fall to Chaos, there's no denying his fall to Slaanesh made him a dick, but the Fulgrim before the fall was even more humane (sure he had an inflated ego but all of the Primarchs have it) than Vulkan. The EC and Salamanders are the ones that cared about humans compare to the other Legions. It's a shame the EC and Salamanders never met.

Gman would be happy to see his brother before his corruption the way he was originally, it is obvious that Gman is longing for his brothers, the most obvious was when he confronted Mortarion. Even if he gets sudden emotions of anger of what happened, I think that after a deep talk between the two brothers Gman will forgive Fulgrim.

Breton wrote:
Or they could retcon the retcon and put it back into a Space Ork warlord.

There's no reason to recton to have him on the battlefield. There's already a setup, and we can see that it's connected with the mythology of the Phoenix itself, that from the ashes Fulgrim will arise. If Clonegrim was an ordinary clone just like the rest of the clones Fabius created, Trazyn would've never taken him in his deck of cards. I bet my money on that Trazyn is keeping Fulgrims presence unknown to the Emperor and the rest of the Primarchs and Gods, considering the Emperor could sense all his kids throughout the galaxy before the warp storms.

I wouldn't want to see a loyalist Fulgrim. He was the prime example of seeking perfection and the "only" legion initially to bear the Imperial Aquila.

And we found out how that went.

He is possibly the greatest hope for the Imeprium yet its greatest failure.

The Fulgrim clone was brought in by the Fabius Bile series by Josh Reynolds who sadly doesn't write for BL anymore. A lot of concepts he introduced in his books likely won't ever see the light of day in 40k-related events.
Also, that clone is the property of one Trazyn the Infinite and he doesn't share.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Too bad, Angron is more or less confirmed to be up next.

This. With WE getting a codex this edition Angron is going to be a centre-piece model.

With EC still in the CSM codex I doubt we'd see Fulgrim this edition. Maybe in 10th we might see EC become a standalone faction. Edition timeline kinda backs that up as well:

- 7th edition: Thousand Sons
- 8th edition: Deathguard
- 9th edition: World Eaters
- 10th edition: Emperors Children

GW seem to like making a new sub-faction codex for each major legion every edition. Maybe 11th we could have a codex for Alpha or Iron Warriors.